DeafThunder

Rods: The difference ?

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DeafThunder    166

John Barresi, if I posted it in the wrong discussion ... please do move it to proper discussion

 

both are 3 wrap rods ... but question : one is partly green labeled ... is there a difference between these 2 rods ?

PHOTO_20160430_165947.jpg

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hyzakite    183

It looks like it could be part of a Kevlar wrap like on the green race rods (tubes). I can't depect from the picture if the green is part of the tube or part of the label. But in either case there is a difference between the 2, one has green the other doesn't. Nothing to stop placing an order over.

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DeafThunder    166
1 hour ago, hyzakite said:

It looks like it could be part of a Kevlar wrap like on the green race rods (tubes). I can't depect from the picture if the green is part of the tube or part of the label. But in either case there is a difference between the 2, one has green the other doesn't. Nothing to stop placing an order over.

the green is only showing next to the label on either side ... both rods are BLACK ... click on the image to enlarge and notice the bottom rod is partly green on either side of that label (3 feathers, 3 wrap, ultra light) ...

 

... why is there partly green just alittle bit there and there, but not covering up entirely rod ? 

That is what I am wondering about.

 

 

HA ! (sarcastic), half 3 wrap rod and half green racing rod ?

well, more like 9/10th 3 wrap rod and 1/10th green racing rod ...

^^^ sorry, that was silly ...

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makatakam    1,477

They are both 3-wrap. That's really all there is to it. Even if there is a difference, it is probably so slight that even JB couldn't feel the difference in performance.

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dragonfish    377

The green is not part of the tube, it is over the tube.  Not sure I would describe it as part of the label either though.  More like, tube, green, label.  Unfortunately I have no idea what it's purpose is either.  I'm not even sure if you could specify one or the other in an order.  It might just be a manufacturing change and they're not really different.  The one set I have that has the green has so far only been flown in one kite that has slightly different flight characteristics anyway (Shook mesh), so I can't give any comments regarding a direct comparison.  

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DeafThunder    166

I figured it's the same ... because I bend it alittle ... same result ... unlikely like the green racing frame ... I had to make sure, so I asked ... thanks for the answers :)

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hyzakite    183

I just opened a box with a newer rev in it, the 2 tubes I looked at also has the 4" Kevlar wrap over the black wrap, the green wraps are very close to center point, not exact but close enough, must be something new at rev. I guess I would call it 3-4-3 wrap new and improved ultra light.

If someone says wow that's some nice flying, I can tell them, that's because I have three forty threes in it :lol: 

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Wayne Dowler    1,435

The green stripes are just part of the new labeling. There does seem to be either a change or ? in the manufacturing. The green label corresponds with that change. Diamond rods and race rods (not green race) appear to be most affected. Doesn't seem to affect the "wrap" rods. Just not sure what is the cause of the change, but flex and strength are different. Both break much more readily and flex differently. Those of us that use them a lot, noticed this right away.

Again, the "wrap" rods and green race rods do not seem affected, only the black race and diamonds.

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hyzakite    183

I just looked at the rod again and the silver label seems to be able to be peeled off at its seam whereas the green wrap seems to be under the resin. Also the seam of the green wrap isn't in line with the seam of the silver label. I wouldn't call the green center a label because it is an extra wrap, so it seems like if rods break more readily it won't be where that extra wrap was placed, maybe on either side of it somewhere. Today was the first day I've seen these rods and only the 3wraps. How long has rev been putting the green center wrap in their rods?

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Wayne Dowler    1,435

Give or take - a year now! I have only my diamond rods with this green label, all my others are "vintage". Compared flex with older diamonds, newer are more flexible. Heard from several sources that they also break under situations where older would have no issues. 

I'll look closer at my diamonds, but I don't think it is a wrap over the rod, either another label or ??? Maybe put on before baking?? All I know for sure is something changed in the lay up, or baking, or curing process for what can be best described as "specialty" rods. Even heard of rods that have ended up crooked! I will guess that had to be in the curing process, as crooked would be hard to remove from the mandrel that forms them.

Have not heard anything on how it could affect "wrap" rods. No feedback on them!

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andykaplan    8

I don't know the "real" difference -- but with the new green label 3-wrap rods, I've broken *two* *vertical* spars in moderate winds (in separate events).  They both snapped right at the end of the green label.

 

I've never snapped or broken another rod in my other 2-wrap, 3-wrap, or 4-wrap frames.  Wonder if there are other manufacturing changes?

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makatakam    1,477

You can't refurbish a broken carbon fiber tube. Once it's broken, it's garbage. 

So, I just looked at the new diamond rods I bought five months ago and at my older diamonds, and yup, green on the new and none on the old. The new ones are definitely more flexible, which may explain why the sail on my new build doesn't get taut enough and leaves the belly very "floppy". So I will try the older set in my new build tomorrow and see if there is a significant difference.

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SparkieRob    1,496

So, to be clear, new diamond rods are MORE flexible than the old ones? I didn't think carbon rods could get stiffer after use.

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hyzakite    183
9 hours ago, SparkieRob said:

So, to be clear, new diamond rods are MORE flexible than the old ones? I didn't think carbon rods could get stiffer after use.

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Not that way Rob, like Gen1 compared to Gen2 rods, or the new style to the old style rods.

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Wayne Dowler    1,435

The rods won't change properties, Rob, during their lifetime - BUT the next set (of the same rods) you buy might have different properties than those you own now! Check to see if you have "green label" rods ( silver labels with green bands at the ends) or older, just silver labels. The older rods are stiffer (quick reflex) and break less often than the newer green label rods. Same with race rods, they flex differently and break more easily now (those with the GL)! 

Still haven't determined if it was a mess up in production procedure, recipe for these specialty rods (remember they let Ben go and he was the tinkerer with rods!), or what. Just know they feel and act different from what was out in the past under the same label!

Lolly tried to make it out like we were setting up wrong! Something about the rods having a spine? In all my time flying Revs, I've NEVER thought about direction of the rods as I set up a kite - EVER! Just thrown them in! To try and tell me that I've been doing it wrong feels like an insult! Something is up and I don't know what! But they won't admit it might be on their end!

This doesn't seem to be a problem in the "wrap" rods! It doesn't seem to have changed them, or if it has, not enough for folks to notice. The issue shows up in the 2 specialty rods - diamonds and bl. race!

My advice is this - if you have older rods in good shape - keep them! Reglue those ferrules and just keep using them! You may or may not be happy with your next set!

 

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makatakam    1,477

Anything you wrap around a section of a tube will make the tube stronger in that area; even a wrap of painters' tape or a mylar label that's glued on will increase the strength of the tube in that area very slightly. For instance, if you put a tight-fitting steel sleeve, say about 3" long, in the middle of a tubular spar and glue it in position, then intentionally flex the tube to break it, it will always break right at one end (possibly both) of the steel sleeve. It's like breaking a two-piece spar that is joined using an external ferrule. It will never break inside of the ferrule -- ask any SLK guy! Spars joined using internal ferrules will usually break in the area over the ferrule, unless reinforced with a sleeve, either permanent or temporary, which can be just an extra wrap or two at the ends of the tube. See the ends of the newer spars -- they are thicker than the rest of the tube.

However, if you put some additional wraps/finish in the middle of the spar tube, it makes that area stiffer than the rest which makes the response quicker. Returns to straight faster after flexing. A tapered tube will yield similar results (fishing rod "actions"). The taper can be straight, parabolic or hyperbolic, even combinations of all three (you don't even want to know what the price of that kind of frame would be!!!!). Take a look at the price of some high-end fishing rods. 

Unless the additional wrap/reinforcment at the middle is tapered towards its ends it creates stress points at its ends because it doesn't flex equally compared to the rest of the tube.

Perplexing, ain't it?

Damn, I love physics!

P.S. -- @John Barresi -- I think this topic belongs elsewhere, you might want to move it. Thank You.

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John Barresi    3,938

I won't comment in depth yet, but I encourage ALL of you to do a basic deflection (flex) test comparing the older rods vs the new rods (green trim or "GT" as I've been calling it).

Simple deflection test?

Put one end of the rod in something solid, horizontal, then hang a fixed weight off the other end and mark where that end curves down to.

The original GT rods didn't show any difference, but at some point the specs changed seemingly across the board - I've seen more flexible diamond, black race and 3 wraps so far with the newest GT rods.

Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app

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SparkieRob    1,496
I won't comment in depth yet, but I encourage ALL of you to do a basic deflection (flex) test comparing the older rods vs the new rods (green trim or "GT" as I've been calling it).

Simple deflection test?

Put one end of the rod in something solid, horizontal, then hang a fixed weight off the other end and mark where that end curves down to.

The original GT rods didn't show any difference, but at some point the specs changed seemingly across the board - I've seen more flexible diamond, black race and 3 wraps so far with the newest GT rods.

Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app

Really surprised that the 3 wraps have been affected. I always assumed the "black magic" was applied to the race and diamond rods.

To anyone that has found different flex, is the new amount of flex the same across the set you got? Or do differently rods within the frame set flex at different rates? This, to me, is a bit of a concern.

Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app

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John Barresi    3,938

Goes without saying, it isn't a good idea to mix late model GT rods with the other stiffer rods, otherwise one wing can / will distort more than the other. :P

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