riffclown

4 lines... your choices

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riffclown    850

The landscape for quads is changing fast. The JB series' only have a few more months of production. The B Pros already are undergoing a new builder and all of the current ones out there will be hoarded with good reason by those that own them.  A Bazzer Pro B series won't hit the secondary market very often if at all. The Randy Tom (speculated) kites will have a following all their own. Printed sails are becoming the norm from Rev. Bazzer has his own kite, The Phoenix Pro, already making inroads into the quad community. Freilein is making serious waves both in quality and pricepoint. Rev has counter with the Reflex touting it as "THE" kite to have. The Rev alternatives threads will soon be seeing answers other than "a used Rev"   

 What will you be flying in a year? In two years? What's the next quad you buy?

Original posted edited to reflect listing: (so far)

On 1/6/2017 at 7:14 PM, riffclown said:
  • Assorted Revs including speculation on the next big thing.
  • Freilein Vertigo and Exodus
  • Freilein Traneye
  • Phoenix
  • Lam's ABS
  • Fulcrum
  • Magi-Q
  • Spirit Quad
  • Something Home Made
  • Lam's Vietnamese Flute
  • Stunt foils like the Smithi or my Symphony Conversion
  • A New "Something Something" or two we don't fully know about yet.

Edited by riffclown
Original posted edited to reflect listing: (so far)
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RobB    1,851

Either a Phoenix or Schook Mesh. Rev burned my bridge... Before all the big changes, I was a little upset with them about the leading edge mesh issue, and they never contacted me back after a few emails & a call. I'm glad I had my 1.5s repaired & improved, I do love flying them, but I can't support a company that doesn't support their customers after the sale. I know they just wanted me to buy new ones, and I'm glad I didn't.

Such sourness around the situation Rev created, I'm glad to distance myself from it. Kite flying is supposed to be fun...

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SparkieRob    1,494

For me, it would be a Pheonix from Baz. The Shook mesh is a fantastic kite but the price is a touch high atm. One day though. The Ocean Shore's Freilein comes with a frame that, from others, doesn't suit it that well. Well made to all reports though. Rev stockists will still be selling the B's but I have a set so in my situation it's a mute option.

Alternatives are;
Bai Design and Polo for a suite.

Possible but a little "tongue in cheek" is to get some Q Flaps for a duallie.....


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Paul LaMasters    442

Given a choice? probably a new SUL/full sail custom from Bazzer with the Shook leading edge touch added upon receipt state-side.

I have all the various Shook models and they are worth the money (if you can afford it)  It's like getting 2 kites in one for performance.  huge wind range (the mesh part of a vented kite is all the excess weight, so now your window is larger and you can fly in a wider range of conditions) 

The Vertigo is great value and worthy of serious consideration

I didn't connect with Lam's quad lined kite at all

The original Reflex will be fine tuned over the next half year or so, (dumping that pronounced oversteer!) but I like durable and easy to fly whenever giving lessons

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riffclown    850

I agree with you Rob (both Rob's in fact)

Rev kind of burned me with the Green Trim Rod change and drop in quality there.  I can't see myself ever buying a new Rev again with the exception of Eliot Shook's offerings. (you get to choose your Frame with Eliot so I can avoid the GT standard rods..) I'd consider a 75% mesh to go with my 40%.  I'm not opposed to buying used though.

I want to fly a Phoenix before making a choice or comment on that one.

Already ordered 4 Freilein Vertigos and they'll be on the way soon. (3 for a stack and one Max just 'cause I like the look..)

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JWharton    49

Hi, I am real confused I only have a full sail SLE at the moment. With the evenings drawing in I realise that daylight is soon going to be precious, in doing what I love, flying my rev!
So I'll be able to fly in stronger winds I was going to buy a vented b-series.
Now I don't know wether to wait, get something else, or just get the vented so in years to come I can say, I'm glad I've got that!
Any feedback welcome, I like opinions everyone's got one.

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riffclown    850

You should buy what you like. The Vented B Series is a nice kite indeed.  I don't think you'll find anyone with anything bad to say about @John Barresi's contribution to the Rev line of kites. He advanced them a long ways in design and functionality.

The topic start here was, there are other options beginning to gain more acceptance in the community.. Once the first of the year rolls around, the B Series will no longer be available from Rev.  They are already posturing a new product but alternatives are now numerous.. 

This was about gathering speculation on the alternatives.. sort of a preemptive "Alternatives to the Rev" threads we see every so often. With The changes at Rev, and other offerings available from different directions, I wanted to get into the thought processes of those like yourself considering another quad for whatever reason..
 

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JWharton    49

Being a bit of a newbie from what I've read in the forums the end of the b-series is the end of an era. I would like to own one of the last.

I went to Portsmouth kite festival a few weeks ago and met up with oapbillf. I saw some alternatives being flown including a polo all looked real good.

So hopefully I will have two quads to start my collection going. As i get more I will debate over many hours hopefully which is best!

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makatakam    1,470

Polo kites are super sweet, and rather expensive. The best kite for the money, IMHO, is the Rev B-Series and if I didn't already have 13 Revs, including a full suite of B-Pros, I would be buying every B-Series I could get my hands on, including used. YMWV.

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makatakam    1,470
9 hours ago, JWharton said:

LOL 13 I've got some catching up to doemoji5.png

Sent from my SM-G903F using KiteLife mobile app
 

And it's a minor collection compared to a few people I know.

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Tim P.    110

I have standard JB 1.5 and Shook mesh. Was about to pull the trigger on a JB Pro when all the hullabaloo went down. A Phoenix Pro is on order.

I've seen the Freilein before at a distance, put my hands on one for the first time a month or so ago. Materials and build quality looks surprisingly good but no experience flying one yet. Soon.

The future of quads looks just fine, even with what's going on with Rev.

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hyzakite    183

I'll probably be flying the revs I have for the rest of my life. One thing I won't do is fly one in 30 to 40mph winds and expect it to last. And I won't carry a bowling ball in a plastic grocery bag and expect it to last. But if the kite failed, I wouldn't call the company for repairs, if my car failed I wouldn't call the factory that did the final assembly, if my LG tv fails I wouldn't call the factory that built it, if a kid threw a baseball throw my window I wouldn't call united plate glass company. Call the place where you bought it!

If I was to buy a Freilein kite, and this is only an if. And if something was to go wrong with it, and I called the factory in China, and there was no reply or I couldn't understand what they was saying, I guess I should write them off! But I probably wouldn't write them off because the children working all day in the factory for a little extra money so their family won't go without food that day, knowing that I helped that kid buy a teaspoon of rice by making about $5 worth of kite would make me feel good!

Oh, my car needs an oil change, I use Shell oil, so I better call there headquarters in Netherlands.:D

If you fly a kite with there name on it. you are supporting them by advertising for them!

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riffclown    850

Interesting mix of scenarios, The grocery bag bowling ball is common sense. As for the baseball through the window, accidents do happen. In your other two cases though, you have a reasonable expectation of quality and thus the warranties involved.

If you new car's brakes failed pulling out of the dealer lot and you got hit because of it, don't try to say you wouldn't be all over the dealer and the manufacturer. There's normal wear and tear but there's an expectation of quality in a product purchased. Especially one with a premium price point.  That's why there's recalls on products like certain Airbags and even TV's whose capacitors failed and left users with black screens. The current Galaxy Phone issues also seem to be relevant.. If you phone catches on fire is it your carrier or the manufacturer that is to blame?.. Same deal with iPhones a few years back.

If I need a kite repaired, I send it to me. If I can't repair it, I'll contact Eliot. I didn't ask Rev to repair my Trifinity when the spar broke and I had to rebuild the LE. I was flying it in higher winds. It was possibly my fault. I didn't ask Rev to replace a cracked SLE on my vented I loaned them for the Rogallo. I'm not positive it was in their hands when it happened. I'm sure they would have responded if asked in that case.

When my Reflex Handles started falling apart in the first few months, I posted on their forum and expected a response. I got crickets. Lesson learned, they don't read their own forums. I don't do Facebook.

There's  a reason that decades long loyalists to Rev,  including DEALERS are considering alternatives. The quality has gone down while the prices have increased. Rev has increasingly decided to compete with their retailers to get a bigger piece of every single sale. There is a reasonable expectation of quality in a product with their reputation. 

Kiting is about having fun, not having exclusivity. Two years ago, this topic would not have even been possible on any forum.

If you will be flying Rev's forever then I applaud your brand loyalty. I hope you've stocked up on Non-Green Trimmed rods. You've also answered my question as asked and there are tons of people that agree with you.

I like Rev, I like their kites and I have several. I'll personally buy a used Rev in a heartbeat depending on the frame included. At this time though, I'd only consider a new one if it was a Shook Mesh. I'm not against the brand at all.. I'm against some of the more recent changes in  the brand. I'll probably have several Revs in my bag forever myself.. like the special ones. Old Glory, My Stack, and even a few others..

After the feedback with the Green Trimmed rods was ignored, I can say that I can't personally justify paying the NEW premium for their baseline product any more. No rod should break in multiple places at the same location every time and on first flight. They've tanked their own product for exclusivity. Their stated purpose for the change was their Rods were getting copied too and this information is First Hand. IMO, change should be for improvements, not for profit. There's a problem and they are ignoring it.

If Rev listened to feedback, the screen wear issue would have been solved YEARS AGO. The Spar pockets would have been sealed to deter fraying and the green trimmed rods would have been recalled and replaced.

Interestingly, many of the design changes in both Bazzer's Phoenix and the Freilein Exodus are based on public feedback that Rev ignored. It seems Rev is no longer trying to innovate, they seem to be more focused  on something new they can patent to protect their price point. .. That's exactly why they released the Reflex.

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kitedad    41

I noticed a change already in the freilien kites, first time I noticed was at wsikf when team evidence rolled out their new custom colored freilein kites. There was no mesh along the top, instead there are a series of 3/4 in holes in line along the LE. After that I was in ocean shores last weekend and seen they had these kites on sale in the store as well. There were still the ones with the mesh  for sale also, I don't know if they are discontinuing the mesh or will offer both versions.  He said there's no problem with their mesh as its not the same as Rev's mesh, so why put holes in it instead?  Look at Rev, did they know in advance how long the mesh would last, I doubt it. Getting rid of the mesh solves the mesh problem but will the holes do much better in the long run?.  This is innovation at work, Sometimes there are bumps along the way I expect to see more of this type of thing, with competition comes innovation. Let the games begin.

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hyzakite    183

I was simply referring to the post about a kite that has been abused for years, I know the past posts about the kite. Nothing to do with off the showroom floor. But in all fairness if something broke on your Freilein and you tried to contact the company, what kind of response do you thing you would get from them? What's there address? what's there phone number? what's there email? Why should you expect anything more from the Revolution factory? That's why there is dealers/stores.

Where is Freileins forum? Revs forum was for the rev fliers not for Revs people to answer all the topics and posts, they never did as far as I remember, well except for Ben.

I know nothing about bazzer's phoenix or freilein's exodus as a result public feedback that rev ignored.

Yes I have plenty of non-green trimmed rods, and even 5 green trimmed rods, but the last time I had a rod break was when a friend closed my car door on it about 5 years ago.

As far as the dealers considering alternatives, is profit! It's against the law here in the USA to hire children to work in a kite factory for 8 hours for a lousy cup of rice!

As far as feedback on green trim rods being ignored, how would anyone know if it was ignored or not unless someone at the rev factory actually said we ignored the feedback, and if they was to say we ignored the feedback, then the feedback wasn't really ignored, now was it?

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Bill Clay    51

Being a relative newcomer to the Rev (Quad) world, I'm quite pleased with my standard B and I'm sure the full vent B that I recently acquired will be great as well (haven't had the opportunity to fly it yet). If I ever happen to find a large sum of money under my mattress or something, I would love to get my hands on a Phoenix pro and/or a Shook mesh. A guy can dream... :)


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hyzakite    183
51 minutes ago, kitedad said:

I noticed a change already in the freilien kites, first time I noticed was at wsikf when team evidence rolled out their new custom colored freilein kites. There was no mesh along the top, instead there are a series of 3/4 in holes in line along the LE. After that I was in ocean shores last weekend and seen they had these kites on sale in the store as well. There were still the ones with the mesh  for sale also, I don't know if they are discontinuing the mesh or will offer both versions.  He said there's no problem with their mesh as its not the same as Rev's mesh, so why put holes in it instead?  Look at Rev, did they know in advance how long the mesh would last, I doubt it. Getting rid of the mesh solves the mesh problem but will the holes do much better in the long run?.  This is innovation at work, Sometimes there are bumps along the way I expect to see more of this type of thing, with competition comes innovation. Let the games begin.

The type of mesh is on the Freilein / OSKUSA kites only, as far as I'm aware of, which is Dacron. The kites are labeled as Freilein / OSKUSA I believe the rod pockets are a bit smaller also. It's a store thing, not available at other stores.

I have a few kites with that type of leading edge from years ago, but different holes.

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u280/flt101/KITE REV TYPE/003_zpsjbhclfhn.jpg

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kitedad    41

When I spoke to andy at osk, he said the revs have a rubberized mesh, that could explain why some are degrading. Rubber has a tendancy to detiorate over time and exposure to the elements, Car tires do the same thing, they dry out, start cracking and pretty soon bob's your uncle. Don't know about dacron mesh at all, it's the chance you take. Some vented duals have lazer cut holes.I have one, it's a silver fox, no problems whatsoever with the holes. I would take a chance if I had to do it over again after all its a 160-200$ kite not a 400-600$ one. I like my gold teeth and I don't want to sell any to buy a quad. One last thing, are mesh panels in the vented revs the same mesh? Are they not having problems as well. If so, why not?

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riffclown    850
2 hours ago, kitedad said:

Getting rid of the mesh solves the mesh problem but will the holes do much better in the long run?.  This is innovation at work, Sometimes there are bumps along the way I expect to see more of this type of thing, with competition comes innovation. Let the games begin.

Exactly! I'm under the impression that the Exodus line of Freileins have the holes and  hidden spar innovations.. I think the Vertigo line has the more standard meshing you are used to seeing.. Not sure though..

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kitedad    41

 

18 minutes ago, riffclown said:

Exactly! I'm under the impression that the Exodus line of Freileins have the holes and  hidden spar innovations.. I think the Vertigo line has the more standard meshing you are used to seeing.. Not sure though..

If it's a thing, call andy,  at osk he'll clear it all up. It's all water under the bridge for me now, maybe this info will help others make a decision.

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riffclown    850
On 9/11/2016 at 5:00 PM, kitedad said:

 

If it's a thing, call andy,  at osk he'll clear it all up. It's all water under the bridge for me now, maybe this info will help others make a decision.

Never met him but his reputation all around sounds like he's OK.. i know others that have dealt/talked with him. OSK seems to be the North American Distributor..The kites I got from Kites Unlimited also had the OSK Branding.

Shortest path to the source for issues would make them a stop in any problem resolution.

Freilein Vertigo Bags and packaging

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kitedad    41

When I bought the vertigo he told me straight up the sail material in the vertigo line is p20 I think he called it, is new to kites and has not been tried and tested in service for years like p31, icarex they call it which is used in the exodus line. The p20 sail in a std.is a little lighter and can fly in a little less wind than the exodus std. It looks and feels just like icarex. I prefer the p20 in the vertigo std because of the slightly improved wind range. even though the sail exibits crease marks along the fold lines more readily than icarex. I would have preferred to have gotten the exodus max instead of the vertigo max had I to do it all over and not take a chance on that kite as the wind range is irrelevant with the max'es.  both Kites seems to be flying well though. I can't say if he knew about the crease mark thing in the p20 when he sold me the kite, it was more like Hey look this kite material is new and I don't know if it will last a year or ten years. It was my decision - I found out about the crease marks a few weeks later from another vertigo flyer I recently met at the field. Who knows who knew what when.

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hyzakite    183

Don't worry about the crease marks, if the kite is overflown for the sails material, it'll crease over the area that doesn't crease. If you want something that isn't creased, buy a Tuxedo or a Boeing Dreamliner.

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