riffclown

4 lines... your choices

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2 hours ago, hyzakite said:

Don't worry about the crease marks, if the kite is overflown for the sails material, it'll crease over the area that doesn't crease. If you want something that isn't creased, buy a Tuxedo or a Boeing Dreamliner.

The crease marks are not from flying but from the folding when putting it away. it is only doing that where the two LE spars come together straight down the kite kind of like when you fold wax paper. I don't see that happening on any of my icarex duallies anywhere, but understand that can happen as well to icarex but perhaps not to the same extent. I'm not too worried about it, if I get several hundred use cycles out of it before it goes south, I'll have gotten my moneys worth, I paid 160$ for the std.  I'm pretty sure it's just a cosmetic problem. Only time will tell. If I had some pics I would post them, if anyone would like to see what i'm talking about I will do that. Andy is aware of the problem from several sources. Another flyer I know with the same kite is showing more creasing as his has been stored and folded more than mine so mine isn't too bad-yet.

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Interesting, OSKUSA is Ocean Shores Kites. I have pictures of the Vertigo with the holes across the leading edge which is exclusive to OSK. The center panel is printed Freilein // OSKUSA. There is only a few in, so far.

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15 hours ago, kitedad said:

When I bought the vertigo he told me straight up the sail material in the vertigo line is p20 I think he called it, is new to kites and has not been tried and tested in service for years like p31, icarex they call it which is used in the exodus line. The p20 sail in a std.is a little lighter and can fly in a little less wind than the exodus std. It looks and feels just like icarex. I prefer the p20 in the vertigo std because of the slightly improved wind range. even though the sail exibits crease marks along the fold lines more readily than icarex. I would have preferred to have gotten the exodus max instead of the vertigo max had I to do it all over and not take a chance on that kite as the wind range is irrelevant with the max'es.  both Kites seems to be flying well though. I can't say if he knew about the crease mark thing in the p20 when he sold me the kite, it was more like Hey look this kite material is new and I don't know if it will last a year or ten years. It was my decision - I found out about the crease marks a few weeks later from another vertigo flyer I recently met at the field. Who knows who knew what when.

I remember read about the p20 and p31 online somewhere that mentioned the different weights and also talked with Andy about the p20 not really been tested on kites as far as long term and is a time will tell type material. If I was to get one it would be the lightest one with the T0 frame and never put it back in its sleeve until I sold it. Probably the best is to remove the LE and lightly fold the fabric enough to toss in the car's largest unused place, across the back seat or along the width of the trunk with one light fold in the middle so it really isn't a fold.

Don't let other people make you believe a quad kite needs to be put in a sleeve to get from the house to the flying area. Don't let other people make you believe you need to carry 18 kites down to the beach in a kite bag just to fly 1 kite for most of the day.

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Some people take the frames out and roll up the sail - no folds that way. Not sure how that would work in a Rev bag, but should work fine in any "dig" bag. 

No, you don't "need" 18 kites - but you'd better have a couple just in case the winds decide to change!

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Wanted to quickly acknowledge the tact this group is maintaining throughout what is sometimes a very polarizing subject - y'all do me proud - that's pretty much the only rule for public discussions here, never personal, rub the subjective facts together and let the subjective truths reveal themselves - peaceable disagreement is a beautiful thing.

I've been really enjoying the discussions thus far, and I look forward to adding my own thoughts more freely in the new year. :)

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What it all comes down to is preference, some like Cadillac, some like Mercedes. Some people don't like to live by status-quo. I say who cares as long as you enjoy flying whatever you have!


Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app

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I would be inclined to remove the frame completely and to roll the P20 kite sail around the frame.

I mostly carry three Revs when I'm packing light (long walk from parking lot to flying area):

1. Super Ultralight        home-made and much lighter than other SUL's

2. Standard Sail            

3. Full Vent

Those cover 90 percent of conditions. If conditions change, I'll walk back and grab the Extra Vent, or a beer at the nearest pub.

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Anyone have any experience with the Freilein Exodus Mid vents? I was considering purchasing one as my first quad when the time comes.

I figure the mid would cover a wider wind range, eliminating the need to get a full sail, and a full vent. Those can come later.

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Your choice - but I can't agree with it. There will be days that there isn't enough wind, or days of too much, and your mid will be the wrong choice, The full sail/full vent option gives you the most wind range coverage. Yes it is two sails, but you can get the second as a "kite only" option and skip duplicating the lines and handles you already have! 

Think of a brick wall - two bricks end to end and one centered over the joint. Which covers the most space?? Admittedly, the two sails do have a bit of a hole in their overlap, but using the frames (they are interchangeable) from either sail, will get you through that spot. IMHO - YMMV!

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So I guess I need to either pick a full sail or a full vent to best cover the most likely wind in my area rather than to cover all available wind. And then down the road pick up the one that I didn't the first time around. Makes sense.

How rough is it to fly a full sail in the higher end of the wind range? Is it more of an issue of control, breakage or both?

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both, fast reactions needed and strong hands to control a full sail on hard winds.on top of that lines and frame will be under big stress. to strong lines means you will break the frame,to small lines and you will snap them.

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My opinion - both! Control suffers as winds pick up and it gets harder to manage things. Breakage - because as you possibly lose control - crashes happen, and in bigger winds = bigger crashes! All in all not a good thing. It's not that any mid is the "bad choice", more that it does take a bit more wind before it even starts to fly. With a std sail - you'd be up and flying. Again, in high winds, when the mid is struggling, a full vent would be a better choice.

In the end though it is always your choice!!

 

PS: I carry 5-6 almost always - a Zen and SUL for light wind, std, mid, F/V, and X/V to cover just about anything encountered!

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The real issue is that there is no one "perfect kite" for every and all conditions. Rather each has an appropriate wind range geared to make the most from that sail. Can you "force something to do more or less"? You might to a point. But wouldn't you be happier driving in nails with a hammer, instead of using pliers?

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17 minutes ago, Wayne Dowler said:

But wouldn't you be happier driving in nails with a hammer, instead of using pliers?

I prefer the expression "A jack of all trades is a master of none".
Which is exactly what I appear to be asking for.

I guess I'll look at Freilein or Rev full sails for now then.

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6 hours ago, Wayne Dowler said:

Some people take the frames out and roll up the sail - no folds that way. Not sure how that would work in a Rev bag, but should work fine in any "dig" bag. 

No, you don't "need" 18 kites - but you'd better have a couple just in case the winds decide to change!

Need is such a strong word.. I typically have anywhere from 30-50 kites on hand when I hit an event.. But I also supply kites to train the public and I fly stacks and power kites for demos too..

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A year from now I'll still be flying the kites I have now.  I will undoubtedly add a few more in the meantime.  Two years from now, most likely the trend will continue.  A couple years ago I came to the realization that some quad kites were fairly rare & I was concerned that a few might not continue to be produced.  I found out some were not very popular & I know it makes economic sense for a larger producer to discontinue low volume models.  So I made a point to get a few of these kites even though I will not likely fly them as much as my more mainstream models.  Here's the prime example.  Six hundred dollars kite only.  Pretty big commitment literally & financially.

gallery_7709_404_512071.jpg

My main concern with a kite like this is will I be able to keep it flying if it's discontinued or the maker goes out of business,  If I don't have the proper fittings I can make them using machine tools I already own.  I can patch the sail if needed & find help for larger sail repairs.  But tubes are another matter so buying some spares is a reasonable plan.  Substitute tubes exist for some but not all carbon wrapped tubes.  This one has a tough frame but some others don't.  Regardless I will continue to grab a few more kites, many from the secondary market.  My next quad?  Might be another foil....Mostly I still just want to fly em all.   SHBKF

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15 hours ago, hyzakite said:

Interesting, OSKUSA is Ocean Shores Kites. I have pictures of the Vertigo with the holes across the leading edge which is exclusive to OSK. The center panel is printed Freilein // OSKUSA. There is only a few in, so far

 I did manage to take a quick look at the holes in the freilein  when I was in the store and they looked very nicely done. Lazer cut I quess, no frizzizy edges ect, just pure perfect holes. The other post about carrying a bag full around, I wish I could be sure of the wind and only have to carry one or two kites but lately as in a lot lately, the wind is about 1-3 till around lunch, then it starts to pick up so I change kite,  then pretty soon sometimes about 5 min after I've put it together and set it up the wind has changed again, away goes that kite, then another kite but no- same thing set it up half hour later the wind is really going now. out comes the vented and so on. Then along comes a horde of quad flyers and suddenly there's no room to fly the duallies so we pull out the quads,{can't beat em joined em} It's mostly like that because of where I live.  Since I'm the mule I have little to say, so I shoulder the bag and start huffing. It's not too bad, bag is maybe 25-30 lbs. two old mid size kites for old times sake, five full size duallies, one mid size sul 0-5 mph and two quads.  If I had another bag like that on the other shoulder they would look like boosters on the space shuttle.  No matter what the wind does that day we are prepared though. I think that's about all we need for kites now, That huge kite by SHBKF is awesome bth, a cool collectors item. I'd like to see a vid of him flying that. I'm not sure to what extent Andy is involved in the freilein line, I spoke to him briefly about that but can't remember the conversation much, I believe he up to his eyeballs in it though.

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9 hours ago, John Barresi said:

Wanted to quickly acknowledge the tact this group is maintaining throughout what is sometimes a very polarizing subject - y'all do me proud - that's pretty much the only rule for public discussions here, never personal, rub the subjective facts together and let the subjective truths reveal themselves - peaceable disagreement is a beautiful thing.

Couldn't help but thinking about the polarization you mention about some in the kite community and the same thing that happens between skiers and snowboarders.  {My boy skies in the winter} I'm very fortunate to have a son that likes and can appreciate both in either world. I have to say though, Kiting is a LOT safer.

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Wait until he combines the hobbies.. A set of Ski's and a 12.5m HQ Montana will change your world entirely..

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2 hours ago, riffclown said:

Wait until he combines the hobbies.. A set of Ski's and a 12.5m HQ Montana will change your world entirely..

I don't think I'll live long enough to see that, the learning curve to be that good on ski's can take a very long time. You have to start sking very young to get that good, he only started sking three seasons ago. I see people putting kids in skis and getting lessons at the resort and they are barely old enough to walk. The nice thing about the pnw is the variety of fun things to do with a kite or a parachute. quite a few kite surfers near the marina where we fly. Met a fellow one day, early forties I think with one of those parafoil parachutes or whatever you strap yourself into a harness and off you go into the wild blue younder. He was letting it fly just above him in some light air not enough to get him off the ground - to clear out the crickets he said got into it. There's no limit to the things you can do here if you have the desire despite all the rain. Sorry if this is getting a little off topic, maybe this should be in the open topic section.

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2 hours ago, kitedad said:

Met a fellow one day, early forties I think with one of those parafoil parachutes or whatever you strap yourself into a harness and off you go into the wild blue younder.

We have these crazies that fly right at Clover Point where everyone in Victoria seems to fly their kites.

 

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23 hours ago, kitedad said:

He was letting it fly just above him in some light air not enough to get him off the ground - to clear out the crickets he said got into it

Chirp chirp   chirp chirp Can't You Hear Them! The only place free of them is up there!  Here they come now! Fly away or they'll get you!  chirp chirp...

mmmkay

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Bringing this back to topic..

I've been solidifying my position on the original question.. I'll probably continue to have a mix of Rev and Non-Rev (Freilein, Home-Made and others) quads for my framed four liners.. I can't see getting rid of my B-series, Old Glory SUL, Ghost SUL or my Shook.. I like flying my printed sails but unless Rev releases a must have for me, I don't think I'll shop for those in the future.. I might pick up any given sail on any given day, second hand. Keeping my eye out for a B-Series Pro though.. I've never had the good fortune to own one of those but it's on my WANT  list..

I want to fly a Phoenix but given the up front cost, I'll definitely have to fly before I buy..

I'll always have my Symphony quads and whatever Powerkites meet my fancy at the time as I am primarily a power kite flier..

On the Power Kite Side I tend to favor the HQ Kites brand..Toxics, Crossfires etc..

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