Bill Clay Posted December 10, 2016 Report Share Posted December 10, 2016 Thinking about what to get myself for Christmas... Rev Diamond Rods are on the list. Curious if Skyshark P90's are near equivalent for about half the price... Anyone have any thoughts? Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
browndude3649 Posted December 11, 2016 Report Share Posted December 11, 2016 http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=13662.0 I have a 2 month old now so I forgot exactly how it flies but if u have masking tape n a dremel with cutting disc or hobby hacksaw, ur good to go ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkieRob Posted December 11, 2016 Report Share Posted December 11, 2016 I have a set of Diamonds and love but hear good stuff about the Skyshark frames. Even Bazzer is putting them in his Pheonixs! Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makatakam Posted December 11, 2016 Report Share Posted December 11, 2016 I have and fly both. They are two different critters. Your flying style and how you want the kite to respond will determine which is the one to use. Neither one is better than the other, just different. The price reflects the materials used and the wrap pattern, which also account for the differnces in performance. The one thing that is dramatically different is the response time, how quickly it returns from bent to straight. The Diamond frame is much quicker in response, and therefore more suitable for a yank-and-spank flying style than the P90. Both are lightweight, light wind tubes. In wind of 1/2 mph or less, the P90 will require less "pumping" because of the slower response, and will make the kite move more smoothly. The only way to appreciate the difference is to fly both in the same sail in the same conditions. If you are just starting out with quads you will probably not notice much, if any, difference. It doesn't become noticeable until you gain a bit of proficiency in flying very light wind. Once you cease to struggle in a 1/2-mph breeze, the difference will become readily apparent. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Clay Posted December 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2016 Thanks for your input Mak. The main reason I wanted Diamonds is so I can get proficient in very light winds. I also wanted to try them in my full vent B in low/moderate winds. I'm not quite at the 'yank and spank' level of flying yet, lol. My only hesitation is that I'm not sure I want to mess with cutting rods to size and gluing ferrules. I haven't done much research, but I would hate to screw that up and have to buy more rods...Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
riffclown Posted December 11, 2016 Report Share Posted December 11, 2016 I'll help you out. I have a P90 frame you can borrow. Just let me know. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted December 11, 2016 Report Share Posted December 11, 2016 Too often I see people chasing equipment in favor of not developing technique - not a useful practice unless you have deep pockets! Yes, the diamond frame is meant for light winds, got one myself in an SUL. but not in my Zen! Relatively, not a whole lot gained by weight loss. But if you know how to use it - another story! I know a very experienced flier that ONLY uses 3 wrap frames in EVERYTHING he flies - doesn't seem to hinder him. My point: it's not necessarily all about the equipment! PS: the offer of the P-90 frame would be a great choice! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Clay Posted December 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 11, 2016 I wouldn't say I'm chasing equipment, I definitely don't have an endless supply of cash. That's why I originally asked if P90's are an acceptable substitute at $25 compared to $130 Diamonds. However, I am trying to cover as much of the wind range as possible so I can fly whenever the opportunity presents itself. I need all the practice I can get. Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonfish Posted December 11, 2016 Report Share Posted December 11, 2016 Cutting rods and gluing ferrules is not that difficult. I had never done any of that before I made my set of P90s. I didn't even have any tools and such to do something like that. I did some research and bought a fine tooth hobby saw (they're cheap) and MacGyver'ed a "sawhorse" to cut them on. It worked out fine. Take up riffclown's offer to borrow a set. Then if you like it, you might be more eager to make your own. He can probably give you tips on how to do it too. Regarding diamonds vs. P90s, I think the comparison is somewhat similar to race rods vs. 2-wraps. They cover a similar wind range, but the response is different. Personally, I got used to my 2,3,4-wraps, and P90s for very light wind, and never got used to race rods and diamonds when I was lent them to try out. YMMV. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
browndude3649 Posted December 12, 2016 Report Share Posted December 12, 2016 4 hours ago, Wayne Dowler said: Too often I see people chasing equipment in favor of not developing technique - not a useful practice unless you have deep pockets! Yes, the diamond frame is meant for light winds, got one myself in an SUL. but not in my Zen! Relatively, not a whole lot gained by weight loss. But if you know how to use it - another story! Chasing equipment ! ? Guilty as Charged! I ended up buying Skyshark2 p400 to mimic a SLE LE plus uprights.. has more give but still more lively than stock parts. pick a super glue that gives 15 seconds before it sets up solid. lolz Quote I know a very experienced flier that ONLY uses 3 wrap frames in EVERYTHING he flies - doesn't seem to hinder him. My point: it's not necessarily all about the equipment! PS: the offer of the P-90 frame would be a great choice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkieRob Posted December 12, 2016 Report Share Posted December 12, 2016 If a frame makes you feel more confident to try things; lighter wind, then go for it. It may unlock keys for you. Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makatakam Posted December 12, 2016 Report Share Posted December 12, 2016 Yup! Definitely experiment. That's how you learn, and that's also how to improve your skills. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul LaMasters Posted December 12, 2016 Report Share Posted December 12, 2016 you can assembly a hybrid frame too, using the "travel-frame format" as a guide. You can mix diamonds with Green race for example, stiff at the junction of the two spars and flexible everywhere else. You could run a tapered tube as the downspar, after all the bottom edge/end has less sail surface area, so rightly it should also need less strength to support it, correct? I like a lot of flex on the leading edge when alone, but need it much stiffer to do team gigs or track a straight line instead of flailing P-90s are like diamonds just a crossbow matches a long bow from england during robin hood times. They both throw an object down field, intended to maim or kill. HOW that object arrives is dependent on both the person shooting and the weapon itself. Green Race works almost always as a tube choice, diamonds allow you to fly the wrong kite in the right conditions. Experimenting with framing cost money, but so does all of the other fun stuff I'm addicted to in my spare time. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted December 12, 2016 Report Share Posted December 12, 2016 Well that certainly stirred up things a bit! My point was (and still is), that it is technique, first and foremost, that you need, more than the latest, greatest thing! I don't question buying stuff, but I also endorse the idea of knowing why, what purpose, and unless you know the reason, not duplicating equipment you already have. I do believe in expanding your ability to fly in as many conditions as possible. That's why most fliers have several models of the same platform, ie - std, mid, f/v, x/v - etc. Opens up your ability to fly in the many conditions we face daily. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Clay Posted December 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2016 I'm with ya Wayne I'm just trying to expand my collection of relevant equipment without breaking the bank. I really want to try flying my full vent B in lower winds, hopefully the lighter rods will help with that... I also want to try what Paul suggested with a hybrid frame. Maybe 2 wrap center, P90 ends and down spar. Never thought about tapers for those... hmmm... lolSent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobB Posted December 12, 2016 Report Share Posted December 12, 2016 An indoor Rev might be the answer, if you're trying to fly in REALLY low winds. I bought a Zen, thinking that would be the answer to my low-wind blues, but found that my 1.5 with Black Race rods was actually easier to keep in the air. I can fly the 1.5 in pretty low winds, but the 1/2 mph wind mentioned above ? That's a big NO. It's not that I don't have low wind experience or haven't been flying that long... maybe I just don't want to spend the energy running around while I could be just standing there, easily flying one of my dual line SULs. I figure that an indoor Rev would deliver that experience, but I never felt the need to buy yet another Rev. Revs are for big wind, duallies are for little wind... BTW... I've seen indoor Revs for pretty much the same $$$ as a diamond frame... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 For those of you following - Bill is trying to get his F/V to fly in conditions that favor a M/V, by using frames. It can be done. Pretty sure he is liking the smoothness of the vented and is trying to lower that sail's range. Anyone else? As a team flier mostly - I prefer a slightly overpowered sail. You can't do maneuvers if you can't get off the ground! I'll admit to cheating some, as a solo flier I like underpowered, but you can't get away with that in team flying. As a team, we usually discuss and come up with a common setup to use in that condition, that way all the kites respond the same. Sometimes we even have someone play the role of guinea pig and test the sky! Come back and report to the team if that is OK or do we need to rethink. So that shades my thinking some!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Clay Posted December 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 That pretty much sums it up. I'm just trying things out, seeing what works and how... I'm nowhere near ready to fly in a group yet. Baby steps... lolSent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makatakam Posted December 13, 2016 Report Share Posted December 13, 2016 If you want to fly a Rev in a 1/2-mph breeze you will need one that weighs 4.75 ounces or less. This can be accomplished with a one-piece factory sail, with modified bungees, modified endcaps, 90-lb spectra bridle and 50-lb flying lines. These mods will bring the one-piece sail down to a little over 4.75 ounces. Any multi-panel sail will weigh in at over 5 ounces. If you want to fly a Rev, sitting down, in a 1/2-mph breeze, you will need to build your own and make each component as light as possible, with as much increase in sail area as possible. This means cutting back on the weight and/or amount of all materials used, which does make the finished kite somewhat more fragile, but not eggshell fragile. The sheer joy of flying with your butt firmly planted on the ground while most others can't even get airborne for more than a few seconds and work up a lot of sweat is priceless. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkieRob Posted December 14, 2016 Report Share Posted December 14, 2016 Put a Diamond frame into a B Std sail and you can comfortably fly in ZERO wind on 30 feet. I've never been game enough to try them in a Mid or VTD sail. Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul LaMasters Posted December 14, 2016 Report Share Posted December 14, 2016 10 hours ago, SparkieRob said: Put a Diamond frame into a B Std sail and you can comfortably fly in ZERO wind on 30 feet. I've never been game enough to try them in a Mid or VTD sail. Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app I use a diamond frame in a 135% Shook mesh (my highest wind kite), but then depending on conditions it could also sport a hybrid frame of 4 wraps and green race too. You want it bendy in low wind and pretty stiff if it's howling outside. Shook mesh kites are very versatile when a couple of framing choices are included. I have seen their 40%, next to 75% and others are on 100% or 135%,.. each person thinks they have the correct set-up and all the other folks are insane for using their arrangements, all flying on the same line-up next to each other.. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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