Advice for a beginner to kiting and 2-line kites

[Edmond Dragut]

that is a correct conclusion, upper nose means more wind on the sail, more pull, more lift and more stress 

[RobB]

I rarely adjust the bridle on my kites. Each kite has it's own sweet spot, and once you find it, it covers the wind range for that kite. In my bag, most kites don't have a wind range greater than 5mph. It's either a 0-5mph kite, or a 5-10mph kite. 

I have never noticed much of a difference adjusting AOA, it is not some magic trick that will make one kite into two. You may have gotten the impression that adjusting the nose in will make the kite fly in light winds. If you're lucky, it might buy you a  1mph lower wind range. But don't even count on that. I leave the AOA somewhere close to mid-way, a little bias towards the nose, but that's just me. I don't like a hard pulling kite, and I feel that my turns are sharp enough, and my stalls are stally enough for me. 

BTW, if you read deep enough into Prism literature, you will find the statement that says to adjust the AOA towards the nose in the highest winds. I remember that, but forget which field card it was on... I'll have to look it up.

 

**Edit... I looked it up, found it in the Prism Field Guide, click below.

http://ferob.com/kites/1995_prism_guide.pdf

 

[makatakam]

Also, if you actually measure the surface area of the tail, you will probably find that it's three or more times that of the kite sail. The wind blows on this surface too and adds to the overall pull of the kite.

[SparkieRob]

Best advice for a beginner to kiting and 2-line kites would be:

Get a ticket to the JB International!!!

Literally THE BEST investment into kiting you can make!


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[John Barresi]

Nose forward = less pull, wider turns, more "lift"... Too far forward and the kite becomes gutless, weak wide turns.

(nose forward = bridle points higher on kite)

Nose back = more pull, faster (if wind is enough for the setting), tighter spins, more stall-prone... Too far back, oversteer and or the kite won't fly forward.

(nose back = bridle points lower on kite)

Essentially the same dynamic we play with using Rev leaders, adjusting the default leading edge angle more toward or away from the pilot to find a sweet spot.

[jasonmcmahon76]

Best advice for a beginner to kiting and 2-line kites would be:

Get a ticket to the JB International!!!

Literally THE BEST investment into kiting you can make!


Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app

...you say that as though I don't already have a ticket. Maybe you better be ready for an East coast clinic!

Sent from my E6653 using KiteLife mobile app

[jasonmcmahon76]

Early sitrep from my latest outing: marginal winds in a less than ideal fields. Managed a couple of little snap stalls.
Somehow managed to break another centre t connection!

Fortunately I had a spare and could do a field repair and get back in the air. (So there!)

Not sure how I broke it, maybe attempted ground recovery. Edit: On review of video, definitely a ground recovery.

Also, the replacement is already showing signs of bending. I guess I better restrict myself to more kite inspections...

On the plus side, my new stake came in very handy! First automatic lift-off because I didn't tilt the kite back far enough.

All in all a little frustrating today. Mainly due to field choice I think. It's a bit of an effort to get to the beach and I've just come off night shift so don't want to stray too far from home.

Edited February 23, 2017 by jasonmcmahon76
Pictures!

[Tim P.]

That's the third center tee on there now for the short time you've had it? And it's already bent? Sounds like you must be flying in hurricane force winds! The Quantum is a pretty sturdy kite. Your videos don't suggest the winds are too high. I'd definitely be looking at bringing the nose in to reduce some pressure off of the sail. It seems to be under too much stress, in my opinion. Find that happy place on the bridle. Just make sure you do both sides equally. Small changes make big differences.

[jasonmcmahon76]

I think it's more about trying to recover the kite from the ground

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[jasonmcmahon76]

15 minutes ago, Tim P. said:

 

That's the third center tee on there now for the short time you've had it?

 

I just accidentally double ordered 2 more.  So if four spares doesn't cure me of breaking it, I don't know what will!

[RobB]

I remember that Prism had issues with the center T on the E3, similar in design to what you're showing in your picture. It's really not a part that should be breaking. I would 're-engineer' the center T if it breaks again. That's what I did for my E3... after having the spine break unexpectedly in mid-air and all the sharp parts ripping up the sail, I decided to rebuild the kite so that wouldn't happen again. I basically replaced the E3 frame with a Quantum Pro frame, including the machined aluminum center T. I don't worry about breaking that !

The info on AOA can be found on page 27 of the Prism Field Guide...

http://ferob.com/kites/1995_prism_guide.pdf

 

 

[jasonmcmahon76]

I basically replaced the E3 frame with a Quantum Pro frame, including the machined aluminum center T. I don't worry about breaking that !

Oh, am considering reengineering alright. It seems a bit flimsy to me. I might try sourcing some stronger tubing. is the Quantum Pro part the same except aluminium?

[Exult]

14 hours ago, jasonmcmahon76 said:

Not sure how I broke it, maybe attempted ground recovery. Edit: On review of video, definitely a ground recovery.

 

I'd also recommend to be a bit careful with your snap stall practice. When I learned the snap stall I broke several LS in mid air. The fitting between the spine and the LSs was plastic, but very robust. You inserted the pultruded 6mm carbon tube into it (about an inch). The tube snapped just where the fitting ended. The tubes lacked an inner end plug by design. When I added them (about 4cm of 4mm carbon rods) the LSs stopped snapping. They only snapped when I snap stalled (unnecessarily) hard. Therefore perhaps the centre-T of your Quantum would last longer if you reduced the input of the snap stall through the lines, but moved faster towards the kite.

[SHBKF]

I don't have my Quantum any longer so I can't do some ground recovery attempts to give you any suggestions there.  I will eventually buy another as I really do like the Quantum.  I will say that some kites respond better to ground recovery maneuvers than others, at least in my experience anyway.  I have broken some expensive parts on learning ground recoveries.  I would suggest that for the next while you should walk to the kite & reset it for launch instead of breaking more parts.  I have been through the same thing for sure.  I would use that time to contemplate why I wound up on the ground & what I would do differently to land instead of crashing.  Hope I am not being too hard on you with that advice.  I do not ever (anymore) attempt to recover from a belly down nose toward me position.  The dreaded "Dead Launch" while occasionally doable, is a risky thing to try anytime.  I am currently flying a kite that is really easy for me to crash & do ground recoveries with, The Nirvana.  It is a bit pricey compared to the Quantum.  More experienced fliers could give more meaningful hints I am sure.  I do admire your determined efforts.

Keep on flyin' & postin', SHBKF  

[makatakam]

Is it possible that the stand-offs are just a smidge too long? Compare the amount of bow in the main spreader with stand-offs in and out. There should be more with than without, but not radically so. The length of the spreader will also affect the amount of bow in it. Make sure the upper spreader is, and stays, fully and firmly seated during flight, and also the lower spreader. The spreaders should be "difficult" to insert and remove. If any of the joints anywhere on the kite move, flex or rotate excessively during flight they will warp and weaken the entire structure.

I had an E3 for a couple of seasons, and a couple of other Prisms and never had issues with the center T's. Of course, I probably didn't spank them as hard as you guys do, but I did tons of recoveries with no ill effects. The amount of T's you're going through makes me believe there's something amiss with the geometry of the frame and/or sail. Check for fit and symmetry. Check both leading edge tubes for longitudinal cracks.

[jasonmcmahon76]

5 hours ago, Exult said:

I'd also recommend to be a bit careful with your snap stall practice. When I learned the snap stall I broke several LS in mid air. The fitting between the spine and the LSs was plastic, but very robust. You inserted the pultruded 6mm carbon tube into it (about an inch). The tube snapped just where the fitting ended. The tubes lacked an inner end plug by design. When I added them (about 4cm of 4mm carbon rods) the LSs stopped snapping. They only snapped when I snap stalled (unnecessarily) hard. Therefore perhaps the centre-T of your Quantum would last longer if you reduced the input of the snap stall through the lines, but moved faster towards the kite.

I suspect the issue is me being too rough attempting ground recoveries rather than inputs attempting snap stalls, but I will keep that in mind!

[jasonmcmahon76]

5 hours ago, SHBKF said:

 I will say that some kites respond better to ground recovery maneuvers than others, at least in my experience anyway.  I have broken some expensive parts on learning ground recoveries.  I would suggest that for the next while you should walk to the kite & reset it for launch instead of breaking more parts.  I have been through the same thing for sure.  I would use that time to contemplate why I wound up on the ground & what I would do differently to land instead of crashing.  Hope I am not being too hard on you with that advice.  I do not ever (anymore) attempt to recover from a belly down nose toward me position.  The dreaded "Dead Launch" while occasionally doable, is a risky thing to try anytime.

I think I will give ground recoveries a bit of a miss for a while (at least until more spares show up!).  

[jasonmcmahon76]

4 hours ago, makatakam said:

Is it possible that the stand-offs are just a smidge too long? Compare the amount of bow in the main spreader with stand-offs in and out. There should be more with than without, but not radically so. The length of the spreader will also affect the amount of bow in it. Make sure the upper spreader is, and stays, fully and firmly seated during flight, and also the lower spreader. The spreaders should be "difficult" to insert and remove. If any of the joints anywhere on the kite move, flex or rotate excessively during flight they will warp and weaken the entire structure.

I had an E3 for a couple of seasons, and a couple of other Prisms and never had issues with the center T's. Of course, I probably didn't spank them as hard as you guys do, but I did tons of recoveries with no ill effects. The amount of T's you're going through makes me believe there's something amiss with the geometry of the frame and/or sail. Check for fit and symmetry. Check both leading edge tubes for longitudinal cracks.

I was beginning to wonder if there is something wrong with the setup.  I still think that it's probably just a case of me being unsupervised and learning things the hard way!   I have pulled all the rods out and checked them, there are no issues there.  I don't know how far the lower spreaders are supposed to bow with the standoffs inserted. I don't think the amount they are bending is unreasonable.

[Edmond Dragut]

from your picture all seams to be right. going thru so many T connectors without to break any standoffs i think you are a lucky man and also i thing you hit the land to hard on wing, usually that connection for spars between the wings (under your finger) is a moving part specialty made on that way to avoid the breaking of the spars. is kipped in place by a small piece of rubber band and at to a hard sock is moving out and disconnect the spars collapsing the kite avoiding any breaks 

[RobB]

I maintain that there is an issue with that style of center T that Prism has been using in their kites in the last 5 or so years. I've heard of a number of broken T's, even back when the Prism forum was active. I don't know if the T or just the spine broke in my E3, I never found the T. To put it in perspective, I have never had a Center T fail on any other kite, and I've broken plenty of kites.

I would check with other pilots & kitemakers in Australia for a local source of parts, I'm sure you can fabricate something better than the ones that you've been breaking.

I haven't seen a modern Quantum up close (mine is over 10 years old). It looks like Prism may have changed the whole Center T setup. I'd need to see more pictures.

I think it was mentioned above, practice ground recoveries on 10-15 feet of line so you can see what's going on. 

[makatakam]

I don't see anything radically wrong in the photo, except that angle made by the lower spreader at the T. If that T is already damaged it would explain the angle. In most kites the lower spreader halves should be parallel to each other at the T, and the spine should be very near the ground when the kite is lying on its face. In other words, the middle should be closest to the ground.

The way to check the frame members for longitudinal cracks that may not be visible is to flex and twist gently and listen closely. It will talk to you if it's cracked.

By the way, the stake looks great.

[jasonmcmahon76]

4 hours ago, Edmond Dragut said:

from your picture all seams to be right. going thru so many T connectors without to break any standoffs i think you are a lucky man and also i thing you hit the land to hard on wing, usually that connection for spars between the wings (under your finger) is a moving part specialty made on that way to avoid the breaking of the spars. is kipped in place by a small piece of rubber band and at to a hard sock is moving out and disconnect the spars collapsing the kite avoiding any breaks 

 

2 hours ago, RobB said:

I maintain that there is an issue with that style of center T that Prism has been using in their kites in the last 5 or so years. I've heard of a number of broken T's, even back when the Prism forum was active. I don't know if the T or just the spine broke in my E3, I never found the T. To put it in perspective, I have never had a Center T fail on any other kite, and I've broken plenty of kites.

I would check with other pilots & kitemakers in Australia for a local source of parts, I'm sure you can fabricate something better than the ones that you've been breaking.

I haven't seen a modern Quantum up close (mine is over 10 years old). It looks like Prism may have changed the whole Center T setup. I'd need to see more pictures.

I think it was mentioned above, practice ground recoveries on 10-15 feet of line so you can see what's going on. 

I'm fairly certain that the tubing is aluminium, I wonder if I can find something like stainless steel in the same size?

I will suffer doing the walk of shame a few more times before I go back to trying ground recoveries.

28 minutes ago, makatakam said:

I don't see anything radically wrong in the photo, except that angle made by the lower spreader at the T. If that T is already damaged it would explain the angle. In most kites the lower spreader halves should be parallel to each other at the T, and the spine should be very near the ground when the kite is lying on its face. In other words, the middle should be closest to the ground.

The way to check the frame members for longitudinal cracks that may not be visible is to flex and twist gently and listen closely. It will talk to you if it's cracked.

By the way, the stake looks great.

The centre T already has a small bend in it, which is why there is a bit of an angle there. When I pulled all the rods out and checked them, I gave them all a little flexing.  I didn't hear anything, so I don't think I've cracked anything.  Yet.

Thank you!   I have been struggling to get a nice finish on the stake handle, a few more turns of light sanding and painting and I might be happy!

So, I went out to photograph some air force planes that were supposed to be flying around the bay this morning.   Complete fail.  They only sent one aircraft, it didn't fly where they said it would and so I have nothing to show for standing around on top of a cliff for an hour.  At least I didn't get a parking ticket!  On the plus side:  I got a call from the kite parts shop asking me about the order I put in that had 4 T pieces in it.  They had never heard of anyone ordering that many before!  They were surprised that I had managed to break two and bend a third in such a short time.   They only had three left in stock, so I've got all of them, and I got a second 40' ribbon tail instead.   I guess I had better make these three and a half t's last a while then!

Also on the plus side:  Since I was so close to the beach, I took my kite and found a nice deserted beach to play on with about 20km/h winds.   I had quite a few unintended arrivals and accompanying walks of shame, but I did not break anything!  I even got back into the car as the parking inspector got out of his!  Win!

I got some reasonably good footage this time, too.  Will get that up soon, I hope!

[Edmond Dragut]

i start to believe that T connection problem is because you use a wrong T connection and high winds, if you like kiting and winds are so strong on your area try to buy a vented one. aluminium and worse stainless steel connection will add weight to the tail changing the equilibrium center and fly characteristics,

[szobelda]

BTW - to my view the most important "must have accessory is simply another kite. At this stage you can buy an affordable stunt exactly for those days when things don't go your way.

I always go to fly with more than one kite. Repairing is part of the fun and you will always brake something....I prefer doing it at home and not waist "wind time"

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[Exult]

13 hours ago, jasonmcmahon76 said:

I'm fairly certain that the tubing is aluminium, I wonder if I can find something like stainless steel in the same size?

 

5 hours ago, Edmond Dragut said:

and worse stainless steel connection will add weight to the tail changing the equilibrium center and fly characteristics

Would the extra weight create a very pitch/roll up happy kite or is a (steel) centre-T far enough from the trailing edge to really have much of an effect? On the other hand if there would be an unexpected roll up I don't think that it would be the most urgent of problems. If you are into heavy re-engineering could one change the aluminum to a wrapped carbon tube to get something strong and light. Perhaps it would require reinforcement at the ends, so that it didn't crack lengthwise. But I guess the mod would take much time from flying.

 

13 hours ago, jasonmcmahon76 said:

I even got back into the car as the parking inspector got out of his!

Park the car just off-road, behind a bush or in the shade with a camouflage net over it... (no - this is not a serious recommendation)

 

13 hours ago, jasonmcmahon76 said:

On the plus side:  I got a call from the kite parts shop asking me about the order I put in that had 4 T pieces in it.  They had never heard of anyone ordering that many before!  They were surprised that I had managed to break two and bend a third in such a short time.   They only had three left in stock, so I've got all of them, and I got a second 40' ribbon tail instead.

I find it contributing to a relaxing atmosphere when people around doesn't need to only share the progress part of their stories, but also include the setbacks as well. And also a bonus for your positive thinking!

20 hours ago, jasonmcmahon76 said:

I suspect the issue is me being too rough attempting ground recoveries

By breaking the kite during ground recoveries do you mean while learning the cart wheel or "just anything that could get that kite off the ground"? For the cart wheel I'd say that you don't need much force. I've been working with this myself recently, when cart wheeling my Fazers (rather high aspect ratio and large kites).The way that I've found is to let the top wing back much, then make a long smooth soft pull on that line. Then the following input on the other wing can be very small. It almost feels like cheating through the cart wheel. It also looks like cheating IMO, but it works. Possibly you first need to pull the other line closest to the ground in advance to align the kite on the ground, but I'd need to be out on a field to remember/test/verify this set up part.

Also be careful with the stand offs. Normally you feel/see if a line is around the wing during start, but be careful when this get more difficult to spot: long lines, heavy kite or windy conditions, snow or high grass.