cjay

To be clear I wasn't saying that you said that. And I didn't intend to imply that either. I am aware that the AC was built to perform well from the turtle, so that statement was from a beginner perspective. I think it is a reasonable concern for a beginner considering a serious trick kite like the AC for general non trick directional flying in SUL wind whether it is suited for that type of flying or not. I will have to ask Lam if it is suitable for my application or not. Guess I won't know if I connect with a kite until I try it.

Wow that is a lot going on. Sorry about the the separation and the living situation. The cost of living is tough these days. I do a lot of boondocking also. 4x4 truck and canopy so lots of off road stuff. Hard to find good areas near Portland and not be city camping. I keep thinking there should be a way to improve the financial opportunities in the kite business so it could be a solid career choice for people, which would get more people involved, and drive the financial side of it. I was thinking trade schools for kite making, and competitive flying.

I was looking at it as a kite for general SUL flying around. Would be a pain if it kept getting stuck in a turtle randomly. I don't know how to identify aspect ratio, sail depth, or cut, and how they effect kite performance. I have read some articles about it but I don't understand it yet. I am interested in learning about it though. Does the Widow NG have a deep sail and a low cut? Are the; 7 SUL, Nirvana, Benson Deep Space also new school, deep sail, high cut kites? And the Blue Moon Mamba more of an older school design? (whatever that means)

JB, have you flown the AC SUL?

I hadn't considered the AC as a SUL choice until you talked about it. Sounds like a really good option. And it has a fairly versatile wind range also. Would be nice to have a few SUL kites. I have 85', and 100' lines, and find that I like the 85' lines the best. I can see the kite better, and still have a decent sized window.

That would be interesting. The 7 is a really cool looking kite, and the build quality sounds really good also. Sounds like the AC is more stable, and has more forward momentum than the PD under 3 without as much running. And it can handle some variable winds also.

This is the just the standard AC with a different bridle? And it flys easier at lower winds than the pro dancer and is more trickable? Heard that the AC is fairly precise as well, how does it compare to the pro dancer for precision? Btw, Good job describing your experiences flying these kites, it's an informative read.

Thought this list of some production kites was relevant here, since people might be coming to this thread to do research. I listed some basic specs as I could find them, and added info and comments that I have read or heard about them. Maybe it will be useful to someone. I listed them by brand, and by size from smallest to largest. I am not making any claims about these products, their quality, or the accuracy of the information. The performance details are opinion based from various places. There might be some errors in the list. Premier Premier vision – 5’3” (63”) Weight 7.5 oz. fiberglass frame. Ripstop Nylon fabric. 100' test low stretch polyester line. Wind range 5-20. hard to stall. Jewel – 5.5’ (65”) Weight 5.5 oz. 4mm solid carbon frame. Ripstop nylon fabric. 80lb spectra line. Wind range 3-18. Smaller version of the wolf, and widow. Quick and responsive. Addiction Pro – 6' (72”) – weight 6.4 oz, carbon frame. wind 4-20. not built as good as the original addiction. Too Fast. Twitchy. oversteers. Or maybe it is just sensitive to line inputs. Wolf NG – 6.71 (80.5") Weight 9 oz. Ripstop Nylon, Wrapped Carbon & 2400 Fiberglass. Oversteers. Magnum – 7.83’ (94") ( No Longer Made ) Weight 10 oz. Wrapped carbon. 30D Ripstop Polyester fabric. Wind 3-25. 150lb spectra line. slower, more pull, less oversteer, more of a precision kite. Widow NG – 8’ (96") Weight: 11 oz. (.687lbs) Wrapped carbon frame. Ripstop Polyester fabric? 150 lb. Test Spectra Line. Needs solid 5mph to fly, very strong pull at 12mph. I have found that 6-9mph seems to be the sweet spot for directional flying. Tracking is solid and crisp but response to quick succession turns is slow, removing the tail weight may help with this. Jon already has the tail weight maxed for what the kite benefits from but lowering it can make the kite less spongy. Some people fly with the stock 16g most of the time but drop it to 10 or completely when they want less tail spin and more responsive turn performance. Known to break the lower spreader at the T on the female end with crashes. Putting a few wraps of strapping tape on the outside of the female rod end seems to prevent this problem. Sail combined with the p-300 frame makes this one tough kite, the forgiving nature of the kite can make quick turn transitions lackluster, the tail weight comes loose from the shaft causing the keel strap to slide off to one side, and some people lose the weight. Spec contradictions as to whether it is; ripstop polyester or ripstop nylon fabric? Listed as ripstop polyester fabric on Premiers site, and as ripstop nylon on kitesandfunthings site, in reviews, and on other kite retailer sites. Jon T insists that it is ripstop nylon, and Premier stands by the claim that it is ripstop polyester. HQ Bebop - 4.75' (57") 4+5mm fiberglass frame. Ripstop Polyester fabric. 44lb 66ft Dyneema line. Wind range 9-24. 4 point bridle. Limbo 2 – 5’1” (61”) 5mm fiberglass frame. Ripstop polyester fabric. 90lb 65' line. wind 7-31. Good precision. High wind rating. Salsa 3 – 6.17’ (74”) 5mm Carbon and Fiberglass Hybrid. 100% Ripstop Polyester. 100lb 80ft Dyneema line. More entry level ballet precision. Not that great for tricks, Slow to turn Jive 3 – 6.41’ (77") Pultruded Carbon hybrid Frame. Ripstop Polyester fabric, 100lb 80ft Dyneema line. Better trick kite than salsa 3. Ion – 6.75’ (81") 6mm Carbon + Hybrid frame. Ripstop Polyester fabric. 130lb 80’ Dyneema line. Wind 7-37. Good T, better trick performer than jive 3, more advanced. Good precision. Shadow – 6’9” (81") 4mm Dynamic T12+4+5mm carbon. Icarex fabric. UL 2-12 mph. Does not come with lines or straps. Weighted tail UL trick kite. Slightly less pull on the lines than a PDSUL, loaded sail feeling. More tricky than the PDSUL. The wire weight inside the spine can be removed, and it will fly down to 1 1/2 - 2 mph. Some say use 65' 50lb lines. Others say it will break 50lb lines easily. Backspins well. Some people find it a bit 'twitchy' but much of this can be sorted with a different bridle. very spinny and takes a bit of time to adjust to with its smaller inputs. The Shadow has more trickability compared to the 4D. Maestro 3 – 7.21’ , carbon 6mm / Dynamic T15, Polyester fabric. Line: 80’ x 130lb dyneema. strong Puller, weighted stunt kite. Skydog kites (hard to get parts for?) Thunderstruck – 5.79’ (69.5") Loud, pulls hard, cheap line set. Freebird – 6’2” (74”) 6mm carbon frame. Wind range 5-20. Nice buzzing sound, slower forward speed. Decent line set. Black Dog UL - 6.41' (77") ( No Longer Made ) Carbon fiber frame. Ripstop polyester fabric. Wind range 2-10 MPH. Light, low wind kite. Said to track well. Jammin – 7.16’ (86” x 37”) 6mm pultruded carbon fiber frame. Ripstop nylon fabric. 3 point standard bridle. spars are sub par and tend to break at the t-piece with aggressive flying. Offshore wind, spins fast, is a fast kite. Dream on – 7.25’ (87” X 35.5”) Glorified beginner kite. Team kite, flies the best of skydog kites, good precision, well mannered, noisy, is the least tricky, better for inland wind. Low wind 5-20 mph. 6 to get going, Fast at 10. made for precision more than tricks. Crossfire 2 - 7.58’ (91" x 38") high aspect ratio, weighted kite, not good precision, more trick oriented Prism 4D - 4.83' (58") High Modulus Micro carbon frame, icarex, polyester, mylar, 50'x50# dyneema line. 0-15 mph wind rating. Basically a small lightweight low wind kite. The 4D is small and very twitchy. It manages low wind slightly better and is very portable. 4D is very capable in ultra light winds, but it is a small kite so it does everything rapidly and takes a bit of concentration to keep it smooth. Not as tricky as the HQ Shadow. Jazz – 5.16' (62”) fiberglass carbon rods, ripstop nylon fabric. polyester lines. Prism Nexus – 5.33’ (64”) Quantum – 7’ ( 84”) Pultruded carbon, wrapped carbon. Ripstop Nylon fabric. 85' x 150 lbs Dyneema lines. Designed to be strong for beginners – heavy – not as good in light winds – slow E3 – 7.58’ (91”) Skyshark P100, P200 Wrapped carbon. Icarex Ripstop Polyester, Mylar Laminate fabric. 85' x 150 lbs Dyneema lines. Zephyr – 7.71' (92.5”) Skyshark P100, 3PT wrapped carbon. Icarex polyester and Mylar laminate fabric. Low wind 85' x 150 lbs Dyneema line. Most flyers consider it a Light, rather than an UL. Is not easy to fly in 1-3. The Zephyr is truly disappointing in unsteady SUL/UL winds. Gliding feel to it until 10+ it starts to drive. Hypnotist – 7.83’ (94”) Pultruded carbon / wrapped carbon frame. Ripstop nylon fabric. 85' x 150 lbs Dyneema line. Designed to be strong for beginners – heavy – not as good in light winds. Quantum pro sail, with quantum frame. Strong, fly’s good, turns slow.

It occurred to me that you might be talking about the Sturdydesigns. Saber II kite by Will Sturdy. I read a kite review about them when I first was looking into kites.

Interesting. Thanks. I wondered why they stopped making the Aura. Sounds like it fly's down to about the PDSUL wind range, and is less sensitive than the Ocius. Guess the larger kites are more popular. I will have to keep an eye out for one. PDSUL next for me though.

JB - Do you happen to know how the Aura SUL compared to the Ocius SUl as far as handling in SUL wind?

No I didn't get that impression. You called it right a while back, the Pro Dancer is what I am looking for in a super ultra light kite.

For just flying or when trying to do tricks? Hard to imagine the "it" kite for low wind not flying easily in low wind. I have read that the PDSUL is one of the few kites that will actually fly in 1-3 mph without much work, but that it has low forward speed. That kite sounds really interesting. Too bad they aren't available. I read that the Benson Phantom UL, and SKD Sevens are more trick oriented and are hard to learn on, so they might not be for me yet. I need something that is easy to fly, and doesn't take a lot of work to maintain forward speed in 1-3 mph wind, and is precise. I don't really care about the trick ability.

What issues are those? I am considering the Pro Dancer for a UL kite. You are right, it might be exactly what I am looking for. The other SUL kites I am considering are: Blue Moon Mamba UL. SKD Seven UL - Not easy to learn on. UL kites that I have read are good but may not be available: Benson Phantom (Elite) Pro UL – 8.366ft (100.39”) High apect ratio delta, forgiving, quiet. Flys as low as PDSUL. Great at axles. Bensons are too tricky (not very easy to learn on) Gliding / Sliding feel. flies down to the same bottom end as the Prodancer SUL fully 2PT framed. Skyburner Ocius SUL - 84” (7ft.) 4.8 oz. Won’t fly in as low wind as PDSUL or Aura. Trickable, mid-size, straight-tracking. Great for solo or team flying. Blue Moon Exile UL - 90" (7' 5") Its a UL, but it flys lower (with a loaded sail) than most full-sized SULs

I have a Widow NG, and a Prism E2. I really like my E2 using a skybond 85' x 100# lineset, but i have read alot of negative feedback about the E3 for some reason. I think the E3 went to a heavier frame to make it stronger and that changed the feel. The Prism Hypnotist has a Quantum pro sail, with a regular Quantum frame. So the frame is stronger and heavier for beginner crashes. There seems to be some negative opinions about the Hypnotist for some reason, which is wierd since the Quantum, and Quantum pro generally get positive feedback other than the weight of the quantum. I read where someone put a quantum pro frame in a hypnotist sail and was ok with it. Seems like i read that the quantum pro is more of a precise tracking team type of kite. Which sounds like fun.