Hedgewarden

Well said, Duane, well said. However, the truth-full link between fear and anger will challenge some people's political views if fully understood. So, let the rest of us try to keep this personal and not political. I have not received such warnings myself, although I have stepped over the boundaries a few times on these (Kitelife, Revolution) forums. Still, I have not been messaged or responded to by any "angry" people yet. (Did I just do another bad thing? - If this post lasts for three days, I guess not.) Anyway, I have nothing of real value to add to your post, Duane, except "most excellent".

Dang, that does it. I've been lucky to get 4 hours/month this winter. I'm ready to hop a bus to Floridah!

Just a quick note. I always untie and retie when adjusting lines. That keeps the ends a bit neater, and the loops equal. Most line sets I've bought (mostly coming with a kite), and all that I make, the end of the spectra is melted to form a little ball just protruding from the sleeving. Easy to pull the lines up equal that way, retie the knots, clip off the excess, and remelt the new end. Maybe I'm just more compulsive. BTW, as I understand it, somewhere during the process of sealing line sets, the Above It All kite shop in Long Beach burned down - so be careful, or at least not as careless as one former-employee. (Correction, they did not burn "down", but burned out last year. They are now back in the refurbished store.)

One eensie weensie pickie on the winding method: If you wind straight around (not figure 8) there will be one twist for each revolution. This is what I learned as a novice dual flier. Impatient to unwind, I just dropped the handle (remember those little plastic handles they start you with before straps?), and held the line as the winder rotated to the ground. Exactly one twist resulted for each of the (seemingly) 2000+ turns. Thus, the going to the figure 8 winding method. HOWEVER, the pickie does not count if you unwrap as explained (the same way you unwrap from a figure 8 wrap), holding the line card so it does not rotate. The single twist/wrap is so trivial, it might as well not be there. And is complete canceled when unwinding. I like the straight wrap now - about 8-10 straight turns followed by a figure 8 turn or two (as JB mentioned). The several interspersed figure 8s seem to keep the turns locked more neatly. And the straight turns do not slide off the winder as easily, causing tangles because some lines are out-of-sync with others. Again, maybe the interspersed figure 8 winds help synchronize and avoid that type of tangle. Any-hoo, try it if you haven't yet. iQuad is sharing a great tip.

Hi Duane, Here's the rev-neo-experienced engineer's suggestions based on reading and some experience... The suggestion that 90# lines are all you need is pretty darn good - flying a *vented* in high winds reduces the pull, and the Laser Pro Gold 90# lines are so light and slick that going to 50# in light winds will be only a small advantage. I like the combination of 50', 80', and 120'. And, (50+80+120) x 4 = 1000 feet - so sorry Laser Pro does not sell 1000 ft bulk like Shanti does. The 50', 80', 120' combination is also very close to a geometric progression. Most sensory impressions are exponential (i.e. geometric progressions), such as sound, light, and flying in the bliss zone. I have 50# 50' lines that are nice in crowded areas and low winds - so as not to wipe out too many kiddie spectators with my inexperience. So, my suggestions, in order: 90# 80' (give or take 5' or 10') 90# 120' (standard for flying with others - which I haven't done yet. Could be first choice for some) 90# 50' (for learning control and faster responses close up, and for lighter winds, crowded flying venues.) 50# 50' (for light winds, close areas.) 150# 80' (if you really are leaning back on your kite's, pull, or stacking kites.) ..the rest of the list depends entirely on your experience and where you want to go. I started to cut my own "complete set of 9" (50', 80', 120') x (50#, 90#, 150#) . Part way through the project, I decided the 90# pretty much handled all the situations, since venting reduces the pull in high winds, and 50# lines were only slightly lighter. The difference in line strength seems less important in quads than in duals - the latter having pulled me skidding across the sand in 20+ mph winds, and falling out of the sky on 80# lines in light winds. Other lengths, 100', 40', or whatever, I would consider special situation lines - you'll know when they are needed. Now, all I have to do is get JB or Watty to teach me what the heck I'm doing, or should be doing, flying.

Duane - to clarify "THIS IS NOT A RACE". In fact, last one to die may be considered the winner. It is based on total air-time, I believe. Air time = joy time. I have the SF 2.5 trio, UL, Std, Vented. Love the last two. Amazed at what JB does with the UL. So here's the deal friend - if I wind [sic] win (slim chance) I'll donate the kite back to.... HMMM maybe... 1. A forum Rev flier with no dual line co-addiction. 2. or - 1st person who professes his favorite kite is a Quantum. 3. or - JB's second draw choice. PS: beer. I have been brewing my own for the last two years. Extremely yummy compared to the pasteurize commercialized brews. Not so good for the pottus-bellius. PPS: I usually judge kites by the way their flying character matches my desires at the moment. But there is the feminine approach to consider too (OK, men can also appreciate..) the Foxes are all just darn pretty!!

Whew!!! After you threatened to name it "Howard", I became emotionally issued. ("Issue" is, as I understand it, the modern word for what us old-timers called a "problem") I wholeheartedly approve of the name, and the namesake. Elvira was a class act! Keep her up. Duane.

James, One additional idea. Revolution (quad kites) has demo-kites and instructors at most(?) kite festivals. They are very helpful and anxious to let you try a quad kite under a little tutelage. Be sure to take advantage of any opportunity. Fair winds.

I'd be careful with a lot of the advice. Most people want you to validate their choices by convincing you to do likewise. Assume me included Looking at my history, the best buy I ever made was an X-Kites DC Sport 70. Best because it is VERY inexpensive (lots on eBay and at your local kite shop for less than $30), and because it is fairly slow and easy to learn the basics of Dual line flight. It is perfectly adequate to learn the basics, then you can move on to the better kites everyone suggests. The DC Sport 60 will be a bit faster, but can be obtained for less than $20. That will get you started, or you may decide you don't like sports kites, or don't like dual line. If you decide to proceed, then check out the other recommendations. There are much better kites, but none can teach a beginner the basics better these kites. By basics, I mean straight line flights, wind-window edge stalls, loops, spins, basic landings. You need to learn these before the "slack line tricks" anyway, so go inexpensive until you are ready to proceed. Then gift the DC Sport to a friend who might appreciate it. I would suggest avoiding most "beginner kites" at first. They are usually smaller, faster, and a little harder to learn the basics. (AND more expensive than my recommendations.) When you start to learn "tricks", you will want to skip right to the intermediate-advanced kites, 6 to 8 feet width (3/4 to "full" size), see the above recommendations. The only small kite I like flying is the Micron - very small, very fast, very not-novice. Also, quite expensive for its size. I use it to test my old reflexes. Note: I and my wife and brother and nephew flew the DC Sport kite for only part of a season. I gifted it to my wife's son who had a blast flying it on his vacation. Not bad for the price. It's frame is fiber glass, heavy but usable and rugged. It frequently "popped" frame members, but that gives you valuable experience landing a crippled kite and reassembling it (I am not kidding! Most kites will pop frame members, but it does not damage the kite if you can get it to the ground without smashing it.) By "pop" I mean members come apart at their joints, which are simply slide together tenon joints. No damage that needs repairs. As for Dual V. Quad - I love them both. I do not do the "slack line" tricks in duals - I like more dance-like flying :P So the transition to Quads was not as hard for me as for some. I would suggest a cheap dual (there are NO cheap usable quads) to start. If you really like kites, then *definitely* try a quad. BTW - talking to one of the kite store owners in Long Beach, he agreed with these specific ideas for newbies. Fer Watt Its Wert..

Yup, and Spz0, your's is even closer to mine - pattern and geography wise. Might meet you someday at Long Beach or Delta Park. We'll make everyone jealous.

After watching a seller relist a vintage Rev II (solid blue) many times, starting at $150 + $10 shipping, the seller finally hit my price point ($105 total) on Christmas. A "sign", I am sure, that I should buy myself a present.

Duane, WTF? Definitely not to be named Howard! How about "My Precious"? Just plain "Rainbow"? "Sunny" (my wife)? Hmmm. Your wife? ....................... Here's a hint on WTF, if you need it: WTF might be "What The " Anyway, don't want John to have to pull the messages.

Looks great, Duane. After the holidays, I'll probably spend a bit of "cabin fever" time redoing my leaders. Some good tips above. And, I believe the 150# bridle line will be just the ticket for sleeving also. Just one item - with a long upper leader, knots in the lower leader make more sense if they allow fine tuning - e.g. as few as two knots in the lower leader at half the distance of the upper knots provides twice the number of upper-to-lower offsets. But such fine tuning is way beyond my ability to sense so far. I'm still working on inverted hover with about 1 hr total air time/month. I love the colored knots. A great idea. Please do not patent them, as I plan to steal the idea. The following belong to the internet, not computers. 40 years in computers, and I am only now learning the language "texting". OMG: Oh My Goodness WTF: Where's The Feathers IMNSHO: In My NOT So Humble Opinion (hate false modesty) LOL: Lot's of Laughs :) 73 and TNX for the ideas.

Lookin' good, Duane. As for the leader lines, I wouldn't be too particular about the thickness or exact fiber. I'm using scraps of bridle line about as thick as yours on the upper, and the original Rev short single knot leader on the bottom, which is slightly thinner. My knots are 1.25 to 1.5 inches apart. I haven't had enough experience to know the ideal offsets for different situations, but I did move the lines by two knots one day, and greatly changed the handling. I think the 1.25 inch spacing is too close, but 2.50 inch spacing would probably be too much for fine tuning. I have only one knot in the lower leader, but some use a few close knots in the lower for fine tuning. Once I get more experience, I will put some longer, more carefully knotted leaders on my handles. Until then, my leaders look almost identical to yours.

Skipping past the usual passing childhood kite experience, I bought a Trilby back around 1987 (??) in Pismo Beach. I never saw one fly, but the idea of controlling the flight was intriguing. Unfortunately, I was never able to do much with it - I was trying to let the lines out as the kite rose just as one does for a single line. It hung around the house for several years, then was "gifted". It would be interesting now to try it again. However, that was not the beginning of my addiction. Attending the 2007 WSIKF, I and my wife decided to try a dual line kite. Afraid of larger kites, we bought a New Tech Ignitor. A friendly passing stranger showed us how to set up the lines full length before launching the kite. Within an hour, we were "ignited", and rushed back to buy the larger kite we had considered - an XL Sport 70". Considering the size, handling, and price - the Sport is the kite I would most recommend to anyone that wants to try out dual line kites. It's cheap, but it provides the basic learning experience and, is slower than the usual small size "beginner kites". At the 2008 WSIKF, I had a bag full of duals (mostly eBay bargains), and was becoming more intrigued at the quad demonstrations by iQuad and other groups at the festival. Rev kites were providing "try out" experience, so I waited in line to try a quad. Just as it was my turn to try the quad, the instructors were all murmuring about "John was coming" or something. Anyway, this wirey macho guy steps into the area where the demo flights took place, grabbed the kite that I was scheduled to try out, flew some warm-ups, and hauled the kite away to the exhibition field. So... JB made that the year I did NOT get quad fever. OK, it was not JB's fault the instructors never showed up again afterward - even though they promised they would be "back soon". I bought a New Tech Spirit later that year - special clearance at GWTW - probably a display model. I had only partial success with it - it seemed awfully reluctant to fly in less than 10 mph winds, but that may just have been me. At the 2009 Lincoln city festival, Rev provided the chance to fly again, with Ben the only instructor. I tried the "try-out" again, and this time got into the air with a Rev. I managed to snag the lines of a quad line foil flier, who was warming up for his demonstration. Brought both kites to the ground, but thanks to my quick thinking... well luck, no damage. Anyway, Ben was handing out discount coupons to anyone that tried the Rev. That and excellent prices at the Gomberg's shop in the Lincoln City outlet center gave me an excuse to plunge in - with an EXP ready-to-fly plus DVD. I've added a standard 1.5 mid-vent to expand the upper range, and race rods to expand the lower range. And here I am. I'm addicted to both dual (non-tricky ballet style) and quad. Due to my advanced age (somewhat over 45) the quads are easier on my bod. But I find the duals are still more graceful and predictable, the quads are potentially more controllable and have a greater repertoire of movements. My analogy: duals are like airplanes - always moving forward to stay in the air (or performing scary tricks out of a stall). Quads are like helicopters - analogy should be obvious. My greatest joy now is coaxing the Revs to fly as gracefully as the duals. My second greatest is to fly my favorite duals. And, today I got a half hour of good air time on my race-rod equipped EXP - extremely rare around home.

Well, as a newbie on quads a bit behind Guru4Tru (Duane) ... here is my take. I stood beside Ben as he (swoosh) thr.. (whack) ew his (zoom) k.. (sheemp) i... (snick) t... (thimp) e (loeik) around on short lines for a few seconds. I asked him if he always held his hands horizontal, palms down, when the kite was inverted. He said "definitely". I've done a little practicing (Northwest weather is sh... now), and find the position logical. I keep my hands oriented to the kite, except when the kite is inverted, as my arms do not have 180 degree rotational ability. So the palms-down position, brake lines outward, seems quite reasonable. However, I have noticed that as I practice, the above rules naturally become "bent". When I am "into" the kite, and not concentrating on my hand positions, my hands (and arms) start bending the rules with quite good results. So, at this point, I would advise keeping the hands aligned with the kite, when the kite is oriented upward, left, or right. Put the hands horizontal, palms down, when the kite is oriented downward. If you fly a circle, this does require a quick flip of one wrist as the kite goes through 3 or 9 o'clock. Then fly and gradually forget the rules as your body and the kite connect. Watching the good fliers, their orientation does not seem to be clockwork and their hands usually not parallel - and I doubt they could tell you afterward how their hands were oriented. (Well, except JB who insists he holds his hands at 30 degrees - I'll have to check his videos )

Duane , Duane , Duane The only offense was that you thought you needed to explain. I have an equally lovely dog, but I have no idea where to get another one like him (unknown mix breed stray rescue). And my wife is - ALL MINE!!! My Black Rainbow 1.5 mid-vent (not a "B") came unaccompanied by handles and such. Your B will have a different panel layout, but the same color progression - I'm sure you know. I have two sets of Rev handles: Obtained with my EXP, one set measures 11" hole to hole. I think these are "standard" handles. Obtained with my Spirit Quad, the other measures 9.75" hole to hole. These were provided by GWTW to sweeten a deal on a close-out. I don't know if these correspond to the 13" and 11" handles respectively or not. The metal core might measure 13" and 11" end-to-end before being bent. So, like Duane, I'm curious blue Fair winds.

Hmm, I have NO top of the line kites. But among the consumer grade kites, of which I have picked up too many following eBay auctions during the winter months when there is no good flying... Premier: Nighthawk. For the price and size, a great kite for newbies like me to learn tricks. Also, decent precision. Good low wind performance too. I doubt anything can beat it at the price. Fun to fly. Flying Wings: Silver Fox. These always amaze me when I return to them - great precision. Now exploring the "blue bead" settings for tricks. Includes my only vented. Premier: Addiction. For the price, a great learning kite. It does much more than it should, and is fun to fly. My recommendation for the first "step-up" or share with newbie friend kite. HQ: Gallego. This is my favorite kite for ballet. My usual "go to" kite. HQ: Phoenix Supreme. I plan to learn more tricks using this kite. HQ: Breeze. My only good UL, it always comes through when my other kites are grounded. Well, I cannot order my preferences any more than I can say licorice is better or worse than chocolate. I would hate to lose any of these kites. -Howard

Hey, I like the cone idea. I have six of 'em. Should improve my chances of touching one. So, the goofy old man with six traffic cones, smacking the ground with a Black Rainbow vented 1.5, looking lost at Kite Henge, will probably be me. I look grouchier than I am. (Usually ) Am willing to share traffic cones for lessons.

I've found, when carrying my 6' kite bag slung across my back, walking through the State Park to the beach, that it is beneficial to explain to passers-by: "No, this is not a rifle, just a bunch of kites." Curious frowns usually change to smiles. We don't have life-guards on WA beaches - you swim, you die - bad rip currents. However, I would not like to explain the rocket launcher tubes to anyone.

Let me be the first (on the forum anyway) to say: What a lovely couple! The love shows, and inspires us all. Best wishes for the years to come, may they be innumerable.

Hey Dodd.. Just checked some of the music samples -- I like. They are going into my MP3 player for field music. Get some CD's out there for Voodoo fans - it doesn't take too much to self publish now-a-days.

I spent a few hours at OSOW at Long Beach, WA on 10-10 and 10-11. The turn out was fairly sparse, but I know there were lots of other things going on this weekend. So, just polling... who was there besides me and Theresa? (Thanks again for the line set fabrication supplies - one 120' 90# "team length" set ready to fly with someone else.) I counted only a few sleds, two Revs, a half dozen or so duals (several very talented tricksters) The single line fliers had some nice stuff up. The sports kite fliers were few. The black rainbow Rev was mine, and the blue/white Gallego on Sunday. Quite a few new and first time fliers turned out - HURRAY. The venue is not intimidating. Didn't get their names, but flying next to me were a pair of future champs - maybe 6 yrs old(?). So, OSOW fly for peace ... anyone besides several nice large to medium kite displays, a few experience sports fliers, and several handfuls of newbies who may have stumbled in by accident? Oh yeah - and the traction foil flier that kept getting dragged closer and closer to my back.

Choccy's "for hovering it can mean constant minute wiggling movements" confirms my observations of: 1. JB holding a precise hover down to the audience line at WSIKF after his performance. I noticed he constantly vibrated/wiggled his controls. 2. In electro-mechanical control theory, sometimes an oscillation is added to the feedback control path to lessen the error. This is called "dither". However, it mainly addresses "stick-tion" (or static friction) by keeping the mechanical parts in constant motion since dynamic friction is less than static friction. 3. So, I tried wiggling, and it definitely helps hold a steady hover. If there is "stick-tion" in the system, it is evidently in the human part of the feedback loop - the part that causes over-control by waiting a fraction of a second to correct. Without the dither, feedback requires the visual recognition that the kite is departing from the desired location, the conscious determination of the correction command, and the execution of the command. (Which often is too late and too large.) Apparently by dithering, the feedback is provided by the tension/pressure sensors almost directly to the muscles to correct the departure from ideal. So, after over-analyzing the whole problem - I took Ben's advice: suit up with my MP3 player and fly to music. Amazingly, quad kites seem to respond to a non-analytical mind set - a Zen state of shared consciousness with the kite. Duallies are also more fun to fly to music, but quads seem to almost demand the physical-spiritual connection instead of the mental-commanding connection. Ahh - perhaps the explanation why dual-line kites are addicting, but quad-line kites are more addicting. Just rambling...

I bought the kite from The Kite Connection. Yes, they have some pix of the color on their eBay listings, but I would suggest calling them to select exactly what kite and options you want. The color is "Black Rainbow", and is a color combination designed and ordered by Dave of TKC. TKC is, according to my research, a long established kite retailer run by Dave Shenkman, a long time master kite flier and supporter. My contacts with Dave prove him to be a nice guy to deal with - both knowledgeable and price-wise very competitive. Sorry if I sound like a shill for TKC, but I'm just thrilled with my new kite. So, folks, design away!