Rev 1.5 SUL - Toray+Chikara...?

[Traveller]

Hi2all,

it's me again...

I noticed that both the 1.5SLE & SS are made with Ventex (Toray) ripstop while the SUL (or at least mine) is a combo of Ventex for the vertical color sections & Icarex for the outer & central sections (black, in my case).

In other words, I have the Rasberry-Blue-Black combo & the black is in Icarex while the blue & Rasberry is in Ventex. I bought it ~ a month ago, but there is no telling how old (model year) it really is & those colors have been around since 2000-2001 (& no, this one doesn't have mylar - which is a good thing, for an SUL!)....

Can anyone w/an SUL check to see if they have the same mix of sail materials please?

For reference, Ventex are rectangles (19x8mm) with double-stitching along the longer side only & Icarex are 10mm squares. While I'm at it, Chikara nylon has 5mm squares. (Regarding Icarex, hell if I know how to tell the difference between P-31 (31G/M2), P-38 (38g/M2) & PC-31 (strength of P-38 @31g/M2)...

Edit: My bad, the SUL is a mix of Ventex & Icarex, not Chikara! I caught this when I inspected one of my Flexfoil Stackers. 10mm squares look small - that is, until you compare them to 5mm, lol!

None the less, my question still stands - are all SUL mad up of this interesting mix...? Thx & sorry for the foulup!

Edited May 24, 2004 by Traveller

[Penny Lingenfelter]

Whoa.. wrong topic for me. If it' fly's I call it a kite....

BB

Penny.... slowly backing out of this topic.

[Traveller]

Whoa..  wrong topic for me.  If it' fly's I call it a kite....

ROFL! Well Penny, please go ahead and send me all of your Revs & in turn, I'll send you a whole bunch of objects that fly... (you may need a hurricane to get some of 'em to fly, but they will all fly)....

The difference between a Rev & a knock-off that doesn't even come close to the "feel" of a Rev is in the construction details & materials selected! Details such as tensile strength, permeability & flutter effect... And of course, lots of trial & error

But go on an' run away, go fly your multi-million dollar Rev (factor in the R&D that went into the fabric - in which the kiting industry can thank the sailing industry), the spars (NASA, anyone?) & even the bleedin' bridles that now a days are designed using a computer & a lot of chaos-theory-based algorithms ( )

Yes, preserve your innocence & run away, while you still can

[Penny Lingenfelter]

And I have an eversion (sp) to sewing needles after having one through my finger for several hours.

I choose not to deal with the materials or the politics.. I just want to be a kiteflyer. It's a long term goal.

I don't charge for the R & D of indoor flying.. I just do it.

Actually I probably know a little more then I need to.

So are you saying each material will have it's own size square, regardless of the weight of the material?

BB

Penny

[Traveller]

So are you saying each material will have it's own size square, regardless of the weight of the material?

I'm not %100 certain how to read your question but I was planning to* post a table I created for myself that shows the various properties of available kite fabrics (*Except that I couldn't upload load the little bugger - and to paraphrase MasterOForums John, the forum's quite fussy about what it uploads....)

What I can say (& maybe accidentaly answer your question ) is that each fabric has different properties that affect its weight, strength, stretch & longevity. In a nutshell:

Icarex PC-31 Polyester weighs 31g/m2, uses 10x10mm, double-threaded ("rip-stop") stitching, is only coated on one side. These properties in turn give Icarex it's character which is a low-strech material that withstands air/H2O permeability very well, but given the large (10mm) thread spacing is (relatively) prone to tearing.

Ventex Polyester weighs 34,5g/m2, uses an 18x9mm stitch pattern (only doubled on the long sides), is only coated on one side. Ventex is even more prone to tearing than Icarex, is more permeable (appearantly their coating is not as effective as Icarex) and (somehow) stretches even less than Icarex.

Chikara Nylon weighs 41.2 g/m2 in part due to its closely-spaced, 5x5mm double-stitch pattern and the fact that it is coated on both sides. Chikara is therefore highly tear-resistant & permeability is very, very low! On the other hand, nylon stretches a good deal more than poly (2x more than Ventex).

Chikara is hence an ideal fabric for power kites where streching's actually a good thing where wind-gusts are a way of life, not to mention the ability to shed H2O all the better! Icarex & Ventex are crisp, accurate, light fabrics ideal for framed sport-kites in professional kite-flyer hands (those that tend to avoid trees, unplanned groundwork, etc.... )

Icarex seems to be a dream-come-true in terms of weight, air -n- tear resistance, however it stretches a lot more than Ventex, not to mention costs (or costed) twice as much. Ventex seems to be the fabric of choice if the designer wants to limit stretch (& save a few bucks while they're at it).

Given the above, I will make the assumption that while the designers @Revolution normally use Ventex, they may have chosen to work with Icarex on the SUL - on the panels where stretch is less critical & hence shaved an extra gram off the weight... Or maybe they wanted those panels to stretch a little to help cope with the upper wind-range, or maybe they ran out of Ventex when they produced my SUL... (lol, which is why my question still stands!!!)

Last but not least, I'm not a kite designer, I don't have a fabric fetish & 97.3% of the info posted above was (un-scientifically) extrapolated from a single article in the Apr/May '99 issue of Kite Passion, so I will only take credit for the mistakes

cu,

[CLTKiter]

I have a question...

Is Icarex pronounced Ike-a-rex or Ick-a-rex?

Trav, I have a SUL (the color of my avatar). Next time I get near a ruler with it, I'll see what the material is and let you know...

Doug

[Traveller]

Next time I get near a ruler with it, I'll see what the material is and let you know...

Doug, you won't need a ruler - either all panels are made up of rectangles or some are perfect squares. Thx, btw (even if you are making fun of me )

[Progcraft]

So are you saying each material will have it's own size square, regardless of the weight of the material?

I'm not %100 certain how to read your question but I was planning to* post a table I created for myself that shows the various properties of available kite fabrics (*Except that I couldn't upload load the little bugger - and to paraphrase MasterOForums John, the forum's quite fussy about what it uploads....)

What I can say (& maybe accidentaly answer your question ) is that each fabric has different properties that affect its weight, strength, stretch & longevity. In a nutshell:

Icarex PC-31 Polyester weighs 31g/m2, uses 10x10mm, double-threaded ("rip-stop") stitching, is only coated on one side. These properties in turn give Icarex it's character which is a low-strech material that withstands air/H2O permeability very well, but given the large (10mm) thread spacing is (relatively) prone to tearing.

Ventex Polyester weighs 34,5g/m2, uses an 18x9mm stitch pattern (only doubled on the long sides), is only coated on one side. Ventex is even more prone to tearing than Icarex, is more permeable (appearantly their coating is not as effective as Icarex) and (somehow) stretches even less than Icarex.

Chikara Nylon weighs 41.2 g/m2 in part due to its closely-spaced, 5x5mm double-stitch pattern and the fact that it is coated on both sides. Chikara is therefore highly tear-resistant & permeability is very, very low! On the other hand, nylon stretches a good deal more than poly (2x more than Ventex).

Chikara is hence an ideal fabric for power kites where streching's actually a good thing where wind-gusts are a way of life, not to mention the ability to shed H2O all the better! Icarex & Ventex are crisp, accurate, light fabrics ideal for framed sport-kites in professional kite-flyer hands (those that tend to avoid trees, unplanned groundwork, etc.... )

Icarex seems to be a dream-come-true in terms of weight, air -n- tear resistance, however it stretches a lot more than Ventex, not to mention costs (or costed) twice as much. Ventex seems to be the fabric of choice if the designer wants to limit stretch (& save a few bucks while they're at it).

Given the above, I will make the assumption that while the designers @Revolution normally use Ventex, they may have chosen to work with Icarex on the SUL - on the panels where stretch is less critical & hence shaved an extra gram off the weight... Or maybe they wanted those panels to stretch a little to help cope with the upper wind-range, or maybe they ran out of Ventex when they produced my SUL... (lol, which is why my question still stands!!!)

Last but not least, I'm not a kite designer, I don't have a fabric fetish & 97.3% of the info posted above was (un-scientifically) extrapolated from a single article in the Apr/May '99 issue of Kite Passion, so I will only take credit for the mistakes

cu,

Hi Traveller.

Would you mind if I repost your post over at kitebuilder.com? That is some good, usefull information there. And, would you mind sending me that table you mention in the beginning?

Thanks,

P.

[Traveller]

Would you mind if I repost your post over at kitebuilder.com?  That is some good, usefull information there.  And, would you mind sending me that table you mention in the beginning?

Hi, Progcraft!

But of course, post at will! I however would again like to point out that I cannot guarantee that my post is error-free! Ditto for my

 table...  

I will immediately (try to) mail it to you via the forum's email entry - assuming that works. If not, please PM me your email address, thx.

greetz

[CLTKiter]

OK Trav. Sorry that it took me so long, but had a busy evening last evening. Refer to my avatar:

- Blue outside triangle - 9x18 mm

- yellow stripe - 4x4 mm or 5x5 mm -- can't tell for sure

- pink stripe - 4x4 mm or 5x5 mm

- blue stripe - 9x18 mm

- white center - 9x18

Now, what does all this mean? Does it mean that Rev has good design for an SUL? Is there some concern for wear or damage?

I'm kinda like Penny. I just fly 'em. But it's interesting... Maybe I'll start building some day.

Thanks, Doug

[CLTKiter]

Oh, and my [serious] question still stands (unless I missed it somewhere). Is icarex pronounced Ike-a-rex or ick-a-rex?

Thanks, Doug

[Traveller]

...Blue outside triangle - 9x18 mm, yellow & pink stripes - 5x5, blue stripe - 9x18 , white center - 9x18... Now, what does all this mean?

Doug, thx for taking the time

As I am in EU, there will always be somewhat of a delay between replies, so don't sweat it

(& more importantly, this is a forum, not a help desk & no one should/can expect an SLA (Service Level Agreement) turnaround time ;-)

I have methodically extrapolated the information from your research (nerd-alert!) and noting that your SUL is almost the exact opposite of mine in panel-to-fabric selection, I have deduced the following....

The good news is that all SULs are built with a mix of Ventex & Icarex* fabrics. This rules out the possibility that they ran out of Ventex when building my SUL. The odd news is that Revolution's impartial to which panels are in which fabric...!

This implies that they are looking to shave 1.5~1.8gs off the SUL but do not take advantage (however little it may be) of selecting the more tear-resistant (Icarex) or less prone to stretch (Ventex) for specific panels.

So I have to assume that they bought a bunch of Icarex fabric to complement their all-Ventex stock & select panels based on whatever color (from which ever fabric) is in stock, as long as it's a ~50-50 mix.

Now if I could choose, I'd prefer your SUL because you have the Icarex (stretches more) in the mid-panels & the Ventex in the center (white on all Revs I think) + outer-most panels. But this is just my gut feeling & I have no physics formulas handy to back that up

Alfred, a top-notch Rev-flyer in my local area, once commented that I "lucked out" after he flew my 1.5SLE because all the other 1.5SLEs (incl. his) were making noise (due to the wind-speed @ that given moment) while mine was silent. His opnion was that my sail was perfectly tunned.

Was this because of the bungi-chord tightness, the panel construction, slight bridle difference, etc. - who knows. But the point is several Revs, identical in materials performed differently. Now take our two SULs, which have their various fabrics in different places. I'm sure there will be a difference in flight characteristic. Wether the difference is worth talking (or writing) about is another story all together...

*I-ka-rex, pronounced like I-ka-rus: "But the young Icarus, overwhelmed by the thrill of flying, did not heed his father's warning, and flew too close to the sun whereupon the wax in his wings melted and he fell into the sea."

[Traveller]

P.S. Look our for my upcoming nerd-alert-post on the various lines (Dacron, Kevlar, Spectra, Spectra 2000, Dyneema SK-60, Dyneema SK-75, Coramid, HPM...), lol! But don't blame me, it's Aiyana's doing!!!