JoneZ

My experiences in trickability of Kites

30 posts in this topic

Im trying to remember back to when I first bought my Cherry Bomb, and how difficult it was to pull off tricks. Flying was a breeze. I loved it,, but I yearned for more. More in the sense of tricks I was seeing others do. Stalling, backspinning, etc...

I started my research on another kite. One that was bigger, more bad ass, more pull, larger wingspan. All that good stuff.

I had the E2, the Hypnotist, and the Quantum in mind. Being as my budget was only set for a certain amount, I decided on the Quantum. That gave me a whole new perspective on "trick" kiting. It was tricky. And that was an understatement. For some reason, no matter how I mimicked those trick tutorials I viewed 1000+ times, I still couldn't pull a large amount of tricks I was attempting. It was pretty dis-heartening to say the least.

I found myself flying less, and getting frustrated more over the fact that I knew I was doing it right, but the kite was just not responding to my inputs the way it should have been. Eventually I deduced that it had to be pilot error. And that bummed me right the f*** out. I essentially stopped flying, stopped watching vids, stopped reading,, stopped everything.

I ended up losing my kite (as described in another post), and realizing how much I loved to fly all at the same time. I got pretty depressed about it, and was thinking "OK,, thats the Gods telling me that I should put kiting behind, and move onto other things."

I just couldnt accept that, even with all the odds weighing against me (or so I thought), as I went to Cannon Beach and watched others fly and trick, and stall and fade, and ,, well, you get it.

So, I started researching other kites, thinking that I wanted an Advanced kite (being as my prior 2 kites didnt do it for me). This was an "all or nothing" shot. If I bought another kite, and couldnt trick, I was just going to sell it and make my money back.

So I ended up purchasing a Premier Widow.

I raced home, and set it up, and raised it. I could immediately feel the difference from my other 2 prior kites. So I went home, and grabbed my PMP loaded with Trick tutorial videos, and headed back out to the field.

"Holy s***!! Did I just pull off an axel -- in the middle of the wind window -- without struggling?"

"w00t?!! Was that just a backspin?!?!! Something that Plagued my very soul since I bought my Quantum?"

"540s?"

"YoYos?"

Well,, to make this long story just a bit longer, I keyed in to the fact that I should have bought at least an advanced kite to start off with (I mean, after my initial purchase of the Cherry Bomb).

So, with all this, Im trying to convey the importance of really researching your kites before your purchase.

If I knew what I know now when I started flying, I would have bought a whole different series of kites, and would have probably saved myself a lot of angst, sadness, and frustration. For crying out loud,, I was almost ready to quit kiting!?!

In closing;

Find out what you want to use your kite for, whether its freestyle, precision, pairs, whatever. Then do your research. and LOTS of it. I thought I researched quit a bit, but apparently not enough.

And please,,,,, don't go buy a kite cuz it looks pretty -- looks can be deceiving.

What I recommend for beginners? Buy a beginner kite!! Fly the living crap out of it. Break it, nose dive it, whatever. Dont concern yourself with freestyle tricks, just learn to control your kite (tracking, sliding [k, maybe not sliding], landing, crash landing avoidence, turning, CONTROLLED spinning, etc...). Get the feel for the Wind, and how it interacts with your kite. Be your little 5ft beginner kite and LOVE IT!

Once you've got those down pat (mainly the crash landing avoidence training), skip the intermediate class -- it'll only get ya down (from my experience). You see, once I learned all the basics with my cherry bomb, I wanted to freestyle. That much I knew, and I wanted a kite that could do all the freestyle tricks out there, but I just bought the wrong kite, flat out.

Beginner/Intermediate class just slowed me down, and bummed me out. Go intermediate/advanced to advanced. If you learned all the beginner techniques I listed above you'll have no problem flying an advanced kite. Nor will you feel sketchy about crashing, or breaking something on ur kite, cuz you know how to track, slide and land.

Thanks for listening to my rant. This experience helped me realize that you need a kite that best suits YOUR needs, and your style.

I hope this post will help a beginner out there not make the same choices I made, and maybe give hope to some people that are down on themselves for not being able to land,, lets say, a backspin, no matter how hard they try. ;)

Peace, and may the wind always be at your back KL'ers.

~Jon

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Im trying to remember back to when I first bought my Cherry Bomb, and how difficult it was to pull off tricks. Flying was a breeze. I loved it,, but I yearned for more. More in the sense of tricks I was seeing others do. Stalling, backspinning, etc...

I started my research on another kite. One that was bigger, more bad ass, more pull, larger wingspan. All that good stuff.

I had the E2, the Hypnotist, and the Quantum in mind. Being as my budget was only set for a certain amount, I decided on the Quantum. That gave me a whole new perspective on "trick" kiting. It was tricky. And that was an understatement. For some reason, no matter how I mimicked those trick tutorials I viewed 1000+ times, I still couldn't pull a large amount of tricks I was attempting. It was pretty dis-heartening to say the least.

I found myself flying less, and getting frustrated more over the fact that I knew I was doing it right, but the kite was just not responding to my inputs the way it should have been. Eventually I deduced that it had to be pilot error. And that bummed me right the f*** out. I essentially stopped flying, stopped watching vids, stopped reading,, stopped everything.

I ended up losing my kite (as described in another post), and realizing how much I loved to fly all at the same time. I got pretty depressed about it, and was thinking "OK,, thats the Gods telling me that I should put kiting behind, and move onto other things."

I just couldnt accept that, even with all the odds weighing against me (or so I thought), as I went to Cannon Beach and watched others fly and trick, and stall and fade, and ,, well, you get it.

So, I started researching other kites, thinking that I wanted an Advanced kite (being as my prior 2 kites didnt do it for me). This was an "all or nothing" shot. If I bought another kite, and couldnt trick, I was just going to sell it and make my money back.

So I ended up purchasing a Premier Widow.

I raced home, and set it up, and raised it. I could immediately feel the difference from my other 2 prior kites. So I went home, and grabbed my PMP loaded with Trick tutorial videos, and headed back out to the field.

"Holy s***!! Did I just pull off an axel -- in the middle of the wind window -- without struggling?"

"w00t?!! Was that just a backspin?!?!! Something that Plagued my very soul since I bought my Quantum?"

"540s?"

"YoYos?"

Well,, to make this long story just a bit longer, I keyed in to the fact that I should have bought at least an advanced kite to start off with (I mean, after my initial purchase of the Cherry Bomb).

So, with all this, Im trying to convey the importance of really researching your kites before your purchase.

If I knew what I know now when I started flying, I would have bought a whole different series of kites, and would have probably saved myself a lot of angst, sadness, and frustration. For crying out loud,, I was almost ready to quit kiting!?!

In closing;

Find out what you want to use your kite for, whether its freestyle, precision, pairs, whatever. Then do your research. and LOTS of it. I thought I researched quit a bit, but apparently not enough.

And please,,,,, don't go buy a kite cuz it looks pretty -- looks can be deceiving.

What I recommend for beginners? Buy a beginner kite!! Fly the living crap out of it. Break it, nose dive it, whatever. Dont concern yourself with freestyle tricks, just learn to control your kite (tracking, sliding [k, maybe not sliding], landing, crash landing avoidence, turning, CONTROLLED spinning, etc...). Get the feel for the Wind, and how it interacts with your kite. Be your little 5ft beginner kite and LOVE IT!

Once you've got those down pat (mainly the crash landing avoidence training), skip the intermediate class -- it'll only get ya down (from my experience). You see, once I learned all the basics with my cherry bomb, I wanted to freestyle. That much I knew, and I wanted a kite that could do all the freestyle tricks out there, but I just bought the wrong kite, flat out.

Beginner/Intermediate class just slowed me down, and bummed me out. Go intermediate/advanced to advanced. If you learned all the beginner techniques I listed above you'll have no problem flying an advanced kite. Nor will you feel sketchy about crashing, or breaking something on ur kite, cuz you know how to track, slide and land.

Thanks for listening to my rant. This experience helped me realize that you need a kite that best suits YOUR needs, and your style.

I hope this post will help a beginner out there not make the same choices I made, and maybe give hope to some people that are down on themselves for not being able to land,, lets say, a backspin, no matter how hard they try. ;)

Peace, and may the wind always be at your back KL'ers.

~Jon

BB Penny~put this in AKA, too.

love it.

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Done. ;)

And thanks. B) I don't know why I'm not already signed up there, but I am now. lol.

~Jon

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Here is a ""PRIME"" example of where a DECENT shop and experience of a that shop come into play. The Instructors and the "Questions" they come too ask you before the just SELL you something and Take your MONEY!~!

Many people especially in this the Kiting world do "NOT" want to spend the extra 10 to 20 dollars on a Kite at a local shop. When they can buy a kite on~line at a discount. Prime example of this is what I sent you Personally Jon, in a Private message.

A Good / Decent shop in my Years of Experience, is a customer based shop, that will ask a person the fallowing things befor they purchase a kite in general. There are "beginner" kites that are just that. Built to do Circles and figure B's amd maybe a Axel when you get good, at the stall factor and side slides. However that is about it. Then there are the other side of Beginner kites that have much more trickability to them. Most of these kites are ones that Shops who have Instructors like myself who FLIES all the kites when they come in and put them through a "CERTAIN ROUTINE" that is a basic set of tricks. I/E Prism's Video without the Jacobs ladders and combination tricks. To see what the kite can do with ""EASE!~!" That way the shop can then have a Idea as to what to ask a person in the fallowing criteria..........

1. What is your experience, and what would you like to do with you kite???

2. Probably have a quick Vidoe show and tell as to what your kites potentail is and would you like to be able to do This???

3. Are you interested in lessons in learning these things???

4. A Primary "basic" lesson Comes with the purchase of a stunt kite of say 50.00 dollars or more.

5. Then they show you the difference in the kinds of kites and the potentials between them.

So the education process is MUCH simpler and easier to be made. There are "Several" beginer kites out there that you can NOT ( Back spin, Yo yo, Fade, Side slide, Axel, with ease etc. ) Yet there are three or four good 80.00 to 110.00 ish dollar kites that come with 40.00 dollar strings right off the top of my head that would of done MOST of what you were trying to DO!~!~! That YOU would of NOT found on LINE all that easy without Talking to a experienced SHOP or persons who have flown those kites. That Basic knowledge is Priceless especially when a Shop person Hands you There kite and says Here give it a try. Then says O K here is what I can do with this kite easily. B)

Lessons Learned are HARD PRESSED to us all many times OVER sometimes. It pays to "ASK OURSELVES" what is that extra 20.00 bucks worth to us in HEAD ACHE time alone??? From the shops who "REALLY HAVE THIER ACTS TOGETHER" over the years??? If we should Break something how easy is it too replace??? At that shop which is 2 hours away, or on our own at our house!~! That is a HUGE thing when your a long ways away from your Kite shop.

So as a Teacher / Instructor at a Shop. I have sceen Many people buy the Cheapest of two lines kites. Fly them for 20 minutes out on the beach while Im flying mine with other students. Just to have them turn around and Buy a Better kite and hand that off to thier kids. Or I have sceen people buy 180.00 dollar kites and they have never Flown a 2 line before in thier lives and exspect to fly it and not destroy it, and it is a real shame to watch the Carnage begin. As I try to sit with them in my lap and begin the lesson and slow them down and smooth out the natural tendencies built into our brains. ;)

Fast Eddy B)

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Completely agreed Eddy. I was actually telling my neighbor (I got him addicted to flying as well) about the Addiction kite link you sent me (thanks for the link. Was VERY informative, and I'll try to send some business that way if I recruit more newcomers.). He has a Beetle, and is pretty much just starting out. My Fiance and I forgot to get him an Xmas gift this year (yeah, we suck, I know. lol), so on Friday, before we headed out to the beach, we went to REI and got him a Prism Nexus (since he popped one of his standoffs last time we flew, and his spine was messed up and patched back together with Duct Tape, and he'd been flying my old Cherry Bomb).

He's likin his new one.

Cheers Shanobi187. Welcome to Kitelife! ;)

~Jon

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I am glad that you are having such an awesome time with the Widow. It is truly an awesome kite and probably one of the best tricking kites for the money. Just wait till you get the chance to fly the original Widow Maker, it is everything that the Widow is and more!!! This kite has replaced nearly all of my high end sport kites in my bag. I now own three, two custom standards and one custom UL.

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I am glad that you are having such an awesome time with the Widow. It is truly an awesome kite and probably one of the best tricking kites for the money. Just wait till you get the chance to fly the original Widow Maker, it is everything that the Widow is and more!!! This kite has replaced nearly all of my high end sport kites in my bag. I now own three, two custom standards and one custom UL.

Ok I have been reading a lot about the Widow... has anyone out there flown the Prism Hypnotist and the Widow? One of the reasons I was interested in the Hypnotist is it sound like it can take a lot of abuse but still pull off a lot of tricks. But the Widow isn't that much more and sounds amazing. I love the lime green one. Also if I can get the basics of flying a power kite I should be able to control a stunt kite with little problem correct? I am sure there is a little difference.... anyway. Sorry I hope I am not derailing your thread here. I thought it might be fitting seeing how I started out with a power kite (I got it for really cheap) but I am looking into my first stunt kite in the next month. I have seen the hypnotist listed at online kite shops as intermediate and competitive. I would like to stay right around 150$ I say the widow for 159$ somewhere recently. Anyway any advice would be great.

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So I have been reading up on the Widow.... if everyone thinks this kite can handle some noob abuse I think this might be the leading kite on my want list. Not to mention the green widow is about the best looking kite I have seen yet.

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Try the red one m8. thats the one I wanted to initially get but my kite dealer didnt have it in stock. The blue is great too. AND Theresa from www.thekiteshoppe.com should still have a green one in stock if ur interested.

I LOVE my widow. Its a great kite, really. Not much for precision flying right out of the factory, but it'll do any trick I can throw at it, and more that I cant, but friends have. ;)

It can take some damage as well. It has a re-enforced nose, as well as some pretty heavy duty re-enforcement on the leading edges.

She's got some oversteer issues, so I would recommend reading this post >>HERE<< after you pick one up (look through it, but the critical info is post #13), as well as my tutorial >>HERE<< on installing a leech line (I show a quantum in the guide, but have installed one on my Widow as well). That helps quite a bit to quiet the kite down, and curbs some of the oversteer, and just makes it all around easier to fly (hold wind better -- less dissipation off the trailing edge).

I would also put some duct tape just below the yoyo stoppers -- that'll help with wear on the leading edges, as well as some tape on the trailing edge, inbetween the standoffs (that is, when you get around to doing yoyos).

Also another good kite that takes a whole lot of abuse is the Prism Quantum. For the price its a great kite. Has the added bonus of having a shock absorbing system on the spine for hard nose crashes. Then, once you get good, you can modify it like I did >>HERE<<. LoL

Me and my damn Mods.... :P

Hope that helps. Any other Q's, just fire away m8.

~Jon

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from everything that I have read the hypnotist is just a more trickable quantum. I think if I get a prism it will be the hypnotist... I don't know it is a hard decision!

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One of the advantages on the Hypnotist is that it comes with the Freestyle Pilot DVD. Great tutorial DVD. Another option may be the new Prism E3, also comes with the DVD and the Graphite design we have hanging up in our storefront gets tons of compliments. It is a very sexy looking kite (and it has green in it too) LOL

All of these kites are excellent and will do what you are looking for.

As for learning on the Power Kites and then moving to the stunt kites, they are basically the same as far as the wind window and controls but the stunt kites are going to fly much faster and be much more responsive in flight over your power kite. Also, the stunt kites will not have near the power/pull as your power kites will.

If you ever make it down to Vegas, stop by our store or come out for our Friday Night fun fly's and we have tons of Demo's that you can fly before you buy. We can also give you tips and hints to help you with your progress.

Hope that helps.

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Speaking of trickability of kites, anyone besides J.B. flown the Jump?

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I gave J.B.'s Jump a fly about a month ago. Its a great performing kite. Although with any smaller wingspan kite, its very squirrely. But by far the best small class kite I've flown. Another good small class is the Cherry Bomb by New Tech. Its a yank and spank kite, which is good for beginners. But it does not perform as well as the Jump.

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I gave J.B.'s Jump a fly about a month ago. Its a great performing kite. Although with any smaller wingspan kite, its very squirrely. But by far the best small class kite I've flown. Another good small class is the Cherry Bomb by New Tech. Its a yank and spank kite, which is good for beginners. But it does not perform as well as the Jump.

Yeah if someone can please point me in the direction of a Icarex, full size kite in the 150ish range that would be great haha.

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Hmm. Im not sure of any icarex kites for $150 ish range. Ripstop nylon or polyester might be the way to go. Anyone else?

Personally, my Premier Widow is great for all intents and purposes. Nylon sail -- stretches a bit in the wet, but its a great kite. ;)

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I know, its not going to happen. I basically want a high end kite for mid range price. (don't we all) Is there a Benson kite distributor in the US?

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As far as I know, there isn't. I wish there was,, and if there is, I would like to know as well. lol

the Widow was based on Skyburners Widow Maker. The Widow has the exact specs (sail, frame, etc...) as the Widow Maker (designed by the same person - Jon Trennepohl.), only it was made with cheaper materials (nylon vc. icarex, no leech line, etc...) It was also produced in China. Thats the reasons for the cheaper price. It still has a skyshark frame, which is excellent, as well as sewn french seams (great for preventing sail freying), which alot of mass produced factory kite do not have.

It flies great, and flies even greater with a few small modifications.

I'd recommend it.

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I have a couple Benson kites in stock that aren't listed on our website. I think I still have some Innerspace's and a couple Outerspace's and one Outerspace UL (rare from what I hear). I can also order in new Deep Space's and Gemini's for special orders - just get with me and we can make it happen.

Benson is in the process of bringing out a Deep Space UL....but the time frame has not been set on it's actual release.

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I have a couple Benson kites in stock that aren't listed on our website. I think I still have some Innerspace's and a couple Outerspace's and one Outerspace UL (rare from what I hear). I can also order in new Deep Space's and Gemini's for special orders - just get with me and we can make it happen.

Benson is in the process of bringing out a Deep Space UL....but the time frame has not been set on it's actual release.

Kent I just may do that, one day when I get my high end kite.... probably not to long the way I am heading. Anyway I would love a Gemini or a deep space. I am seriously looking at a Focus Jinx or another Focus kite also. One kite at a time though... one kite at a time. haha

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A Deep Space would be exceptionally awesome. :blink:

How much would one of those run Kent? After all the exchange and what-not.

~Jon

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Right now, with the exchange rate and customs, the cost is around $380.00 for the Deepspace. The dollar is just not worth that much against the pound right now. Still, this kite is well worth it IMO. :blink:

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The Cherrry Bomb and kites like it are the perfect choice for a beginners first kite, not just my opinion but one shared by most kite seller. If you expected a "beginner sport kite" at $50 to behave like one at $200, or even $100... then you will be disapointed.

However that kite can trick, but its smaller and takes a higher level to trick a small kite like that. But again, it's not and never was billed as a all out "Slack Line Trick Kite" so to compare the two is not really a fair comparison.

It is an introduction to sport kiting. Sure you can say, I wish I would have done that now, but you needed a beginner kite to start on, and get you to the next level. Most shops I know, would not try to sell you a more expensive sport kite for your first or second kite. Some would say that by doing that, they are taking advantage of the buyer and I agree.

I would not try to oversell somebody and I am afraid by posting that post, you are giving the wrong idea to people and potential new fliers. Higher Prices is exactly what scares new fliers off and from my experience, they must ease into it, starting with an affordable good flying beginner kite.

And we don't want to scare new fliers off with high prices. They will find that out soon enough, after they are hooked!

Best Wishes

Dodd

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Right now, with the exchange rate and customs, the cost is around $380.00 for the Deepspace. The dollar is just not worth that much against the pound right now. Still, this kite is well worth it IMO. :blink:

Yeah I really like the prices of the the Focus kites. Anyway I am just now finding these handmade kites so far I have looked at Focus, and Blue Moon.

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The Cherrry Bomb and kites like it are the perfect choice for a beginners first kite, not just my opinion but one shared by most kite seller. If you expected a "beginner sport kite" at $50 to behave like one at $200, or even $100... then you will be disapointed.

Best Wishes

Dodd

Hey Dodd!! I've been trying to get a hold of NTK to ge tthe Cherry Bombs bridle measurements, but to no avail. Would you be able to rattle some cages there and get a response from them? I've literally sent 3 emails and got nothing but automated replies in return 0.o

Thanks bro

~Jon

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Hi Jon, don't have New Tech Info anymore or even any New Tech Kites to look at, but I would suggest calling New Tech between 10 and 5 Central time and ask for Rob. You can get the number off their site. Best wishes.

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