Laser Pro Gold & other Spectra Lines

[Reef Runner]

I may be behind on this subject, but I understand that, a year or so ago, there was some serious concern in the kiting world, as to the future of Laser Pro Gold, the flight line, that we have all become so hooked on. As best I can recollect, it seems that Shimano, the fishing line company, bought out, "Innovative Textiles", who manufactured Laser Pro Gold, along with other spectra lines that are used in the kiting world. Can anyone shed any light on this subject?

As one that has always made-up his own flight lines, I have recently noticed some shortages, at some of the on-line stores, in spectra lines, and I have also seen several notices to the effect of, "when it's gone, it's gone". Well if this is true, what are we going to use, when it is gone? What will replace it?

Does someone have the "skinny", on this subject

Say it ain't so, John. Say it ain't so !!

[Guru4tru]

I sure hope that isn't the case, but I don't know.

I know I bought a thousand feet of 90# Laser Pro Gold from "The Kite Shoppe" back in January, but I don't know if that was the last of it or not.

Keep It Up!

Duane

[windofchange]

It is TRUE and verified!!!!

Shimano did purchase the entire operation of Innovative Textiles - including the Laser Pro line - which includes Laser Pro Gold spectra kite line.

That being said....there is no shortage of LPG line at this time. Conrad (previous owner of Innovative Textiles), who learned how to make LPG line while working with Daniel Prentice of Shanti, is still a very large part of Shimano's operation and is continuing to produce LPG kite line. They no longer produce pre-made linesets which is why many shops are no longer carrying the product. Bulk line is still being produced though but must be ordered in large quantities to make it worth the time to have Conrad produce the line. At this time, we have been assured that bulk line will still be available and as long at the demand is there, they will continue to make it.

LPG line is produced in batches and it does take a long time to produce this type of line. So it is possible that a batch may run short on supply and there may be a shortage until the next batch can be ran. As of this time we are told there is plenty of supply and there is no shortage.

Hope that clears up any rumors out there.

This is the knowledge that I have received on the line at this time. Obviously it could change at any moment and if anyone else has any other info, please let us all know.

[Reef Runner]

Hey Kent,

Thanks for the update. I had heard sometime last year, that the company had changed hands, and that there might be a problem getting LPG, down the road, and then, I began seeing some websites saying things like, "when it's gone, it's gone", however, they were speaking of the pre-made line sets, as you mentioned.

Now I have another question concerning the bulk line, as you sell on your website. I see that it is sold on 300 yard (900 feet) spools, and that's what I don't understand. Is the company aware that the standard Rev line set, is 120 feet long? The way I calculate the bulk line, that I need to make a line set is as follows. I take the length of the set, add 3 extra feet for the loops, and multiply by the number of lines. So, it I were going to make, for example, two (2) standard, 90 lb x 120 foot, quad line sets, I would calculate 120 + 3 x 8 = 984 total feet LPG needed, but those 300 yard (900 feet) spools would be 84 feet short. Even without the extra 3 feet that I always add just to be safe (120 x 8 - 960 feet), these spools would still be 60 feet short. That's the part that I don't understand. Why would the company put it up on 300 yard spools. Why not 330 yards (990 feet), or just make it an even 1000 feet. Better to have a little extra, than to have such an odd length (IMHO).

Just curious if you can shed an light on this.................

thanks............nick

[Guru4tru]

Hi Nick,

You are running a good post here...I'm interested! (I'll be making up a 120 quad tomorrow out of the stuff I bought in Janurary.)

As I mentioned I bought 1000ft. from The Kite Shoppe in January...well not quite 1000ft.:

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The Kite Shoppe $110.00 Laser Pro Gold 90# by 333 yard spool

Laser Pro Gold 90# by 333 yard (999 feet) Spools are back in stock. These spools used to come as 1000' bulk spools. During the change to yards, the new spools came with 300 yards on them, which didn't allow enough...

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I could certainly think of a better footage to buy....and at a better price too! heehee!! (But, I go with what is there!)

Keep It Up!

Duane

[--Pete]

How many 120' linesets does anyone need? Make some 100s or some 30s and 50s out of that roll as well as the 120s.

[Guru4tru]

How many 120' linesets does anyone need? Make some 100s or some 30s and 50s out of that roll as well as the 120s.

OK...PETE!!

Your the brain that figured out the day the robins will be in your back yard....and how many times they will flap their wings to get there ....I usually fly 80’, 100’ & 120’.

SO, before I start cutting this 333yard piece of "very" expensive Laser Gold Pro line to shreds’...what is the best way to go with it...and have the smallest useless piece left over? (I’ll wait your answer before I take my knife out! heehee!)

Keep It Up!

Duane

[Wayne Dowler]

I was looking at Kent's 300 yd roll, was going to make 120', 80', and what ever was left (25'?)!!! Price was right too!!!

[Reef Runner]

I usually fly 80', 100' & 120'.

SO, before I start cutting this 333yard piece of "very" expensive Laser Gold Pro line to shreds'...what is the best way to go with it...and have the smallest useless piece left over?

Pete may still be in the wine cellar !

You can't make a 120', a 100', and a 80' line set, out of 333 yards (999 feet). You need another 237 feet !

120 + 3 x 4 = 492 feet

100 + 3 x 4 = 412 feet

80 + 3 x 4 = 332 feet

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Total needed = 1236 feet (which is 237 feet, more than on your 999 foot spool)

And you are going to have to waste 95 feet, if you make just the 120' & 100', but you can make yourself a 120', a 100', and a 20' set, and use up that 95 feet.

By making two 120' sets, you only waste 15 feet - That's why they changed the yardage to 333 yards, instead of 300...........

ps...looks like the 333 yd (999 feet) spool, was made to make two 120' sets, or three 80' sets.

[Reef Runner]

I was looking at Kent's 300 yd roll, was going to make 120', 80', and what ever was left (25'?)!!! Price was right too!!!

That'll work................

120 + 3 x 4 = 492 feet

80 + 3 x 4 = 332 feet

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total needed = 824 feet (with 76 feet to spare - looks like a 16 - 17 foot set, for something ?)

[--Pete]

Looks like you have it. No sense risking overheating my powerful brain now.

[Jeepster]

Just to add one more variable to the mix.

Most spectra lines will creep (commonly mis-refereed to as stretch) about 2% right off the roll. That means that 120 feet of spectra will creep 2.4 feet ... more than enough for the end loops. So, how brave are you? Care to cut four 120 foot pieces and count on them to yield enough for end loops?

BTW ... that expensive bridle line that you've bought will also creep about 2% ... you need to pre-stretch it before building bridles or stacking lines.

One last point ... creep is a plastic deformation of the spectra. The amount of creep you experience is based on the force that you apply to the line. You need to pull/tug up to the limits of the knots to get the best set. Even then, you'll still get a little line growth during the first couple of high wind flights.

Cheers,

Tom

[hyzakite]

Sounds like a few rolls would be in order and some math, all 4 lines need not come off of one roll all at once, I would think 2 120's and 3 80's could come off of a roll, and 2 120's and 1 80' could come from another roll, a set of dual lines here and there will work too. The remainder is cheaper than dental floss.

[Reef Runner]

Just to add one more variable to the mix.

Even then, you'll still get a little line growth during the first couple of high wind flights.

This weekend, two of us were using brand new line sets. One was a 80 foot set, the other was a 100 foot set. After several hours of flight time, in some decent wind (not blistering mind you), when we began to wind up the lines, we both noticed that our upper lines, were now a bit longer, than the lower lines. They were obviously sagging down, once we stretched out the full set, in preparation to wind them up. Incidentally, we had both removed our handles before beginning the wind up process, so what we were looking at, was pure stretch, or "creep", as Jeepster illudedeluded to. The good thing, everything was equal, from left to right, just that bit of "creep", in those upper lines, which I would guess, take a bit more punishment, than the lower lines. All in all, it appeared to be somewhere around 1.5" to 2.0", overall. Another good reason to switch your upper & lower lines, every now and then.

[Wayne Dowler]

Just to add one more variable to the mix.

Most spectra lines will creep (commonly mis-refereed to as stretch) about 2% right off the roll. That means that 120 feet of spectra will creep 2.4 feet ... more than enough for the end loops. So, how brave are you? Care to cut four 120 foot pieces and count on them to yield enough for end loops?

BTW ... that expensive bridle line that you've bought will also creep about 2% ... you need to pre-stretch it before building bridles or stacking lines.

One last point ... creep is a plastic deformation of the spectra. The amount of creep you experience is based on the force that you apply to the line. You need to pull/tug up to the limits of the knots to get the best set. Even then, you'll still get a little line growth during the first couple of high wind flights.

Cheers,

Tom

So, taking the creep into consideration, I could go with 120'x 4, 80'x 4, and make up what's left!!! 480' + 320' = 800' 900' - 800' =100' 100'-4 =25' - loop length + creep!!! The shorties would be the only set not overly affected by the creep factor!! The others would end up long, taking into account the creep factor!!

Reef - 3' seems a little long to me!!! How long are your loops??

[Reef Runner]

Reef - 3' seems a little long to me!!! How long are your loops??

Yes sir, it is............I have just always thrown in a little extra, to make certain I didn't get shorted. I usually order my bulk line by the foot, NOT in spools of a certain length. If I need 730 feet (just an example), that's what I order.................so I don't worry about having a bunch of waste.

As for the loops, I cut 15" pieces of sleeving, which is 30" per line (not quite 3 feet), so yes, I have just a few inches of extra.

MY QUESTION IS THIS ??? Just for discussion purposes, for example: If I am going to make, what we will call, a 100 foot line set (dual, quad, or whatever), do I start with exactly 100 feet of line, or are you suppose to add for the sleeved part (15" on each end), which in turn gets cut in half, when you double it back, to make the loops.

If NOT, then the line set is going to get shorted 100' - 7.5" - 7.5" = 98' 9" (because you use up part of the original 100 feet, for the loops)

If you DO add the 15" that is going to be sleeved, onto each end of the original 100 feet,

then,

You end up with a line set that is longer than 100 feet 100' + 7.5" + 7.5" = 101' 3"

And none of this takes into consideration, the amount of length, that you lose, due to the knots tied to secure the sleeving and to make the loops, which is generally 1/2" to 3/4" per knot.

And then, throw in Jeepster's "Creeping" theory.........................

Does anyone know if there is a proper procedure, for measuring the raw line, for a line set of a specific length, or DOES IT REALLY MATTER

THIS AIN'T SUPPOSED TO BE ROCKET SCIENCE !!! Right I'm still confused...........

[windofchange]

It would be interesting to see if any of the teams (I-Quad, Too Much Fun, etc...) ever had an issue because one lineset was a foot or so different than the others?

Also, LPG is available in both 300 yard and 1000 yard spools. Why the 300 yard??? Not really sure, that's just what they started producing. I think this has to do more with the fishing line industry than the kiting industry. In reality, us kite flyers are nothing more than a drip in the bucket compared to the amount of fishing line that is sold every month. I think the spools that they use just work nicely to hold 300 yards and that is why they use that number. Until I-Quad came along, 120' line sets were extremely rare and usually only available in custom builds. The standard lines were always 75', 100' or 150'. 120' is really the odd one. Times of course have changed this.

[--Pete]

MY QUESTION IS THIS ??? Just for discussion purposes, for example: If I am going to make, what we will call, a 100 foot line set (dual, quad, or whatever), do I start with exactly 100 feet of line, or are you suppose to add for the sleeved part (15" on each end), which in turn gets cut in half, when you double it back, to make the loops.

If NOT, then the line set is going to get shorted 100' - 7.5" - 7.5" = 98' 9" (because you use up part of the original 100 feet, for the loops)

If you DO add the 15" that is going to be sleeved, onto each end of the original 100 feet,

then,

You end up with a line set that is longer than 100 feet 100' + 7.5" + 7.5" = 101' 3"

And none of this takes into consideration, the amount of length, that you lose, due to the knots tied to secure the sleeving and to make the loops, which is generally 1/2" to 3/4" per knot.

And then, throw in Jeepster's "Creeping" theory.........................

To me a 100' line set will hook over two nails which are 100' apart, so the length of the loops are included. It means cutting the "blank" to 100' plus enough extra to make ONE loop (and a bit for luck). This way the length added by the first loop is subtracted from the 100' when you tie the second loop.

Measure the distance between your nails and start tying. Best to use four nails at each end and suspend the lines between them as you make them.

Observing the sag will give you a very accurate gauge of the tension on each line. Keep them pretty tight.

Put a loop on one end of all four lines. Keep the sleeving TIGHT as you lay out the loop, and as you tie the knot. Give the lines all a good stretch. Then begin putting the loops on the other ends.

If you miss your length, take a loop apart and try again. You will quickly learn exactly how much your combination of knot, sleeve, and line will shorten the loop. (Or you will get a LOT of practice tying and untying the loops.) (If you are good, and have the right picks and tools, you may be able to work a fraction of an inch of line and sleeve through the knot, without loosening it, to adjust length.)

(I am assuming that you use a double-overhand knot for the loops.) One lesson I learned a long time ago to prevent line creep THROUGH the sleeved knots: keep the two strands of sleeved line EXACTLY PARALLEL through the knot. If they twist around each other inside the knot, the knot will creep. It just takes a few seconds more to adjust the paths of the lines as you draw up the knot, and it makes all the difference. You can always tell when the line is creeping through the knot: the sleeving in the loop will scrunch up. It can happen days or weeks after setting the loops. (Note that I am using "creep" in a slightly different sense than Jeepster. I mean actual slow movement. Jeepster means permanent elongation of the line. Both are good usage, but you need to keep the difference in mind.)

[Guru4tru]

The way I make my line sets is that I have a large nail in the bottom of a fence post. I measure out the distance I want plus 14 inches and drive a stake in the ground. Then I tie the line to the nail and run it to the stake and then back around the nail and back around the stake and then back to the nail...and cut the line a little long and tie it to the nail.

So I have one long line running back and forth from the nail to the stake twice. Then I go to the line on the stake end and slip a large dowel through the lines and remove it from the stake. Then I streach the line pretty hard, leaning way back for about 10 minutes and bouncing my weight softly as I pull. At some point you can feel the line hit a sort of "solid--that's it" streached point.

Then I take the line back to the stake which is at the measured distance and cut it (after streaching there are a couple inches extra to cut off).

Then I cut the lines at the nail, which gives me 4 lines of equal length. I then sleeve the 4 lines at the nail end and slip the loops over the nail. (If I am using different colored sleeving I have to insure that the ends are getting the proper colors.) Then I go to the other end and sleeve one line. I use the first line sleeved as a templete for the other 3 lines.

Now everything should be the same and correct mesured length from end of loop to end of loop. I then run a dowel through the loops at the stake end and streach everything again...which isn't much, if any, change because of the pre-streaching, but if more then desired streachings occurs, I just add an additional knot to the loops at one end.

Did I say that right?? heehee!! :confused!:

Keep It Up!

Duane

[Wayne Dowler]

OK, this thread got me thinking ........... Danger, Warning!!! Got out my home made set of 50'x50# and measured them, now that they're 6 months old and well used!! Made them from a 200' spool from ITW, more on this later, made 4 even lengths, sleeved, and called them good!! So, I went and measured them just now and they are 49'!!!! And all this time I thought they were 50'!!! Any way, does a foot make that big a deal??? To get back to ITW, you can special order longer spools than what they advertise, but special order rules apply, no refunds, no returns, no backing out!!! It will be interesting if JB joins in on this, do teams always have perfect line sets, or can they make do?? "Outsiders" join them often, I'm sure they work with anything close!!

[Guru4tru]

Well, I wouldn't have another stroke over 1 foot...heehee, but you could add another foot of a "pre sleeved line loop" on the one end if you wanted. I know some big guys that have an arm reach that is probably that much longer then mine. But, the difference can be somewhat adjusted for by not standing in quite a perfectly straight line at where you are flying from.

Keep It Up!

Duane

[--Pete]

Teams (especially 2-line teams) often deliberately make small (foot or so) differences in their lines so they can "stack" the kites, leaning against the lines of the kite ahead, while still standing in an attractive and even row on the ground. This also lets the team member flying last in line move a bit quicker, when needed, to tighten up a formation.

So, I would say Yes, it does make (some) difference.

Revs, with speed control, need this sort of thing less (but are also bothered less by it).

[Guru4tru]

The biggest problem for me in matching line lengths with others is....."There are no 'others' here!!"

Doesn't someone want to move to "Sunny Florida"...Royal Palm Beach area?!?!

Keep It Up!

Duane

[Reef Runner]

Well, after all of this discussion, I think that Pete hit the nail on the head (again). If for example, you are using 16" sleeving, and you are making a 100' line set, then the raw line length, needs to be 100' + 16". Then when you apply sleeving to both ends (the same length), and you double them over to make the loop, everything should even out to the desired length, no matter how long the sleeve. Seems like your sleeve length, whether it be 12", 16", 20", or 24" (I know, it's just an example) should determine the extra amount of "raw" line, you need to add to the desired final length.

example: you're making 100' line set, and you're using a 16" sleeve, then you should begin with 101' 4".............

Isn't that what you were saying Pete ???? Say it's so Pete, say it's so ! :big_beer:

[Reef Runner]

The biggest problem for me in matching line lengths with others is....."There are no 'others' here!!"

Doesn't someone want to move to "Sunny Florida"...Royal Palm Beach area?!?!

Keep It Up!

Duane

Well, I'll give fair warning, right now. Anyone that flies with me better watch out, because all of my line sets, are 16" longer than I say they are !

I suppose I've been messing up, all along, but as Guru4tru said, "There are no 'others' here!!", so no sweat.................

I really don't believe that this is going to be, a life altering event.....................