tuning Pigtails (tuning your quad with knotted leaders)

[Sub706 13]

Hello,

I 've been flying my B series revs the last the three months using the knots suggested in the video that came with the kite. I can manage all the slides and hovers. Recently, someone suggested that I should fly with a longer pigtails because that's is how Team Iquad fly. Being a newbie, I took the suggestion and made some longer pigtails and fly at the most outer knots at possible. The problem is I am not sure why I am doing so. Can someone explain the principal behind this? Thanks!

[Cyphert 119]

I could but ill hand that question over to Jb he is the master.

John what say you?

[Wayne Dowler 1,993]

Saw that you were a subscriber to Kitelife - check out the tutorials, especially about sail loading! Pretty much explains what the theory is on longer leaders! John is in South America, his replies will be scattered in time for awhile! Try watching, if that doesn't get you there, come on back! If John hasn't posted, I'll be glad to explain!

[Sub706 13]

Thanks! I saw the sail loading tutorial listed under advance and did not want to get ahead of myself so I haven't downloaded them. I will take a look at them.

[Wayne Dowler 1,993]

It shows the reasoning behind why we fly with the longer top leaders!! In a nutshell, I'll try to explain!

Longer top leaders let you adjust the kite to "square up" and hold the wind efficiently! It allows you to set up your sail as almost "neutral", not overly jumpy with gusts, not completely dead if the wind drops! Stock leaders tend to make the kite too forward or too much drive!! They are intended to help you launch successfully and see some instant success in your flying! But we find that adding the longer leaders gives you more control after the beginning stages of flight! Something we avoid is having the kite "surge" out of control when a gust hits! The long leaders help you tune that out, so you can better absorb the gust! Helps too in light winds, where "squaring up" the sail traps more wind in the sail and helps you fly in harder conditions!

I'm sure John has more on this, these are a few things I can offer!

[SparkieRob 1,682]

Also for ergonomics. Kite angle is directly related to handle angle and therefore wrist rotation.

[John Barresi 5,742]

Tuning Theory I will be the most applicable to your question, but Sail Loading and Body/Posture covers what to DO with those new settings.

In the correct order:

You can go right through the all the videos, regardless of skill level... "Advanced" simply refers to the progression.

Let us know it goes!

[Sub706 13]

Thank you all for taking the time to answer my question.

[John Barresi 5,742]

Anytime, we all love to share the passion - now go fly!

[Reef Runner 1,486]

It shows the reasoning behind why we fly with the longer top leaders!! In a nutshell, I'll try to explain!

Longer top leaders let you adjust the kite to "square up" and hold the wind efficiently! It allows you to set up your sail as almost "neutral", not overly jumpy with gusts, not completely dead if the wind drops! Stock leaders tend to make the kite too forward or too much drive!! They are intended to help you launch successfully and see some instant success in your flying! But we find that adding the longer leaders gives you more control after the beginning stages of flight! Something we avoid is having the kite "surge" out of control when a gust hits! The long leaders help you tune that out, so you can better absorb the gust! Helps too in light winds, where "squaring up" the sail traps more wind in the sail and helps you fly in harder conditions!

Not to confuse things, but just up for discussion, last trip to the coast, I ran into a guy at the Wright Kite Festival, that did the exact opposite. He had short top leaders, and long knotted bottom leaders. Same results, he just preferred to do his adjusting from the bottom leaders, rather than from the top, as most of us do.

Assuming that your benchmark is a "square-to-the-wind" set-up, you should achieve the same results, bringing the bottom of the kite in (more brake / less drive), as letting the top out (likewise, more brake / less drive), and visa-versa. Different strokes for different strokes, I suppose. I wonder has anyone else, run across someone, that made adjustments like this ?

[Wayne Dowler 1,993]

We had a topic on the Rev forum about this very subject and there were some that adjusted from the bottom!! But I think? the majority adjust the tops! Some do both!!

[John Barresi 5,742]

In my experience and after observing countless fliers at various skill levels, I've found that the Rev 1.5 absolutely NEEDS at least a little extension on the top lines to stop the sail from spilling wind too freely (sheeting - the problem we so often see with EXP buyers (same length leaders top and bottom, too fast, difficult to control, falls out of the air).

Also - aa lot of times, if you do the math on folks who use both top and bottom leaders, you'll find the difference is *still* longer on the top, even by 1", so why not just make super short leaders (top being the longer of the two)?

I'd love some debate on this, just sharing my experience.

[Wayne Dowler 1,993]

Just remembered - those that did adjust the bottoms also used pretty long tops too!! Myself, I have the bottom fairly close in already, making the bottoms longer would be like going back to the stock leaders, taking away the adjust-ability! I be happy with what I use!!

[Reef Runner 1,486]

In my experience and after observing countless fliers at various skill levels, I've found that the Rev 1.5 absolutely NEEDS at least a little extension on the top lines to stop the sail from spilling wind too freely (sheeting - the problem we so often see with EXP buyers (same length leaders top and bottom, too fast, difficult to control, falls out of the air).

Also - aa lot of times, if you do the math on folks who use both top and bottom leaders, you'll find the difference is *still* longer on the top, even by 1", so why not just make super short leaders (top being the longer of the two)?

I'd love some debate on this, just sharing my experience.

Well, not really in position to debate (especially with you John), but here is a pic of my 13" handles & leaders, which I use 98% of the time. As can be seen in the photo, I have what I call my reference points, which are just quick reminders, as to where to attach my lines, during initial set-up. So, this is where I usually begin, and if adjustments are needed, I move the top lines, either "in or out", as need be........... (works for me ?) just saying

[Wayne Dowler 1,993]

Nick - that photo indicates you have let the top out about 4-5" (guess) from a stock setup! Think about it - stock "shorties" are about 2-3" long and both are the same length!! Now you added new tops and bottoms, with the bottom out about 2" and the top about 6-7"! Subtract the bottom length from the top length (of your regularly used knots) and you'll get your "differential", the difference you've let the top out!! Measure with a tape and see what it actually is!! I'm guessing from your pic that it's about 5"!!

[Wayne Dowler 1,993]

I'll also guess that you almost never use the last couple of knots on the leaders!! Great for flying - terrible to launch or do any ground moves!! IMHO!!

[Reef Runner 1,486]

Nick - that photo indicates you have let the top out about 4-5" (guess) from a stock setup! Think about it - stock "shorties" are about 2-3" long and both are the same length!! Now you added new tops and bottoms, with the bottom out about 2" and the top about 6-7"! Subtract the bottom length from the top length (of your regularly used knots) and you'll get your "differential", the difference you've let the top out!! Measure with a tape and see what it actually is!! I'm guessing from your pic that it's about 5"!!

Good eye Wayne...........

My reference points (knots) are as follows: (you were very close)

Top knot is at 7 "

Bottom knot is 2 1/4"

Differential is 4 3/4" (but, you missed it by 1/4")

Now, as I mentioned, this is just a reference, where I normally set up ! Sometimes I move it, sometimes I don't, just depends

[Wayne Dowler 1,993]

This got me thinking, so I checked mine!! 15" setup is 7 1/2" to 8 1/2" out on top with 1 3/4" bottoms - 5 3/4" or 6 3/4" differential!

13" is 1 7/8" bottom, 7" top for a 51/8" differential!!

Difference of the two is that I haven't had to convert them both to a "one sized mini" yet!

Both differences are from my favorite setup spots, but like you, I move them as needed!

[SparkieRob 1,682]

I was given some great advice about the length of my leaders. "Feel it" You'll feel it when it's right for you.

[Wayne Dowler 1,993]

True!! I use 2 settings most times - 1 for flying solo (I like more brake), and 1 for team (need a little more go power)!! But I usually start pretty much from the same place and adjust as needed!

[Reef Runner 1,486]

Yep, but I do end up adding a bit more (maybe 1 knot) brake, most of the time, assuming there is a decent breeze ! Of course, what I call a decent breeze, and what you call a decent breeze, are probably a long ways apart

[Reef Runner 1,486]

This got me thinking, so I checked mine!!

13" is 1 7/8" bottom, 7" top for a 51/8" differential!!

So, it looks like you set up, with 3/8" more brake, than I do...... .......this is making my head hurt..........

But as we always say, whatever feels best for "YOU"...........kewl !

[John Barresi 5,742]

Don't forget about various degrees of stretch across all your line sets too.

The only way for the knot system preferences to really hold water in discussion, is if you equalize your lines, top and bottom the same.

My leaders need to be really long (13"-14"?) on a brand new set of 120' lines, but once the top lines have stretched out, I may pull back a few knots (shorten the top) to compensate.

[John Barresi 5,742]

Addendum: my bottom leaders are generally about 5" long, with 1/2" knots.

I use these strictly to equalize R-L unbalance as I switch from line set to line set in a hurry.

All tuning (throttle/brake) is done on my top leaders.

Re tuning for newbies - the best approach I've found for folks trying to find their "feel" on the settings...

1 - Start with good, long top leaders (maybe 12" long with knots spaced 3/4").

2 - Let your top lines all the way out on the leaders, and try to launch.

3 - If you can't launch, pull in one top knot and try again.

3a - If you can't launch, pull in one top knot and try again.

3b - If you can't launch, pull in one top knot and try again.

3c - If you can't launch, pull in one top knot and try again.

Eventually, you should hit a knot where you are *just* able to launch - practice on that knot, and the knot on either side for a minimum of 45 minutes (takes a while for our physical technique to adapt and stick).

Every 3-4 months, repeat the same "seeking" process and I'll bet even money that your "happy launch" knot ends up further and further out each time.

Note, your "happy" setting may vary as you change kites (different bridle stretch or tying) and lines (top lines stretched more or less), don't get stuck on one setting - it's best to stay dynamic, testing and adjusting as needed.

Other posts in this same thread that may be useful in utilizing your new settings:

How to "whump" or load and unload your turns:

http://kitelife.com/forum/topic/5530-pigtails-tuning-your-rev-with-knotted-leaders/page-5#entry37769

Relevant tutorials on KiteLife:

http://kitelife.com/forum/topic/5530-pigtails-tuning-your-rev-with-knotted-leaders/#entry37572

Edited August 28, 2013 by John Barresi
Updated with more information and links.

[Reef Runner 1,486]

My leaders need to be really long (13"-14"?) on a brand new set of 120' lines

Addendum: my bottom leaders are generally about 5" long, with 1/2" knots.

@JB

Ok, assuming your 13" - 14" top leaders, and 5" bottom leaders, where are your initial line attachment points, on these leaders, assuming you have a brand new equalized set of 120' lines.