mywindstuff Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 I have an opportunity to fly a REV off of the Rio Grande Gorge Bridge , i have many hours on a REV (no Barresi) but pretty good! My question is once my REV is below say the ground floor and is descending straight down what effect will this have on the kite as it will change the angle of the kite in the opposite as from the ground level to above my head. I know that gravity brings the kite down from the top of the window , but what about 90 foot straight down ? Gravity wont help me there. There is normally quite a crowd of people on this bridge and I don't want to have to pull the kite back up by the lines like a boat anchor. There are good winds down the gorge , and the bridge will have little to no effect on the kite as its construction is very open. Just looking for some opinions before I take the plunge! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Rabbit Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 Taking a wild stab at this, thinking of the mechanics of kite flight, why would the bottom half of the arc be any different from the top half? Gravity is removed from the equation in a controlled landing, right? If you are on top of a hill and the kite goes below you, does it not respond the same, assuming the same wind speed? Interesting question. May need to call the Mythbusters in on this one. I'll be interested to hear how it turns out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkieRob Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 There is a YouTube video of THE Joe H flying on the back of his brother (?) who was flying a paraglide the with no fan... Had no troubles below the horizontal. I'll see if I can find a link. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparkieRob Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 Found it. It's for the mobile version but should get you there. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makatakam Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 On the ground, the wind window can be represented by a 1/4-sphere. Remove the ground and the window becomes a 1/2-sphere. You should be able to fly to and away from the edge of the window in any direction, including below you. Obviously, the wind should be blowing in a direction as perpendicular to the bridge as possible, at least on the first attempt, but I would attempt it if it's 45 degrees or more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 I think I would avoid trying to fly straight down below me. With the kite now flat, there would be no sail to hold wind = dead! I'd feel my way into how far I could push it in that vertical direction, especially if you are trying to avoid, what in that situation would be, the "Walk of Shame"! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makatakam Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 I think I would avoid trying to fly straight down below me. With the kite now flat, there would be no sail to hold wind = dead! I'd feel my way into how far I could push it in that vertical direction, especially if you are trying to avoid, what in that situation would be, the "Walk of Shame"! Sorry, Wayne, have to disagree with you on this one. The wind will have exactly the same effect on the kite below you as it does above you. The only difference is the lack of "up" gravity. Should be about the same as flying at the sides of the window, minus the adjustment for gravity. Imagine you're standing on your head and flying when the kite is below the pilot, or standing upright in zero gravity. The effect at the bottom will be similar to flying at the top of the window, in that the wind will not allow you to fly the kite past vertical if you're using a decent amount of brake. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 I may not be an aerodynamics specialist - but - where is the "lift" coming from, if the kite is flat and parallel to the ground and more importantly - wind? Ever just pull a kite out of the sky? Why? No surface to catch wind and recover! Unless you can present some sail to the wind ...? How many kites just take off, laying on a beach?? Remember too - in Joe's video - he was moving at all times, creating "wind" with airspeed. If I remember, even he didn't fly directly below himself, but did fly below his horizon line. We're talking a stationary flier with limits to his movement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyzakite Posted October 28, 2015 Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 Even if you want to try it, Where are you going to stake your lines before being hit by a cement truck or tractor trailer? According to your beard the wind would be blowing down the centerline of the road which sounds like a safer start than staking it across the road. Even if the wind is going down the gorge to power up you'll have to step backwards somewhere along the flight, but stepping back might get you to the centerline again, hopefully before the tour bus has to stop to clean brain splatter off of the windshield. I'm thinking Wayne's ideas are my thoughts as well, it's easy to bring the kite down from the top of the window, as gravity is a good part of a controllable kite. What do you do once it gets to the bottom of the window, gravity won't help you getting the kite back normal ground level, walking into the road hopefully without even a horse and buggy hitting you might get the kite back in control. And you have the rails of the bridge stopping your normal movement, the fence you're standing next to is as high as your shoulders, maybe the rails on the bridge is the same height. It's a fun thought, but base jumping sounds safer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mywindstuff Posted October 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 Thanks Fair Dinkum for the video , that was great , I was hoping to see them fly that straight down , it did have some degree of below what I would call the plain. I have flown over the edge of some hills with no problems but it was far from what I am expecting over the Gorge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mywindstuff Posted October 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2015 Hyzakite , thanks for your concern on me getting ran over and the wind direction and the fence etc... That was the only picture I had on my phone to show the bridge. To clarify a few things , the chain link fence only runs parallel to the Gorge , the hand rail at the bridge is only about waist high (apparently they haven't had a jumper) so no issues there. The winds that particular day were not the perfect ingredient for my task. My plan , is to launch the kite from the grassy area towards the end of the sidewalk ,never stepping into the street , then walk the kite like a dog on a leash down the sidewalk to an area near the middle of the gorge and then fly as normal and slowly dip lower and lower to the point in which I feel I cant get anymore upward climb with the REV.I have about 4 more days to catch that perfect wind blowing up or down the gorge. This is also an area in which they fly hot air balloons deep down into and along the Gorge. They consistently fly south down the gorge. I will fly the REV to the bottom of this new window at some point just to get the answer or feeling I'm inquiring about. This is the slow season for tourist but still holds a good crowd and they may too appreciate some REV flying if they haven't seen one fly before. just thought maybe someone else had already done this or similar and could chime in with factual results. Wayne , I'm with you on the lift not sure either ! Not often you don't have the answer. So I guess we can keep scratching until I get some results. Thanks! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyzakite Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 I like this topic! It's so new! Great idea! I want to know the results like everyone else! Biggest thing, you can't do a falling leave or a catch and throw upward, maybe you can do a "drop and climb" instead of launching the kite from a grass area. I hope you get to video your flight in the next 4 days, you might put a camcorder on the kite too. Wow! You know your limits, the bridge and the time to try it. Nowadays I'd be afraid to look over the side of that bridge, 600'! I sure wouldn't know which knot to use on the leaders, I'd say whatever is pushing you at a certain point, is pulling you not far behind, seems like your personal neutral will need to change to the new view. And loading the sail and all that will change because normally you depend on the point on ground to start and stop at. Where's Pete? He knows the answer to this flight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makatakam Posted October 29, 2015 Report Share Posted October 29, 2015 When you fly the kite to the bottom of the window, down below the bridge, the wind will not let the kite get behind you, unless you hit the bottom at full speed. If it does fly beyond vertical, it will begin to stall, but because gravity is below you now it can't drop out of the sky and will merely hang there momentarily, and the wind will push it downwind, back to being somewhat in front of you. At that point you turn around and fly back up. Think of it this way: You are flying your kite at your favorite field. You attach a very flat bag to the back of your kite and fill it with enough helium so the kite becomes neutrally buoyant, so that you can manually put it 5 feet off the ground and it just stays there, moving neither up nor down in a dead calm. Now add wind. Would you have any problem flying it? By doing this you have effectively taken gravity out of the equation. Definitely get video. Pay someone if you have to; I'll cover it! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mywindstuff Posted October 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 The first day attempts are in ! Reason : curious how far below ground level I could fly a Rev before it/I couldn't recover to bring the kite back skyward with the elements at hand. Location : Rio Grande Gorge Bridge , Taos New Mexico. 10/29/2015 Wind / Weather : Overcast Skies , occasional sprinkles , winds blowing east/southeast , 6 to 7mph and less at ground level , Winds in the gorge were blowing north up the gorge maybe the same mph. Equipment : Rev 1.5 B Series Standard Sail , 3 wrap , 90# - 80ft lines We started on the east end of the bridge for set up , I put a lot of forward in the kite by way of the pigtails , figuring that would be needed towards the bottom of the new window as this new wind rainbow could possibly be a wind circle??? I launched the kite and started walking/flying west down the sidewalk heading towards one of 3 overlook cubbies about 6ft x 8ft in size , giving me a little more foot room if needed and keeping me on the sidewalk and off of the highway. Traffic is minimal as well as tourists this time of year, only about 6 visitors on the bridge at various times. The Sheriff did drive by while we flew but never stopped. This gave us some relief that the law wasn't concerned of our doings. I wasn't doing anything fancy and was more interested in the depth of the kites/my ability to fly below ground level. I did have to keep the kite moving at all times to keep pressure against the sails as the only great pressure I had was straight downwind which was parallel to the bridge (not exactly what I was wanting) I was hoping for southern or northern winds parallel to the gorge. I flew around left and right dipping lower and lower with most passes. I had to get my elbows over the handrail in order to still see the kite and to keep the lines from contacting the handrail. The few times I had to step back and load the sail from down below I would loose site of the Rev. I guess that my best depth below ground level was approximately 20ft that I could still bring the kite back up. How I learned that the winds were blowing north below the bridge was during one of my many times that I actually lost flight and the kite was dangling from the lines. So what happened next concerned me the most . As I was still in the first cubby (east one) , the structure of the bridge below me became part of what I hadn't considered. Yep me looking over the handrail straight down unable to see the Rev as it was blowing north under the bridge and my kite and lines are now becoming tangled in the bridge structure. So at this point I am thinking there is gonna be a rev at the bottom of the gorge (600ft) and I'm not goin down to get it. With a little patience I was able to get my kite back. So I thought , I sure don't want that to happen again. So from the sidewalk we launched the kite again and I walked to the middle cubby which put me in the middle of the bridge and with the least amount of bridge structure below me in case I was to loose flight again. So back and forth again , finally just reversing the kite as low as I thought I could go , 10 ft and back up, 15 ft and back up , 20ft maybe, then down again , Dangling ! So once again we launched and I figured well if the wind in the gorge was blowing north I would switch to the north side and this would give me wind against my sail deeper into the gorge. However with the southeastern breezes I wasn't comfortable much over the handrail and couldn't get the kite far enough to my left to try dipping again. Back across the road I went , landed on the sidewalk . and put everything away. I have about 20 minutes of video. and only posted 2 1/2 minutes to try and give you a look. I have a couple more days to maybe try it again. like waiting for the perfect surf wave , we are camped out here waiting on the north or south wind , will be changing to a 2 wrap frame for the next trial to shed some weight for the climb back up from the bottom of the new wind circle! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barresi Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 When you fly the kite to the bottom of the window, down below the bridge, the wind will not let the kite get behind you, unless you hit the bottom at full speed. If it does fly beyond vertical, it will begin to stall, but because gravity is below you now it can't drop out of the sky and will merely hang there momentarily, and the wind will push it downwind, back to being somewhat in front of you. At that point you turn around and fly back up. Think of it this way: You are flying your kite at your favorite field. You attach a very flat bag to the back of your kite and fill it with enough helium so the kite becomes neutrally buoyant, so that you can manually put it 5 feet off the ground and it just stays there, moving neither up nor down in a dead calm. Now add wind. Would you have any problem flying it? By doing this you have effectively taken gravity out of the equation. Definitely get video. Pay someone if you have to; I'll cover it! This pretty much covers it - the additions I have are... When the kite comes to "full bottom" and is resting / hanging, it's still possible to pull (up) on the kite somewhat to add pressure, or even rotate the kite while it's hanging and then power up by doing a little dogstake pull over the railing (if it's smooth)... Worst comes to worst if you're hanging dead, you can also try to get the kite into a soft figure 8 kind of motion to build up power toward the center of the window. Hope to hear more (safe) reports on this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barresi Posted October 30, 2015 Report Share Posted October 30, 2015 Ah, just watched the vid - that's freaky. lol 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 Bleeping incredible! For some reason I couldn't watch on my computer - but it was full screen on my phone!!! Nice job!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makatakam Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 I think a direct north or south wind, either up or down the gorge will give us a better idea of the possibilities. Talking to the wind gods right now and making the arrangements. Should be good tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyzakite Posted October 31, 2015 Report Share Posted October 31, 2015 That was Cool! I want to see more, You're just teasing for the big show! 6 cameras! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mywindstuff Posted November 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Ok, the winds never cooperated to make the best of the bridge flying. I was wanting that perfect north or south wind , so I could just put the kite in reverse in the middle of the window and lower it down in about 5ft increments of descent then come back up to ground level then down again , lowering with each attempt. Never happened So maybe next year I can try it again. I am thinking about flying off the arch in St. Louis MO. For a similar test, but I will have to put the REV together outside the little observation window as it won't fit assembled inside the Arch then put it out the window. JUST KIDDING! But I am looking for some other Bridge opportunities in my travels. Thanks for the Posts it motivates me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
White Rabbit Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 Thanks for keeping us in the loop. It was been an interesting discussion and now I'm tempted to start looking for bridges around here. Besides, I'm sure my older brother, at some point, told me to go fly a kite off a short bridge. Or something like that. -Rabbit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makatakam Posted November 4, 2015 Report Share Posted November 4, 2015 I was really hoping you would get that perfect wind. You got me interested in this, and now I'll be looking for the opportunity to try this. Thanks for the video. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeafThunder Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 Found it. It's for the mobile version but should get you there.That is so BEAUTIFUL and I was laughing happily ... love that guy lying down and RevKite sniffs, sniffs him like a dog ... so funny and excellent stillness/hovering ...The first day attempts are in ! That just gave me goosebumps ... it makes me think of how wind blows next to bridge ... twirling wind or straight wind ... the gorge got to have tons of twirling wind near bridge which is still invisible to naked eye, in another word, no flags to be seen to indicates the direction from which the wind is blowing ... Like a jet engine vertice smoke twirling test (NASA) ... crossed that path, oops. I like the idea what John said, do figure 8 to catch a glimp of wind to jump start the flying ... and I don't like the kite hiding under the bridge, which is like a blind man trying to pass the vehicle driving test ... I hope that your kite is OK without any band-aid I am sure that you will remember this awesome flying over the gorge ... I enjoyed it !!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mywindstuff Posted November 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 Thanks! I really was hoping for some better informative evaluations from the perfect wind, but maybe next time. Barresi could have made some great sense out of the conditions I was given , but he didn't show up I waited all day for him ,(not really) but wouldn't that of been a great show? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyzakite Posted November 11, 2015 Report Share Posted November 11, 2015 You actually doing it on your own was a "great show"! It was the first time I've seen that type of flight. A+ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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