Advice for a beginner to kiting and 2-line kites

[jasonmcmahon76]

2 minutes ago, SparkieRob said:

That's a wear patch. The upper spreader rubs on the sail during flight and manoeuvres and the wear patch is less delicate and will last longer.


Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app

Ah, that makes sense!

[Wayne Dowler]

Learning to "give to the kite" is something to learn  - right now, when you are most prone to crashes! As you found out, things break! Giving helps in keeping things safe and together. I know it is not a natural instinct, we think we can save the kite. But pulling accelerates the kite and drives it even harder into the ground! Then you go to straighten things out and find it broken - NFG! 

While I'm a quad guy, I've carried 2 stakes for many years - 1 for my kite and 1 for if I need to help someone else with theirs. I don't put mine in a pocket- but use a holster for them and hang them from my belt or belt loops, depending on what I'm wearing.

Can't go wrong with any of the kite lines offered if they are quality lines, it's the junk that will get you. Kite line is expensive due to the small market. It is made by companies that also make fishing lines, production doesn't compare. Kite line is made with a tighter weave than the fishing line, I recommend you stay away from the fishing stuff and get quality kite line!

Remember to relax and breathe!!

[RobB]

You will realize the importance of a kite stake when you're out flying in higher winds. Land safely... then what ? If you don't have a stake to hold the kite in place, you're kinda stuck. I only go without a stake in winds under 5mph.

[jasonmcmahon76]

7 hours ago, RobB said:

You will realize the importance of a kite stake when you're out flying in higher winds. Land safely... then what ? If you don't have a stake to hold the kite in place, you're kinda stuck. I only go without a stake in winds under 5mph.

Yeah that does make sense. I'm sorta kinda used to the lawn dart sticking out of the point of impact... 

[Exult]

Now I have read what the "fly away" is about (though I've forgotten/never known its name). It is when you during low wind gain ground by flying downwards, slacking the lines somewhat and letting the nose out a bit from you and let the kite glide downwards from you. Not a very strange and exotic move but quite useful during low wind days. This brings me to the next suggestion: even with the Quantum, don't stay home during the next low wind day. It is an excellent day to practice stalls, belly landings(/launches) and get acquainted with the ground in a non-destructive way. Whatever you try during such a day, it is not so likely that this will consume spare parts. A truth with few exceptions: No matter the weather - you can always learn something. Some tricks works best during certain conditions or needs focus on different aspects in different winds.

Now back to the turtles: If you start out by "turteling" at the top of the wind window - how do you as a beginner exit the turtle? I'd expect either two ways: the kite will "unturtle" by itself if you don't move forward or the kite will just continue on its back to the ground (well set up for the following start). Relax! - Both ways are OK!

Another suggestion (which I discovered quite late because I most of the time have flown on non-rocky and non-icy fields) is that you have vinyl (PVC) endcaps to protect the wing-tips/nocks. The ones I need to get more of (because I ran out of them) are the 10mm ones for "normal" kites and the 14mm ones for my Fazers. They frequently fall off - order many (and perhaps longer ones?)! For images see:
http://kitelife.com/forum/topic/7502-itw-hydra-leading-edge-tensioning/?do=findComment&comment=61866

 

[jasonmcmahon76]

8 hours ago, Exult said:

Now I have read what the "fly away" is about (though I've forgotten/never known its name). It is when you during low wind gain ground by flying downwards, slacking the lines somewhat and letting the nose out a bit from you and let the kite glide downwards from you. Not a very strange and exotic move but quite useful during low wind days.

I think I saw something of this in one of Dodd's videos, where he does something similar in a figure 8 pattern.

8 hours ago, Exult said:

Now back to the turtles: If you start out by "turteling" at the top of the wind window - how do you as a beginner exit the turtle? I'd expect either two ways: the kite will "unturtle" by itself if you don't move forward or the kite will just continue on its back to the ground (well set up for the following start). Relax! - Both ways are OK!

My parts are on the way!  Fingers crossed for a delivery on Monday.   Hopefully I will be able to give you an answer shortly thereafter!

8 hours ago, Exult said:

Another suggestion (which I discovered quite late because I most of the time have flown on non-rocky and non-icy fields) is that you have vinyl (PVC) endcaps to protect the wing-tips/nocks.

Something like this?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50-x-10mm-x-12-7mm-PVC-Caps-Finishing-Caps-Masking-Caps-End-Caps-Capping-/321830789256

[jasonmcmahon76]

On 2/9/2017 at 10:23 PM, jasonmcmahon76 said:

I will give to the kite. One day.

 

On 2/10/2017 at 1:19 AM, Wayne Dowler said:

Learning to "give to the kite" is something to learn  - right now, when you are most prone to crashes! As you found out, things break! Giving helps in keeping things safe and together. I know it is not a natural instinct, we think we can save the kite. But pulling accelerates the kite and drives it even harder into the ground! Then you go to straighten things out and find it broken - NFG! 

My sarcasm does not translate well in text, ahaha.  What I really mean is that I will probably take longer than I should to learn that lesson.   It's a bit like stalling a real plane - the nose drops and the correct action to recover is to push forward on the controls, which is pretty much the complete opposite of what you naturally want to do!

On 2/10/2017 at 1:19 AM, Wayne Dowler said:

While I'm a quad guy, I've carried 2 stakes for many years - 1 for my kite and 1 for if I need to help someone else with theirs. I don't put mine in a pocket- but use a holster for them and hang them from my belt or belt loops, depending on what I'm wearing.

Good idea, I might pinch that one!

On 2/10/2017 at 1:19 AM, Wayne Dowler said:

Can't go wrong with any of the kite lines offered if they are quality lines, it's the junk that will get you. Kite line is expensive due to the small market. It is made by companies that also make fishing lines, production doesn't compare. Kite line is made with a tighter weave than the fishing line, I recommend you stay away from the fishing stuff and get quality kite line!

I guess therein lies the problem... I don't know any different right now.  Prism's website says that the quantum ships with 85′ x 150 lbs Dyneema® (26 m x 68 kg), which I'm lead to believe is reasonably good stuff.

 

[Wayne Dowler]

Dyneema is OK, LPG (Laser Pro Gold), Shanti Speed, and Shanti Skybond are also better IMHO. Prism used to use a set called Modulus, guess that went away. Several line makers did go out of business, but a few remain. The market is small for us fliers!

[jasonmcmahon76]

On 2/9/2017 at 2:24 AM, jasonmcmahon76 said:

Hi Jim!  Thankyou, I have added these to a growing list of videos in a YouTube playlist!

Some links to my playlists for others in my current situation.

Dodd's Flight School
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWF-4E_6L8G4ayRAmySUqa7eQGqWmJOQP

Prism Quantum Kite Trick Videos

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWF-4E_6L8G4WTjughDeRunTsVav1limX

Kite Tricks: Axel

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWF-4E_6L8G6PPXdaGC07CXBckOaSQ9TB

[jasonmcmahon76]

9 minutes ago, Wayne Dowler said:

Dyneema is OK, LPG (Laser Pro Gold), Shanti Speed, and Shanti Skybond are also better IMHO. Prism used to use a set called Modulus, guess that went away. Several line makers did go out of business, but a few remain. The market is small for us fliers!

I'll live with 'OK' until I get the hang of things, then I'll look to start upgrading and modding!

[Wayne Dowler]

Just don't cheapo out on lines - it is your only connection to your kite! Got lines that stretch and give - all the feel gets lost in that. Good lines give you better feedback on how your kite is reacting!

[jasonmcmahon76]

1 minute ago, Wayne Dowler said:

Just don't cheapo out on lines - it is your only connection to your kite! Got lines that stretch and give - all the feel gets lost in that. Good lines give you better feedback on how your kite is reacting!

Ok I will keep that in mind! I only have a handful of flights under my belt at this point, so I'll start looking for that feel when I get back in the air next week.

[jasonmcmahon76]

While I'm thinking about lines, what are peoples's thoughts on the line handles?  Wrist loops versus finger loops?  

Also my Quantum lines come with loops that attach to quick release detachment things on the bridle but I see a lot of other kites just larks head over a knot.  Is there any benefit one way or the other?  I was also reading about line leaders between the line and the bridle - something to consider or only beneficial for a certain setup?

[Wayne Dowler]

Straps are very much an upgrade from any handle. Save you a lot of wear and tear on the body. Don't need to be those oversized foam things either, good wrist straps make a bunch of difference! Straps attach pretty easy if they have a loop on the end, just put the line loop through the strap loop and then put the strap through the line loop. Done!

[jasonmcmahon76]

3 minutes ago, Wayne Dowler said:

Straps are very much an upgrade from any handle. Save you a lot of wear and tear on the body. Don't need to be those oversized foam things either, good wrist straps make a bunch of difference! Straps attach pretty easy if they have a loop on the end, just put the line loop through the strap loop and then put the strap through the line loop. Done!

https://prismkites.com/product/equalizer-flight-straps-eqwst/

These are what I have, are adjustable and seem comfortable.

[makatakam]

Wrist straps are fine for now. Eventually you will want to better feel what your kite is doing and how the wind is moving it. At that point you can adjust your wrist straps so that you can put a fingertip on the line to feel the more subtle feedback that your kite is giving you, but until you can actually feel the difference there's no point to it. Once you begin stalling the kite and getting it to side slide consistently you will be ready for the changeover. The wind speed will also dictate whether to use wrist or finger straps. Make sure to broaden your horizons each time you fly. Try new and different stuff and become flexible in your approach. Be able to use whatever the situation calls for.

Most experienced pilots get rid of additional clutter and larkshead the line to the kite. The cleaner the setup, the cleaner it will fly. Remember, the kite has to lift everything attached to it; in light wind this additional weight may be the difference between flying and not. The leaders between the flying lines and the bridle are there to decrease the amount of wear to the sail and the flying lines when doing roll-up tricks like yo-yos. Until then, don't sweat it. And remember, we do this to have fun. Don't get frustrated if it doesn't happen for you instantly. Some things come easy while others don't. Have fun doing what comes easy, then throw in a minute or two of practice on those things that don't.

[jasonmcmahon76]

2 minutes ago, makatakam said:

And remember, we do this to have fun. Don't get frustrated if it doesn't happen for you instantly. Some things come easy while others don't. Have fun doing what comes easy, then throw in a minute or two of practice on those things that don't.

I am happy just doing loops and figure-8's etc. I would just like to get to a point where I'm not having to do the walk of shame so often!

[makatakam]

16 minutes ago, jasonmcmahon76 said:

I am happy just doing loops and figure-8's etc. I would just like to get to a point where I'm not having to do the walk of shame so often!

That never really goes away, just becomes less frequent. Besides, we can all use the exercise!

[RobB]

Learning ground recoveries will save a lot of walking. But... learning ground recoveries does come at a price, usually broken parts. It's also kinda boring flopping the kite around on the ground. 

Learn the feel of the kite, the key to tricking is getting the kite barely flying, almost falling out of the air, but not quite. The stall is probably one of the most important things to learn before you can attempt a lot of tricks. Controlling the stall, holding the stall, and sliding the stall might seem like boring exercises, but you won't get very far tricking without those skills.

I saw it mentioned earlier, the Lazy Susan. That was my first trick... fly all the way up, as high as the kite will go, and throw slack at the kite. The kite will flop over on its back, then you tug either the right or left line. The kite will rotate around 360* as it falls slowly. Once the rotation is complete, tension both lines evenly, and the kite should return to flying position and take off.

Another one of my first tricks was the flick-flack. I think Dodd covers that in his videos. It was pretty easy to learn for me. I was very challenged learning the axel, it took absolutely months, mostly because I had never seen it in person, and it's hard to tell what the kite is actually doing in the videos, other than it looks cool. I spent close to a year trying to learn the 540 as well. But, that's just me, I'm kinda learning challenged. I was able to teach someone else how to 540 in about a half hour, but I think his brain was more in tune with the kite than mine.

Best of luck, I hope you get a bunch of smooth wind and lots of time to fly. Exciting times... and I think your factory Prism lines will be fine for now, as long as they're even. At least within an inch, and it's nice if they're even closer. 

[jasonmcmahon76]

33 minutes ago, RobB said:

Learning ground recoveries will save a lot of walking. But... learning ground recoveries does come at a price, usually broken parts. It's also kinda boring flopping the kite around on the ground. 

I figured that there must be some tricks to getting the kite off the ground again.  I haven't had time to watch all of Dodd's videos yet, and I haven't bothered with anything more advanced than the axel.

40 minutes ago, RobB said:

Learn the feel of the kite, the key to tricking is getting the kite barely flying, almost falling out of the air, but not quite. The stall is probably one of the most important things to learn before you can attempt a lot of tricks. Controlling the stall, holding the stall, and sliding the stall might seem like boring exercises, but you won't get very far tricking without those skills.

 

I'm hoping to start learning to do that this week.  Small steps!

39 minutes ago, RobB said:

I saw it mentioned earlier, the Lazy Susan. That was my first trick... fly all the way up, as high as the kite will go, and throw slack at the kite. The kite will flop over on its back, then you tug either the right or left line. The kite will rotate around 360* as it falls slowly. Once the rotation is complete, tension both lines evenly, and the kite should return to flying position and take off.

I'm hoping to have a go at this this week, as well.

44 minutes ago, RobB said:

Another one of my first tricks was the flick-flack. I think Dodd covers that in his videos. It was pretty easy to learn for me.

I just looked at a Flick Flack.  I have no idea what makes the kite move like that!

45 minutes ago, RobB said:

was very challenged learning the axel, it took absolutely months, mostly because I had never seen it in person, and it's hard to tell what the kite is actually doing in the videos, other than it looks cool. I spent close to a year trying to learn the 540 as well. But, that's just me, I'm kinda learning challenged. I was able to teach someone else how to 540 in about a half hour, but I think his brain was more in tune with the kite than mine.

The axel is very confusing to watch without seeing the inputs.  540 equally so!

48 minutes ago, RobB said:

Best of luck, I hope you get a bunch of smooth wind and lots of time to fly. Exciting times... and I think your factory Prism lines will be fine for now, as long as they're even. At least within an inch, and it's nice if they're even closer. 

Thank you!  Winds forecast to be southwesterly this week, between 11 and 29 km/h so hopefully I will get some decent time to play.

[Exult]

12 hours ago, jasonmcmahon76 said:

I think I saw something of this in one of Dodd's videos, where he does something similar in a figure 8 pattern.

Hmm... it sounds like I have to re-watch them. Something like using the centre of the wind window to lift the kite when you are in the middle part of the eight figure?

12 hours ago, jasonmcmahon76 said:

My parts are on the way!  Fingers crossed for a delivery on Monday.   Hopefully I will be able to give you an answer shortly thereafter!

I'm all ears and look forward to hear about your process, but let the things take the time it takes and progress in your pace.

12 hours ago, jasonmcmahon76 said:

Something like this?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/50-x-10mm-x-12-7mm-PVC-Caps-Finishing-Caps-Masking-Caps-End-Caps-Capping-/321830789256

Looks just like it.

5 hours ago, makatakam said:

5 hours ago, jasonmcmahon76 said:

I am happy just doing loops and figure-8's etc. I would just like to get to a point where I'm not having to do the walk of shame so often!

That never really goes away, just becomes less frequent. Besides, we can all use the exercise!

I agree, there is nothing wrong with figure eight flying. Once you have gotten them reliable you can aim for making them "perfect" so the flight path is like connected circles. One can also make a standing eight pattern, think about the start and exit of the figure eight flying, strive for constant velocity and if, you feel like it, also try to make them as small as possible. Control never goes out of fashion!

4 hours ago, RobB said:

Learning ground recoveries will save a lot of walking. But... learning ground recoveries does come at a price, usually broken parts.

About breaking parts during ground recoveries - well if you don't use force they won't (exception thorns ripping your sail). Pre-start, lightly pull the lines and feel and look! I'd say (and thought for a long time) that there are no reason to break any parts during start. However, I have broken stand offs on my Fazers during the last half a year. The reason? -  I didn't see that a line was around the sail and was impatient to take off after people moved into the area and took aaaaages to leave. I used 35m lines on both occasions so it was not so easy to see that the line was around the wing. These kites are also a bit heavy so you use more force in the start than otherwise. So what should have been done to prevent this? - Feel the kite through the lines! Does it feel normal (though this check is more difficult if it happens to be a soft snow layer)? Can you see the trailing edge moving when you do the test pulling?

4 hours ago, RobB said:

It's also kinda boring flopping the kite around on the ground. 

I'm easily amused! Also for long pause-less sessions doing a higher degree of ground work, starts and landings it is more relaxing for your neck than looking high up in the air. OK, I did say (in an old blog) that I thought that using cart wheels as a mean of recovery was "as thrilling as cold porridge", but I've reconsidered partially when I realized that there was room for improvement. Also cart wheels can be made with as little input or be as smooth as possible. To achieve this for high aspect ratio and large kites, demand the right inputs and my attention.

4 hours ago, RobB said:

Another one of my first tricks was the flick-flack. I think Dodd covers that in his videos. It was pretty easy to learn for me.

Hrm... hrm... hrm... you are not making things easier for me - I still can't do that trick...

[SparkieRob]

Every time I fly duals I fly at least 5 of the Compulsory Figures from the DI section. Not the same ones each time. I find it good to put a little structure in it. And. Eventually I want to compete. I still free fly for fun. I practice tricks.

Straps. I started on wrist straps. Then I got some finger straps. I find myself going back to wrist straps. Try them all to find your flavour. The BOAS straps allow you to convert between the two. Not sure if there are any in Oz kite shops though.


Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app

[makatakam]

The Prism Freestyle DVD has good relaunch info as I recall. Wrist straps can be ordered online and are light enough so shipping is minimal.

[Joe Eyman]

Just my two cents worth......
Good headphones [emoji442] music [emoji445] just makes a fun activity so much more [emoji41]


Sent from my iPad using KiteLife mobile app

[RobB]

8 hours ago, Exult said:

Hrm... hrm... hrm... you are not making things easier for me - I still can't do that trick...

Full disclosure here. I didn't learn this from a video. I was driving home in traffic one day (New York traffic is rough) and I saw a guy flying right off the highway. Super random, I had to stop. Turned out to be a really advanced pilot, and he was flying a Sea Devil. I talked with him a little and watched him fly. I couldn't tell most of what he was doing, but I recognized the flic flacs. The motion was easy enough, fly down from the top of the window, throw slack to flare, and then a wrist pop to flip into a fade. Slack is key... keep walking forward while doing this.

It really helps to see people doing these things in person, learning from a video is difficult. Unfortunately, I don't think I ever saw that guy again, I didn't think to take his name or contact at the time, so I never got to thank him. I didn't know that he had taught me how to flic flac until the next time I went out to fly. This was well over 10 years ago, I returned to the roadside flying spot a number of times, and flew by myself, hoping to run into him again, even though it is literally against the law to fly there...