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jasonmcmahon76

Advice for a beginner to kiting and 2-line kites

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On February 13, 2017 at 8:02 PM, cerfvoliste said:

I am going to step off a cliff here. Major departure.
Forget the "Snap Stall," it is a waste of time if you're moving on to modern kites.
Let the flames begin.
@

No Matter Where You Go, There You Are.
 

Flame on brother. :)

I think this is all and good if you're flying a yo-yo and don't actually fly "track".

My career started the year standoffs were really introduced to the market commercially... With so much old school background I still favor lock, load, pop, stop, carve, corner, stall, exit right, stall, exit right, snap lazy, exit right to a combo kind of guy... "Track", punctuated with tricks... For this, the snap stall (includes tip stabs) is one of my favorite moves and the mark of a great flight control pilot imho - no slight to tricksters, still respect.

More of a smolder than a flame, but good on ya - job done. :)

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1 hour ago, John Barresi said:

I am going to step off a cliff here. Major departure.
Forget the "Snap Stall," it is a waste of time if you're moving on to modern kites.

Crazy thing, the Fearless & Sea Devil both excel at the snap-stall. I guess they really can't be considered 'modern' anymore, they're both 10 or more years old.

I like to stall & hover dual lines to practise control, but I think it looks cool, too.

 

Quote

First the flick flacks that you got "for free" and now the Prophesy, I see that you further wish to torment me :). I once was about to buy a new one at 50% discount, but it kind of disappeared in thin air only seconds before my purchase.

Keep you eyes open, Prophecies change hands every once in a while. I let my first Proph go to a friend in trade for a Sea Devil, and regretted it the moment I sent the box. I was lucky enough to find one years later, same exact colors, complete with the special padded bag. And yes, you can flic-flac a Proph if you have long arms !

Quote

I've just finished putting a stake together from some odds and ends in the shed.   Just have to give it a lick of paint!

Good looking stake. Looks like you intend to use it in a grass field. Now... you're gonna need a holster for it. Or, the hammer loop in carpenter's pants will probably work.

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23 minutes ago, RobB said:

Good looking stake. Looks like you intend to use it in a grass field. Now... you're gonna need a holster for it. Or, the hammer loop in carpenter's pants will probably work.

Thank you!  I like having excuses to get into the shed. As you say, this one is for grass, I'll find something else for sand. 

I was thinking about looking through a surplus/camping store for something to use as a holster. 

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First video uploaded! From my first real go with the Quantum.

I thought the wind was a bit marginal, but I was pleasantly surprised how well it went.  It even pulled the tail ok(ish),  

I still have to edit the video of the second session from later in the day when the wind was stronger.   Where I somehow managed to break the kite.  At least that is something that I can do at work!

I managed to find a relic of my RC glider days that will come in handy - A pocket anemometer! 

Went to the beach with my girls and had another decent go.   I also took video of that but about half of it wasn't pointed in the right direction.   One question in advance of that: with a steady wind, in this case between 10-17 km/h (5-9kt), the kite had a fairly decent pull on it when it wasn't around the top or edges of the window.   Now I wasn't trying to do any tricks, but I was wondering if there is a top speed that you can do slack line tricks at?  Or does it just involve running at the kite a lot harder?

 

 

 

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Yes, the higher the wind, the faster you have to run towards the kite to get the slack required to pull off some tricks. I stop flying dual lines once the wind reaches double digits (mph) and switch over to flying four line kites. Also, flying on the edge of the wind window will allow you better slack in higher winds. 

The wind looked perfect in the video to try some tricks, though. The kite looked really nice with the tail, it looks like you got a Prism tail, as well. You've probably found that the Quantum pulls pretty hard. I've flown the Quantum in winds over 20mph, it's a good workout !

Nice going, I'm interested to hear of your progress.

BTW... I think you have a smudge on your camera lens, just left of centre. At first, I thought you were flying through a low cloud...

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Make sure you equalize your flight lines. Even brand new factory packaged line sets can be off. It could be just my skewed perspective, but it appears the kite tracks to the left when hands appear neutral. Very quickly and tightly spins left in a left turn and a slower broader turn when going right. But it might just be me looking at it funny.  :D

Much like having the front end aligned on your car to make it drive straight, equalized flight lines makes everything better.

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A piece of "bridle line" doubled over with some knots in it close together, between your straps and line make it easier to quickly equalise in the field.
Obviously you want 2 of them...


Sent from my iPhone using KiteLife mobile app

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4 hours ago, Tim P. said:

Make sure you equalize your flight lines. Even brand new factory packaged line sets can be off. It could be just my skewed perspective, but it appears the kite tracks to the left when hands appear neutral. Very quickly and tightly spins left in a left turn and a slower broader turn when going right. But it might just be me looking at it funny.  :D

Much like having the front end aligned on your car to make it drive straight, equalized flight lines makes everything better.

Good eye!   I just dragged the lines out in the backyard, the right hand line was about an inch and a half longer.  Not sure if that tracks with what you were seeing, but have equalised them now.

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6 hours ago, RobB said:

The wind looked perfect in the video to try some tricks, though. The kite looked really nice with the tail, it looks like you got a Prism tail, as well. You've probably found that the Quantum pulls pretty hard. I've flown the Quantum in winds over 20mph, it's a good workout !

Now that I've had a go in a decent wind, I can see how what I thought was a marginally light breeze would be really good for doing tricks.   You are not wrong about it being a workout!  I definitely felt it the next morning, haha!

6 hours ago, RobB said:

BTW... I think you have a smudge on your camera lens, just left of centre. At first, I thought you were flying through a low cloud...

Unfortunately that is a small scratch on the lens of my GoPro. :(

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4 hours ago, SparkieRob said:

A piece of "bridle line" doubled over with some knots in it close together, between your straps and line make it easier to quickly equalise in the field.
Obviously you want 2 of them...

The Quantum came with Prism's 'Equaliser' straps, which are adjustable.  I just went out and checked the lines, turns out one was an inch and a half longer.

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Third video uploaded! Unfortunately I missed half of my flying due to the GoPro being pointed in the wrong direction.:(

In this session I was playing around with finding the outer edges of the window and landing the kite, I was also trying to get a handle on pull, push and combination turns.  Also played with Low Passes.  I had three unintended arrivals, one of which was due to the tail having sand in it from the previous arrival.   I forgot to put it in the video, but the wind was around 10-16km/h... I found out that the kite really can pull!

Oh yeah, this video was shot before it was suggested that I check my lines were equal lengths - The right one was longer. 

Next time out I'm planning to have a go at the moves from Dodd's 6 step learning/practice video.   I want to start working on some precision, I feel a bit like that I'm just hanging on while the kite screams around the sky!

I also did my first mod... Someone suggested that I should lengthen the leader for the tail to help it inflate more, so I got some builder's line and made one up.  Not sure if I really need the heavier rope as the connection to the kite.  I may replace that.

Follow the leader 

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nice play.

quantum is a big powerful kite and is pulling hard in more then 8 MPH winds, adding a tail you keep the sail more in the wind having harder pull then without

you have some adjustments on the bridle for light, moderate and hard winds. you may play with that depending of the wind condition and for sure you will have less pull with the right setup. the pigtail what you have tied to the swivel is more then enough (30-50 LBS)  

i may suggest you in hard winds to play more on the neutral zone (left 9 to 10 or right 2 to 3) till you will have more experience to control and land the kite without to damage it 

windwindow2.jpg

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6 minutes ago, Edmond Dragut said:

quantum is a big powerful kite and is pulling hard in more then 8 MPH winds, adding a tail you keep the sail more in the wind having harder pull then without

Could you explain this a little more? By adding the tail I make the kite pull harder?

6 minutes ago, Edmond Dragut said:

you have some adjustments on the bridle for light, moderate and hard winds. you may play with that depending of the wind condition and for sure you will have less pull with the right setup.

I had the bridle adjusted for medium and strong winds. In the video it was at full strong winds.

6 minutes ago, Edmond Dragut said:

the pigtail what you have tied to the swivel is more then enough (30-50 LBS)

Thanks, I'll replace the heavier stuff tomorrow.

6 minutes ago, Edmond Dragut said:

i may suggest you in hard winds to play more on the neutral zone (left 9 to 10 or right 2 to 3) till you will have more experience to control and land the kite without to damage it 

I did have a good play out on the edges and found I could hover where I wanted and touch down softly.

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the setup of the bridle keep the kite more or less in the wind. adding a tail you ad a weight to that make the wind to hit the sail more even the bridle is setup for hard winds. some kites have weight added to the tail to change the fly characteristics (no bridle setup) or to making them more tricky

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6 minutes ago, Edmond Dragut said:

the setup of the bridle keep the kite more or less in the wind. adding a tail you ad a weight to that make the wind to hit the sail more even the bridle is setup for hard winds. some kites have weight added to the tail to change the fly characteristics (no bridle setup) or to making them more tricky

Ahhh, of course!  Good to know...I had read that the tail slows the kite down, but not that it causes a stronger pull.

Thank you!

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More pull from a slow kite? - sorry and apologize, but that sounds fishy to me and I simply cannot agree.

Typically the forces form a particular case, with everything else constant is well modeled by being proportional to the density of the fluid (e.g. air, water, Hg...) and the velocity squared. This gives us the first hint.

I try my best to make an analogy to a kite flying through the centre of the wind window. The path/direction relative to the kite/wing/foil is fixed and set by the bridle. The lift from the kite can be felt through the line. Now imagine a motorized aeroplane with a the pilot constantly aiming at the horizon. If the pilot now reduces the speed by reducing the power of the motor (or by letting the plane suddenly tow a long banner), would we now expect the plane to rise due to increased lift from the wings? No, of course not it will sink when the plane moves slower!

Another case. Imagine a sailing yacht with no sails up, but the boat yet got some (residual) speed. Now turn the boat by angling the rudder by a few degrees. Now will the boat turn quickest if it is moving fast or slowly through the water? Of course we will have more force from the rudder when it is moving fast through the water and the boat will turn quickest when it is moving rapidly. Imagine what would happen otherwise if the speed of the boat approached zero.

Is it common for owners of small power kites to put tails on them to reduce speed and thereby increase pull during low wind days? No of course not!

Here is my (un-published not proof read) log from a day when I tried to reduce pull of my Fazel XL during a windy day:
 

Quote

Some windy tricking and Attempting to Slow Down the Fazer XL using a Tail
Sat Nov 26 15:54:06 CET 2016
GF, forecasted 5m/s increasing to 7m/s
Fazer XL on 35m 75kg lines

A bit windy today, so I wanted to try with something robust today - the Fazer XL. Today the tricking was a bit limited - mainly proven stuff like axels, side slides, turtles, coin toss, wing tip stand... and figure flying. The reason was the hard wind and dogs and occasionally people approaching the area under the kite. Also the not so very strong lines (recommended 140kg) frequently had me running downstreams not to put too much load on the lines - got to get me stronger 35m lines! The 90 deg turns were not the sharp and wobble free today. I don't know if it was the hard wind or me avoiding to have much input on the lines to make them last.

One trick I didn't try out during the last session with the Fazer XL was the fade launch - it did not behave much different to other kites here. Perhaps the fact that it worked in the hard wind and rose high without unfading says something of the kite?

The high wind and aspect ratio made the cart wheels a bit difficult. The way seems to be to make the top wing sink back and make "a large pull" then be easier with with the second pull that pulls it into launch position. Should investigate this more and transfer it to my smaller kites.

So far the only kite that I've flown with a the tail is the Tramontana. Since the wind picked up I connected my (one and only) 25m black and white tube tail to the Fazer XL. I'd say that there was some reduction in pull but hardly noticeable. You could without problem put one more tail on or perhaps a wider/longer.

Problem/damage report:
BB LS and batten pops out during ground work. The clips closest to NN also moves from it original position. Well at least it is easy to find the original positions. I have re-done or reinforced all clips. They were all poorly done originally with very little glue contacting the clip. Also i should secure the battens with a small string (fishing line?)
BB The stand off had frayed it turned out. When thinking back on the session I hadn't been very gentle. Another sad kite to the collection of the other sad kites.

A dog (that just had been bitten by another dog) ran into the lines that was on the ground (while the kite was on the ground) and got tangled. When this was taken care of the kite + tail had blown about 35m away in a mess. A vinyl cap got stuck in the wet clay-like soil).
 

 

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Something on that bridle adjustment for 'strong' wind. By adjusting to the 'strong wind' setting, you are actually increasing the pull on the lines. The next time the wind is blowing strong, try adjusting more towards the 'light wind' setting. I know this doesn't sound right, but it works for me. 

If anything, there will be less stress on the kite, which is a good thing. The Quantum is a very strong kite, you are very unlikely to find its breaking point, but having it adjusted for 'strong wind' in high winds is the best way to try...

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34 minutes ago, RobB said:

Something on that bridle adjustment for 'strong' wind. By adjusting to the 'strong wind' setting, you are actually increasing the pull on the lines. The next time the wind is blowing strong, try adjusting more towards the 'light wind' setting. I know this doesn't sound right, but it works for me. 

If anything, there will be less stress on the kite, which is a good thing. The Quantum is a very strong kite, you are very unlikely to find its breaking point, but having it adjusted for 'strong wind' in high winds is the best way to try...

Uhhh... that's pretty much the opposite of what Prism's guide says! 

https://prismkites.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Stunt-Kite-Tips-and-Hints-bridle-settings.pdf

Edit: The diagrams indicate that the kite should be nose tipped back in strong winds, but what it actually says is "...in strong winds you'll find it turns easier and pulls harder with the pigtails below the marks (nose tipped back)".   I will try it next time I'm out in strong winds

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Flew dual line for many years - tip the nose forward! It won't turn quite as fast, but will have less pull! I know it is against the manual - sometimes you find out stuff just trying things. 

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1 hour ago, Wayne Dowler said:

Flew dual line for many years - tip the nose forward! It won't turn quite as fast, but will have less pull! I know it is against the manual - sometimes you find out stuff just trying things. 

I mean, from what I know of aerodynamics, it makes sense: high airspeed, low angle of attack.  Does that mean the reverse is also true?  Move the nose back in low winds for a higher angle of attack, therefore more lift?

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Nope. Seems like the nose tipping works for both ends of the range. When I flew dual line, all my adjustments were either middle or nose forward. Might have changed over the years as we've gotten better at design and stuff, but that Quantum design is "old school" to a degree, and all the old adjustments should still apply!

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Sorry, should have been clearer. My post above was about the previous statement that a tail on a kite should increase the pull on the lines. It did not cover the case of an adjusted bridle.

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9 minutes ago, Exult said:

Sorry, should have been clearer. My post above was about the previous statement that a tail on a kite should increase the pull on the lines. It did not cover the case of an adjusted bridle.

The conclusion that I was jumping to (correctly or more likely otherwise), was that the drag of the tail on the back of the kite would cause a more nose up/back angle of attack and thus more lift.

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