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Hi all.

This a continuation of my introduction thread found right here

 

Basically I'm a new flyer who had a paimpol expresso, just got a prism hypnotist (haven't got it in the air yet) and just asking questions around:lol:

 

So my latest inquiry is: Is there a noticeable difference between a brandname dyneema  line like the one sold by prism and a dyneema line sold on ebay? (I know dyneema is a brand name. but you get what i mean). 

and just because: here's a pic B)

4m.jpg

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I have gone through several stages in my KiteLife regarding lines.  Started with "Dang kite string is costly!".  Advanced to next stage  got lines, go fly.  Line length? Line strength? Line material?

Most. Theresa at the Kite Shoppe, prestretches all her line sets before making them up. I've made many of my own sets using a luggage scale to evenly stretch all my lines.  Eventually the coating

Yep it's a finger/wrist strap combo. I have a very limited experience but its lighter than my prism equalizer straps. looks like it's made of the same material as keychain neck straps and is actually

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on e-Bay most of Dyneema lines are fishing lines and they are not pre-stretched even if they state to have 0 to none stretch. if you have time and you want good cheap lines you must to stretch them before to tide the second end and place the sleeve . i do wit that with a 50# lines for mi Zen and i find out at 40 fits to have around 2 fits stretch. is easy to stretch the lines using a weighing hook scale. sleeve one side of the line and anchor really good that side, go at the unsleeve end, tide the hook of the scale with 2 double 8 knots and start to pull gradual till close of the line strength maintaining the pull at desired value for couple of seconds. there you go! you have now a cheap line with insignificant stretch. i recommend you if you chose  to buy from e-Bay lines to buy 8 strand lines and with this stretching there are better then Dyneema provided by kite stores. 

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9 hours ago, Fluke said:

So my latest inquiry is: Is there a noticeable difference between a brandname dyneema  line like the one sold by prism and a dyneema line sold on ebay? (I know dyneema is a brand name. but you get what i mean). 

Yes, I too would like some insight here. I have been told that both Dyneema and Spectra are simply brand names. After doing a little research I find that this is correct, and that both brands use Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene Fibers for kite line production. But when you see other brands such as Shanti or Laser Gold Pro, their descriptions state "made from 100% Spectra Fibers". Is this just one brand re-branding, or are these terms being used interchangeably when they shouldn't be?

As I side note, I notice that Prism uses both Dyneema and Spectra for the lines that they include with their kites, at least according to the descriptions. If these are in fact just brand names, why wouldn't they just stick with one. Leads me to believe there must be some subtle differences.

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Dyneema and Spectra are material names, not finished product names. Laser Pro and Shanti are both kite line makers, using Spectra and/or Dyneema in their manufacturing process. As with most raw materials, you can get differing grades of your raw materials. Kite line makers (known) use the best to start with, as it is a "niche" market. The issue is weave, tighter is better in kite flying. More direct feel between you and kite. The looser weave is for fishing, the looser weave absorbs shock of the hook set better. Why there is so much difference in price, they use less,  that and the overall production percentages - probably something like 95% to 5%, fishing line to kite line, make our lines more expensive.

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SkyBond lines are coated with a polymer alloy make them more slippery and more durable to abrasion and water damage also to be more thinner and lighter then other lines at the same stretch.

Ultimately the difference between different brands is the manufacturer, with or without core, the number of strands and the tighten between them.

using one brand in favor of another is a personal choice of how you feel the line acting (i love SkyBond and i hate LaserPro, Laser and Shanti-Dineema being in between )  

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Most. Theresa at the Kite Shoppe, prestretches all her line sets before making them up. I've made many of my own sets using a luggage scale to evenly stretch all my lines. 

Eventually the coating will wear, the line inside wears, and they get plain old worn out. You can make "shorties" out of them if there is still good left.

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This is just my opinion, but shared by many others - 

The only thing keeping you in contact with your kite - is the lines! Stretchy lines give you way less control, all the good stuff does. I've used just about every line made in almost 30 years of flying. I prefer NOT to skimp on my lines.  YMMV

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TBH, even pre-stretched lines encounter some stretch. It just happens. When you're dealing with woven lines under constant force, stretch does creep in. Even 1/4" difference is enough to throw you off. Just get into the habit of periodically reviewing your lines when setting up your kite. You'll have plenty of opportunities to adjust your line length. Consider the chance for stretch when they say up to 2% of stretch can occur. On a set of 120's that is over 2 feet!

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I have gone through several stages in my KiteLife regarding lines.  Started with "Dang kite string is costly!".  Advanced to next stage  got lines, go fly.  Line length? Line strength? Line material?  Equalization?  Know Eye Deer, just fly.  Next stage, read forums & wonder what all the lingo means.  Enlightenment commences with line strength & lengths.

One day I decide to add brake lines to my newly acquired Snap Shot 2.5.  Still at "Dang kite string is costly!" stage.  Launch kite with new brake lines for my first quad experience.  Brake lines too long hanging down in big droops.  Not enough adjustment on the brake bridles to compensate.  Hmm, how do I deal with this?  Back to the forum to read about shortening lines.  Intuitively I make all four lines the same length because it just seems logical.  Important? Know Eye Deer.

 Revs seemed way too expensive.  My wife gives me one RTF as a gift.  Got lucky with a line set of LPG, lines were already correct.  Start flying that one.  Found out I flew "right handed".  Top right line gets a bit longer than the rest but I am oblivious to the issue.  Joined KiteLife & began to learn from the Pros or Masters I called them.  Learned about equalization.  Learned about importance of checking & maintaining lines for optimum flight characteristics.  Developed Obsessive Kite Disorder regarding lines, became very opinionated.  Made line sets like mad.  Stuck at the mall waiting for the boss, worked on line sets in the parking lot.  Made rig for measuring line lengths.  Installed hardware on the hitching post to stress lines using pulleys & weights on the far end under the apple tree.  Was developing a bad case of Obsessive Kite Disorder but did not know it at that time.

line measuring rig.jpg line pulley.jpgDSC07759.JPG

Then one day I decided to just fly lines with dualies to give them a set.  If need a quad set just do it twice.    Now I use knots on the leaders to make large equalizations.  Small adjustments are made by tying extra knots in the line loops.  Have plenty of Rev handles now so I can leave sets already tuned attached to dedicated handles.  Have acquired many many sets of lines & plenty of straps to go with them.  Most of the time now I just test for equalization by launching with paired straps or handles in a neutral position & see if the kite goes mostly straight up.  Tuning done as needed in the field.  Dang kite string is still expensive!  SHBKF

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So Spectra or Dyneema are brand names to confuse you (or are there any subtle differences)? For me there are mainly two types of lines: polyethene aka. polyethylene and polyester lines. (The kevlar line I've heard (a long time ago) is ugly because it is extra easy to get badly cut due to its high friction. Any truth in this? Haven't seen them being sold though.)

  • Polyethene aka. polyethylene lines. The main difference between your ordinary plastic bag are that the long molecule chains are parallel to the line and the molecule chains are much longer. This type of lines is what you typically use in multi line kiting for good control and what you hopefully get when lines are shipped with the kite. I have never been really thrilled by the lines that comes with a RTF/R2F (ready to fly) kite - they have had a kind of rough feel. Most of the time I use Climax Profiline for DLKs and for my current QLK rookie fad I use Liros. Apart from the colours I can't see or feel any difference between the two brands, but then I use them in a different ways. And nope, never tried those LPG or Shanti lines.
  • Polyester lines. Good for SLK (gliders excluded?) but too flexible/spongy and not low-friction/slippery enough for multi line kiting. It is a scourge of the serious multi line kiter. I've been to two small local kite festivals during this millennium (the total number of other DLKs were three frequently lawn-darted odd/low quality ones). I started out a bit away from others (SLKs i.e.) to get more room and better winds. What follows is that the barely flying and low flying SLKers see a kite/place where the wind appears to be good and maneuvers their kites with lines almost parallel to the ground (SLKs requiring somewhat higher winds or SLKs just less well tuned?) towards me (or do they just want want to watch from a closer distance?). I have had three line sets chopped off when polyester lines have crossed my path during these two festivals:angry:! This makes me think I ought to buy a long spool of 40kg kite line instead of line sets and then prepare a set-of-line-sets and consider them kite festival consumables?
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Polyester is also known as Dacron and is not suitable for stunt kite lines. Way too stretchy, even in its best form. Good for single line kites only, that stretch will take up the shock of lulls and gusts. Would not advise for stunt use!

Polyethene or polyethylene (dyneema, spectra) is for stunt use. I would suggest sticking with known lines - LPG, Shanti Speed, Shanti Skybond. If you can find them - the Prism lines are OK too. Some of the internet stuff is pretty much junk. Expensive - yes, but not the place to cheap out - IMHO!

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thanks for the brand names. i know what to look for now ;)

 

what length and weight do you recommend? i tried my hypno lines on the expresso (26m 68kg according to prism website) but it just felt heavy with a lot of slack compared to when used with the hypno. I understand the smaller frame needs more wind too but i need to make a line set for it anyway so what specs would you recommend?

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If I converted measurement correctly - that Expresso is less than 4' in wingspan? A bit weighty using 150# lines! Not knowing the weather you deal with locally, 90# lines might work? Really depends on the kite's design and conditions you use it in. Does the kite pull strongly? 85' sounds OK for length, just got to find a weight not too much for it.  Or maybe both shorter and lighter?

Sorry have no experience using this sail - kinda guessing on what could work....

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Back after a few flights. Pretty windy around here so i tried my best to stay on the edge of the wind window (i wonder if ripstop can stretch in high wind? Lol. Noob question)

Anyhow i got pretty good at landing/recovering/relaunching (dodd gross vids helped). Didn't have many lawn darts and those who happened weren't high speed/impact so no damage so far (knock on wood) i even tried a few turtles

Things are going great so far. Next session i'll try to spend more time practicing stalls and landing on both wingtips



Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L21 using KiteLife mobile app

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Yes, it is possible for ripstop to have some minimal stretching. Especially when flown in high winds. That's why there are vented kites. Too much pressure could cause any number of parts to fail. 

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      LL - Repeat 4: WAVES - LL
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      To make my muscles remember this I did an exercise. I let the kite do an upside down "U" while sliding from left to right and keeping the LE pointing outwards. In the straight parts of the "U", both up and down, angle the top of the handle that you keep closest to you so that the handle top comes even closer to you, while on the extended arm angle the top of the handle from you. In the curved part of the upside down "U" reduce the relative twist of the handles.
      The second exercise I had that was related to the grid was also geared towards the vertical slides. I pretended the team consists of two or four persons so that the part of the time I did the vertical slides increased. The steps of the grid was then repeated over and over and over.

      After the latest training session I came to the realization that this art sometimes requires a sacrifice.
      Finally, before publishing this post I got the bright idea to read what other experienced pilots have written:
      https://web.archive.org/web/20060127225614/http://www.kitelife.com:80/archives/SEPT991/team.htm
      http://www.rehilliard.net/pdf/AKATeamFlyingManualbyTroyGunn.pdf (thanks again A. for the link)
      http://kitelife.com/1998/05/01/issue-2-beginning-ballet/
      http://kitelife.com/1998/06/01/issue-3-team-basics/
      Ouch, there were many issues with coordinating with others in the above links, this is a bit hard to do on your own. Perhaps I'll try to do the mini kite on a stick anyhow to rehearse the routine (for the event above) as also recommended in the links above. Perhaps it is more efficient for learning than the compressed terse text form is? But on the other hand, writing/reading text during a public transportation ride doesn't look funny, while waving a stick kite could. In an unrestricted wish list, there would be an online common stick practice simulator with verbal communication option, so that at least that aspect of team flying without distant travelling could be covered. Perhaps a (sub set of a) FPS like WASD/mouse control input for controlling your online kite?
      Rev rutin BLOKHUS.mp4
      NKM2018Revrutin.pdf
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