RobB

Have you seen this ?

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On 4/25/2018 at 6:11 PM, RobB said:

the above looks like a cheap 'knock-off' !

Fwiw,

 

That looks so cheaply done even their own RX design looks better.

 

And this one as a visual wing still doesn't even come close to what Bazzer has been putting out recently with his hand-crafted Eyes series with the "bloodshot" fx!

 

If you're ever considering adding an Eyes to your bag, there's only one place to go for the dollar you put down.

Down unda.

 

Bazzer's work is so significant the kite feels and flies so much better than the my 1.5b, would only imagine the B-pro just as refined. I love the way the Phoenix flies I try to fly it all the time even when I know the Ash will be overpowered going beyond the recommended wind range. But it's so worth it, what a difference from my 1.5b! (Bad comparison since my 1.5b is mv and Bazzer's kite is Ash, but when flown at optimal wind speeds for each respective kite, I find the difference noticeable)

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I don’t feel comfortable posting offline conversations but will summarize with:

Joes summary
Rev sails are made by same company in Spain that they have used for years and not cheap China spinoffs as I called them, their rods and hardware are of highest quality along with single sheet printed sails which have been in use for years, eyes were not copyrighted and there are differences in appearance they are not owned by anyone, their (Revs) business plan did not change and Rev is all about exposing new folks to kiting, fun experiences and educating users to Master levels with Club 38.

Mikes unanswered or no comment to questions were related to:

So few or no more pro or Master level Revolution branded kites, communication to end users regarding discontinuing products which produced outcomes where some kite makers and end users have decided to leave them versus continue with company direction in entry level successes and poor customer service experiences.

I’m hoping some time in the future they jump back into a innovator position but for now they do offer a great starter setup.

Oh, I will be posting a few quads for sale soon. They will be great additions to your bag, be watching out for them!

Love quad flying

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On 4/27/2018 at 5:48 PM, happysuperbutton said:

Fwiw,

 

That looks so cheaply done even their own RX design looks better.

 

And this one as a visual wing still doesn't even come close to what Bazzer has been putting out recently with his hand-crafted Eyes series with the "bloodshot" fx!

 

If you're ever considering adding an Eyes to your bag, there's only one place to go for the dollar you put down.

Down unda.

 

Bazzer's work is so significant the kite feels and flies so much better than the my 1.5b, would only imagine the B-pro just as refined. I love the way the Phoenix flies I try to fly it all the time even when I know the Ash will be overpowered going beyond the recommended wind range. But it's so worth it, what a difference from my 1.5b! (Bad comparison since my 1.5b is mv and Bazzer's kite is Ash, but when flown at optimal wind speeds for each respective kite, I find the difference noticeable)

Of course you realize that is just the printed poly for the sail and no finishing whatsoever has been done yet, right? No leading edge sleeve, no mesh, no edge binding, no reinforcements, etc. It's just the material and the ink so far.

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IMHO just because the eyes are not copyrighted doesn't make printing a sail with them OK to do. Rev proudly called the eyes a masterpiece and I feel that if you are going to call something artwork copying it with some small changes doesn't honor the artist and seems slimy to me.

Yes, the eyes are cool, but they are a Bazzer creation and known that way. I would have had no problem if rev had come out with a whole line of printed sails with new eyes artwork.

I am thankful for the revs o have and the fun that they have provided me. However, I don't like some of what I have been hearing of how they have treated some of thier partners- and that will be considered as I make future kiting purchases.

Sent from my [device_name] using http://KiteLife mobile app

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They might need to put a patch on one eye.. It seems their new ideas are the ones that others have had..

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I am now officially blocked from Revolution's Facebook page, and all my posts relating INTIMATE knowledge of the Bazzer Eyes history have been deleted from the discussion there.

Short and sweet - I was right alongside Bazzer (as was all of iQuad) at the time he created the very first Eyes kites, I owned two of the original four (Rev I size), received directly from Bazzer in July of 2006, two were also made in orange for Ben D'Antonio at the time.

Those four kites predate the entire masterpiece idea, and actually sparked Ben to create the program so other renowned kite artists could participate as well... First official branded "masterpiece" was made by Ron Gibian ("Archi-Rhythm" as I recall), the first of the 1.5 series, and I seem to recall they were shortly followed by Bazzer's licensed 1.5 reproductions of his Eyes motif.

==

Some historical reference here:

Raffled off on KiteLife in 2009:
https://kitelife.com/forum/topic/3210-raffle-original-masterpiece-prototype-revs-sold-out/

Changing hands again in 2017:
https://kitelife.com/forum/topic/7746-original-ninja-eyes-rev1-set-by-bazzer/

 

Moral of the story, Ben had a No Fear T-shirt with some eyes on it that may or may not have been the original inspiration, but other than them being EYES, there is very little aesthetic similarity - the original Eyes art was created exclusively by Bazzer, period, me and several others were very close to the process and discussion while it happened.

==

All things aside, the Hadzicki wing design is now public domain (like the airplane, zipper or elevators) and it will serve all companies, designers and artists well to create NEW aesthetics, leave the old behind, avoid contention and invent new horizons.

Moving forward and onward!

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JB you are right, forward and onward but is a shame when you see a company with so much love in the past become...."something" i think nobody is speaking about a real copyright and more about the low morality to use something so close in design and put it on your name.    

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Indeed.

I think the only worthy debate is “backward and argue about it” or “forward and evolve”... One toe in the past, or looking to the horizon. :)

Damned shame Rev doesn’t see that, I think the entire community would support an effort on their part to be exclusively forward moving - Club 38 and the Reflex line was a fair start, but this backward moving stuff has me truly amazed and disappointed.

It is quite telling that Polo, Bazzer, the Shooks and myself have ALL officially parted ways with Revolution now, all for very similar core reasons (with different details). Why would so many of the big players be stepping away, food for thought.

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More food for thought, the aforementioned “players” are all in support of free market, letting “god and skill” sort them out amongst the end user... Whereas the brand in question still shouts “ours is the only way”, in one way or another.

In their shoes, I wouldn’t be doing battle, I’d be taking notes from all the evolutionary process (both from makers and pilots) and using it to grow - but for that, you actually have to be fully aware of and empathic to the community at large.

It is a different perspective when your world revolves only around customer calls, emails and an occasional presence on learn to fly fields at events - a lot was lost for them when Ben left, as he was their “boots on the ground”, bringing real data and feedback from the actual community.

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Even when they say “Rev family”, it’s actually a limited permutation of the QUAD FAMILY built during iQuad’s prolific travels, education and activity worldwide... We are all kiteflyers, and won’t be sorted by brand.

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. . . . . I want to ride my bicycle, I want to ride it when I like . . . . . 

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for sure JB they do not realize what they do years ago with "the family" may be done today by other player with more wisdom and more practical game.   

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Rev is taking just as many other firms have before them.  Nothing wrong with "business is business!" if you can get away with it.

Bazzer's Dragon kite masterpiece artwork was found at Michael's craft store, it's being public domaine has nothing to do with his talent necessary to bring that art to alive on a kite sail.

Draw a diagonal line thru the rectangle of a b-series panel, wow does that look like a Phoenix now, or what!

Shook's mesh design came from a single lined delta weave kite, since evolved thru input from his consumers,....  run a strip here, reinforce that patch, change this slightly too.

Innovation comes from listening and questioning what is discussed w/o bias. Tom Edison failed hundreds of times before inventing the light bulb but he kept at his objective until successful.

Occasionally two folks come up with a similar design and haven't ever heard, met or seen each other before.  Ashworth's london bridge kite and Andy Wadley's Airbow design.

Lots of wheels have been invented thru-out history, round ones still work the best.

The justification I heard from folks this wkend in Ocean City buying a printed eyes kite was "for protection of their investment".  They can beat the printed kite and save the great original Eyes for only the most special of occasions.

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Draw a diagonal on a "B" and you would get 8 panels not 2 as in the Phoenix. Remember the first set? They had Rev logos on them and nothing back from Rev.

Printing? Isn't the act of printing taking art and "copying"it? Gee, why aren't there 8 Mona Lisa's hanging in museums? 

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why prints ? is cheap, is fast, is making money base on original design. all the wrong reasons for "family"

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When you have as tight knit a community as kiting is, “business is business” may still be true but it also comes with deeper ramifications.

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4 hours ago, Paul LaMasters said:

The justification I heard from folks this wkend in Ocean City buying a printed eyes kite was "for protection of their investment".  They can beat the printed kite and save the great original Eyes for only the most special of occasions.

I my not-so-humble opinion; If you ain't gonna fly it don't buy it. Investing your money in kites, unless you buy Ben's (Franklin) original, is a waste of time. There are better mediums for capital investment.

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My favorite kites have been flown to rags, no longer flyable, embedded with memories and stains, now living on the wall.

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 justification
 
A way to square it with their conscience maybe?

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Let's break that word down..

Justification = just if I can imagine this isn't wrong..

Short version is something doesn't have to be wrong to be unethical.. I support those I believe in. I don't support those I don't.

 

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My sister lived in China for a few years. While there she sent me a 2' x 3'  replica of a Military Macaw. When you get about  6 inches away you can see that it is not a painting. Its hand sewn with silk thread. Most amazing piece of art I have ever had. The detail is beyond belief. The skill and patience to create it is pretty astounding. IMG_20180503_171233955_LL.jpg My real African Grey Parrot friend Bird. Met him before he was fully feathered and if I tried to call him anything else he'd get pissed. Freaky, freaky smart critter.IMG_20180325_181939277.jpgIf I were to acquire the Mona Lisa I'd sell it asap mainly for the money but also cause I think it's kinda ugly. Macaw will hang on my wall till I'm gone.It's beautiful. My Widow Maker Pro is 1 of 5 white sails created by Steve Tapp. Kite will never be created again and I always get a little nervous when flying it. I believe he made it to fly and not be a wall hanger. So I fly the hell out of it. Would be nice if Sky Burner was making the WMP again. Then the White Widow might be treated a little more gently. Naw who am I trying to BS. Kites awesome and I'm going keep flying the hell out of it. It's why Sky Burner made it. If I got a Bazzer I'd do the same.But that's me. Don't think most cheaper replicas of anything quite measure up to the real deal but people buy them for a number of reasons. Personally if I get Bazzer eyes I'll contact Bazzer. Seems that in the quest for dollars a lot of companies ignore the nickles at there peril. From what I've read on the forums in the last 6 months I have no intention of buying a new Rev ever. Well ok maybe if it's a fantastic deal cause I'm a cheap bastard. I'd rather buy the OSK Freilein  on the cheaper side and buy from builders that worry about their nickels. I like it that JB, Lam, Paul De Bakker and Jon T,  talk to me like I'm a dollar not the penny I am.I think it's because they love sharing their craft far more then doing their necessary business. That makes surviving harder then for those more  profit oriented.Been 100% satisfied with my 2 parts purchases from Prism. It was a business transaction though like calling the bank. Buying parts from Wind of Change, Kites and Fun Things, Fun With Wind and Into the Wind I came  away with new knowledge. Talking to OSK they were happy to share knowledge.Looking forward to talking to all of them again. Don't want to have to call  Prism again but I will  and am sure I will be satisfied. Just not as enriched by the experience. Prism has a great business model. When people start researching duels they are usually the first recommended kites. I took RobBs  advice and got the best I could justify at the time because I want to trick not just fly around. So the Jazz, Nexus and Quantum were  not considered. The Hypnotist was definitely in the running. Widow ng was top dog  because I got a great deal,it's a better kite and people said Jon T will take the time to discuss his designs with anyone who minds their manners.(Wolf ng #2) I love this forum. Learned a ton and the shared knowledge and experiences is well worth the small  subscriber fee.  I don't know how to fly a quad  or much about them but I will. When Rev dissed John Barresi and other like minded people from newbies to pros in a round about way they  dissed me too. So Piss on you Revolution Kites. Although if you need a boots on the ground guy to promote your kites across the U.S., get feedback from all kinds of fliers and maybe get some of that foul taste out of a lot of peoples mouths I can do that.  Make me a offer Rev Kites. Worse that could happen is I'll say yes LOL. Hold on worst thing could be JB would then ban me from Kite Life . Naw he's not a Richard Cranium. After all this rambling though probably been better to have just wrote I 2nd Jwharton.

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"I'll get my fix from wherever I can", said the kite junkie. Yup, that be me. If it works for me, then it works for me. 

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I don’t really care what they’re buying long as they’re flying and winning - so many kites end up in the same bag anyway, let god and skill sort ‘em out. :)

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The sad reality is legal remedies are very costly to pursue - there isn't much realistic protection from patent or copyright.  The only effective way to address poor form is to educate consumers and let them "vote with their feet".  Really appreciate everyone surfacing things like this and making the community aware of the situation.  I agree with the comments about letting go of the past, but I'd also encourage making sure we keep the community aware of what is going on so consumers can make informed choices.

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