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Huskies

New Flyer Rev EXP questions

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Hey guys,

Let me start by saying your resources here are amazing.  So I am a single line flyer at the beach.  Basically I tie a big kite to the bed of my truck so I can see where I am when boogie boarding in the Gulf.  I was looking for new single line kites online and the next thing I know there is a Revolution ad on my facebook feed and I'm like what the heck is that and how does that work.  So I buy one.  So cool.  Anyway  I have flown 3 times now, maybe a total of 2hrs with it after the first outing where it just spun right and crashed and had to figure out that bridal was a little off but I have a few questions and what to know what you all think.

I can fly it no problem, I can control it pretty good. reverse launch, hover upright, right and left, inverted for a little while.  I feel like I can make it go where I want.

I am on 65ft lines that came with it and it came with the standard handles with only one knot placement.  I ordered some of JB's pro leaders and will do the snagless conversion.  Good idea right? 

Should I get different length lines? Easier to fly?  I fly at some soccer fields near me.  Its like a park with 8 or 10 soccer fields and a couple baseball fields.  Of course all the fields have light poles around them so the 65' fits well.  I do notice that the one time I flew when the wind was blowing probably 10-12mph with some big gusts (its always choppy) that the kite will pull hard after a spin and catch a gust.  Not as smooth as all the videos ive seen.  Probably me over correcting and adding drive but if I have more brake adjustability from the JB leader this should help Right?  I'm going to use the method of start all the way out and see if I can launch and go from there to adjust.

Im also confused on the kite size.  Is the exp the same size at the 1.5 or B Series or the rx xx they sell now?  Its my understanding the exp is built to take a beating and is maybe a little heavier that some other kites so it doesn't want to fly great in low wind if I get another kite what will the frame from the exp fit?.  Typically we have 4-7 mph wind here inland (im in Houston).  Also should I take out the reflex springs?  are they like training wheels?  seems like some of you old schoolers think they are gimmicky?

Im sure I have more questions but appreciate any advice.  Learning this thing on my own.  Well that not really true, all the reading on here and the videos ive watched I feel like you all and JB are my personal coaches.

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ok let's break the answer in multiple topics.

before to start fly when you connect the lines check the bridle,all different sections to be symmetrical and equals between them. if you see length difference  that means is something wrong and make sure to repair before to fly. check the lines to be equal especially if they are the one sold with the kite, most of the time right out of the package you will find 1-2 inches difference 

Line length: 65 is a good one but most of the flyers use 85 or 120 when they fly together or in team. longer lines give you also a bigger wind window and some more time to avoid a crash. shorter lines 30-35-40 for light wind, urban fly or small spaces. your choice and preference.

JB leaders: yes they will help you to gain more control of the line length and smoother mouvement how long you are in control.

kite size: the confusing is starting when you throw in discussion reflex technologie kites versus old models. EXP is having the same dimensions like 1.5, B and B-Pro and is smaller then all reflex technologie on the market now except new rebranded 1.5 Classic witch is the old 1.5. Yes, is a entry level for taste of fly quads but is breaking on the same way like all others, difference is the starting price because of the sail fabric and number of stitches.

springs: being a beginner is hard to fly in less than 5-10 MPH and springs are adding some weight but also help to recover or a flat launch. if you pass the frustration of low wind test to fly with and without and you will feel the difference yourself. springs are not training wheels at all even if they advertise to be like. they making the sail to have a different profile on low pressure making the kite to act differently.IMO when you have some experience that springs are just dead weight. accumulating experience will not make to much difference if they are or not there but will give you the chance to try more complex maneuvers without to overcontrol

hope this helps

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From what your saying it seem that weight has a lot do flying in light winds.  Is also the sail material and stitching that much of a difference on the 1.5 classic from an exp.  Honestly I was surprised when I got the exp of how light it was compared to my sing line kites and how the lines are so much different than flying on the "ropes" I have for single line.  It made more sense once I set it up and flew as to how its possible to control when my lines are all spun together after a couple 360's.  Slippery stuff

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sport kites use different material for lines and for that they do not mixt good with single lines kites and usually they start to lock at around 10-12 360's 

for low winds will be a good idea to buy a set of 40-50 lbs lines anywhere between 35 to 65 fits. less weight means less drag for the kite. personally i like SkyBond and i hate LPG (Laser Pro Gold)

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Just a small add to Edmond's post - the EXP is the same size as all the older SLE and "B" models, including the "B" pro. I am not sure if it is exactly the same size as the RX, but I do know the XX is bigger (between the Rev 1 and 1.5 size). The 1.5 Classic is just a rebranded "B", but with the Reflex system installed. If I'm not mistaken all their Sport kites have that now.

You can remove the springs. Try it without them, then decide if you want them.

All the old 1/4" frames were interchangeable in that 1.5 size. Do you have one in that size or the bigger size? Pretty sure that Rev has stopped making any 1/4" frames. The good news is that there are plenty of sources for other frames. Unless the bigger rod, your EXP has 3 wrap rods, just labelled differently. Speaking of other rods available - there are SkyShark rods, the rods Andy sells at Ocean Shores kites, and of course any old stock in stores. You can get lost in all the choices, feel free to ask before committing and buying.

Edmond is correct on lines - really only 2 types around for quads right now - LPG (Laser Pro Gold) or SkyBond. Both are made from Spectra fiber, SkyBond has an additional coating. Both are tight, finely woven lines. They play nice together in team flying. Whichever you choose is up to your preference. 120' is the team standard length. If you hope to fly with others, I would get a set. As stated, they open up a huge window to fly in, and give you more time to react to the kite. 30' is a urban, small park, type of length, but it comes with everything happening faster. The kite goes side to side or up and down, in a flash. Your reflexes will be tested. The 65' set you have is an OK learning length and you could cut them down to make a short set as they start to wear out. DO NOT tangle them up with your SLK lines!! 2 very different materials and weaves, the SLK lines will break your quad lines in no time - Spectra and dacron do NOT mix!

Also take some time to equalize the lines. They should be as close to the same length (all 4) as possible. Think car alignment, pulling left or right without you correcting it. Same with the kite, you don't need it steering itself.

JB's leaders and the conversion to no snags are great steps to take. The leaders let you adjust, the conversion takes out an unneeded moving part. Be careful removing the ring, you don't want to ruin the vinyl cap. You can reuse them. Also be aware there is a nasty burr under the cap, where the holes for the ring were punched - it will slice you open!

Short of that - have fun!

 

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Definitely get some 120' lines if you ever plan to fly with others. This is the default length for team flying. The relatively long length allows for more time to react and gives you a large window in which to play. However, it also increases the amount of time you must wait for the kite to react after you give it an input. Any length from 65' to 80' is fine for learning. Just remember that the shorter the line, the faster things happen. If you are having problems longer lines will slow things down to a manageable speed. 

You absolutely MUST replace the factory leaders and begin using additional brake -- let the top lines further out -- to allow the kite to fly to its full potential and maintain control in stronger winds and unexpected gusts. You won't like the feel at first, but you'll get used to it in a few sessions. After that you won't fly without the additional brake ever again. Remember that this kind of kite is about control and not so much speed as I'm sure you've seen in the videos. Zip around all you want for fun, but also practice slow, methodical control. If you master it slow, then you can do it at any speed.

Don't worry about sizes and springs until you can fly for a couple of hours at least without crashing at all, meaning no unintentional contact with the ground or other objects. Be selective about the wind in which you fly. Flying in bad wind when learning will only teach you how frustrating it is to fly in bad wind when you are still learning to control the kite. Check lines for equal length. A difference of more than about 3/8" will begin to give the kite a mind of its own. It will steer you around the sky instead of you doing the steering.

Most of all smile, have fun and don't forget to breathe.

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thanks for all the help guys.  So today I equalized the lines.  no wind here.  One of my top line was about a half to 3/4 inch longer.  i could see the difference right away when i would pull the kite tight to launch position.  It always seemed that my left side was a little slack.  Didn't sit square to my handles at the stake.  Now it does though.  launched up about 10 feet with a step back but with no wind so I just wound my lines up and headed off.  So it was successful that I could equalize.  

Wayne,  Pretty sure the rods i have are 1/4" I think the others you all talk about are 7/16 and they are definitely not even close to a half inch around.  also thanks for the reminder about the burr on the handle.  I have read you post that on here a couple of times.  i don't need any more stitches

Is there a way to tell what kind of line I have by looking at it Spectra or Darcon?  For the price I'm sure they shipped with some low quality line.  I bought it on amazon 185 free shipping.  Whoever made the lines did put a sticker that says 65' 90#  and they did put different color leaders or sleeves what ever they are called so i can differentiate left right and top bottom super easy so someone cared a little

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Lines are LPG, do not tangle with your SLK dacron lines - or POP! Your quad lines will lose that battle!

Lon - I really don't know to be honest. If you are only replacing the LE, I might order a new set of end caps. If switching the whole frame, get all 6. Caps will fit almost everything, just get the ones that will fit your replacement rods.

Hate to say it, but Rev's QC isn't the best on their newer stuff. Bad rods were one of the things that caused people to look at other solutions. IMHO YMMV

PS: not a big fan of those new type fittings. Prefer the caps myself.

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so I think Ill keep flying these 65' lines as i learn more but if i were to buy line is the best bet to buy a roll and make my own lines?  what are the 'Leaders' called (the sleeve on the line) I assume someone sells that too...and watching the line management video it seems like you need some tool to get the line through it.  I don't need someone to cut them for me, I can figure that out and probably save some money that way....or is buying some line someone else supposedly made to length better?

wayne,  my SLK "rope" isn't getting near this slippery stuff.....one of my ah-ha moments was when i saw the line for these quads....am i fishing or flying....get it up in the air and spin it and you still have control.....who figured that out?

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These questions are somewhat of a topic hijack, so a forum moderator could probably split them out into it's own discussion

2 hours ago, Lon said:

These replacement rods you are referring to from Andy or the SkyShark rods, are they the size for the newer rev's where the end pieces fit inside of the rod vs most others I have seen that are like a cap piece that fits over the rod?  Not sure if those are called nocks or not?

Nocks are used on some kites, they look much like the nock on an arrow. They have a U-shaped edge that a tight cord is placed inside. When placed under tension the cord can slip back out of the nock to release the spar.

These kites use an end cap.  The cord is threaded through the cap and left in place indefinitely. The end cap is slipped on or off the spar when you set up or break down the kite.

More on the rods below...

2 hours ago, Lon said:

I was flying in some unruly wind this morning and along with me being very new to quads, I contacted the ground several times.  Not real hard, but not a kiss either.  I noticed when putting the kite away that one of the vertical rods appears to have a small split towards the bottom of the kite.  But it does not appear to be split at the very bottom.  Does one want to extend the life of the rod by wrapping a small amount of packing tape around the split.  I am sure you would not want to use much because of weight.  I need to learn about repairs also!

A split spar is broken, even if it hasn't completely failed. You can tape it, epoxy it, or otherwise try to get some more life out of it, but that is playing with fire.  Sometime soon you'll hit a gust or a crash and the spar will fail completely.  That will probably mean a sharp edge, and it can mean the broken spar will rip through the fabric.  Better to replace the spar now rather than wait for a catastrophic failure that risks even more damage.

The good news is you don't need to ship away for them. A store called A Wind of Change moved from Las Vegas to SLC a few years ago. Although they transitioned the business from a brick-and-mortar shop to an online shop, they have a bunch of good stuff in stock at their home. Email or call, explain what you're interested in buying, that you live in Salt Lake, and that you'd like to look at the parts if they can arrange a time.  Most likely either Kent or Daelyn will arrange for a visit if you know what you're planning on buying. They're located in North Salt Lake by the I-215 curve.

I'm sure they have the official revolution rods as well as SkyShark rods in stock.  They could show you the difference (and similarities), and sell you whatever parts you need for your kite bag.  If you don't have one, I'm sure they could sell you a quality kite bag, too. ;-)

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frob, you are correct and I will try and refrain in the future as it is not really right to do that.

Huskies, my apologies!!

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LOL!!! That is why it was developed in the first place. The tight weave and the make up (material) of the line, all contribute!

 That is what it is called - sleeving. Many make sets with or without it, your choice. Buy a roll and make 2 sets for the price of one. But don't forget winders and sleeving when you buy. Then it is just time involved. Oh that tool is a sleever. Some take the high ""E" string from a guitar and fold it in half. Others use floral wire. Anything thin works, but take your time and thread through cleanly.

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On 10/17/2019 at 9:28 AM, Wayne Dowler said:

I am not sure if it is exactly the same size as the RX, but I do know the XX is bigger

Coincidentally, I just got some info that might help.  Rev is offering a free travel frame with any kite.  Since not all Revs use the same spars nowadays, I asked which spars came with that travel frame.  Here's a quote from the answer: "The Standard Travel Frame... fits Rev 1.5 sizes, EXP, Rev 1.5, 1.5 Classic, NYM, B series, and Reflex RX"

Sounds like the RX is in fact the standard 1.5 size.  It doesn't explicitly mention the "Reflex EXP" but I would guess it's also 1.5-sized.

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17 hours ago, Huskies said:

so I think Ill keep flying these 65' lines as i learn more but if i were to buy line is the best bet to buy a roll and make my own lines?  what are the 'Leaders' called (the sleeve on the line) I assume someone sells that too...and watching the line management video it seems like you need some tool to get the line through it.  I don't need someone to cut them for me, I can figure that out and probably save some money that way....or is buying some line someone else supposedly made to length better?

wayne,  my SLK "rope" isn't getting near this slippery stuff.....one of my ah-ha moments was when i saw the line for these quads....am i fishing or flying....get it up in the air and spin it and you still have control.....who figured that out?

I don't know if you checked the prices of spectra line, but buying bulk and making your own line sets will save you nearly 50% of the cost. Buying a finished set costs roughly $1/foot. If you have some dead time to kill it's worth the effort to make your own. Sleeving is an option that can be used at either or both ends, and it does reduce wear on the kite bridle and handle leaders. Do not buy the spectra line used for fishing. It has a different weave and binds much more easily. There is one brand out there that some have said works, but I have not tried it. The ones I did try were horrid. Most kite shops, both online and brick and mortar, carry bulk spectra in either Laser Pro Gold or Shanti Skybond, or can order it for you.

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56 minutes ago, makatakam said:

Do not buy the spectra line used for fishing. It has a different weave and binds much more easily. There is one brand out there that some have said works, but I have not tried it. The ones I did try were horrid.

I've used 50# PowerPro Super 8 Slick for 13' to 120' line sets. At $30 for 300 yards, it was a cheap way to try different line lengths. At 50#, I've only used them in light wind situations. 

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Many things are made from it.  Rope, kite line, fishing line, certain medical fibers, chemically-resistant wire wraps, and plenty of other uses. All of them are made from polyethylene, but that's about where the similarity stops; much like fiberglass insulation and fiberglass telecommunications line and fiberglass fishing rods are all made from fiberglass but are not interchangeable. 

There are differences in how the fibers are manufactured, gel spun versus dry spun versus extruded. There are differences in the lengths of the fibers, there are differences in other materials mixed into the braid, there are differences on the count of strands, there are differences in the weave of the strands, and there are differences in the coatings.

Several factors matter for kites.  There is stretch under tension (kite lines usually have less, the stretch is necessary to prevent the line from snapping when a fish strikes), there is creep over time (fishing line doesn't typically care about it), and there is slipperiness over itself (only measured for ropes and kite lines, not fishing line).

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Lon,

Don't worry about hijacking....just send me some wind and we will be even.  No wind in Houston lately....guess i have to drive down to the coast.....Or I was thinking about buying 4 of those big fans from Sam's club and setting them to high, angle two up and two down, getting some 20' lines and going for it.   That might be a cool video JB could make...

For you pros.

Another question....My bottom lines seem super slack.  Lines are about 1/2" shorter on the bottom than top.  I know someone said make sure all lines are same length but Im waiting on JB leaders...Shipped yesterday....With the handles that come without adjustment from REV is that just a function of 'full drive" to get new flyers in the air....Seems like a detriment to me flying in low wind?

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51 minutes ago, Huskies said:

is that just a function of 'full drive" to get new flyers in the air.

Yes, it does help get the kites up quickly. Exactly how intentional it is, or if it was originally a quirk that they merely left in place after finding the usefulness, is sometimes debated.

If your goal is selling kites, if your goal is to get beginners to get a kite to launch without much skill, then it is effective.  If you're going to sell them to people who won't have experienced guides and will have to struggle with it on their own, it removes one potential problem of ensuring the kite has sufficient pitch.

53 minutes ago, Huskies said:

Seems like a detriment to me flying in low wind?

Low wind takes experience and skill.  You could probably find a good balance point on the short leaders if someone needed to, it just wouldn't be a comfortable grip.  Shorter lines, 30 foot, 20, foot, or even indoor lengths are probably more important.

Consider that even with well-adjusted lines and leaders it can take many hours (across multiple flying days) before beginners can fly in very light winds. I don't know if they could even be called beginners any more at that point.  

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2 hours ago, Huskies said:

Don't worry about hijacking....just send me some wind and we will be even.  No wind in Houston lately....guess i have to drive down to the coast.....Or I was thinking about buying 4 of those big fans from Sam's club and setting them to high, angle two up and two down, getting some 20' lines and going for it.

Trust me, if I had any I could send, I would!!

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Equalize from a stake, not the kite. Yes, all 4 should be as close as possible to the same length. The leaders don't count in "equalizing", except as a quick fix in the field. I usually equalize with my handles off, but some leave them on. Never trust what you see setting up - use a stake instead.

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More questions for you all,

I uploaded some pictures I think...on the bottom edge how much slack should there be in the bungee?  These pictures if you can see them are parked inverted maybe 4mph wind at the ground..and the other is flying (springs out)...it just seems like the spar sticks way out...not sure if that is normal or not..

I did take out the springs today and flew about half the time....Seemed to slow the kite some but without my new leaders yet, these rev handles are just basically all throttle to me...maybe its just me...too much input for a newbie flying but i want to go slow and in control..just struggling with that when the wind gusts....Today the weather app said 10mph winds but I'm sure that was gusts....probably 2-14 and anywhere in between...Its like the kite wants to jump in gear when I catch a gust any ideas or comments?

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A little loose. Make sure the top is tight. Then gently pull the bottom til there are no more wrinkles. Don't pull so tight as to add any vertical wrinkles. Smooth is what you want. And don't pull so hard the top starts sticking up over the LE.

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Be careful of over tightening, too. All sails will stretch over time, tension from the air does that no matter what. Too much tension will accelerate the stretching and shorten the useful life. 

Some kites come with stretch strip built in, some people add them to Rev kites, they can help slow down the inevitable. 

You want the forces of the captured air for flying. Too loose and some of the force is spent tensioning the sail and keeping shape. Tight makes the kite absorb less of the force but can shorten the life span. Aim for the minimum tension that removes the slack but does not stretch it. 

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