Mike Gillard (RIP)
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Posts posted by Mike Gillard (RIP)
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OK, you asked for it, or maybe you didn’t. One night on the #kites chat room, the topic of literacy came up. "Why Johnny Can’t Read", and all that. I proposed that KiteLife had the most intelligent readership of any kiting publication, and the naysayers in the group challenged me to prove it!
Here is your chance to prove me right, as well as provide our readers with some much-needed stimulus.
Eligible entries will be thrown into a pot, and winners will be selected. Prizes include a couple of cool kites, lines, parts bags, KiteLife hats, and who knows what else!
There are two different divisions - one for Haiku, one for Limericks. Ladies and gentlemen, start your keyboards!
K
2
Fly into Y
with Kitelife.com’s Haiku -- Limerick Challenge
Traditional HAIKU* is an ancient form of Japanese poetry that captures a moment in nature. It consists of 3 non-rhyming lines and a total of 17 syllables:
line 1 -- 5 syllables
line 2 -- 7 syllables
line 3 -- 5 syllables
For example:
Haiku by Jason Litchford
Windchimes taunt at me
Flags and trees droop as I pass
I am wind's black hole
Kitelife invites you to compose a kite poem using a looser form of Haiku (actually called SENRYU), which follows the 5-7-5 structure but breaks from traditional rules...
- It doesn’t necessarily refer to a season or capture a moment in nature.
- It deals with common or humorous themes
*For an in-depth explanation and background Haiku, check out: http://www.ahapoetry.com/haiku.htm
A A LIMERICK is a humorous or nonsense poem with a regular rhythm and rhyming pattern:
line 1 -- 7 to 9 beats with 3 stresses
line 2 -- 7 to 9 beats with 3 stresses
line 3 -- 4 to 6 beats with 2 stresses
line 4 -- 4 to 6 beats with 2 stresses
line 5 -- 7 to 9 beats with 3 stresses
For example:
By Mike Dooley
There was an old kiter named Corey,
Who was long in both tooth, and in story.
He regaled the crowd in a voice much too loud
And chased after dames, statutory.
Official Rules: No limit on number of entries per person. All entries must be mailed and be received by December 22, 1999. Provide your name and snail mail address, please. I know this is tough, but all entries must be suitable for a general audience. For that reason, we recommend against using the word "Nantucket" in your limerick ;-). Or, you can send naughty ones, but they will be just for the staff's enjoyment ;-)
Prizes will be awarded by random drawing from entries meeting the requirements, and will be mailed out by January 15, 2000.
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Reports from two different veteran perspectives at the 1999 European Championship in Fort Mahon, France, courtesy of Wilifred Eckholt and Hans Jansen op de Haar.
Report from Wilifred Ekholt
From the 3rd to the 5th of October the European Championship took place in Fort Mahon. Fort Mahon is a little town about 20 kilometres from Berck sur Mer. Winds were very strong throughout the three days, and on Saturday all competitions were cancelled. Too much wind!
The competitions were flown on Sunday, instead. The organizer opened three fields for flying and everything went well. In some competitions only the ballet was flown and in others, just the compulsory figures.
In Team Dual-line competition, Lungta (France) won first place while Air de Rien (France) and Garuda (Germany) placed second and third respectively. I don't understand why Carl and James haven't formed a new Airkraft team; it wouldn't matter if it was comprised of three flyers, in my opinion.
There were also some really surprising results. In the Individual Quad-line competition, Guido Maiocchi (Italy) came out ahead of James Robertshaw (Great Britain) and Mark Lummas (Great Britain). The second surprise was when Bi Dance (Skydance) topped Evolver (the Robertshaw brothers) and Rainbow from Germany in Quad-line Pairs. In the Dual-line Pairs, the result was reversed: Evolver garnered first place, ahead of Bi Dance and Antinea.
In the big fight for top spot in the Dual-line competition there was a little scandal between Great Britain and France. Five flyers protested the judging of Carl Robertshaw. After a discussion between the flyers, the controversial figure was taken out of the judging. As a result, it was no longer possible for Frenchman Patrick Somelet to finish in the top three. Carl Robertshaw claimed the title of the European champion, with second and third place awards going to Christophe Cardon (France) and Daniel Wolfinger (Switzerland). During the presentation ceremony, Patrick Somelet displayed what many spectators agreed was very unsportsmanlike behavior when he stepped in front of Carl Robertshaw, to receive the accolades he felt he deserved.
On a more honorable note, eighteen year old Martin Klein of Germany earned a surprising and commendable sixth place finish with his wildcard entry!
(Ed. "Wildcards" are passes distributed by S.T.A.C.K. to those among the top 15 fliers who did not otherwise qualify by being '98 champs, or STACK national champs)
Sunday afternoon also featured a trick fly competition, combined with a single-line competition, which offered a purse of 10,000 French francs. The trick fly was set up so that two fliers flew against each other simultaneously, adjudicated by a panel of three.
Unfortunately, there were very few spectators because the date and location of this event were known only to insiders. A good competition nevertheless, and hopefully next time there will be more pre-event promotion and advertising.
Wilifred Eckholt
Eurocup From the Balcony
Report from Hans Jansen op de Haar
Fort Mahon is a small, compact seaside town in the north of France, on the Channel coast, less than 100 km south of Calais, about 30 km north of Dieppe. It has a wide beach, half the time. I watched the Euro cup form beach, boulevard and balcony.
It wasn't the best of weekends for any -kite- event. The weather was hesitating between horrible and workable and not everything else was working out fine either. About 90 competitors would compete in two times five events, two lines individual, pair and teams, four lines individual and pairs, all both ballet and precision. Organisation was split, SIEC, the STACK international executive committee, was responsible for the actual competition, while the FFVL, the French federation of free flight, took care of field, equipment, line judges, (free) lodging, (free) meals, in short everything else. (the FFVL is a government recognised federation which deals with kite flying, parapente and delta flying in France, and doubles as STACK France. It also organised "Guadeloupe" and the World Cup in Dieppe. For two well known people, Alain Gilbert and Jean-Louis Ducret, it was the last event they organised ) All foreign competitors and the judges were lodged in a Disney like holiday village in the dunes between Fort Mahon and Quend plage.
Thursday was 'arrival' day, most competitors and officials (and interested bystanders) were welcomed in an office on the boulevard. Of course there was also the official opening, in the evening, in a big multipurpose hall, with the playing of the national hymns, speeches and the introduction of all who made it possible.
Friday morning, after the pilots meeting and a little pause the competition started with two lines team ballet. The precision field could not be used yet, since flood left a deeper than normal trench with water that first had to be filled. Wind was close to the 49 km/h maximum, and most teams struggled to complete their routines without mistakes. The French champions Overdrive lost points this way especially with a crash near the end of the routine. With music specially composed the routine looks seriously good, if completed (I watched them at the French championships). Lung Ta made no big mistakes, Air de Rien, who practice in Le Havre at high ground were very much used to this type of weather did neither. Garuda is not, but they flew their routine solidly. On the precision field the four lines individual competition had finally started, but the wind increased even more, and competition had to be stopped.
Saturday morning the weather showed no improvement over Friday afternoon, on the contrary. And the forecasts were not too good either. The Chief judge, Guillemette Chavant, one of the two STACK international head judges, had to leave very early. Replacing chief judge Helmut Georgi (his third job) postponed twice, and decided at noon competition would not go on for the rest of the day. Although supported by forecasts, deciding that long in advance is tricky in coastal regions. It was not very understandable for the public (who, thanks to the weather forecast, did not show up in really large numbers) that there was no competition in the afternoon. There was a wide beach, and after around half past one wind was down to about 35 km/h...Some people even flew kites. Some of the competitors were flying too, indoors, in the multipurpose hall, watched by fellow competitors and some public. Luckily, for all competitors, judges, officials and guests, the evening activity was weather-independent. In the swimming center in the holiday village a seriously big cold buffet was organised, as has become a well appreciated tradition at the bigger events. SIEC announced the selection procedure for Malaysia, and a Finnish group the next Euro cup in Finland. For me (and most others) meeting friends was the main activity that evening.
Sunday started as a difficult day for the organisers. Because as much of competition should be run as possible, the chief judge had asked to lay out three fields on the beach. Ballet field would be for pairs, both two lines and four lines, precision field for individual precision, for two lines and four lines too. This setup made it difficult though to see all competition! It also meant only three judges per field. Pair ballet was very interesting since the two English pairs (Evolver and Bi Dance) were competing against each other on two as well as four lines. Evolver lost first place in four lines because of small glitches and minor misunderstandings in a routine good enough to make even the smallest mistake stand out. Bi Dance did not make it to first place in the two lines not because their routine, in Skydance style of course, was not good, but the Evolver routine was a bit more daring and 'technical'. French pairs did not do bad at all, somewhat more relaxed flying from Pacavius and maybe a bit more concentrated flying from Pair de Rien would have them all closer to Bi Dance. It was impossible for me to see much of the precision flying. Guido told me just after the competition he was hoping to beat Carl one day not knowing he already had. He still has to watch the Robertshaws, though! French champion Jean Apostolides ended at a disappointing eighth' place, his ballet might have helped him to gain some places, but there was no time for that. Despite the three fields Carl Robertshaw managed to perform in four competitions (as individual and as 'half Evolver') ending individual two lines as Euro-cup holder! At one o'clock -half- the Euro cup was finished. Some judges, including the chief judge, had to catch a train or plane. And so even debriefing was waved away.
The competitors had to wait for the prize giving till about four. With the public (it had become a rather sunny afternoon) they could watch the competition for the Picardie cup, a single line competition combined with a two lines trick one, with a first price of 10.000 Ffr.
This was the first big sport kiting event I have watched as a "tourist" in twelve years. I had a kite and a notepad with me, but with good friends around it was not too hard getting used to. I hope the organisers in Finland will manage to have the next Euro Cup there, and can welcome competitors from all over Europe.
Hans Jansen op de Haar
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A nice set of photos by Ludovico Bertozzi, of the kites of Settimo Cielo Aquilonisti
Some Buggy Pics from NJ by Pete Hugger
Left: Gene's Celica | Center: Peter Jr | Right: Izzat me?
Left: Pete Jr. | Center: Wildwood | Right: Bernd
Left: Dave | Center: Dodd | Right: Beach Mine
Left: Jean | Center: Ray | Right: Patty
Left: Leslie | Center: Go Girl! | Right Peter
Tandem
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World Cup X Cancelled
From the WC Committee Chairman:
"It is with a great deal of disappointment that I officially announce the cancellation of World Cup X for the year 1999.
Our friends and event sponsors in Colombia did a wonderful job in preparing for everyone and had many great plans for the celebration of the tenth annual World Cup of Sport Kiting. However, as the date grew closer it became obvious that it would be a great party with only a few competitors. We found ourselves with only a few individuals and fewer teams willing to travel to Colombia. The reasons were many, some very sincere, but mostly there was an underlying concern for safety, even though our hosts have run a number of large festivals in the past, with no problem, it became an insurmountable obstacle.
To the Colombians I offer my deepest apologies for the cancellation and my sincerest thanks for all of the hard work and time put into the effort.
To the rest of the sport kite world, I think we missed a heck of a party and hopefully we can catch this ride again next year.
Sincerely, Dan Buxton World Cup Committee Chair"
World Sport Kite Championships Announced!
From the Organizing Committee:
"AJSKA * AKA * STACK
ALL JAPAN SPORT KITE ASSOCIATION AMERICAN KITEFLIERS ASSOCIATION SPORT TEAM AND COMPETITIVE KITING
WORLD SPORT KITE CHAMPIONSHIP LANGKAWI, MALAYSIA FEB. 4-11 2000
The three world governing bodies of Sport Kiting, AJSKA, AKA and STACK are proud to announce their first ever fully co-organised and endorsed event, the first World Sport Kite Championships, held in conjunction with the Langkawi Kite Festival, Malaysia.
For the first time ever at a world sport kite event all the existing disciplines of sport kite competition will be included : Team Dual Line, Pair Dual Line, Individual Dual Line, Individual Multi Line, also possibly Pair Multi Line and Team Multi Line. Up to five competitors per governing body per discipline could make the trip to the idyllic island of Langkawi, over a hundred of the world's greatest sport kite fliers together in one place at one time for the first time.
Representatives from the three organisations have been in discussion since early 1999. It later emerged that the Malaysian organising committee were also interested in staging a world sport kite competition as part of the Langkawi International Kite Festival. A shared desire to establish a World Sport Kite Championship worthy of the name enabled rapid discussions with the result that agreement was swiftly reached and planning is already well under way. If all goes well, the location, festival and the competition itself will make this an incredible spectacle, a fantastic media opportunity and a worldwide advertisement for sport kiting.
The organisers are proposing a fantastic package to competitors and officials which includes heavily subsidised air ticket to Langkawi via Kuala Lumpur, where all the international parties will join the same onward flight for a "grand entrance" to the island. All food / accommodation will be provided for the duration of the stay and there is an organised r'n'r day away trip on the final day before leaving for home. The organisers will provide fitting trophies for 1st, 2nd and 3rd place overall in each discipline.
Ongoing discussions between AJSKA, AKA and STACK will be between a specially established committee of six, two from each organisation. They have already agreed a desire to have a regular competition, perhaps on a bi-annual basis given the complex level of organisation and substantial sponsorship support needed. The six are : Masanobu Komuro, Yutaka Fukuda (AJSKA), Richard Dermer, David Gomberg (AKA) and Helmut Georgi, Jeremy Boyce (STACK)."
Note: KiteLife will have analysis of these two announcements in the next issue.
Circus Folds the Big Top
Captain Eddie's Flying Circus ended their seven year run as a competitive team with a pair of 3rd places at the AKA Nationals.
Members of the team have found it impossible to meet the time requirements to mount a competitive effort, but will continue to do shows at balloon fests, kite festivals, and other venues.
1999-2000 WORLD KITE MUSEUM & HALL OF FAME
Calendar of Events and Upcoming Workshops
Workshop with Elain Genser
November 13 & 14, 1999 Elain Genser, former art teacher and now a kite nut, will be instructing this workshop. Genser will teach the student how to print on ripstop nylon, transfer a photo or drawing onto silk screen then print it on ripstop. Personalize your kites, your T-shirt, your note cards, etc. Anything that can be photocopied into black and white can be used. In this workshop, the student will be working with a small, easily handled printing unit that will transfer your image to a screen, and then be ready to print. Several colors can be used at the same time. Students will make about a dozen small sled pocket kites that can be used as gifts, or souvenirs.......excellent as Christmas gifts. Students are invited to bring a variety of images so that a suitable printing choice can be made. For more details and registration call The World Kite Museum or E-mail the Museum at jkite@willapabay.org Sign up early for this super fun class; REMEMBER Christmas is just around the corner.
Workshop with David Butler & Tom Tinney
December 4 & 5, 1999 David Butler, Origami Specialist & Tom Tinney Miniature Kite Expert have teamed together to give students a chance to make a miniature kite for yourself or a friend, then make a unique origami box to hold it. For more details and registration call The World Kite Museum or E-mail the Museum at jkite@willapabay.org. Sign up early for these super fun classes; REMEMBER Christmas is just around the corner.
BLACK TIE ONLY
Millennium Party for the Quintet Kite December 31, 1999 Who will win The Last Great Kite Raffle of the Millenium? The Museum Board of Directors plans an early evening champagne and nibbles event for Museum members. The highlight will be the raffle drawing for the exquisite cellular Quintet kite designed by Jan Pit and made and donated by Til Krapp. Everyone must wear a black tie! Any kind of black tie! (Check Museum Membership page for how to be included)
Workshop with Barry Crites
February 12 & 13, 2000 Workshop with Debra Cooley April 22 & 23, 2000 Workshop with Georgean Curran June 17 & 18, 2000
For more details and registration call The World Kite Museum (360) 642-4020 or E-mail the museum at jkite@willapabay.org
Grand Haven 2000
The Great Lakes Kite Festival will be held May 19, 20, and 21 in the year 2000 in Grand Haven, MI. All the details are not yet in place, but we will have:
-Friday night indoor fly-Saturday Night Fly-Rokkaku battle with the winner's name put on the Famous Tanis Dragon Trophy-Lots more single line space-Manufacturers' Demo fields-And, of course, lots more fun stuff!For more info, contact steve@mackinawkiteco.com
See you there.
Desert Kite Festival
Greetings from India.
The Desert Kite Festival is held every January in Jodhpur and Jaipur to celebrate Makar Sankranti – the Festival of Kites. In the year 2000 the Festival enters its fourth year and we are very happy to announce the Millennium Cup of Fighter Kites to be held during the Festival from the 9th to the 14th of January.
Discounted airfares and lodging will make it possible for you to travel with family and friends to India. We are also looking into the possibility of 1 free ticket on Air India for a group of 5.
Extend your Millennium celebrations and perhaps even take home the Millennium Cup. A golden opportunity to participate in the joy of Makar Sankranti, one of the oldest festivals of India – a million kites engaged in tangles literally cover the sky. Your wildest kite fantasy will not prepare you for this incredible sight. Kite madness, or kite heaven – decide for yourself!
Tangle with the best from the East and the West. The best fighter kite fliers from India will be itching to have a go; members of international fighter kite clubs will be there to test their kite skills. We shall also have a Creative Kite Design competition for both static and fighter kites, and prizes for skill in Display Flying.
We expect the participation of kite fliers from USA, UK, Europe, Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, Singapore and Australia. We welcome all kinds of kites – fighters, traction, static, inflatables, miniatures… The Polo Ground where we fly is big enough!
This is a great opportunity to discover India at her best. Rajasthan is one of the most exciting provinces of India – the weather’s great, the food is terrific, the people are friendly and sightseeing takes on a different dimension when you’re travelling with kite friends.
The Registration fee is US$ 250 per person - this gets you full hospitality (hotel accommodation, meals and local transportation) from 09 to 14 Jan. Of course, we will have you met on arrival into India and facilitate your onward journey to Jodhpur.
The Entry form, the special airfares on Air India, and details of past festivals are available on our website http://www.nomad-travels.com
We look forward to having you fly with us.
Good Winds !
Ajay Prakash
Nomad Travels
Sharda, "A " Road, Churchgate,
Mumbai 400 020. India
Tel : + 91 22 202 1503/1549
Fax : + 91 22 204 5396
e mail : nomad.travels@aworld.net
web : http://www.nomad-travels.com
Festival Programme
09 Jan/Sun: All participants will arrive JODHPUR by train from Delhi at 7.55 am, (or fly in 8th Jan afternoon). Transfer to hotel. Inauguration of The Festival - 11 am at the Polo Grounds followed by Display Flying and the first round of the Millennium Cup of Fighter Kites. Lunch at the venue. Welcome dinner with Mah. Gaj Singh of Jodhpur at his royal residence, the magnificent Umaid Bhawan Palace.
10 Jan/Mon: The Festival continues at the Polo Grounds. Folk musicians, acrobats, artists' and artisans' stalls ring the flying field - creating the ambience of a traditional "mela" or fair. Non-fliers could use the day to discover the city and the imposing Mehrangarh fort or make a trip to the ancient temple complex at Osian, 60 km away. See the sunset over the dunes at Osian and drive back for dinner and folk entertainment at the charming Balsamand Palace.
11 Jan/Tue: The Festival shifts to the Umaid Bhawan Palace for the finals of the Millennium Cup and the judging of the Creative Kite competition. Prize giving ceremony at 5.00 p.m. A night fly and farewell dinner with the kite fliers and our royal host, Maharaja Gaj Singh.
12 Jan/Wed: After an early breakfast, departure by private coach for Jaipur to partake in the 'kite frenzy" of the Pink City on Makar Sankranti visiting the historical town of Pushkar enroute. Check into your hotel at Jaipur. Afternoon free. Dinner tonight is at a lovely ethnic open air restaurant, recreating the ambience of a traditional Rajasthani village.
13 Jan/Thu : After breakfast, a city tour including an elephant ride up to the ramparts of the imposing Amber fort. The kite fliers will do a small press show in the afternoon. In the evening, an unforgettable visit to the incredible kite bazaar of Jaipur - buzzing with activity! Dinner at the hotel.
14 Jan/Fri: Makar Sankranti !! The sky is filled with thousands of kites !!! Morning demo of the big kites at Chaugan Stadium. Kites and manjha lines await you on a terrace in the heart of the old city. Test your kite fighting skills against the thousands of fliers who will spend all day on the rooftops. Lunch will be served on the terrace. In the evening a visit to the Nahargarh Fort provides a spectacular view of kites over the city, silhouetted against the setting sun. Dinner at the charming restaurant at the Fort. Overnight Jaipur.
15 Jan/Sat: Morning free to wander the city hunting for bargains. Transfer to the Railway station for your Express train departing at 5.55 pm, New Delhi arrival at 10.15 pm.(or take a flight to Delhi - $ 58) Either transfer to the International airport for the flight home OR extend your stay in India for an even more memorable tour - just ask Nomad Travels.
Tour A: The Taj Mahal extension (Agra & Delhi)
15 Jan/Sat: After breakfast proceed by private car/coach to Agra ( 230 kms) enroute visiting the ancient Mughal capital of Fatehpur Sikri. Arrive Agra and check-in to the hotel. A short orientation tour of Agra city. Overnight Agra.
16 Jan/Sun: An early morning visit to see the unrise over the magnificent Taj Mahal - jewel of the East, a memorial built by Mughal Emperor Shah Jehan for his queen-consort Mumtaz. Continue sightseeing of Agra before driving 210 kms to Delhi. On arrival at Delhi check-in at the hotel for overnight.
17 Jan/Mon: Take a full day tour of India’s Capital, a bustling metropolis of diverse cultures abounding in historic and contemporary monuments - the Red Fort, Qutub Minar, Rashtrapati Bhawan, the Bahai Lotus temple, Mahatma Gandhi’s samadhi, to name a few. You could also spend the day discovering the kite makers of Delhi! Evening transfer to the airport for the departure flight home OR extend your stay in India for an even more memorable tour - ask Nomad Travels for several exciting options!
Tour B: Castles and Camels (Camel safari in Shekhawati)
15 Jan/Sat : After breakfast drive to Mandawa (175 km) in the Shekhawati area, famous for its wall frescoes and painted "havelis" (traditional Rajasthani homes) - a colourful jewel in the desert. Visit the towns of Nawalgarh and Dundlod enroute. Check in at Castle Mandawa, a 16th century fort, now a luxury hotel. Overnight Castle Mandawa.
16 Jan/ Sun : After breakfast, leave for an overnight camel safari - a once in a lifetime experience - discover rural India where time seems to stand still. Personal riding camels with grooms and a cook, a camel cart with tents and all camping equipment accompany you. Rest in the afternoon under a shade of a tree by a well, riding out again as the day cools down. Riding into the dunes at sunset is a magical experience, surpassed only by the thrill of camping under the blazing desert stars while a roaring fire keeps you warm and a hot meal provides much needed sustenance ! Overnight tented camp.
17 Jan/Mon : Some more riding before the sun gets too hot ? Then transfer by car to Delhi to catch your flight home tonight OR extend your stay in India ... check out our tours to Varanasi, Khajuraho, Ajanta, Ellora, Kerala or Goa.
Festival Package - US$ 250 - All inclusive package from 09 to 15 Jan with meals, local transportation and inter city travel.
Taj Mahal extension : US$ 125
Castles and Camels : US$ 175
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This promises to be the biggest BORK issue ever. You guys keep contributing such useful material. These past two months have seen a noticeable decline in flammable postings. This month we are also including some material from the KiteBuggy email list. We have a tremendous resource here and now you can search through all of the issues together. Keep up the good work!
The multiple issue keyword search can be found here - Search all issues
Once again I'm indebted to the faithful BORK staff:
- Craig Rodgerson
- Peter C. Hugger Editor
This page is a summary of postings on the rec.kites Usenet news group that our editors believe to be interesting and useful. Opinions expressed in these postings are not those of KiteLife Magazine or its staff.
Bridles Content:
- GFAK Adjustment
- Matrix Active
- Bridle Design
- Bridle Dimensions
- Tim Dihedral
GFAK Adjustment
I purchased a Bandit made by Go Fly A Kite, a few months ago but cannot get it to stay up very long. The kite starts rocking side to side more and more then noses dives to the ground. I attempted to adjuster the bridle but now I'm afraid it's way off. Is there a measurement that would be a good starting point to level out the kite? Any other ideas that might correct this problem.
I also have a Thunderfoil from New Tech that I like very much. But I would like to use the Bandit and try some tricks. I'm starting to learn that perhaps the Bandit is not the best kite for this. It also seems to require alot of wind.
Lastly, I might want to pick up a better stunt kite that requires less wind but would like to stay under $60.00 US. Any suggestions?
===================================================================
There's usually some type of mark at the starting point for the bridle -- look for some type of black mark on the bridle string. If it doesn't exist, you can try adjusting the bridle attachments so they're about 1/3 of the way from the top of the bridle string, and then work downward (in 1/4 inch steps) until the kite seems stable in an 8-10mph wind.
I highly recommend the Beetle by Flying Wing. Most kite stores and on-line kite shops sell it for about $46 or so. Very durable, and with upgraded lines quite the trickster.
One place to look is http://www.intothewind.com; another is http://www.windpowersports.com (and no, I'm not an employee of either -- just a happy customer of both).
===================================================================
Hi Todd, hi folks.
To complement on Joseph post I would say that, on some kites, the bridle is black and the reference mark, when there is one, is usually of ligth color.
If you see no mark then try the following:
1 - Adjust the bridle as per Joseph suggestion.
2 - Hold the kite by the two tow points (the small loops of line or clips where you attach your control lines).
3 - The kite shall make an angle with the floor (or ground) such that the wing tips are a little lower than the nose.
4 - If the nose seems to low, your bridle adjustment is probably too heavy (or radical as some say it). Move the tow points up.
5 - If the nose seems to high, your bridle adjustment is too ligth. Move the tow points down.
Remember to adjust the two sides so they are identical. Use small increment while testing. Try to find the upper and lower limits and mark these on the bridle with a suitable pen. Someone, in this group, suggested using a sewing thread of constrasting color to mark the bridle. Then another mark in between can indicate the optimum setting.
Another point to check is that no bridle leg is wrapped around a spar. Generally, upper bridle legs goes on top of upper spreader (if there is one) and bottom bridle legs oes on bottom of lower spreaders.
I have observed that on most of the kites in my bags (yes I have two bags full, kites can become an addiction) the tow points are adjusted in such a way that if I pull down (toward trailing edge) on the bridle so as to flatten it against the frame and with the upper leg parallel to the spine, the junction of the bridle legs will be slightly lower than the lower spreader. This can also serves as an indication that your bridle is not too bad or in real need of some adjustment.
If your kite is relatively small (3 to 4 feet in wingspan), it may require some higher wind to fly than a full size kite (around 8 feet). I use the word may, because, today, with the craze for small indoor/low wind kites, you can find very small kites (2 feet wingspan or even less) that will fly in a puff of air.
A smaller kite will also require very small hand movements for control. And also, try to position your hands as if you were controling a bike (in front of you, with elbows at your side and sligthly in front of your chest. That way you can pull a little to steer and push back to resume straigth fligth.
Wind or no wind, fly for fun :-)
Jean (Johnny) Lemire
Matrix Active
>has anyone got experience making a turbo bridle for a stranger?
Yes, I used a method similar to Andy Wardley's turbo mod for the BoT, where you keep the same bridle but add a knot. It does leave the bridle a little shorter so the frame might get more stress in higher winds. This hasn't been an issue so far on my UL, it has a 5P frame, but if you try it on a standard Stranger you might want to keep eye out for the frame deforming - RCF6 isn't the worlds strongest carbon.
Anyhow heres my old post:
Yes I have on my UL, and it works very nicely. It made the kite generally snappier but it especially improved flic flacs, flip flop/fountains, flat spins from a horizontal pass and multiple flat spins. On the, only slightly, downside fades take a little more care to hold and those killer stops don't back up quite as nicely as with the static bridle. Because the turbo bridle pulls the nose in when driving, it's better behaved in very low wind without lightening the bridle too.
The dimensions I used are
Upper LE
\
\390
\ 185
\_____/
/ \ All dim's in mm, measured between knots
/ \
/ 565 \
/ \
Lower LE T Piece keep the in-haul as standard.I still like the laid back feel of the original bridle so I came up with the following knotting scheme which allows me to adjust the bridle without unknotting the yoke, and even to convert from turbo to static bridle just by loosening the larks head at the left and sliding it over the stopper knot up to the pickup point. I've since used it on the BoT and Fusion too, it's never slipped yet.
Top LE Conn Pig-tail
\ |
\ X
\ _X_
Larks \ _____________________________|_|_|
Head _|_|_ | | Larkshead
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/ |_| |_| ^ |_|_|
/ Fig8 Stop Knot \
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Bottom LE Conn T-Piece-- Ian Newham
Bridle Design
Eeeagh! Why does my kite fly like a piece of crap?
or:
Adventures in powerkite bridle design.
An usenet posting by Simon Stapleton
Well, here goes again. Another long and technical posting on powerkite design, probably full of errors and useless to most people, but I'm in a braindumping mood having been away from the 'net for 10 days. If you're not up for nasty vector maths, or at least the concepts of vector maths, moments and forces etc, it's probably best to tune out now.
And for those mathematicians out there, I've probably messed up my terms in all this - it has, after all, been in excess of 15 years since I studied any of this stuff. Apologies in advance.
Are we seated comfortably? Then I'll begin.
Once upon a time, there was a young and enthusiatic kite designer, who we'll call Simon. Although well versed in the black arts of sewing ripstop and shaping the skins of kites, he was still, shall we say, _rubbish_ at designing bridles. Hence, out of the bag, his kites tended to look pretty bad, and fly worse. And it took him a lot of iterative shortening and lengthening of lines to get the worst of the problems resolved, let alone fine-tune the things to fly as they were supposed to.
His primary bridle design had improved since the early days, mainly through conversations with other designers, but his secondary bridles were generally made by hanging the kite from the ceiling of his castle^H^H^H^H^H^Hflat and adjusting until it looked 'right'. Which sort of worked, but required a lot of fine tuning later on. So he decided to look into what actually makes the shape of the kite, and how adding line here makes the kite sag there, and a whole lot of other stuff, with the intention of automating the process. And in the process of doing this, he found a lot of things he'd never even thought about. And his head hurt. A lot.
OK. I'll be honest. That designer was me. I was trying to optimise the bridle for the blue spot kite, and I wanted to bung some parameters into my spreadsheet, hit the 'go' button, and feed the results directly into a CAD package for a nice graphical display. Problem was, I was away from home, mainly on French trains, and had no access to computers. So I decided to try and derive this stuff from basics. I've done higher level mechanics, so this should be no problem, right? Hah!
First thing I did was make some assumptions, as follows.
1: A cellular powerkite can be considered spanwise as a series of hinged girders with point loads acting upon them. This (point loads) is fine for the bridle attachment points, but less than optimal for the lift forces, but I wanted to simplify this as much as possible.
2: The lift at any point across the span of a kite is directly proportional to the chord at that point, assuming the same profile across the entire span, and the same AoA for all profiles.
From the second of these two assumptions, it can be seen that at a given point x on the span of a kite, the lifting force applied is a vector L perpendicular to the surface with a magnitude |L| = f(Cx), where f is the function describing the amount of lift generated for the chord C at point x.
This gives us assumption 3... 3: The lift generated over a section of the span is given by the sum of the lift vectors acting across it.
So, if we split the kite into rigid, straight sections, we can deduce a point load acting at the geometric mean point in terms of chord which has magnitude |L| = Sf(Cm), where S is the span of the section and Cm is the mean chord over that span, and acting in a direction perpendicular to the angle of the surface. If you see what I mean.
So, we now have a kite, split into a number of straight sections, and we know what the loads are acting on those sections. So how the hell do we go about bridling it?
Well. Let's get simplistic. We have a one lined kite, rigid and flat. We can work out what the lift forces are, and find out by summing the vectors (ass. 3) where the total lifting force is applied. So we can attach a line to that point and voila! we're bridled. If we attach the line elsewhere, there will be a turning moment generated and the kite will spin around.
However, in the real world, you can't do that. Air is not uniform, and lift changes as we move and airspeed changes, and a kite bridled as described above would most likely fall out of the sky, or at least flap around a bit. What we need to do is bring the bridling point below the kite, which will reduce the sensitivity to twitchy changes in airspeed.
So, we attach a line directly to either end of the kite, and bring them together. But where do we bring them together? Well, from the above example, we can intuitively see that the point must be on the line of the combined lift vector, or the kite will rotate around it. So we can move the point up and down the line of the lift vector, and the only thing we change is the sensitivity to gusts, right? Well, actually, no. As the point moves towards the kite, the angle A of the 2 bridling lines moves further from the perpendicular, and a compressive force C of magnitude |L|tan(A) is applied at both bridling points, across the span of the kite.
Time for a diagram, methinks.
L
^
|
|
--->C | C<---
========================
:\ /:
: \ / :
:_/\ /\_:
: A \ / A :
\ /
\ /
\ /
\ /
\ /
T1 _\| |/_ T2
\ /
\/
|
\|/ T
|
|
|It can be seen that vector T, the tension in the flying line, is equal to the sum of the two vectors T1 and T2, the tensions in the bridling lines, as well as the lift vector L. T1 and T2 are both equal to L/2 + C.
Combined with the turning moments which are generated by having the bridle lines offset from the centre of lift, the compressive force C will tend to make the kite bend. New, we're assuming that the kite is rigid, so the point on the kite where these forces are maximised will be at the centre (assuming a constant chord). So, as the span increases, the kite becomes more and more likely to bend, until finally it does.
Once the kite has bent (and we're still assuming a rigid surface, so we'll assume it bends at the centre point only), we now have 2 lifting surfaces of equal area, but inclined from the horizontal by an angle. By summing the two lift vectors L1 and L2 from the two surfaces, we still get the lift vector L, but as part of the lift is acting sideways, we have reduced the efficiency of the kite. Some of the lift is now being used to tension the bridle lines, rather than being transmitted down the flying line and generating pull.
Now, the angle that the 2 sections assume will be roughly perpendicular to the two bridling lines - if we move the bridling point for the 2 sections to the centre of lift of each section, the sections will be exactly perpendicular to the bridle lines. So, as the point where the bridles come together approaches the surface of the kite, more and more of the kite's lift will be wasted on the bridling, rather than generating pull.
We can now see that in order to get the most pull from the kite, as much of the kite as possible should be perpendicular to the combined lift vector L of the entire kite. Note that this does _not_ necessarily mean that the kite should be bridled 'flat'. Why's that? Let's see.
We will now consider a 2 lined kite, which is basically what quads are as well. This 2 lined kite is split into two basically independent wings, and the lift from each of those wings is transmitted by a single bridling line directly to the flying lines. For a small enough span, and a rigid enough kite, this is an acceptable model, and the bridle lines will be attached directly at the centre of lift. The lifting force L for each wing must act directly down the flying line and through the handle. For a small enough span, we can assume parallel flying lines, and the kite will be bridled 'flat'. However, as the span increases beyond a couple of metres or so, the median points on the surface get further and further apart until, if the kite was bridled flat, the flyer would need to hold his/her arms spread as wide as possible from the body.
So, for a (relatively) fixed handle point, as the span of the kite increases, the lines will move further and further away from the parallel. And the force applied down each line must be parallel to the line it is being transmitted down, so the combined lifting force for each wing must move away from being parallel to the combined force for the whole kite.
What does all this mean? It means that the optimum shape for the kite is, at least in part, determined by the length of the flying lines. When I realised that, I used what my daughter would probably term "bad words". Repeatedly.
And then I realised that as the shape of the canopy changes in order to make the lift vector run down the flying line, the median point moves and the angle of the flying line changes. Which will tend to make your head head hurt. Because the shape of the kite has to change again. It was at this point that I went away and got myself a beer.
OK. So it was more than just _a_ beer. But I'm back now. Let's have a little recap.
1: For maximum power transmission to the flying lines, we need as much of the surface perpendicular to the combined lift vector as possible.
2: The lift vector for each wing must pass through both the median point of the wing, and the flying line itself, back to the handle. This will not be parallel to the one for the other wing for any useful span kite.
3: In order to minimise stresses within the kite and bridling, as many as possible of the bridle lines should be perpendicular to the lift vector for the supported area.
Now, combining these, we can see that it's going to be difficult to get a bridle that maximises all three of these. Because of (2), we need at least _some_ bend in the kite to bring the lift vector for each wing through the flying lines, so we compromise (1) above. And (3) above means that it is difficult to bring the bridle lines together, so that will probably be compromised as well.
Thus I propose a hybrid between a standard bridle, and the "arch" bridle used on some of the Sputniks.
How's that going to work? Something like this, I hope.
Take a flat kite, and work out the median points for each wing.
Work out the angle of the lift vectors for each wing such that they pass through handles and median points for a chosen line length.
Pick a line attachment point, on that line. This will be a fair way from the kite, as will be seen later.
Work out how much curve to put into the _tips only_ to bend the lift vector for each wing to that angle. The tips will bend along a circle with a centre point of the attachment point.
Bridle the centre sections vertically down to an arch between the two attachment points.
Diagram time again...
========================= M
| | =:====
| | : ====
| | : / ===
| | : / ==
------+ | : / =
c \--- | : / __/
b\--- | : / __/
\--+ : / __/
\ : / __/
a\ :/__/
\/
A
:
:
:
:
:
HThe line described by the colons indicates the lift vector, passing through the median point M, the line attachment point A and the handle H.
We must make sure that the angles of the arch part of the bridle correspond to the angles of the combined vectors passing through them (lift and side pull) and therefore section a will be very steep, b less so, and c flat.
It is left as an exercise to the reader to try and actually calculate this stuff - I'm half way through doing it, and it's hard[1].
Comments, as ever, are welcomed.
Simon
[1] My brains are trickling out of my ears.
===================================================================
I like reading this stuff, it's excellent. Thankyou for taking the trouble to post it. I have a few comments.
For a Peter Lynn cross bridle (this is what you mean by a standard bridle?) the tow points are bridles across to the opposite wing for some distance, thus the wings that you have modelled are effectively larger, but overlap and so the tow points move closer together.
The non-parallel forces from each wing, in addition to tensioning the bridle lines, must add tension (or at least reduce the compression) in the centre of the kite where the wings join. Therefore the effect on the bridle lines is not as great as the geometry of a single wing would imply. It would be interesting to know how great this additional tension on the centre of the kite is.
Although a flat kite is best for lifting efficiency, it does not necessarily fly well due to stability and controlability issues.
The cross bridle design was (as I understand it) developed to give the best control of two line foils. Since two line control is not so important for four line kites, (particularly hybrids?) then there may be advantages (drag) in going to an arch or your hybrid bridle for the main bridle.
Keep up the good work!
Richard.
===================================================================
Thanks
Erm, no, I meant a standard cascaded bridle running to each side of the kite. The crossbridle is (from observation) slack at the 'crossed' bit - i.e. on the 'other' side of the kite and only comes into action when turning. I thought I'd ignore turning at the moment, it's all quite complex enough anyway. But when it's flying flat, the bridle on a peel is absolutely standard.
I _can't wait_ to start modelling what happens in turns. Not.
> The non-parallel forces from each wing, in addition to tensioning the > bridle lines, must add tension (or at least reduce the compression) in > the centre of the kite where the wings join. Therefore the effect on > the bridle lines is not as great as the geometry of a single wing would > imply. It would be interesting to know how great this additional > tension on the centre of the kite is.
This is true, and I'd be interested to know as well. I'm still building spreadsheets to try and model all this.
> > Although a flat kite is best for lifting efficiency, it does not > necessarily fly well due to stability and controlability issues.
Yep. Bang on. I'm trying to find the best mix of the flat and the curve.
> The cross bridle design was (as I understand it) developed to give the > best control of two line foils. Since two line control is not so > important for four line kites, (particularly hybrids?) then there may be > advantages (drag) in going to an arch or your hybrid bridle for the main > bridle.
I hope so.
Simon
===================================================================
Hi Alan,
Allen Stroh has a very detailed page on bridles. Have a look at:
http://home.san.rr.c...uning_tips.html
Andy Wardley's site has loads of good information too.
http://www.kfs.org/~abw/kite/#bridles
There is a lot to absorb with these sites, bookmark them and refer to them often -I do! ;-]
Steve
~strings attached~
Bridle Dimensions
Hi All, Maybe an odd question but is there a formula out there somewhere that can be used to calculate inhaul and outhaul bridle lengths? I realise fully that there are many variables involved but before I start to make a new kite (with no bridle dimensions available or a completed kite to peruse!) I would like to have some "rule of thumb" to work to. Any ideas? (except become a commis chef and leave kites alone :-) )
Phil H.
===================================================================
Hmmm... now let me think - Ah! I know! Is it a dual? If so, http://surf.to/a-edwards and peek at the bridle calculator.
Aik.
Tim Dihedral
Hi,
I have build a trick kite Tim and now I want to replace the static bridle with a dihedral active bridle (see Andy Wardley's website).
Is there anyone who has done this before and who is able to give me the right dimensions for a dihedral active bridle for Tim? In what way did it change the flying attributes of Tim?
Thanks in advance,
Hans
===================================================================
Hans,
I have built three TIM kites. One has the standard bridle, one has a turbo (dynamic) bridle, and the last has an Andy Wardley Dihedral Active Bridle. I prefer the way that the activated kite behaves. I like how it's easier to stall (for me) which makes all the cool tricks easier. At the request of a few other TIM builders, I have thrown together a simple web site detailing some of the construction methods I used and some of the suggestions I have for building a TIM. Included will be the measurements of the dihedral active bridle on my most recent TIM. I have about 2/3 of the site finished and posted, so you can check it out if you like. I will be adding the remaining information including the bridle stuff in the next few days, so check back. The URL is http://www.relia.net...y/TIM/index.htm I know it's not a fancy, graphical, web site, but there's hopefully something you can use there.
-Kent : Utah Kite Nerd
- Craig Rodgerson
-
This promises to be the biggest BORK issue ever. You guys keep contributing such useful material. These past two months have seen a noticeable decline in flammable postings. This month we are also including some material from the KiteBuggy email list. We have a tremendous resource here and now you can search through all of the issues together. Keep up the good work!
The multiple issue keyword search can be found here - Search all issues
Once again I'm indebted to the faithful BORK staff:
- Craig Rodgerson
- Peter C. Hugger Editor
This page is a summary of postings on the rec.kites Usenet news group that our editors believe to be interesting and useful. Opinions expressed in these postings are not those of KiteLife Magazine or its staff.
Buggies Content:
- CQuad Opinions
- Foil Design
- Foils vs Hybrids
- CQuad LE Deformation
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- Advice Needed
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- C-Quad LookAlike
CQuad Opinions
Top
I am looking at getting a 4.2m C-Quad power kite for kite surfing and skiing as well as just using as a power kite for big jumps etc.
Is this a wise investment??
Thanks for your thoughts.
===================================================================
Hi!
I bought a C-Quad 3.2 a months and a half ago, and I'm pretty satified with it.
However, the kite is _not_ easy to water relaunch!!! (If possoble at all!) and you got to be _very_ careful when packing it. It's very easy to break the leading edge rod. Yes, I know from experience ;-(
Apart from that, this is a great kite at a bargain price, which will give you lots of fun. It pulls like crazy and should be a good buggy engine. I've found it pretty easy to fly, and it reminds me of flying Revolution kites. Not quite the same, but close.
Include a couple of leading edge rods in your order too!
BTW I've jumped approx 11 meters with mine! (Ouch!)
Have fun!
Best Winds! SvenA
Foil Design
We mainly discussed the profile-of-choice and how to prefent bananaing. I like to add another issue: air-inlet starting point. On most foils the air inlet starts exactly at the centre of the nose. The inlets of the new Quadrifoils (S-xxl) and probably other high performance foils (jojo, Q-comp) all start a few % beyond the nose. Also our 24m^2 parapente has this.
I guess this is a good thing, but what's the story behind this?
cheers,
emiel
===================================================================
The only reason you want air-inlets is because the foil has to stay inflated. Foils with the air-inlet at the centre of the nose have their airflow much more disturbed then the new ones. with the same reason, kite-designers make their inlet smaller (JoJo Q comp) add ventiles so they can use less intakes and stay inflated (ekko). All inlets are disturbing the profile so as less as you can use it's the better .
greets
GGG
===================================================================
G'day, The precise reason for the above is that this is where the airflow stagnation point is at the operational angles of attack of the wing. Airpressure is highest here (because this is where the airflow splits to make its way above and below the wing), so it makes sense to place the inlet here and keep it as small as necessary for adequate inflation for the type of kite being built. All of my traction foils have their inlet a little down from the nose for this reason. Looking at the MH airfoil site, you will find stagnation point info on one of the parafoil airfoils. One would place the centre of the inltet at the % point mentioned and extend it fore and aft a little to give whatever width is need for good inflation. This will result in the inlet being just shy of the LE - thus, the nose will roll around a little.
Concerning banana, lateral tape at the A and CorD line att. points should be a good remedy. I might try this on my next foil...have a look at some modern paragliders, some have AR reaching 6, so this sort of thing is used. It is more of a problem on kites (for reasons I won't get into) and so this solution should be of great use to us. I'll try to dig up some relevant urls...
Paul
===================================================================
Placing the vent.
The vent is there to coincide with the stagnation point. The stagnation point is the point where the air flowing over the foil cannot decide whether to go over or under and so just stays where it is. This point is where maximum pressure takes place and so will give a foil maximum inflation.
Right with that out of the way.
The stagnation point moves with the AOA (angle of attack) . It moves round from front to back as the AOA is increased. The stagnation point occurs at the nose at 0 degree AOA and moves round, depending on the section, a few mm as the AOA is increased. As we bridle our foils to have a fixed AOA in free flight (no brake on ) of around 6 degree there is no point putting the inlet on the nose at its only going to let air out. Plus it gives a better nose radius to give better performance. If we knew for certain that the AOA was going to remain contant and the air flow to the nose was always going to be laminar the opening only need be a few mm wide. Unfortunately the nature of the beast, kite and wind means that we cannot say for certain where the stagnation point is when the foil is flying, and to get a quicker inflation we also put vent in a lower pressure area.
I imagine it like a stream of fast running water and pouring water into it , no problem in it goes and fast current carries it away . If you place a net on top of the water the water in contact with the net stops and goes slow, now pour the water on and it splashes back.
This also why I like mesh inlet as opposed to open vents. Air has a viscosity like water has and accordingly it sticks to stuff and the little bit of mesh means that even though not at the point of max pressure the air inside of the foil is going to have trouble getting out because it has to break through the mesh into a stream of faster moving air which has a boundary layer is sticking to the mesh.
For me personally I compromise and place the vent at around .5-1% from the nose to about 5-7%, but this depends on the radius of the nose of the section. it may limit ultimate performance slightly but I think it pays off.
A top performance foil could have its vent from 2% to 5% with no problems, on the other hand it may take a little extra time for luff recovery and tend to deflate in fast loops.
I say loops as opposed to turns where with a quad half the kite may be travelling backwards.
Paul stop doing those Hybrid plans for me for a second put your foil hat on and give your opinion.
Andy
===================================================================
Hi Emiel, hi everyone,
A quick intro for those that don't know me. I've been buggying for about half a year now (and flying stick kites for 2 years prior to taking up buggying). I own a PLFolding bug and my two kites are homebuilt: 3m Sands and 2m Eliminator (Andy Smith Designs), although I have also flown skytigers and predators and some of Andy's own Eliminators.
Currently I am spending a good deal of time developing a new foil with Andy. I have just finished the profile that we were working on, and have started cutting, so we should have a test kite out before too long.
I do a lot of work with computers (I am studying Robotics) and am slowly putting together a piece of software that will allow people to print out full scale profiles relatively easily. If you are a Linux/Unix user, you are likely to see me releasing it soonish, if you are a windows user, you may have to wait a while since I have never developed software for windows before.
Well, you want the mesh/inlet to be at the stagnation point on the profile. This point is the point of maximum pressure and it therefore obviously the point where you want to place the mesh/inlet. If you bridle your kite with a non-zero angle of attack, then the stagnation point will /never/ be at the 0% point, but will always be a little lower. Andy Smith informs me that this is all explained on Martin Hepperle's web page.
I'd be interested to know which kites start their mesh/inlet at 0% as I can't remember seeing one (although it is only fairly recently that I have been examining foils more closely).
Dave Lindgren
===================================================================
G'day All,
I'll second this. I'll re-post some comments I made on my new cascade bridled NPW prototype here in case it may be of interest (No response on rec.kites, perhaps most of the NPW folk there just like to build standard kites.) The issue of cascading is generally applicable. Rationalising bridles is a good way to up the performance of parafoils etc.
G'day All,
Just a quick note to all who have taken an interest in my cascade bridled Nasawing + those who may also be interested. I've flown the proto today (3m2 - 1.6m keel length, 100lb dacron bridle line) and it works fine. The A lines are cascaded into 4 lines on each side (3 upper into 1 lower at 1/3 of the overall distance from the sail attachment point to the flying line attachment) and the B lines are cascaded into 3 lines on each side (2 upper into 1 lower at varying overall distances). The kite needs a little fine tuning to smooth the sail along the A attachment points. The sail tends to pull a little tighter between each set of cascades because I have not bothered to allow for gathering due to the increase in angle between the lines. This is exacerbated in quad line flight where the angle made by the separate brake attachment point pulls the sail a bit tight between A10-9 and particularly between B5-4. There is a little bit of trailing edge flutter at lower brake settings and this may be a result of the above. I'll see how the tuning process goes, in this regard.
I think (rough calculations), I may have cut the overall (total) bridle length by half. This is a very significant reduction and should help cut down on parasitic drag, although I imagine that the main source of total drag for the NPW comes in the form of profile drag + induced drag - this means attention to the sail shape (which is beyond the scope of the present project).
When I finish tuning, I'll compare my kite to a friend's 1.5m kl (2.7m2?) NPW and see what differences in flight performance (if any) there are.
Smooth Winds,
Paul Watson
===================================================================
Hmmm,
Perhaps we should get a shared kbuggy traction kite plans page up. I could maybe include my basic Trident (hybrid) and perhaps a beginner non-rigid single surface kite or parafoil (like my Leviathan) when I have the plans organised. It is just a question of how much detail to include in the plans. We could emphasise the development angles in the plans so that builders could become involved in the development aspect. This would differentiate our plans from those that simply lead the builder through and don't encourage them to experiment. There seem to be a number of keen designers on this group and a development oriented plans page could help create more. Some thoughts, at least... Paul
===================================================================
G'day Mark,
With more flying, it looks like I have slightly improved performance with the cascading. I'll do some more testing with my friend's 2.7 soon. I think I'll have to go back to my own non-rigid single surface proto however, because a big performance jump will only come through a reduction in profile and induced drag. This means more AR, more "cells", a fully rolled and bridled LE and partial ribs (as in the Trident). I originally made the NPW merely as a benchmark kite after making my own non-rigid single surface proto. The NPW is a commonly made and serves as a point of comparison and disscussion. I couldn't help medling with the NPW, though, becasue it was the first kite I had ever built from a plan and I felt guilty..;-)
I believe that after hybrids, non-rigid single surface kites are going to make an impact on traction kiting. They are light weight, easy to make, scale indefinitely and are even better than parafoils to pack away. The big disadvantage at present is in terms of performance (namely L/D). Watch this space! Long live the traction design avant guard!
BTW: I must admit that find it increasingly difficult to wade through the threats and "politics" of rec.kites and find that this egroup is becomming a real design forum as well as a great place to discuss buggy technique/kites etc. I'll still post things like the NPW stuff but most of my general design discussion has tended to be direct or on this group, lately. I really hope that rec.kites recovers and understand your sentiments because I have had and read some good disscussions there.
Paul
===================================================================
Well, the heading had NPW in it, so here goes.
Wtih a little cardboad and duck tape, I made a self-launch box for my NPW. It's has an opening about three foot by three inches, a cavity about 8 inches deep, and is angled toward the wind about 45 degrees. Two screwdivers serve as anchors. I stuff it in the box tail-first, attach lines, walk out to my handles and just give a little tug and VOILA!
Now that I know it works I might dress it up a little...
Art
Foils vs Hybrids
Relaunching.... if the kite is face down... no chance
Not quite. I can usually relaunch my Trident from face down as long as it is not sitting squarely with the nose towards me. I pull on the appropriate side handle to flat-spin the kite so that the wind gets under the trailing edge. Once it does this the kite will flip up and you can reverse it into the air. Watch out for lines around spar ends, though. If you plan to race with hybrids, keep this in mind (Andy...;-). This technique is similar to the one that flexifoil stacker flyers use to flip their kite the right way up after landing upside down.
Paul
===================================================================
>Secondly I found it all to easy to get the kite to fly towards me. At which >point it nose dives unrecoverably because of the slack in the lines.
G'day Buzz,
A hybrid set-up tip: Have your CQ held by an assistant perpendicular to the ground. Let the lines out and adjust your handles so that the lines are tight with your hands in the neutral position. Again using the pigtail adjustment on your handles, try subtracting an inch or two from the brakes and this should help reduce luffing. When flying, make sure you hold your handles about 2-3cm below the top line.
Paul
===================================================================
G'day,
Hate carting them around the place but their performance is a big buzz. If one takes the time to learn to fly them well and can benefit from the advice of experienced hybrid flyers, then they repay the patience in a big way. Locally, they are probably the most numerous kite.
My original Trident has an unshaped sail, a heavy dacron bridle etc but can match or beat ever parafoil I've tried. For example, I was trying my basic 2.6 back to back the other day with a 5.7 PL N'Gen which is a very fine high performance parafoil (equiped with a fully shaped sail and spectra bridle). The Trident easily out accelerated the N'Gen, turned much quicker and seemed to have a higher top speed (It also didn't collapse bits of it in downturns, etc...!:-). Of course, the N'Gen gave more pull, but it does have considerably more area (especially if PL measures it projected as with the CQ). Didn't get a chance to compare line angle at the top of the window (L/D). Parafoils often seem sluggish and slow after flying hybrids...This is not to say that I have anything against parafoils, I love 'em and make and fly both parafoils AND hybrids.
You'll have to give us a report of the various kites you end up trying!
Paul
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Hi! This is my first posting after a few very interesting days of lurking. I'm a buggier & kitesurfer. Still mostly a buggier, I guess, tho lately the summer crowds on the beaches have kept me on the water. I buggy at Pine Point, a 3 mile beach in Scarborough, Maine, US and sometimes at the local high school field after work because it's about 2 hours closer! In the winter I kiteski and ice buggy at Long Lake, also in Maine. Anyhow, I've been really happy with my 2 CQuads (2.2 & 6.3) and I haven't flown my foils in a while. I'm hoping to make a bigger hybrid soon. I'm thinking about how to make it with a separate LE section between each spine, held in either by tention or velcro on the ends. The idea, of course, is to have something that will roll up (instead of folding). Side benefit would be that you could replace broken sections individually. How does the Trident stack up against the CQuad in power per sq meter?
Regarding the acceleration of your Trident, Paul... I've noticed the same thing with the CQuads. I've been attributing it not only to the good L/D, but the lower mass of the kite compared to foils... is my thinking flawed? _If_ the weight was the same between say a CQuad 4.2 and a quadrifoil XL, the mass of the air in the XL would create inertia that would lessen acceleration (not of the buggy, but of the kite), and possibly contribute to overflying by "coasting" out of the window. Air "weighs" about 1 lb./ 10 cu. ft.... how many cubic feet in an XL? I havent compared the weight of a foil to a CQuad (not including air
... does anyone here have the figures?Other advantages of a CQuad I can think of are:
Handling - I initially didn't like the handling but now I like it better than a foil's. After the initial period of occasional flip-over-nose-dives, I now find that I can keep the CQuads in the air more consistently than foils.
Flying wet: seems like a cquad flies better than a foil after a dunking, probably because there is less surface area to get coated with water. It also has no cavity to hold water! Sand can't get caught inside, either.
Might be my imagination, but it seems that CQuads keep their power better in turns (of the kite, not the buggy). Maybe that has something to do with acceleration?
L/D & coef. of lift seem very good, and it certainly seems that if L/D is what you're into you could design something based on the CQuad that would have an even better ratio.
Bad things are packability, relaunching (or do I just need to practice that more?), bridle snags on the spar ends, different skills required to get the most performance, susceptable to damaged fittings & spars... hmmm... what else?
Mark Frasier
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I'm currently making a proto Trident which uses a multi-piece LE rod. The sections of rod won't correspond with the number of inter-spar spaces because the kite is not really big enough to justify it and there are five spines... In order to attach the leading edge rigging, I'm sewing a piece of dacron braid along the leading edge sleeve underneath where the spine sits. The lines will be looped through the bottom of the leading edge sleeve and around the dacron. This will let me slide the LE spar in with more freedom, not having to guide it through the constricted spaces made by the conventional knots. I don't think there should be any problems regarding load distribution..
>How does the Trident stack up >against the CQuad in power per sq meter?
This'd be a bit difficult to measure with too much certainty. It certainly would have to be within the same ballpark. What I can say is that I have tried to optimise the Trident for speed and L/D and have used thinner airfoil sections (+I use a different camber system, higher AR, different planform, different line cascade scheme etc...). I have also tried to make my hybrid simple to make. Perhaps the following anecdote can vaguely serve as a performance comparison ;-) - I was buggying with a friend in 30-40knts over 8 or so kms of beach on the weekend. He had a 1.6 C-Quad and I was flying my 1.6 Trident. The CQ actually has more area, I think, because PL seems to be calculating it in projection and I still calculate mine in flat plan. The CQ certainly looks a little bit bigger...We both had them on very short lines of 5m. The wind was quatering so we had an upwind run in one direction and a broad reach in the other (each run of several kms). I'm not sure about skill differences, but I could pull away from him on the upwind leg and keep with him or go very slightly faster at times on the downwind (We were going bloody fast!!!). Someone else was flying a 2.5m2 Peel on 150' lines and I could go upwind MUCH faster with my Trident on both the 5m lines and also when I earlier had 35 m lines, although when the wind gusted to 40knts or so with a squall, I found that I was overpowered with the long lines while my friend with the Peel could keep plodding along!!
> >Regarding the acceleration of your Trident, Paul... I've noticed the same >thing with the CQuads. I've been attributing it not only to the good L/D, >but the lower mass of the kite compared to foils... is my thinking flawed?
No not at all :-). I also believe that hybrids are not subject to the same inertia because they lack the significant mass of "contained air" that parafoils are stuck with. This is also why they fly so well in light air.
>_If_ the weight was the same between say a CQuad 4.2 and a quadrifoil XL, >the mass of the air in the XL would create inertia that would lessen >acceleration (not of the buggy, but of the kite), and possibly contribute >to overflying by "coasting" out of the window. Air "weighs" about 1 lb./ 10 >cu. ft.... how many cubic feet in an XL? I havent compared the weight of a >foil to a CQuad (not including air
... does anyone here have the figures? > > >Other advantages of a CQuad I can think of are: > >Handling - I initially didn't like the handling but now I like it better >than a foil's. After the initial period of occasional flip-over-nose-dives, >I now find that I can keep the CQuads in the air more consistently than foils.Yes, the handling is something of a shock at first, but everything else feels dissapointingly sluggish after one becomes accustomed to the handling of hybrids. I also think that hybrids are more stable when it comes to minor collapses and turbulence. > >Flying wet: seems like a cquad flies better than a foil after a dunking, >probably because there is less surface area to get coated with water. It >also has no cavity to hold water! Sand can't get caught inside, either.
Yes, I've used the Trident for Ksurfing, but I don't like swimming with it if it flatcrashes. It doesn't seem to be as affected by water/moisture as foils. > >Might be my imagination, but it seems that CQuads keep their power better >in turns (of the kite, not the buggy). Maybe that has something to do with >acceleration?
Not if you overcook it with the brakes and stall one half. I do agree, though, but I think that one needs to keep them moving. Perhaps it is because the angle of attack control of hybrids results in less wing distortion than the brakes on parafoils... > >L/D & coef. of lift seem very good, and it certainly seems that if L/D is >what you're into you could design something based on the CQuad that would >have an even better ratio.
Oh yes, I flew a proto 4m CQ which had higher AR than the current one and seemed to have a higher zenith... There are some simple fixes like AR, aerofoil changes, spine number increase etc that can increase L/D. I think the current CQs have been a bit "detuned" from the protos I flew so that they can be more accessable - something made neccessary by their price advantage, methinks. I haven't even gotten into shaped aluminium battens etc. In the meantime, with my Tridents, I will should get a L/D increase by shaping the sail and fitting spectra rigging...:-) The amazing thing is that I can get such a perforamnce advantage over poorafoils with such a relatively simple kite! > >Bad things are packability, relaunching (or do I just need to practice that >more?), bridle snags on the spar ends, different skills required to get the >most performance, susceptable to damaged fittings & spars... hmmm... what >else?
Yes, parafoils win hands down here!
Paul Watson
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Hi, I know of only two people called Kane, One my 15 month old son and the other a Mr Hartnell (if thats correct). I am assuming you are the latter as my boy can't speak or use the PC yet.
So on the assumtion you are the latter I have a few questions regarding buggy racing with c-quads .
1) What are the advantages / disadvantages over foils. 2) I have heared a roumor that you have been racing very successfully with them in europe ,if its true, how well did you do against what opposition. 3) Are you going to be doing more buggy related activities or was this a one off. 4) Would you recommend c-quads for novice racers or are they really the province of the experienced flyer in that arena. 5) Would you speculate that the top racers in Europe will be switching to c-quad / hybrid power in the near future.
Thanks in advance.
NNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not the holy grail of buggy tricks, the no hands one foot reverse wheelstand. I refuse to believe it, I won't believe it, Its a fictional trick I put on the trick list never to be accomplished.
But if some one has done the "smart arse" then it shall forever be named after them. Although the "Steve" or the "de Rooy" just doesn't have that ring about it.
Blast this means thinking up another impossible trick .
How about the "reverse abduction with 360 spin" and no dunes allowed
Talking of tricks a short while back I descibed a crash I had with another buggier, well the pictures have been developed and they are pretty good. I hope to make then available soon for the masses. They should be in a magazine they are so funny. In fact I think I'll get some Tee shirts made up me and they other guy.
Watch this space.
Off the dunes or off flat ground ala kitesurf.
Just try them in good old gusty inland winds in the UK on grass that gives concrete a run for its money and see where it gets you. F=ma when my 105kg frame hits the dirt whilst trying these tricks boy it hurts.
Andy ( smudge ) smith
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1) What are the advantages / disadvantages over foils. =====I used various foils from about 1991 then in Jan/Feb '98 after a few months of full time buggy riding with Ngens, Peter Lynn gave me a 2.6m2 & a 6.0m2 C-quad. We spent an afternoon racing around a technical dune circuit swapping kites (2.6m CQ & 3.5m Ngen). The person with the C-quad always won due to better L/D, more effective de-power, and collapse resistance, it was easier to keep the kite in the sky. That very first high AR 4 spine 2.6 is still charging under the reckless guidance of Andrew Burman in Auckland (C-quads are easy to maintain). I used to tack 20km upwind along a narrow beach with direct longshore wind, perfecting upwind turns, which are way better with C-quads. The better L/D and substancial de-power with brakeline let off at the zenith allows tacks retaining good speed and a wide arc (smaller the kite the better). With up to 90 deg. between each leg and fast upwind turns the V.M.G. was so much better than with an Ngen. On the water front (but applies to buggy freestyle too), I have noticed that kites which fly slower (foils and especially Naish/wipika) tend to provide longer, smoother, less violent airtime.
2) I have heared a rumor that you have been racing very successfully with them in europe ,if its true, how well did you do against what opposition. =====On spur of the moment Steph and I went in the Red Bull buggy cup at Borkum, we were supposed to be doing kitesurf demos. We only had standard PL comp buggys, quite unlike the lovely technology and German engineering of most other competitors. On the first day we had 4 races, all mass starts with 80 drivers, I was 3rd, 1st, 3rd, 12th from (not entirely reliable) memory and came out first overall on points for the day. I was lucky because for the first 3 races the wind was light and the course was short and technical multi-lap (new class 8 influence is good). I was able to use an 8.5m I was "at one with". I'd just come from Italy, Cervia kite festival, where for nine days solid I kitesurfed with that 8.5m. It was fast upwind but the main advantage was on the direct downwind legs where people with foils up to 13m2 were having trouble with collapse. Also because the kite flys fast and is so light per m2 I could build up App. wind and cruise downwind at more than wind speed when the wind was so light people wanted to call it off. The 4th race was windy, 5.2m for me, but then it decreased and the big overpowered guys excelled. Likewise in the final the next day I started with the 5.2, but the wind cranked and I couldn't finish and there was excellant kitesurfing to be had anyway. Steph got a cup for third in the Womens, but had the temerity to be on the water during the prize giving. After some between race "drag races" with the Moskitos, jojos and Stephans S-kites, using the 4.2 C-quad, I think at higher wind speeds the different kite designs performances tend to converge, and buggy design and overall buggy/driver mass to power ratio becomes more critical.
3) Are you going to be doing more buggy related activities or was this a one off. =====I loved it, but I'm in the water from now on. I'd have liked to concentrate on kite-snowboard freestyle this winter but have found NZ is not so good for this - been on the water all winter instead.
4) Would you recommend c-quads for novice racers or are they really the province of the experienced flyer in that arena. =====Yep, they're cheap and easy to fix/tune and with practise you can keep 'em in the sky no problem. However, they are adversely affected by turbulence from other kites to a much greater extent. This can make it very difficult fighting your way to the front of a tight pack.
5) Would you speculate that the top racers in Europe will be switching to c-quad / hybrid power in the near future. =====They should definately give serious thought to the big guns (8.5 and 10.5). They are so fast and responsive compared to an equivalent powered foil, a worthy addition to anyones quiver. But there are those folks who like foils, and will always only like foils, it's ingrained in the culture, maybe the younger generation will embrace the hybrid/delta revolution.
Paul Watson wrote: <snip> BTW: How did the C-Quads go against the parafoils in Europe? Also, did you get to try Pete's two wheel buggy prototype? I've got one on order because I'm a masocist and want to go kitebiking with my PL comp.
=====I haven't even seen it, but I saw someone having a blast on a Libre kitebike in Germany, handleing gusts well, should bring on a whole new set of challenges. I've had a play on a variety of full and rear suspension buggys lately and the advantages are very worthwhile. Wouldn't it be nice to have an indestructable super duper light weight composite cheap deluxe full suspension buggy for duneriding? -Kane.
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Hiya, That explains why I cannot seem to get ahead of the bloke(Andrew Burman) ;-) Is this the same "checker" version, fluoro green and black if I recall? I've not seen him flying it for a long time now, opting for the N'gen 2.2 instead. Could just be 'cause the N'gen was a new "toy" at the time.
Andrew "tangles" Robertson also had one of these which he raced into oblivion at the last moose-meet. Actually doing a return upwind run on little more than half a bridle. I was surprised at seeing such a deformed C-quad still performing upwind.
It's a shame the older style C-quads with more spines and the triangular LE panels have been replaced by the parallel panel designs. They seemed to have a little more power, lower gust susceptability and a much smoother fly.
I have one of the mid production(October '98) 4.2's, parallel panel but without a label and a different bridle layout. Andrew noted that it flies very different than the newer ones, a lot better in some cases, performing well in low winds despite heavy fibreglass frame.
Ciao,
CQuad LE Deformation
Hi there,
I have a problem with my big cquad. When it gets really powered up the leading edge bends "in" (toward the TE, or so it appears). I don't think I've noticed it on the buggy. It mostly happens when kitesurfing. I would ask the question on the kitesurf list, but those folks can be a little weird when it comes to technical questions. I'd probably mostly get responses telling me to buy a different kite. Anyhow, there isn't any deformation on the center cell or the outside cells, just on the ones on each side of the center. I was thinking of lengthening the bridle lines that go to the center of each of those cells by means of a pigtail or something, but before I do it I thought I'd see if anyone has any better ideas. It really seems to cut kite power and speed a lot when it happens.
Thanks, Mark Frasier
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this is common when overpowered on most c-quads, i dont know what the official word is, but i just ignore it on mine.
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Hi All,
I noticed the same thing (on the same position) when static flying my 3.2 C-quad, but did not see it buggying. My first tought was that something was wrong with the carbon due to bad packing, but than it would also appear in lighter winds. What would be the gain when you lengthen the bridle lines?
Ciao,
Reinout Bertels
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Hi all, I've just recently got into buggying and have purchased a CQuad 3.2. I am very happy with the pull of the kite but I have a problem in that it seems to fly out of the wind window and sink gently to the ground. Is this a 'feature' of cquads or have I done something wrong. I do not know any experienced flyers in the area so would appreciate some help. I have a sneaky feeling that my brake lines could be too long ??
Cheers Richard
DIVIDERDIVIDERDIVIDER
Ok, good to know. I can't ignore it, though, it robs too much power & efficiency. I think I'll make a pocket for an extra spar in those spots so I can add stiffness when I'm kitesurfing and take them out when I'm buggying or skiing.
If you find anything else out, please let me know.
Thanks, Mark Frasier
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I was thinking tat the deformation might be due to those two bridle lines not stretching as much as the rest of the bridle when under a big load. That could pull down the LE enough to "catch the edge" in the wind. I was thinking that if I could flatten out the LE area (in cross-section) I could cut down on the effect.
Mark Frasier
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To reduce L.E. deformation the leading edge centre cell bridles have to be tuned to quite a precise length compared to other bridles. Usually the deformation is the "pop in" type, where the bridles are too short. I have abrasion resistant kevlar loops with larks head fine tuning on these bridles. Deformation isn't usually a problem when buggying except when jumping seatbelted to a heavy BF buggy, or if you weight 100kg+. But kitesurfing it is often a problem when powering upwind, and this becomes critical if riding a small wakeboard. I have two of each kite size, one a lightwind/buggy version (3.9mm carbon L.E. spar), and another for kitesurfing (4.5 or 5mm carbon L.E., stronger bridles & lines and more regularly maintained handles/harness for peace of mind out in the ocean). The main thing is to tune the "check bridles" and if you can still provide overwhelming resistance to the kite, then get some 4.5mm carbon for the 4.2 (4.5mm GRP works well for this size), 5.2 or 6.3 and either 4.5 or 5mm for the 8.5 depending on your personal mass.
Isn't it interesting how any technical questions regarding a certain kite or board design directed to the kitesurf news group are treated so guardedly/cautiously/defensively/offensively etc? With the much anticipated boom in Kitesurfing the group is used/abused by many manufacturers, it's very politically influenced, hence disscussion can be quite mundane for long periods with few people willing to throw a spanner in the works to liven things up. I find the discussion on this (buggy) newsgroup very free and interesting in comparison (but obviously would prefer more talk of kitesurfing), however I do enjoy a bit of buggy freestyle every now and then. On the subject of that most coveted of flatland tricks, the reverse wheelstand, there is a Dutch/Canadian guy called Steve in Holland who could do this very well. We were on Borkum, I was racing and did not see but my partner Stephanie assured me he was leading edge, doing reverse with good control and speed and a one foot no hands routine; he secured Qfoil sponsorship that day. Here in New Zealand people up in the big dunescapes of the Auckland region are pushing the aerial tricks side of things, I recently saw a video of jumps around 10m long with 360 rotations and frontwheel piruette or reverse landings. -Kane.
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That could be.
A good trick to check line length is to find a field with a chain-link fence and set the kit up against it with the wind holding it flat to the fence. Walk out to your handles and hold them so that the top & bottom lines all have tention (but not enough to pull the kite off the fence). If your lines are right, your handles should be tipped forward about 10-20 degrees... i.e. the brakes should be on a bit. If your handles are tipped way forwards, of if you can't make the brake lines taught at all, you need to make your brakes shorter relative to the main lines.
If you have multiple attachment points for your brake lines, try shortening the brake lines that way. If you don't have any way to shorten the brake lines, make a spacer for your top lines. Just take a peice of cord a couple of feet long and tie it to your top line connection point on your handle. Tie overhand knots about 2 inches apart for the whole length of the cord. Make another one for you other handle and try to get the knots in the same spots. Now attach the top lines to the spacers at the right knot and you'll be all set.
You should fly the kite with a bit of tention on the brake lines, especially at the edges of the window when you aren't moving. When you get rolling along in your buggy you should be able to fly with less brake to get the best upwind angle, but the most power will usually be generated with about 10-20% of the pull distributed to the brakes and the other 80-90% on the top lines.
If you're flying in a spot with shifty winds that would also explain the kite falling out of the sky. One moment you're flying on the edge of the window, the next the wind has shifted and you're outside the window, even though you haven't moved the kite. The kite would drift downwards and towards the middle of the window in this case.
Good luck, Mark Frasier
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I was talking to Phillip McConnachie on the weekend at our annual festival. He was saying he has the same problem which he's fixed by adding another spar in the leading edge pocket. I don't exactly remember all the details but you could email him at phil@kitefactory.com.au and ask him about it. The other option is to go for a larger diameter spar. I've seen the start of a similar problem with a 4.2 in the buggy in strong winds.
Chris
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Hiya, This is my debut to the kitebuggy e-group, should've joined it ages ago....
Just got my 6.3 today and I've already replaced the carbon LE and spines with fiberglass. Over the weekend I'll test it and if need be make the nescesary bridle adjustments. The problem seems to amplify after some flight time as the bridlelines stretch. I've found the lines going to the LE between battens to be the main culprits since they dont' tend to stretch as much as the frame gives a little in this area. Introducing a loop of kevlarline through the original towpoint allows them to be made slightly longer. As tension applied to the rest of the bridle doesn't pull these points in more than they should be.
My 4.2 has never shown any problems after replacing all the spars with FG ones. I've used it to buggy in as little as 3 knots so weight was not really an issue. The only difference was gust susceptability where the all-carbon versions recovered from "lows" more easily than mine. This weekend I had the 4.2 out on the water in about 30+ knots(it was quite fatal) and it flew great if not a "little too powerfull" for my liking.
Friend of mine's got a new 4.2 that had the same LE deformation and after breaking all but one carbon batten had them replaced with FG. Also had the bridle tuned out and it solved his LE(carbon fibre) deformation entirely. Another modification was adding 2mm solid CF rods in the LE camber seams(the one about 4-6 inches from the LE) which helps prevent luffing. This kite is now flying perfect... Surprisingly it even launched from the beach, lying on it's belly, LE pointing upwind(I couldn't believe it so we tried it again and again with success) Only problem with this is that it launches quite abruptly.
Ciao, -- Just fishing for angels!
Blade Review
hi.
i was at a kite shop the other day and was given the hard sell of a Blade7.2. I managed to resist, but was very tempted.
Does anyone have any reviews of information on how it flies. How does it compare to the Hi-100. I was told that the blade was just so much better, is this true?
also, what about the rumours of a 9m blade?
a.
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flexifoil "blade 4,9" - £399 kHite recently had the opportunity to fly flexis' new power kite "blade". this four line beast is an eliptical foil designed with fun in mind. "blade" is far nicer to fly than the large "skytigers", tracking quickly across the window like a 3 sq m kite rather than a 4.9 sq m kite. from launch she accelerates with gusto to the the top of the window, generating significanly greater lift than her squarer predecessors. although "blade" does pull harder than equal sized skytigers, and fly in less wind, that power is very vertical, suggesting flexi see this kite as a freestyle enhancement to thier range rather than a direct replacement for the "skytigers". the sail layout follows flexis new alternative design ethos, with the sail being made of chikara, an improved ripstop nylon. A smaller 3.9 sq m version will soon be available.
all i got,
stay popped,
ed/
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I use both blades 4,9 and 7,2 really great sails, full powered, very rigid, very stable
the 7,2 is really slow, like a big truck, but fly with very few wind
the 9m2 is annouced but i think not availlable
regards pascal
Eliminator Review
As Andy requested I've finally managed to get round to writing a small review of the Eliminator, after finishing the 4m version yesterday. Tonight I went for a test flight and am pleased to say it works really well (flying in 0-2 mph with a bit of work).
I think it best to point out that I have no race experience and have little experience of commercial kites so my views may not be what you want.
Andy first posted that he had some plans for making some quad traction kites a couple of months ago, and eventually came up with the goods at the start of August. Having made kites from various plans, starting with a couple of Sputniks and building up through the Sandz's range (including Turbo and Race) to develop my own
http://www.geocities...ite/trails/5525
I thought I'd give another set of plans a go.
Andy initially mailed me the 3m plans, and I thought to make it out of 2nds ripstop, so if it turned out to be a bag of crap then I hadn't lost out on too much. After a few e-mails to Andy to de-bug the plans and making the kite it was ready for it's first outing at Portsmouth Festival (end August). The wind was dodgy to say the least but I launched it full of trepidation. The kite climbed well through the window and settled at a really high angle of elevation, almost 90 degrees, and occasionally as a gust took it overflew to about 95 degrees, and resettled back to normal.
The pull generated by the kite suprised me, in low winds it felt as though the kite I made was 1m larger and on other flights when the wind was steadier and greater (10+ mph) the pull generated made it difficult for me to control without getting dragged about (I'm 200 lbs).
I must admit I haven't had an oppotunity to buggy with the kite yet, although this should soon change as we are just under a week from Berrow and I will post a greater review when I return.
As a final thought, I think it best to say that I built the 4m version out of Chikara just on the experiences I had with the 3m. It seemed well worth the cost.
See you at Berrow
Phil
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Having just come back from Berrow I think it right to publish my scant review of the eliminator.
I took the 3m and 4m kites to Berrow in an effort to evaluate them. The kites flew well when being flown standing still, but that wasn't the point I had come to buggy and buggy was what I was going to do.
I initially took the 3m (ripstop) out in what was admitidly lumpy winds, and it flew well. The acceleration of the buggy was great as I powered the kite up, but as it flew to the edge of the window, the kite luffed, and dropped like a stone onto the sodden beach. After taking the kite back up into the sky, and jumping into the buggy I set off again, but again disaster struck the kite luffed and landed in the biggest puddle on the beach. That was it, a walk of shame moment!!! Time to dry the kite out! The only problem being that with the weather conditions rain squalls were a common occurence and so it wouldn't be for a few days before I ventured out again as and when the conditions allowed.
A couple of days later (Wednesday) I took the 4m (Chikara) out and flew it in comparison with a 5m Predator and the 4m pulled like a train (admitidly this Predator flies like a sack of potatoes generally). Whilst buggying the wind picked quickly and it was a job to keep the kite under control. I flew the kite to the top of the window to give myself a rest and WHAM I had been pulled sideways out of the buggy and dumped unceromoniously on my back. After catching my breath I launched the kite towards the edge of the window and was immediately pulled from my feet forwards and broke my left Big Toe and damaged my left knee ligaments in the following Superman impression. That was it, no more bugggying for a while.
I managed to meet up with Andy Smith, the kite's designer, and we had a chance to talk about the eliminators and his forthcoming new foils (still in R&D). He obviously is pleased with the kites performance, as was I in my brief experiences.
As a reminder the plans are freely availible to anyone who asks
Andy
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Stacey's 2.5 was luffing in the turbulent off shore winds we had because the bridle was set a bit too high and needed a bit more brake than usual to stop it flying out. As the bridle on the 2.5 is a first generation I was still pleased with it but it was a pain when you hit 30mph and the nose goes under. Both Stacey's 2.5 and Phil's 3m need to be trimmed back a little to stop them being pushed under when the wind gets on the back of them. I had no such problems with the 2m apart from it being "poppy". The way you tell if an Eliminator is bridled correctly is to pull back on the brakes slightly when flying centre window. If it powers up then its set to high. If it slows down but retains the same power its correct. If it stops and hesitates its set too low. A further note on this design is the fact that setting the bridle a little high does not help up wind performance.
Phil, on the 3m bring the A lines in 5-7mm and the B lines in 3-4mm this should sort it out.
Phil told me that the Sandz race profile has a reverse reflex profile, as this is what we are currently investigating perhaps someone in the know would like to post details on the [Foildesign] list.
Andy
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This is for setting up of the main primary bridle which sets the angle of attack for the kite.
The way I set up the brake lines, on the foils I have come across ( quite a few ) ,is that with the kite on the floor it should "just" stay put , LE up when the handles are put on a ground stake or on full brake. the biggest fault I see with foils is that they flown with too much brake.
What tends to happen is that the kite is bought with a set of lines which are approx. the same length. They are set up and the kite is flown. After a good start the top lines which are under a lot more stress stretch, pulling the brakes on. When the kite becomes unflyable the pilot reads the instructions and adjusts the lines at the pigtails but the line keeps stretching. Believe pre stretched if you will ,we still get at least and extra 1200mm stretch. So, even when fully adjusted on the handles the brakes are still far too short. This leaves buggy newbies struggling and never knowing what an upwind tack feels like. They then require two things a site with experienced buggiers on it, and an experienced buggier who is helpful.
Andy
Harnesses
Hi Kiters! Just some thoughts on flying power kites. I was recently thinking about the fact that when flying power kites (particularly my C-Q3.2) you're not actually ment to push/pull the main flying lines atall, so what about joining them together? Or better still, make the main bridle so you only have one main flying line, and two brakes to stear with. So anyway, I tried it today. I joined the two main flying lines together to the hook on my harness (with a safety release!), and the two break lines to arm loops. It's a bit more difficult to launch without the push-pull control of the top lines, and the control is more difficult because you've got to use very careful control to go between fully breaked and too loose. I think though that with a bit of practice it could be quite workable. IMO it could be the answer for kitesurfers wishing to have the versatility/power of 4 lines without the difficulty of the 4 lines to control... And for buggiers likewise. Try it and let me know what you think! And aswell about the idea of only one top line.
Best winds,
-Robin-
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Hi Kiters!
I've never tried this, but I kind of think it will work.
Making a bar looking something like the ASCII crap art below, I think it should be possible to steer a C-Quad with it.
Point a - attatchment of the left brake line
Point b - attatchment of the left front line
Point c - attatchment of the right front line
Point d - attatchment of the right brake line
b c
------------------
/ \
a / \ d
/ \Your idea of joining the main lines (front lines) could be solved by ......
Point a - attatchment of the left brake line
Point b - attatchment of both front lines
Point c - attatchment of the right brake line
b
------------------
/ \
a / \ c
/ \Just my thoughts!
Any comments anyone?
SvenA
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Hi Sven, Don Moantague has been using the method described in the previous post for some time now to steer control pitch of the Naish surf kites, and I'm fairly sure this method and yours are the way to go for kite surfing. The Naish kite is actually designed to flown quaded, Don says they only put the Wipika style bridle on in to make it easier for windsurfers and beginners to get out on the water quicker. The method for Naish kites is very simple, make up 4 lines the length you prefer, but make the lines you will use for the top about 1-2 cm shorter. Naish and Wipika control bars have leader lines from the bar to the spectra flying lines about 4M long. Drill a 4mm hole in your control bar exactly in the middle, using 3mm spectra core sheathed cord the same length as the leader lines and include a loop about 10cm diameter on the harness side of the bar, this loop attaches to your harness as well as the standard harness loop. Your bottom lines attach to each side of your control bar and you steer the kite using the brake lines, controlling the pitch and power with toward you away from you pushing on the control bar. I have not done this to my Naish kites yet as I have been busy and recovering from a wonderful Festival of the Winds in windy Sydney Australia. Tomorrow though is looking quieter and I plan to modify the 7M first, will keep you all posted, dinner is now served and,
Goodwinds Steve McCormack
Control Bar
I contemplate of buying a C-quad somewhere in the future.
Along with it comes the agonizing choice between "classic" 4 line handles, or this new nifty control bar that resembles a bicycle steer.
The latter option seems to have the advantage of a more relaxed way of control, and one hand operation (when used with harness).
Is it any good? TIA!
While I am at it - I am used to the utter undestructability of my Nasa's. What should I alter / order along with this C-quad to make it survive my first trials (3.2 size)
TIA some more!
Best Regards, René Zuidema
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For flysurfing/kitesurfing, yes!!!.... don't bother to use it on the buggy. It's a great aid to waterstart as you have a free hand to do other things.
Replace the Carbon battens and LE with fiberglass if you can and use the noodles when on the water... they help a lot. Keep the carbon ones you might like to use them later but I don't even bother as I've seen too many broken.
Ciao, -- Just fishing for angels!
360 Spin
Does any one have any tips on how to do a 360 degree spin i can do 180's but cant get the buggy the whole way round
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It's the set up. It helps to have the handles free from the harness so you can pull them across your chest, turn towards the kite, after you pass the 180 reverse turn, continue on around. When you figure out how to do it, you'll be able to do it fairly slow, it's just a left/right, flic flac kind of thang. . .
aoxomoxoa
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Most informative, Dean. Turn left then right. 8-))
Lets expand on this a little.
Since you have 180's down, I'll touch this very briefly for those that may want to know the whole process. *Also, remember that this is the process I went through and may not always apply.*
1. Learn to go backwards. A stable backwards track not only helps with tricks but also when in those "kite behind your head" situations.
2. Frontside 180's. Traveling at speed turn sharply towards the kite, slide out the back by shifting hips toward slide and shoulders away. Recover traveling backwards. Repeat!
3. Backwards Backside 180's. Traveling backwards at speed turn sharply away from kite, slide frontend around and travel forwards. Practice recovering to a straight track. Repeat!
4. Frontside 360's. Combine moves 2 & 3. Frontside 180 to reverse, then backside 180 to forward. Stabilize and recover between moves. Shorten the time between each 180. Once you feel comfortable with this eliminate the delay. The important thing is to lean back and transfer weight to the rear axle during the backside 180. If you have a seat back this makes it difficult. Try the new Lynn seat or my personal choice, Libre buggy, is a half seatback that provides for lower back support and upper body movement. Repeat!
5. Backside 360's. Handles overhead, turn away from kite, slide out back, lean back, pull handles toward chest, turn towards kite and slide front around to forward using momentum. This is a faster 360 than the frontside. Try it! Feels strange at first but much more satisfying.
//bison\\
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Hiya, Then you can always do it the way kiwi's do. Find a tideflat/flat compacted beach just after the tide has gone out in an unhealthy amount of wind. Do a good run-up and just kick the steering to kiteside while flying the kite to the top, once the buggy starts traveling backwards kick the steering kiteside again... spin, spin, spin, spin, and sometimes wipeout! I think the current record is about 6 or 7 consecutive 360°'s and a gazillion muddy wipeouts. ;-)<muddy grin>
Ciao,
P.S. wet grass works as good!(just watch out for those goalposts) ;-)
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Yeah, i forgot. I learned to go backwards from the begining. Here's why. I'd only buggied for a couple of times and thought i was getting kind of good at it, then i spent the day at the beach with this older guy from en zed who repeatedly passed me on any tack with any kite all day long, all the while going backwards. It was quite annoying, so every single time i went buggying from then on, i practiced going backwards. it really helps you out of a jam 'cause you don't freak out when you see stuff going away instead of coming at you!
Thanks Richard, i saved the stuff you wrote so i can go look at it the next time i go. I've never verbalized it before, and still can't figure out why sometimes it is easy for me to do 360's and sometimes it's not.
Oh, that old guy, his name is Lynn, and he's BALD, and MEAN, just plain, get up your nose mean. But, i did learn a lot from him, i guess. oh and he's a sore loser too! Just damn hard to beat!
aoxomoxoa
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G'day Richard, Dean an' All,
I really enjoyed Richard's original explanation. It was very well written and very useful. I can vouch for the usefulness of the 180 stabilise 180 method. I tried it after a much earlier comment by Richard on this egroup and it has really made a difference. I also agree with what Dean said about "feel". This is why it is important to practice the trick over and over. It is the same with two wheeling. After slogging it out, you eventually pass some kind of threshold of "body memory" which allows you to replicate the trick, and do it smoothly whenever you want. To prove this to myself, I tried two wheeling without a kite on a grass hill (when grass buggying with the kids) and found that it was not a problem - it is the movements of your body that make the most difference.
On the other side of the coin, concerning kite orientation, reverse buggying is a good technique - as Dean mentioned. Once you can buggy straight, you can try reverse gybes and tacks. You will find that with the exception of the buggy speed and follow-through issue, reverse tacking is easier in terms of kite orientation because the kite stays in front of you (as with the conventional forwards gybe)! Reverse gybes are harder because the kite ends up behind you! Another good technique for improving kite orientation is sailing tight circles (continuous Tack/Gybe sequence). Once you can tack o.k., you can try this(preferably on a fairly smooth, fast surface). The idea is to start the circle off by tacking and then continue around into a gybe, then back up into a tack etc. You will need to learn when to dip the kite into the power (just before going into the gybe) and when to bring it to the top of the window ( as you turn upwind into the tack). You learn to smoothly work the position of the kite and consequently, because of the need for smoothness and the repetition, you will end up being more comfortable with moving the kite into more difficult positions in relation to the buggy. Each time, try this for four or so turns and then reverse it before you get too dizzy. Kite position is crucial and the more you do this the better the feel you develop. It is also a good practice in terms of the maintainance of buggy speed.
As far as my 360s go, they are still mostly a bit messy on the final 90deg or so but I'm still working on it!
Paul
FoilMaker
Hiya, AHA!!! That's the million dollar question.
Well firstly forget every supercritical, supersonic and remotely funny looking foil. Low Reynolds number foils are generally preferable though many of the general purpose foils are sufficient. This already get's rid of more than half of those listed in the database.
You can also ignore foils with max. thickness before 10% and after 30%. On average max. thickness should be roughly between 15% and (rather closer to)25%. Forget about thickness for the time being as that can easily be modified. Then you have to decide whether you prefer reflex(thickness is distributed to the bottom of the chord near the TE causing negative lift to be generated) or not. Other factors to look at is nose radius(sharp wedge noses aren't all that good), center of pressure, center of moment and center of lift. Preferably look for clean lines on low Rn foils, sharp concaves or convex curves(usually near the TE areas of high lift foils) only work on huge scales(chordlines of over 5m).
Then look at what other folk prefer to use and compare them. Most folk in this group have webpages describing their design and it's attributes....
I hope this is as simple a description without getting overly technical.
There is another site with lots of figures and theory by Martin Hepperle(unfortunately I don't have the shortcut on me at this moment) and there's lots more to be read out there. Try http://63.71.143.189/ for a start.....
Ciao,
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Hiya, The last site I listed is that of Gene(Matocha not me ;-), uses Sput4 and mods, FX63-137 and ClarkY and it's variants), others to look at is that of Henry Kulk(uses MH foils) and Emiel Stroeve(MH and Sput4). The MH9X range of foils all have reflex(creating neg. lift in the TE area for stability). These foils are similar to that used in QComp's, JoJo's and Flexifoils) Though the Sput4 foil is easy to implement being symmetrical it is not the best choice anymore. I usually stic to CLARKY, Eppler, Wortman and Gottingen foils though I'm always willing to try something new including tracing the outline of my shoe. ;-)
Average thickness's range from 15% to 20%. I myself work in the 16% to 18%(with single skins I might go as high as 19%) depending on the foil being used. In general a thinner foil results in a faster kite. A faster flying foil generates more power and flies more efficient to the edge of the window. The side effects of this being instability, problems with inflation leading to collapse under certian conditions, banana'ing and susceptibility to cause problems in gusts. Thicker foils have less of a tendancy to collapse(higher internal presure) in gusty conditions/turns/edge flight and overall smoother flight. There are however foils that while thicker still performs very well, this is the ultimate challenge we strive for.
It just so happens that the Kitesurf e-group has a higher demographic of sporty types and salespersons more concerned with the brands and how to use them rather than their technical aspects and how they work(or how to make them). It just so happens the the foil deigners/makers express their knowledge here where the "atmosphere" is more friendly to respond with knowledgable answers.
Ciao,
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This last point is one that I have clung too for a while now and is the main reason I try to design my own aerofoils. Most low Re. aerofoils are designed for model aircraft which do not have inflatable wings and are able to keep more subtle curves under control. For a mild example of what to avoid, look at the place-holder aerofoil on my kite on Chris' site http://www.zip.com.a...sb/buggy/design . This aerofoil is there because it is the only one I could get to work in my early stages of using FM. I am still wrestling with aerofoil files but hope to have my own aerofoil in the plan soon. Secondly, I think it is important with parafoils to use aerofoils that produce good lift co-efficients at lower and middle airspeeds (kitespeed) because it is a pain to have to fly one's kite at top speed in figure 8s without brake to get the most out of it (If you want oodles of L/D with good Cl - fly a hybrid:-). Some aerofoils also hate having brake on and this makes brakes useless for more power at lower speed. The issue at stake here is the AMOUNT of camber an aerofoil has. An aerofoil like the MH93 has a camber of 1.6% when left at the original 16% thickness. This is not a lot of camber and combined with the reflex makes this aerofoil a good one for top speed and higher L/D but not for lower speeds and braked flight regimes. Perhaps good allround aerofoils have a max camber of around the 3-6% range? Concerning thickness and its relation to the amount of camber, it might be better to use a thinner foil with more camber than a radically thickened low camber aerofoil (remembering that as we thicken a foil, the percentage of camber increases and the reason for the original shape diminishes...). (Gene has addressed the question of the position of max chord well.) Some stray thoughts, anyway...
Paul
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Hiya,
Q: What's wrong with the S6062 you're using already? All I don't like about it is the last 5% of the upper TE. Though it aids the reflex it might just be the cause of some banana'ing on smaller versions(as you mentioned...)
This is the problem. The TE is very thin because of the slightly concave TE undersurface and the very slight TE reflex. "Inflationally" ;-), this is not good - banana (it is a 3.6) and TE "coalsacks". I actually don't mind the rest, although the point of max chord is a smidge too far back for what I am after for the kite. I think the 'foil I am preparing will do a better job.:-)
Paul
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Hiya, Then what do you think about the MH3x and especially the MH6x series. Again they have fairly thin LE's but I had an urge to chop the last 5% of all of them. Thicker versions of those are quite consistent with some schematics of a lot of Paragliders I've seen recently. The MH6x series have apparently high Cl for faily low Rn's. I just don't see the reason for the concave +X cambers past the max. chord points.
By now you can probably tell I'm not a really big fan of reflex foils ;-) They do provide flight stability at min. AOA, but is it really nescesary for quadliners where brakelines help do the same?
Ciao,
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I am flying modell-airplanes for 20 years ago. And i`ve build about 30 modells with profiles from Martin Hepperle and M. Selig. Most use profile was the MH32, MH42, MH45,MH64, and Selig 7032. I´ve got about 300 Profiles in my PC for airmodell building. But it is unbeliveable for me that i can build a traktion-kite with one of that profiles. All of the named profile are use for highspeedmodells or flying wings. But after all, did anyone of you have build a traktion-kite with one of these profile in reality????? And the second question is, what profil did you use. I think the older profiles like GÖ,FX, Eppler are not so got, because nobody in the airmodell scene use these profile anymore.
Bye Dirk
DIVIDERDIVIDERDIVIDER
G'day,
Concerning the older profiles, I think that many could be suitable for traction foils because they have not been optimised for precise modern model building techniques and are more tolerant of imprecise building. I know that some of the newer aerofoils have been designed with refined composite building techniques in mind (e.g. very thin trailing edges). Given that fabric and stick and fabric creations have little hope of such precision, then the older profiles can be a little more friendly. The above is the main reason that I am suspicious about some of the newer low Re. profiles. Concerning the argument about the "high speed" of models, I think this is less of a ground for suspicion because, firstly many traction kites are probably capable of speeds a bit faster than 100kmh (when flying with high wing loading) and good kites would tend to normally operate (i.e. with middle range wingloadings) at speeds around 60-70kmh (I believe). Now I think that these speeds would be familiar to thermal duration RC sailplane pilots. I realize that many powered models can go a great deal faster, but the sections that are of most relevance here are the RC soaring ones which tend to be designed to produce good Cl over a wide speed range as well as good L/D moderate speeds. They are not usually designed for rocket speeds! (Slope/ pylon and some F3B sailplanes excepted) :-) Also to be considered is that although models speeds still might be generally higher, models have smaller chord wings and for this reason we can't necessarily assume that the higher speeds entail higher Re. numbers.
Anyway, my point in wading through the above is to say that I think one of the main problems in terms of the transposition of model profiles to traction kites might not be so much the question of operating airspeeds and putative Re differences as a question of structural/shaping and material differences (even if the former is more significant than I have made out (and as I think more, it could be..), I still think the latter is the most significant). Rag wings require specific concessions in terms of airfoil shape because of their method of acheiving structural form (i.e. inflation/billow). This does not even introduce the question of stability...Anyway, this is one reason why I design my own aerofoils.
Some idle thoughts from an idle thinker...
Paul
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G'day Dave and All,
I remember you mentioned this to me a while ago. I've designed a kite in FM which has these paraglider style tips. The reason I have used them is to help smooth skin shape, reduce tip votices and give good directional stability - I want a new kite that doesn't do a double act as a stunt kite. The final reason for the tips is that I have been thinking about trying the brake system you mention. Foilmaker doesn't accomodate lateral tow point movement in its current version so we can put this on our wish list. :-)
Yes, lower AR tends to make kites more docile, but the Jojo doesn't have a *very* high AR from the specs I've read. I think a careful choice of aerofoil would be of great benefit here. Keep your eye on the design section of Chris' site: http://www.zip.com.au/~chrisb/buggy/ We've worked on a tentative list and categorisation of aerofoils for traction parafoil use. They are not up yet because he insists on wasting his time making buggy seatbelts and going buggying on the weekend! (Hope we get a SSE wind like today for tommorow, 'eh Chris) ;-) Seriously, he is doing a great job and this will be a very handy site as more people start to use foilmaker. BTW the kite I mentioned above is on the site at the moment (as a FM file) . It is an earlier version of the design I am working on but gives you an idea.
Paul
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Everything fit together well, but sewing all those layers in alignment was tough. Since I'm new at this, had lots of questions. Is it best to make sub-assemblies and then sew those together or to make a single seam? For instance: on a bottom seam at a rib that has diagonals, you have two skins, two diagonals and the rib. That's five layers. Is it ok to just join the rib and the diagonals, and then the skins? I was worried about weakening the materials by sewing twice along the same line.
Ended up not using the valves. I couldn't quite figure out the positioning and seam allowances. Should the valves be attached on one or three sides? Should they be "hinged" from the top? The pattern gave single seam allowance on the sides, but double on the top and bottom. Help!
I did have to rip out and resew where the diagonal rib attached to the top skin. I had sewn it along the wrong line down the center of the upper skin.
FWIW in this test foil I had checked the "No profile at wingtip" box. I wanted to see how the transition would be from a rib to a flat line. On the sewing table it looks good! Guess it's time to get out the Visa and buy some Icarex!
Art
DIVIDERDIVIDERDIVIDER
I use 6mm double-sided sticky tape to assemble all 5 layers, then stitch the whole lot together in one go.
The valve is attached on three sides. The double seam allowance at the bottom is just for sewing a hem on it to stop it from fraying. Time for some crapscii :-
Upper Skin
------------------------------\ Lower skin
/----- | /-------------------
/ /---- | | ----\ /---------
| | ----/ Gauze \---- | |
\ \--------------------------------/ |
\----------------------------------/
ValveRemember that because the valve is sewn on three sides, it can only open because of the billow caused by the valve taper angle - make sure you have enough taper.
Easily done. Maybe I ought to make one of the lines dotted or something.
Go for it!!!
Peter.
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G'day Art,
Yes, I guess this is one of the disadvantages of the individual panel shaping technique. It offers the best shaping potential, but it makes for a lot of hard work. Interestingly, Peter Lynn avoids this hassle with his N'gen by laying out the skin panels in the (apparently, but not quite) same way as the C-Quad. 3 or 4 long slices of fabric along the span (rather than 30 or so along the length) are easier to sew together. It obviates the need for taping or double sewing. This would be a good option (to complement the superior individual panel method) for a future revision of FM. I think that it is more suitable for flatter kites but saves tonnes of work whilst still giving good skin shape (just look at a photo of an N'gen).
Paul
(Art, how's the hybrid project going, BTW?)
Advice Needed
I have been reading for a while. I am very new to the sport. Bought a PL Comp, Skytiger 40, Q2003 and just to make it interesting 3.2CQuad.
I am doing pretty well at this point. Had a few really great days at Berkley with about 10-15 MPH and mixing different kites to get the feel. So much for the Bio.
My questions are this...I don't mean to interupt the software dialog but I have questions dealing with "How to".
What is the best method to keep the kite in the power zone? It seems to want to go to the edge and de-power.
What is the best up wind method? My windsurf background never had a moving wind window.
Best line length? Does the wind strength have anything to do with it?
And finally...is this the proper forum for questions? because I have more. Like, how does the C-quad work...?
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Hi Mike,
For a start U can read a book called Stuntkites 2 from Nop Velthuizen and Servaas van der Horst. Many things are explained in this book . When you start you have to move the kite up and downwards, each turn in the direction of the buggy direction. When you build up speed you will have to do less movement with the kite and eventually park the kite. When you have a 4 liner: try to pull a little bit on the brake-lines, most kites generate more power then.
I don't know what's the best, a kite with good upwind performance is so much easier then others but my method is: After the turn I buggy a little while half wind (to build up some speed) and then move upwind.
Depends of what kite with what windspeed. When you have not enough kites, you can use shorter lines with the same kite when the wind strenght is stronger In very low winds you will have to use large kites with very long lines.
I know, (have 4 of them) but it's a story on it's own. I will drop a line when I feel to.
greets,
Gerrit
Kitebike
G'day All,
I took delivery of my new Peter Lynn kitebike today. Some of you may remember me raving about having ordered one. I had a quick run at the beach today. It took me a bit more than 30mins before I stopped falling over and had a decent run. Until this point I was a bit pessimistic and thought that it would take forever to learn, that the skeptics were right, and that the best I might do in the session was have a run of about 20meters before falling over. Well, I must report that the pessimism was unfounded because at the end of my two hour session (which was longer than planned, but I was having so much fun...), I was kitebiking almost as if it were second nature. I even managed some tacks and some 5m diameter tack/gybe/tack/gybe... sequences! :-)))
Kitebiking offers some amazing sensations. You lean against the kite and can carve turns. This is buggying with the third dimension present and it resembles the feel of rollerkiting and kitesurfing in this regard. I was surprised at just how slow it was possible to go without falling over (slow walking pace and brief pauses). I was also taken with how tightly it is possible to turn the buggy. Things can be a bit shaky at these speeds, but once the speed increases, gyroscopic stability does and things are smoother. Peter Lynn have done a good job with their two wheel kit which fits onto a standard PL Comp front end and uses a Deluxe seat. It doesn't cost a lot to buy the kit either...
I am absolutely taken with Kitebiking! It is difficult to start with, and I don't know how others will take to it, but for those who like to try new things with kites and have good buggy skills, it should not be missed! Kitebiking is not a replacement for three wheeled buggying, though. Three wheels make freestyle tricks like flat spins, and, two wheeling possible ;-)
Paul
BTW: Everyone who knows about their existence (not a large group, to be sure) calls Kitebikes "two wheel buggies". I think "Kitebike" sounds much better and so encourage people to use this term in preference...:-)
Surf Expo
Yes, i know this is about water kites, but knowing that we have keen minds here, i thought you might like to know about some of the new kites.
Flexi's kite. High AR with leading edge tube and struts wipika style, and flown reletivly flat. Sort of a blade with single surface skin using tubes to water relaunch. Quad.
F-1. this kite is just plain strange IMHO. Looks like one of those blow up lawn mattress you pull behind a boat. Inflatable foil, but curved leading edge, sort of large C but not quite as curved back as a C-Quad, but pretty radical. The tips then curve down but do not taper off at all. They are fat and pudgy. couldn't get a look at the single LE opening (lots of secrets at this show, as though they won't be for sale at some point! more unnessasary BS) Quad or dual line. Rapheal does not like quad, and most of the new water guys don't either. (oh well, they will learn)
I picked up two new Quadrifoil water kites called the kitesurfer. They are the same as the X series, just valved and sealed, solid LE with four small openings, with a neat velcro valve with sealed bottom to let air and water out when you are done. Will report how they work soon.
There were lots of wipika knock offs, all developed in high wind areas of the world.
One thing, this sport is going to be huge. Hopefully it will help all of kiting, but time will tell.
I couldn't take pictures, Joost just about had a fit when i brought my camera in his booth! He'd take the kite down every night and carry it around with him so no one could get a better look at it, and they kept it displayed in a booth with walls, so you had to go inside to get a look. don't know how they will keep people from seeing them if they ever sell any!
Most of the new kite people were pretty nice, but they all think they know what's what, even though they haven't flown kites for much more than a year. Only Naish's designer told me "I don't know anything yet." showing an open mind and willingness to learn. He'll do well i think.
Also of interest is the new magazine by World Publications, called Kite Boarding. Super slick with beautiful full color photos, and lots of big names. Jason Furness, Andy Preston, plus all the new guys from the sport are in there. The biggest debate seems to be on whether to use a control bar or handles.
okay, got to run, ask questions if you like.
aoxomoxoa
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Hiya, Flexifoil would probably have been wise to agree to a patent royalty contract. It's quite a simple but safe product since I can't think of that many copy-kiters willing to try and make their own inflatable bladders not to mention something that inflates to the required 3D shape. I have spent quite a few sleeples nights(sometimes I think to much) pondering how to achieve the same results and there's no better way of creating a 3D shaped frame of this structural capability that's impossilble to submerge(or I've yet got to see it).
Being an avid buggier not familiar with anything other than handles and backstraps I too was sceptic about using bars(there's just no use for them on a buggy) But alas God has granted us prehensile use of only two of our limbs and I just love using a bar now. The biggest benefit is waterstarts where you can fly the kite with only one hand and you usually need the other to hold on to your board(especially in the chop). Don't get me wrong though I still believe you get better performance from a quadline kite when using good ol'quadline handles. You just don't feel "in touch" with your kite otherwise. I just need more practice getting on to the board with them. Argh... sometimes you just want to drop your quadline kite in the nearest dustbin because of all the problems inherent with those extra two lines... on the other hand I could thank my lucky stars that I was able to relaunch using them.
I had a good laugh a few postings back on the [kitesurf} group when a fella enquired about being able to improve the perfomance of a dualline kite. His problems involved the kite falling back downwind in gusts and he could not be convinced about the limitations of a dualline kite. All I wanted to do the whole time while reading this squable was: "Get a quadline dude... a C-quad will solve all that"
Ciao,
===================================================================
Does anyone know if Wipika is actually bothering to pursue, there somewhat dubious, patent claims? Seems that everyone has sort of gone for the inflatable leading edges/ spars. I guess if everyone does it at once it makes it very hard for Wipika to presume them all... == Naish pays royalties to Wipika designers and they codeveloped software to design more "ballon" kites... I dont know about the others, like Seasmik and Flexifoil
And so the cycle continues. I must admit that I still fly my dual line Sputnik, and I enjoy it. I'm sure once they start flying kite that benefit from brakes they'll switch. Now if we can get them off of those bar things
=== I kitesurf and kitebuggy so i think i can comment on this.... and i would like to hear some opinions about this from "experienced" kitebuggyers
When on a buggy I prefer handles - more control of the kite and this is good since the buggy does not have as much control as a surfboard (you can slide the surfboard around very easily) - but when i switch to the surfboard i MUCH prefer a bar - it gives me more length difference in the lines and allows me to be more concentrated on the surfing and waves rather than on the kite - this does not mean i dont use 4 lines - i sometimes use 4 lines but on a bar. I have tried to use handles but in big waves - larger than 4-5 feet faces with overpowering wind- the handles need too much strength to hold onto while i am trying to grab the board and get back on and getting tumbled in white water - My impression is that the people using handles for kitesurfing are not doing so in big waves.
question is - is somebody using handle to surf big waves or not ?
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Yes I know Naish has licensed the stuff. I was more wondering about the other knock offs that Dean mentioned
I should have explained this better I guess. I buggy I haven't kite surfed, I have no business making comments on something I know little about
I've flown on a bar a few times and hated it, its very unresponsive. I do understand though that have a free hand is pretty important if you kite surfing. I'm not sure I understand the comment that a bar give you greater line difference. As I sit here the totally distance between my hands with my arms outstretched is about 2m... I haven't seen many people with bars that long. Plus I think you get much better feel out of handles.Jason Furness, i've seen video of him in waves but not huge ones. Kane Hartnell (sp) there's some video of him at http://www.y2k.co.nz in some waves using a CQuad with back strap + handles
Chris
US Buggy Associations
Does anyone know of any kite buggy associations on the Eastern shores of the US.
I know there's the NW buggy association, but is there anything that caters for us folk on this side of the US? If not, shouldn't we organise one?
There's the British Buggy Club, what other worldwide buggy clubs are there?
Jo
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There's Kites over New England - not a buggy specific club but it has quite a few buggiers. They cover all of New England, but they are centered around Boston. We have a small group in Maine that I guess you could call a club... we don't have a name or anything, we just buggy together frequently. Where in the East are you?
Mark Frasier
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we have a group of 4 of us that belong to the Maryland Kite Society and we buggy out in Howard County, MD most week ends.
It would be nice if we could arrange some sort of special East Coast buggy thingie.
Jo
===================================================================
There's an event called the Great East Coast Buggy Rally on the 16th & 17th in Hull, Mass. Last year was the first year. The folks that organized it got Quadrifoil & Jeff Howard to come out for it. Nice T-shirts for sale, too! I'd guess there were 20+ people buggying there on the day I went. Not sure who's going to be there this year, but the beach is nice if the wind is right. Is that too far North for you guys/gals? According to Mapquest it's about 8 hours from Edgemere or Baltimore.
Mark Frasier
Washing foils
hiya guys and gal's
well, it's getting to be winter in the UK and the flying and beginning to get damp and muddy and my ekko quad foil is showing signs of dirt in places. I'm wondering how I clean it. can I simply stick it in the washing machine at 40 degrees C and hang out to dry? what about the bridle lines? I wouldn't want them to get sucked out through a hole in the drum. should I stick it in a bag perhaps (I was thinking of an old duvet cover). thoughts anyone?
many thanks
dave
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Hi David,
Thanks to a large population of Canada Geese at our local field, my kites have some nasty smudges, too. (to say nothing of dogs...) I haven't dared put my foils in the washing machine, the potential for macraméd bridles scares me. To say nothing about starting with a 3.5 m^2 kite and ending up with a 2.5 m^2 foil. :>*
I spread the kite out and use a damp cloth and gently clean it one spot at a time.
Next time I'll by a camouflaged kite! <g>
Steve
===================================================================
David, We wash our foils with a product called Resolve.... you can layout the foil on the floor and just spray the foil with the Resolve and then just wipe the material with a cloth or sponge that is also soaked with the resolve.... then just let it all dry out before you fold the foil for storage..... works great...
===================================================================
Sounded like a good idea at the time. Washing machine would very likely destroy your foil, ripping out seams etc.. you can also destroy the coating of the fabric, which will make the kite very stretchy. If you use solvents, choose carefully, many such as acetone and Xylene will remove the coating.
For oil spots, I use rubber cement thinner. it's not perfect, oil really likes nylon (brother hydrocarbon), but the coating is happier and you can get most of the oil off. use rags on both sides. the oil won't come out if you're rubbing the wrong side.
for general washing, you might try the Italian wine-making thing. put the kite in the bathtub with some mild soap and warm water, and gently tread on it. don't try to lift the kite out, the weight of the water may be too much for the seams. let it drain, then hang it so the seams don't bear too much weight.
if the dirty kite still offends, fly on longer lines.
Good luck, paisano,
Stan
===================================================================
I have just got back from Berrow 99 with a huge pile of wet soggy muddy kites. I tend to hang the foils on teh washing line and then blast then with the hose pipe. This means I can blast the sand out of the end of the cells. It works.
Andy
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Hi David, I have always hung my foils on the clothes line and removed any oils spots by hand with the product that panel beaters use to remove silicone waxes, sorry can't think of the name. I hang the foil from the trailing edge using pegs and I leave the lines attached and use the hose on medium pressure to flush each cell of crud, have a coffee and let it drip dry for a while and then take it indoors and hang it over a clothes airer or two. Warning do not leave foil unattended on one of those rotary clothes lines in windy conditions, as you can imagine what happened - once!
And Goodwinds
Steve McCormack
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Dave
Why not lob it in the bath and scrub it gently with a sponge. Use warm (not hot) water, natural soap flakes then wrinse it under the shower. You'll get most of the mud off this way.
Regards James
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check your instruction as most makers suggest handwashing only(flexifoil) and then air-drying.post your results if you try it as I have some grubby foils just back from fuertaventura.
good luck tony
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I use a damp chamois (piece of treated hide used for drying cars etc) on my foil. Takes off quite a bit of the muck painlessly and works for the minor dirt sessions. For those times that I have gone swimming in salt water after the kite, I just hang it up on a wash line / wall and hose it down. No soaps, detergents or anything. Gets most of the junk off and keeps my wax coating in place
regards
Ian
===================================================================
when flying recently at Lytham my 2.8 jet(superb foil by Jim Rowlands)picked up some excrement(not what I called it at the time) and this was removed quickly and safeley using baby bottem wipes--available in sealed tubs so you can keep the moist in the car Yuch
tony
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I wash Cliff's Quadrafoils in the bathtub. I use a very light solution of Kirby carpet shampoo. It has scotch guard built into it and it does a great job of cleaning. I rinse it off and hang it over the shower bar to dry or on the cloths line if the breeze is light.
The key is to use little of the shampoo so it rinses clean. Gets most everything out and it is cheap. Works good on banners too.
Collette
Flexifoils
Can two 8' flexifoils do a good job pulling a buggy? Are they easy to stack?
I have never flown a flexifoil and do not know of their abilities...
Are they as easy to fly as a foil? How do they differ?
Mike Crimmins
===================================================================
Hiya, Yes, they are easy to stack with stacking lines of at least the same length and no less than 3/4 of the length of the leading edge or the leading edge of the biggest kite in the stack. They are also easy to fly with incredible speed and also very low maintenance to the point of almost being foolproof. The 6ft is one of the fastest kites in the world easily doing in excess of 120kph as well as being one of the easier dualline foils to relaunch. The Proteam(8ft) retains some of the speed while being 2 as powerfull. The Super10 is more than 3 times as powerfull but hard to learn to fly as a first kite as it's slower and also slower to respond.
In a good amount of wind it will pull you along though there are a few problems inherent to the dynamics of this foil. If you were familiar with it then it would be a good introduction to the basic techniques of buggying because of it's simplistic flight behaviour. I know of a few folk buggying with 4/5 stacked Super10's being able to return to their starting point with some level of success.
If you get to fly it you'll notice that it has no pull from about 75° and upwards/sideways from the downwind position. This means that you will have trouble going upwind. This is quite an important skill you'd want to learn as your experience progresses and will allow you to return to your starting point no matter where you are heading off to.
Next you'll notice that this kite's power is derived from it's flightspeed. Thus it doesn't pull much or at all when stalled or "hanging" in one position. Only means to overcome this is by increasing the airspeed over the kite which relates to the apparent windspeed as you are traveling at reasonably the same speed across wind as the kite would need to generate it's power. Else you'll find that you overrun the kite with the buggy as soon as you start heading upwind. The only other way is with some vigorous wrist magic flying the kite in loop/figure 8/ or sine wave patterns.
Point to note is that the behaviour of this foil changes tremendously as the windspeed increases making upwind runs more possible though they get "slightly" out of hand at the windspeeds where this occurs.
Ciao,
Launch a CQuad
Hello,
I just bought a 3.2 m2 C-quad but I'm unable to launch it by myself.
It's my first 4-liner.
I tried it with some sand on the trailing edge and the kite on its back. When I pull gently on the lines, the kite starts to rise a bit, but then it folds and collapses.
I got it airborne with the help of a person passing on the beach.
When airborne, it flies quite good although I still have the impression that my brake lines are to short (all 4 lines are 22.5 meters).
Any suggestions?
Regards, Victor
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when on my own i use a corkscrew dogstake, hook the break lines round it with the kite & lines all lay'd out and then go stand the kite up completely.. the stake is just enough to hold it while i walk back and pick up the handles.
if out with the buggy, i do the same thing but use the rear wheel of the buggy instead of a stake
===================================================================
I lay the kite sideway's (the LE to the left or right) and make sure that all the lines and bridle are on top of the kite. Then I pull on the lines that are the shortest and rise the kite that way. Most of the time it rises with the nose down but that's no problem just pull the brake lines and the kites fly's backward's and then release one brakeline so that the kite turns. When you are landing the kite make sure that it lay's side ways so you can start it the next time the same way.
Regards Bram
===================================================================
pull the right lines until the right wingtip is facing you pull gently on the left and the windtip should rize a little and get some air works it a bit from there to launch
if you prefer the other side thats fine too......I'm lefthanded
Bearing Maintenance
Hello,
Has anybody a good product to clean the bearings of the buggy or it it better to do notting with them. Can you use petrol,..ect. I normaly drive on sand and true saltwater.
Hints also welcom.
Thanks for the information.
===================================================================
Some tips on keeping your bearings from freezing up:
1. Don't wash off your buggy bearings with a garden hose. I couldn't figure out why my bearings were getting bad in such a short time. I then relized that I had started washing off my buggy and in particular spraying the bearings off. Once I stopped this, I found that bearings lasted much longer. I usually just brush the buggy off and spray in down once in a while.
2. Don't use WD-40 or other solvent based lubricants. Use Duralube, Slick 50, etc. and spray your bearings at the end of each session. I have a Lynn buggy that I use mainly for playing in the water. Normally, one time in the water and the bearings are toast. I started spraying them with Duralube and have been in ther water several times with the same set. It seems to soak in and reduces corrosion.
3. Apply a liberal amount of grease to both sides of the bearing before putting them in the wheel. Although this does attract sand it aids the seal and prevents moisture from entering in the first place. Especially from the inside when water tends to sit inside the wheel hub.
4. This might be the ultimate solution. Purchase sealed bearings that have not been packed and seals not inserted. (If you know where I can get them let me know!) OR keep the old dead bearings and pop out the seal from the inside, so as not to damage the soft edge and save them. Pop both seals out of a new bearing, throw away the bad new one and use the good old one. (IF you know a way to get the seal out without damage let me know!) Wash out the grease from the new bearing with solvent. Either way now you have a dry bearing with two good seals. Purchase Marine Grease (it's blue and very sticky) pack the bearing with this. Insure the grease fills the little groove on the out side race. Pop the seals in, you should see the grease sqeeze out around the edges of the seal. This should create a good seal and reject salt water.
5. Get in good with your local bearing wholesaler! 8-))
Maybe others, on this list, can offer ideas on increasing the longevity of buggy bearings. I know I'm getting tired of buying bearings 2 or 3 times during the summer.
//bison\\
Speedometer
What is an inexpensive speedometer to mount on a buggy? And how does one go about mounting it? I've heard of people using a bicycle speedometer, buy I don't know the best way?
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What is an inexpensive speedometer to mount on a buggy? And how does one go about mounting it? I've heard of people using a bicycle speedometer, buy I don't know the best way? >>
To Which I laughingly respond...
My experience is the Avocet 25 cyclocomputer fulfills all your needs. It is amde in America, sells for $25 regularly, is programmable for our wheel sizes, has all the functions you need, and is quite rugged.
I mount the read head around a piece of 1 inch pvc which is ziptied to my downtube. Works great.
BTW... the calibration number is 1224
Good Riding.
aoxo coreykite@aol.com
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if you've got your mind set on a speedo for your buggy then i won't change it for you. But I will say that i have a hand held gps reciever (GARMIN 12XL size of a mobile phone) Which not only tells you present speed but also tells you max speed reached, and also tells you where you are if you ever lose youre way. I don't know the price of a bike speedo but the G.P.S is £100 new. second hand £70-£50 Tight lines NEV
===================================================================
mount the magnet as close to the axle as you can improves pickup reliability
>BTW... the calibration number is 1224
with Coreys weight on Corey's wheel's!!!!!!! as Corey's tyre pressure
nice and transportable (-:
to calibrate, inflate to favourite pressure make mark on usual buggy surface, place tyre on mark with valve down sit on buggy and have someone push you forward for 5 or ten tyre revs mark surface measure mark to mark, div by revs that is your calib for your tyre and your weight and your surface
prob needs to be in millimeters.....so come prepared
Libre VMax Full Race Review
Hi all, After 2 weeks of use (over 400 miles), I thought that I would share my new found enjoyment of the "Libre V-Max Full Race" buggy. The name says exactly what it is, a full grown racing machine. I first saw one on Borkum in September at the European Championships, I was very impressed and after a week of racing on Euro Beaches in My small (normal size) Predator Buggy, being out classed by the Bigger, Heavier Buggy's that the majority of people were using, I was determined to own one. Upon my return I was straight in touch with Libre who said that they would get one in the Post from Germany that day, and that I could try it out for a while. "Impressed" well that is a bit of an understatement, I have had a new lease of life injected in to my Obsession for Kite Traction.Libre (Hans & Gertie Hauser ) have pretty much thought of everything whilst designing the "Full Race", the foot rest's are adjustable into 4 different positions (up,down,forward or towards the pilot). The seat (more like a chair) is by far the most comfortable that I have ever Buggied in, this is also Fully Adjustable in All Directions. The thing that really rounds the buggy off is the Fully adjustable Camber & Toe in /out. This together with the overall size and weight of the "Full Race" is what really makes the difference whilst travelling at speed, in fact travelling, full stop. My normal test in any buggy is first a 360 followed by an Axle Stand, then just give it hell !!!!! The 360 was not a problem surprisingly, considering the increase in size from my Predator Buggy with a standard 1m axle (which freestyles like a thing possessed) , it seemed to slide round very controllably with no problem at all, in fact, it felt "very" safe indeed. The high (padded) side rails & seat really support you well, and install you with confidence. Those dodgy bits of the beach where people have been digging for worms or kids trying to bury their father in the sand the previous day (the cause of many a wipe-out), are know much less a concern, and we all know how quickly they suddenly appear in your path (Too Soon !!) As for the axle stand, well, this buggy has a 1.35m axle, on the end of the axle is the Camber adjustment in total it is about 1.5m wide...I have to say that it don't wanna do it ! This is the hardest buggy to get on 2 wheels that I have ever tried, but with allot of effort it will eventually go. This buggy wants to stay reassuringly on the ground. I have given it hell ever since, and will continue to do so as "The Full Race ......LOVES IT !!........And does it so well. The whole Libre Buggy experience is certainly one to recommend, the handling inspires you to buggy from "Dawn till Dusk" in the knowledge that you will drive home in high spirit, & in one piece, whatever the weather. "Bolt on Goodies": How does "Full Suspension" and a choice of wheels in various shapes and size's sound, "I think it's time for a Van !!!!! ". Since I took delivery from Libre (via "Sky Kites" Tel UK 0181-302-8203) I have caused a bit of a stir on the local Beaches in Kent & last week at "The Last Gasp". I have never seen so many grown ups standing in a line shouting "me next" (contrary to rumours). The beaches of Kent have certainly undergone a German Invasion since their introduction into the UK 2 weeks ago, and I am sure that they will be warmly welcomed by many more pilots here in the UK. WARNING : If you get one, you will have to share it with everyone in the queue.
Regards. Mark Kingshott (K1)
CQuad LookAlike
Hye to all Kiters,
I`ve designed a homemade Hybrid as a low wind traction buggy kite.
With thanks to a lot of info at the Kitecraft Site.
This are the dimensions (if everything goes right):
span: 5,5 mtr.
height: 2 mtr.
area: +/- 9,5mtr^2.
wing foil: modified Clark Y, 16% thickness, will be pushed in shape by
3mm glassfiber at each rib top.
ribs: 11 ribs (5 at the so called spines, 1,5 mtr in lenght) and (6
between the spines with shorther ribs with will only be to shape
the sail, 1 mtr in lenght.
frame LE: 4 mm carbon fiber, 2X 4,1 mtr. (original C-Quad 2.2 frame).
frame battens: 4 mm carbon fiber (5X, spines).
bridle: Same way attached to the frame as the C-Quads.
Idea,
The idea behind this is that a shaped kite has better performance than a flat one (HuHu, tell me something).
The C-Quads from Peter Lynn are only shaped in the front, at the back the sail is just pushed in a bow which is not effective and will do no good to the wing shape.
I want to create a wing foil wich will be somewhat rigid, so by fast forward speed the nose can not be pushed in what results in a bad wing shape and is again not effective.
By adding ribs and fiber spars I think I can solve this problem so the wing foils is being held, I hope this will help the kite reacted, fly and pull (here is it were I do it for) better.
I`m still thinking of making the trailing edge with a spar so the trailing edge can not be deformed as by the Peter Lynn C-Quads, this will be tested.
This story is certainly NOT complete, but I`m working on a page for my site but it`s bnot ready (yet).
I thought you would be interested so I made this mail for you.
When I`ve the page finished, the kite ready to fly or tested I will drop in a mail on this newsgroup.
If you have questions, suggestions, anything, Give me a mail.
Greetings, Berto.
http://home.wxs.nl/~...l.air/kite.html
THE SKY IS THE LIMIT AND THE WIND OUR FRIEND AND DRIVING FORCE.
- Craig Rodgerson
-
This promises to be the biggest BORK issue ever. You guys keep contributing such useful material. These past two months have seen a noticeable decline in flammable postings. This month we are also including some material from the KiteBuggy email list. We have a tremendous resource here and now you can search through all of the issues together. Keep up the good work!
The multiple issue keyword search can be found here - Search all issues
Once again I'm indebted to the faithful BORK staff:
- Craig Rodgerson
- Peter C. Hugger Editor
This page is a summary of postings on the rec.kites Usenet news group that our editors believe to be interesting and useful. Opinions expressed in these postings are not those of KiteLife Magazine or its staff.
Building Content:
- Cracked Spreader
- Precision Kite Plan
- Super Glue
- Chikara
- Needles and Thread
- Seams
- Trick Lines
- Bungy
- Rokaku
- PreCurving Dacron
- Tyvek
- Scrapbook Glue
- Framing
- Dye
Cracked Spreader
Hi,
I have an HQ jam session. I am pretty knew to this higher end of stunt kiting, and I have had a bunch of really bad crashes. The problem is that one of the lower spreaders seems to have developed a crack in the plastic like casing around the inside (which I am assuming is the carbon fiber part, correct me if I am wrong). The center appears to be intact. Can the kite still be flown (the crack is near the end of the spreader where it connects to the central spine). Can a put a piece of tape or some glue on to keep it from cracking? Do I need a new spar? if so how much to they run. I think that it cracked because the rubber piece into which the stand of attaches is very tight (what are these rubber things called?) the rest of the rubber thingies are pretty loose around the standoffs so they pop out in a bad crash. is there a way to expand this rubber thing to make it a bit less snug? can I shave some of it out?
Any help would be appreciated,
WODEN
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Fairly common problem to have the lower spreaders begin to split at the center T if you crash a jam hard. Especially when you repeat the process several times :^) But hey we all start that way. The carbon fiber part of the rods is the "plastic like casing" you describe. The carbon fiber rod is hollow and the end that plugs into the center T is filled with a glue to help reduce splitting problems. The way to stop the splits before they get to bad is to wrap the rod with tape, or I have used thread (which I then wet down with superglue). If the splitting gets bad, replace the spreader. A 2300 rod is less than $5 and you can use hot glue or epoxy to fill the end that will plug into the T. Don't enlarge the T fitting on the spine. This needs to be snug when you start learning slack line tricks in wind. The spreader will pop loose in flight if you enlarge the holes.
WT
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Hi w0dEn,
Here's what I'd do, You're going to reverse the spreader, ie: broken end will end up being connected to the leading edge connector. The good end will end up in the center tee.
1. Glue the broken end, inside and out, then put scotch tape over the area, to hold everything tight while the glue sets.
2. Remove the clip on the other end place it the same distance from the end, on the broken end.
3. Reinforce the unbroken end with some solid rod of about 3 to 4 inches. If you don't have any then use 1/8 wood dowel that will better than nothing. Put a mark at 4" on it, then apply glue , then insert it into the hollow rod to the mark, then just break if off, 1/8" will snap cleanly. This way prevents sticky fingers.
That about it, a lot of pressure is at the tee, so you'll be using the unbroken end there.
I've done this on my psycho a lot, for both the spreaders and the lower leading edges.
Hope that helps, Pierre Gregoire
Precision Kite Plan
Can anybody point me to any freely available plans for a Precision kite? My partner and I are thinking of doing some pairs flying and we would like to build our own kites to do so.
So if you know of a plan for a kite that would be suitable please point me at it... :-)
Thanks in advance...
Dazzz
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You could try the Raaseri, designed by Simo Salanne:
http://www.kfs.org/kites/simo/
and follow the link to Raaseri.
HTH
Dave
Super Glue
Yesterday I broke the bow ( carbon 4mm rod ) of my X-bow and I need to make a new one. I need to remove a few tiny pieces from the old bow that are glueded with superglue, two tiny cylinders, one quarter open, glued on the rod to limit a connectors movement. I once heared something about heating a superglued connection to loosen it. Is there anyone who has some experience with this?
Jacques
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Jacques I've heard that you can get rid of super glue by washing it for ages in hot water, alternatively acetone will dissolve it but I'm not sure what effect this has on carbon rods. Hope this helps
Chas
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I have used acetone to remove fletching from arrow shafts with no visible damage to them. I used the arrow shafts in a pinch for kite sticks, they were on sale, cheap.
From The Land of 10,000 Kite Flying Fields,
Jerry Houk
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Hi, Carbon rods are made with a two component resin which hardens. Acetone will slowly attack this, the resin component swells and eventually cracks. I don't know how long you can leave the super glue to soak in acetone before it attacks the resin in the rod. Try putting a small piece of rod in a bottle of acetone and leave it for hours, days, weeks.
Tel
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A good hobby shop will stock CA glue de-bonders. I haven't tried it on spars, but it's great for stuck-together fingers. Nail polish remover will do in a pinch, too.
~Steve
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Hi Jacques,
Don't worry too much about it. The cylinders you are talking about may cost you 10 cents (if they let you pay for it) each, less than any product you could by to loosing it for your previous carbon rod.
So, my suggestion is: Get rid of the stoppers with the broken rod, and make another one with new pieces that won't have any traces of old glue or piece of carbon stick to it.
I have to go, i need to go buy one for myself, a spreader on my Feather broke while i fixed it on my bike ...
Ivan
You have to use your kite to broke them, so it's kind of a good news. Better than putting them in your closet and never break them!
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You can put a drop or two of superglue to loosen the old superglue. Then work the cylinders off the rod.
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What I have done, and seen done at the local kite shop is to stand the rod on end, put pliers with flat sides above the stop, and tap with a hammer. The glue pops free when the sharp jolt flexes the plastic of the stop with out damaging the stop, so far anyway ;^)
WT
Chikara
Does anyone know which differences are between Chickara and other fabrics (Icarex and Carrington) ? I have seen it's cheaper but no more.
Thanks. Antonio
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Hi Mark,
Here's an excerpt from an article on fabrics in Kite Passion magazine #16 April/May 99:
Chikara Ventex Icarex
Weight (g/m2) 41.2 34.5 31
Tear
resistance (kg) 5.05/5.00 1.0/1.2 2.0/2.0
Air Perme-
ability
(cc/cm/sec) 0.03 0.08 0.02
Stretch
(2.26 kg/5 cm) 4.0 2.2 N/A
As you can see, Chikara is heavier and stretchier than Icarex and Ventex. It is more airtight than Ventex, and almost as good as Icarex. Tear strength is where Chikara shines, more than double either polyester ripstop. I believe 'Chikara' is Japanese for "strength". For power applications, Chikara has a lot to offer.
HTH,
Steve
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Yes, PL use it on their CQ and it seems to be good. I also want to get my hands on some because it is double coated and sheds water better (and absorbs less) than previous nylon ripstop. It should be stronger than Icarex when it comes to stress tearing precisely because it has more elasticity. This is one advantage of nylon ripstop over polyester. Another is price, although one local kitemaker has quoted prices per meter so close to Icarex as to make it less easy to justify. Hope there is a good cheap supplier out there...
Paul
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Icarex is made from polyester, has a coating on one side only but is hydrophobic (waterproof). It usually comes in weights of 31 and 38 grammes per sq metre. There is a newer polycarbonate icarex (PC31) which is supposedly stronger and better than normal icarex and weighs the same as the old 31 grammes per sq metre icarex (it may also have coating on both sides). Icarex is not stretchy and is mostly used for framed kites.
Carrington is nylon with coating on one side only. Nylon is hydrophyllic (attracts water) so is not great if you are going to be flying your kites in wet conditions. It is also slightly stretchy, so framed kite makers prefer not to use it. Carrington weighs in at 42 grammes per sq metre. Over time, it will stretch permanently. It is however, by far the cheapest kite sail fabric.
Chikara is a new nylon with coating on both sides. It seems to have good water repellency (at least while the coating is new) and is somewhat less stretchy than nylon. It weighs in at 38g / sq metre and a number of power kite builders swear by it. It is not used so much in framed kites, but I know that Chris Matheson thinks it is a great material for framed kites and has been developing some of his new Midis with it.
Alternatives are Toray and Ventex. These are polyester materials much like Icarex. I am not too sure that there is much difference (if any) between the two, but I have heard a few reports that suggest that Toray tear resistancy is not all that wonderful. I believe that they weigh in at around 31g / sq metre.
There are also a few other more specialist materials, but they are less widely used.
Hope that helps
Dave
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I've been very fortunate to have got off Chris Matheson a Midi'98 design in 6mm carbon and Chikara fabric. Having always flown a Midi'98 reframed in Skyshark 5PT for most of my experience (my most favourite spar) it was quite an eye opener to have the Chikara version.
It much more forgiving because of the ever so slight stretch and is fast becoming my preferred Midi mainly because of the extra momentum this kite has. Because the 5PT version was so light it would fly in very light winds but also fly right up to about 18mph in a controlled manner because of the 5PT strength.
However, having flown the 6mm/Chikara version I am being won back by the additional weight and the stretch really does "Iron Out" some of the "Juddering" experienced by "Crisper" materials of the Ventex/Icarex type.
Having put 3 Chikara versions on 75ft lines recently, Chris had me and Graham Jackson flying team with him. I was very surprised how well this went considering that this was 'spose to be a "Trick Kite". This is not something I would have normally tried.
Tends to reinforce the belief that your mind is like a parachute, it only works when it's open.
Regards Robert
Needles and Thread
Hi,
What thread and needle size would you recommend I use to sew standard spinnaker ripstop?
I did a search on Deja and Remarq but couldn't find an answer.
Andy Savidge
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Andy, We use V-30 polyester thread with a size 10 (70?) needle for applique and joining panels, and V-46 thread with a #12 (80) needle for reinforcements and heavier material. A size 14 needle may help when sewing noses (webbing). These thread sizes are standard industrial sizing. I recommend buying polyester sailmaking thread from Into the Wind, or other source. Good thread will eliminate lots of problems when sewing. I'm not fond of metrecene, but others on this NG are.
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Use polyester thread and the needles that you already have and you should be fine...
Dazzz
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The needle size is really based on the thread size. If you are making traction kites, or other high load kites, I recommend using the thickest thread you can get your hands on. Sorry if I don't know the numbers, but I have used polyester (from Hang-em-high), and bonded Nylon with good results. The bonded nylon was the same weight used to make backpacks - very heavy stuff. Choose a needle that allows the needle to slide along the thread when the thread is held at a 45deg slope. Does this make sense? If the needle is too small, it will bind while sewing. If it's too large, you will be putting bigger holes in your rip-stop than necessary.
Hope this helps. Gene Matocha......is BACK!
Seams
Hi all Just 1 question, How do I stop the seam stick ( the tape stuff) from sticking to the needle causing my sewing machine to drop stiches? I have a Phaff 1222. Is there something i can wipe on the needle or another product I can use?Thanks in advance.
Wayne Holmes
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How do you keep the ripstop folded on a double folded seam, so it can be sewn? Is there a guide or fence a person could buy to keep the stitching straight??
Thanx in advance, Dave
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You can try - A gizmo your thread passes through containing silicon to impregnate the thread as it runs through. - Nylon thread with some silicon content - ISTR Peter Betancourt uses this stuff. Kite Studio sell it, I'm sure you'd get it elsewhere.
Personally I spray silicon based polish onto the reel of thread until it's wet then dab off the excess and leave it to 'dry' overnight. You need only do this to the top reel, forget the bobbin in the machine. When you use it traces of silicon will be deposited on the needle/foot stopping the adhesive sticking. This works well.
It's interesting that you have a 1222, in previous discussions Pfaff's seemed to be immune to this problem.
-- Ian Newham
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Try a sailmakers tape. 3M make a whole range just for ripstop and they are designed not to gum up the needle. The tip Ian has given you works really well (he sent it to me last week). Thanks Ian. Phil H.
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I use a silicone based product called 'Sewer's Aid'. You put a drop on your needle before starting a seam. Got it at a local fabric/sewing shop.
-Kent
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Hi Wayne - I use 'Sewers Aid' - It's a silicone oil in a little squeeze bottle - 1 drop at the top of the needle every 4 or 5 feet of zig-zag does the trick for me.
Art
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Wayne,
What kind of thread are you using?
I've sewn a few thousand kites with seam tape and discovered that thread is critical. Don't even try to use a cotton or cotton/poly thread. The results are typically just as you described.
I have gone to a non-bonded polyester, almost identical to Gutterman or Mettler available at better fabric stores.
I know it's easier said than done, but speed is your friend when sewing through seam tape. The more speed and needle heat you generate when sewing through seam tape the better your results will usually be.
Please feel free to contact me if I can be of any help!
Ken McNeill
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Double stick tape.
Color My Sky, Ellen
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Check out my page.. lots of tips there.
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For a double folded seam apparently a compensating foot works really well. This is a foot where each half is sprung up and down so it can run along the edge of a French seam keeping your stitching perfectly straight.
I haven't tried one _yet_, it was recommended to me by a professional kite maker and I do intend to get one.
-- Ian Newham
Trick Lines
Probably a silly question but here goes...
I fly on dyneema lines. I want to add a trick line to prevent wingtip wraps whilst learning tricks. Do I a) Need to use dyneema for the trick line (so as not to cut flight lines when a wrap happens) or
swap to braided Dacron and use anything for the trick line-- Mark
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Mark,
Not a silly question. We all hear about how easy it is to damage dyneema/spectra lines.
You can pretty much use what you like for a trick line. If you have some spare dyneema, you could use it. Most people (and kites that come with a trick line) use bridle line. Just make sure you don't pull the wing tips in when you fit it.
A good way of fitting the line, so it won't come off easily is to drill a hole in the nock from the wing tip inwards, then pass the trick line through the hole, and knot it on the inside.
Drill the hole in this direction:
|
|
V
/| |\
/ | | \
| --- |
| |
| |
-------R.
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Howdy Richard, Howdy all, I'm partial to buying a couple of rubber caps, sized to fit over the nocks and sail attachments on the wingtips. Then I punch small holes at the ends of the caps for the the trick line. Feed the line through the hole, and put it over the nock. The cap (if it fits tightly) holds the trick line without knots, and you can adjust the tension just by pulling on the excess portion of the trick line. The cap also protects the original nock.
Regards, Don
Bungy
We're relatively new to making kites. We're making a cellular kite, and would like to use bungi as our tensioning device, but we wondered if someone could give us some advice:
What's the best method for attaching the bungi to the sail? We've tried sewing it, but our machine doesn't like doing that.
We'd appreciate anything that you could suggest!
Thanks,
Andy and Darci Sowers
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You didn't say exactly what size cord you are using but, if it isn't too big try using a sharp new needle and use a "cording foot" on the machine. This is a foot with a groove machined into the bottom and it is designed exactly for this type of work. Use a long stitch and decrease the tension on the top feed. Bunji is best sewn with a slight tension on the cord when fed into the machine. I personally sew the bunji to the sail using this technique and then finish it with a neat zig zag stitch over the top. One thing to remember is to use a quite large stitch. Small stitches tend to end up acting like a "tear along dotted line" if the sail is under a lot of tension leaving a beautiful neat large gaping hole in your nicely finished sail. I've already done that one !
"Fly away and be free"
Phil H.
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What I do is sew on a loop of nylon cord, usually 2-3 mm diam, then tie the bungy to that
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Hi Andy and Darci, hi folks.
What I did on a few kites is to sew a dacron patch where the bungee is to be attached. Then I punch one or more holes in the dacron and simply thread the bungee through the hole or holes. Unless you pull like a tractor, the dacron patch should not tear off. In fact this is quite strong system.
To punch the holes I mostly use a small wattage pen type soldering iron. This melt the dacron and avoid fraying. Although using a simple punching tool shall work as well.
Wind or no wind, fly for fun
Jean (Johnny) Lemire
Rokaku
hello,
i am looking for the best size for a rokaku who could fly between 2 to 6 beaufort. Do exist kite more stable than rokaku. thanks
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Try the one on the Kite Passion site at http://www.kitepassi...aku/rokkaku.htm I had one made for me by a friend using the plans on this page and it flies very stable in most winds. I built a smaller one myself that was only 1.2mtr in height and found it harder to stabilise.
PreCurving Dacron
Hi all,
I'm having trouble with sewing dacron onto a curved leading edge.
If i remember correctly, there were a few postings about this a while ago. I vaguely remember that it was possible to pre-curve the dacron before sewing, but I don't remember how!
Can anyone help me with this?
Tankx! --
SvenA
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I think this is a common process: Trace out your curve on a piece of dacron. You can buy it in sheets or rolls, by the yard. (1)Make two pieces, (2)sew them together, (3)turn them inside out, and (4)sew onto edge of kite. Always looking for alternatives, I have used a honkin' bias tape that's half poly/ half cotton, and it works kinda okay, but not really. I don't like the ripstop bias tapes, because Puppet Kites spend alot of time with their noses on the beach, and if you've ever had a nose wear through (kind of a Puppet nose bleed) it can be ugly!
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Sven, The way I got roound this was to fold the dacron in half and then glue the sail fabric onto one half of the fold, right into the crease. The glue I used was Pritt Stick, a glue stick for sticking paper. The advantage of this is that you can reposition the fabric to get it just right and it holds it quite long enough for sewing.
Hope this helps,
Alan.
Tyvek
What do you all think about making kites with Tyvek? I guess my question is I don't really know anything about sewing heheh... and was wondering if no-sew solutions are nice for just expirimenting / practicing... I know that it probably won't be as nice and permanent as sewing and using rip-stop.
Thanks tons,
Thomas
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Hi Thomas We work with Tyvek a bit and find with kids making kites a strong fiberglass tape holds spa's in place great. also great for decorating, But we have also found double-sided tape works fine for holding it together for prototypes, although that is not a permanent solution. It also sews ok but it is abrasive so your needles will go blunt quickly.
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I LOVE Tyvek for experimenting. I use Elmer's glue... regular white paper glue, and have had no problems. If you go look at the Nerdbird... under "Animations, Photos, The Kitchen Sink", THIS kite is made from a light weight Tyvek that is available at kite stores. (Great Winds in Seattle has it.) http://www.yelmtel.com/~rmaddy This kite made it through a hellacious season... I was totally surprised how well it *held up*. --
Scrapbook Glue
Hello All,
My wife is a very serious scrapbook maker. As a result, she's got a million pair of fancy paper scissors, punches, pens, etc. I wasn't paying a lot of attention to the supplies she uses 'til I saw her using a ZIG 2 way glue pen. It's a liquid, water based acrylic glue that is supplied in pens. The tips are in a wide variety of sizes. Goes on blue when wet, dries clear.
Right now you're wondering why this is cool to kitefliers? I decided to try using this stuff instead of seamstick (double stick) tape to hold panels together while sewing.
It seems to work pretty well so long as you make sure that it's dry before you sew or the panels will separate. It doesn't seem to gum up the needle at all, though I've not made any really long seams with it yet. Nice thing is that you can clean off any excess with a wet cloth when you're through sewing! Only drawback besides having to wait a while for it to dry is that you almost need to put the panels together on a light table to see what you're doing. Also, you have to be very careful handling the assembled panels while the glue is wet or the panels will just slide apart with very little pressure.
I'll be doing further experimentation on this. Seems like a better solution for me than the needle-gumming seamstick tape.....Plus, it's acid free.
-Kent : Utah Kite Nerd
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Hi Sounds very intersting stuff...*S* I would be very interested to see how your tests goes with it Good luck and would love you to keep me informed about it.
thanks
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Suze I've used the Bostik Blu Stik (form newsagents) and it's ' sort of' OK. Drawback is waiting for it to dry and it doesn't hold very well. I've tried craft glue which dries quicker but is hard to remove the excess and 'No More Pins" which is expensive and washes out with water. I tend to stick (!) with double stick tape and have methylated spirit and a cloth handy when sewing. See you on the weekend ?
Baz
Framing
Hi. gang ! Hope someone can help with this. My buddy and I are building a pair of Raaseri stunt kites ( our second kite building project ). Things are going well so far, but now we need to build the frames. AAAAARGH !, Confusion ! ;o( We both like the Skyshark frame in my Elixir, but there are no numbers or anything on the spreaders. Also, the Raaseri needs a 42 inch spine and I can't seem to find any sticks long enough. The most confusing part concerns ferrules for LE and lower spreaders. Any and all tips, suggestions and info will be GREATLY appreciated ! ;o)
Sky Good, Ground Bad ! KS
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Hi Ken,
I asked Peter Betancourt to assist me here in helping answer your questions. I hope I can convey how he explained it without mucking it up...lol.
If you are using a 40" linear spar for the spine you can use a standard 3" aluminum ferrule to extend it at the nose or end of the spine. Simply insert it 1" into the spine and glue it well.
You may want to glue a vinyl end cap to the end of the ferrule to inhibit wear. It's not a bad idea to use a small bit of kevlar to reinforce the nose as well.If you are using linear spars, you can ferrule the upper leading edge to the lower leading edge using a standard 3" aluminum ferrule. This is usually done between the two spreader connectors, but closer to the lower spreader connector per your plan's recommendations.
For the lower spreaders, you can install the 3" aluminum spreader in the t-fitting and insert the lower spreaders into the ferrule when you set it up. You might want to cover the ends of the ferrule with a vinyl end cap to protect the sail when the kite is broken down and rolled up.
Another method is to install the external aluminum ferrule to one of the spreaders. Then when you set up the kite, the ferruled spreader inserts into the t-fitting, and the other spreader fits into the ferrule. This method will not create a situation where the end of the ferrule will damage the sail when it's broken down and rolled up.
As for the spreaders not being marked on the Elixer, I only know that the specs call for Sky Shark P100's. These are sometimes not screened with the manufacturer or type of spar.
If you opt to use tapered wrapped carbon graphite spars in your frameset, email me and I'll explain how to do this.
Good luck with your Project!
Color My Sky, Ellen http://www.x-kites.com
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P100 - thats the unmarked stuff with the matt, smooth, lightly sanded finish. Unless you're building an ultralight I'd be more inclined toward P200's.
I'd forget about getting long spars, keep life simple - buy 8 standard length (825mm) rods:- The top spreader is 560mm, so what you cut off the top spreader you ferrule on to the tail end of the spine to give you a spar of 1090mm. 42 inch is about 1067mm so you can chop a bit more off.
The LE is 1650 long so that's 2 standard length (825mm) rods ferruled together end to end.
The lower spreaders are 760mm, so just cut down a standard length rod. The new Skyshark P series rods would be a good choice there since you can cut them anywhere without weakening them.
You shouldn't need ferrules on the lower spreaders, each fits into the T at one end and the leading edge connector at the other. I'm not quite sure what the problem is there.
Hope that helps.
-- Ian Newham
Dye
Hey All,
Eric Curtis of Boreal Kites was kind enough to give me some very technical answers to several questions I had for him here on r.k. He emailed it to me and said it was cool if I posted it. Yay!
Anyway...I made a little page including his reply. I'm having some trouble with x-kites.com right now (silly silly isp) so I posted it here.
http://www.sportkite.com/dye.html
Enjoy!
Color My Sky, Ellen
- Craig Rodgerson
-
This promises to be the biggest BORK issue ever. You guys keep contributing such useful material. These past two months have seen a noticeable decline in flammable postings. This month we are also including some material from the KiteBuggy email list. We have a tremendous resource here and now you can search through all of the issues together. Keep up the good work!
The multiple issue keyword search can be found here - Search all issues
Once again I'm indebted to the faithful BORK staff:
- Craig Rodgerson
- Peter C. Hugger Editor
This page is a summary of postings on the rec.kites Usenet news group that our editors believe to be interesting and useful. Opinions expressed in these postings are not those of KiteLife Magazine or its staff.
Misc Content:
- Dirty Air
- Dremel Tool
- Deja Template
Dirty Air
Hi,
Does anyone have any idea I would have to stand away from an obstruction (say a line of trees or low buildings) before any serious disturbances in the wind are negligible. I have a couple of large fields near my house but both are surrounded on all sides by trees or buildings which seem to disrupt wind flow across the field. I stand at the opposite end of the field from whichever direction the wind is blowing but there are still "blank patches" where the kite stalls (unintentionally).
Ta
Andy
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Hi Andy!
We call this the "Rule of 7". You have to be seven times the height of the obstacle away. So if that tree is 100 feet tall, you need to be 700 feet downwind to find clean air.
Happy hiking...
dg
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yeah - and Sods Law says that either:- 1. You need horrendously long kite lines, or 2. If you can fly 700 feet downwind of an obstruction, that will put you over something like a shipping channel or motorway! Go on - FLY DIRTY - you will amaze yourself at the exotic tricks that you manage to perform! Crazy like a fox...... :-)
best wishes - Dicky
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I was curious about the 7 law as well. Isn't the wind shadow also determined by the speed of the wind?
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Yes; I asked about this a few months ago, and the general opinion is that more wind = more turbulence, and turbulence for more distance downwind. I think the rule of 7 applies in "normal" winds, so 5-10mph or so -- I'm guessing here, I admit.
Note that there's a difference between turbulence caused by obstacles and generally gusty wind -- the wind around here is very rarely smooth; even when I'm standing very definitely clear of any obstacles behind me (on the side of a reservoir, so there's just water upwind) that's no guarantee that the wind will be smooth.
After a while I've found I can feel when there's turbulence from trees as opposed to the wind changing; turbulence changes much more rapidly and you can feel the kite jolting around/blowing backwards; the wind changes rapidly, and on a small scale, as if there were pockets in the air, almost.
Ragged wind, though, changes more slowly; the wind will come and go over a period of 30 seconds rather than 1/3 second, direction tends to shift more gradually -- there's less of a feeling of wrestling with the wind to get the kite to do anything, I guess.
-- dan
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7 times the height of the object is the minimum. Nop Velthuisen and Servaas Van der Horst state 20 times the height. I have experienced this myself. The stronger the wind, probably the further the distance, as you get all sorts of turbulence. A lot would depend on the kite and your flying. truly clean air would give completely smooth flight. Marginal air would maybe make ground sweeps a little erratic, or edgde flying less predicatble etc.
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There is a formula to calculate dirty by speed and distance. However, a good rule of thumb is at least a couple hundred feet.
I have the same problem where I live and had to find another park with no obstructions.
Good luck
David
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I fly in a field near to work, trees and buildings all around. Worst flying site I know, but it is only five minutes from work. So I have the choice make the best of it, or don' fly at all in the week.
Andy
Dremel Tool
Hi folks,
I've decided that I now have a good reason to buy a Dremel tool that I've wanted since I was about 15 (many years ago) -- cutting spars. [No, I'll buy a current model, not a 30-year old one!] I've used deja-news to read many of the earlier rec.kites spar-cutting threads. It seems that the Dremel (or similar) tool is a good choice, and as I said, I've always wanted one.
So, my question is corded vs. cordless?
I looked last night and it seems the tradeoff is portability (cordless) versus speed and variable speed (corded). A local hardware store is going out of business and they have the corded variable speed model (didn't get the model number) with some number of accessories and case for 20% off (makes it $56US). I don't know what the cordless goes for.
How useful is a flexible shaft? They also had the Black & Decker Wizard (Dremel wannabe?) including the flexible shaft for about the same price. It's corded and doesn't (I think) have variable speeds.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks in advance, Charlie
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Greetings Charlie, I use dremel™ tools all the time, for all kinds of "stuff". Here are my observations.
Higher RPM is better.
Higher torque is better.
Dremel™ is better than other brands.
The cordless versions are heavier than corded,makes a big difference if used for long periods.
The cordless models have enough power for cutting a rod in the field, but, they're fairly wimpy for heavy or prolonged use.
The battery packs on the cordless models are unreliable.
I rarely use the flexible shaft because the dremel is comfortable in your hand, and can reach into most places. The shaft does reduce fatigue during prolonged use though, because it's lighter.
The fiber reinforced cutoff discs last considerably longer than the thin disc's.
Dremel™ tools are made in Racine, Wisconsin. "On Wisconsin"
$56.00 bucks for the whole kit is a steal, for a tool that is sooo versatile.
Blue Skies, Mike Delfar
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I don't use mine for spar cutting for reasons I'll touch on later but I have put in a lot of hours on these things for something not kite related...
The single most important feature I ever looked for was the highest possible RPM. These things have comparatively little torque and the tools can clog, both of which can be overcome with very high rpm.
Now a public safety warning. Carbon fibres, especially when ground up small present a health hazard. They are not themselves carcinogenic like asbestos for example but they are particularly good at carrying crud and almost impossible to remove from your flesh. If your going to cut with a dremel do something to control the dust such as keeping the tool and cut wet. It's bad enough if it gets on your hands since it can enter your skin and ultimately blood stream, it's potentially evil if you inhale it.
-- Ian Newham
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I have 2 Dremel tools for my "other hobby" model railroading. They are both fixed speed tools but Dremel does offer a variable speed foot pedal that works very well. The most useful accessory I have is the flexible drive shaft as it allows me to get into tight places with a drill or other tool without the bulk of the Dremel tool itself. As far as cord or cordless I would go with cord as cordless battery packs only last so long before the have to be replaced and there is nothing worse than getting half way through a job when the drill starts to slow down and run out of power. I use a model railroading razor saw blade (fits into an Exacto knife handle) and miniture mitre box to cut spars rather than the Dremel tool to prevent harmful dust.
Richard Dutton
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I have used a Dremel tool now for over 5 years, and I use the flex tool almost all the time
I have my drill mounted on a hook on the wall and the flex shaft hanging down. I can pick it up and use it ior whatever purpose I need (be it Kites, Dollhouse stuff for my wife, miniture figure conversions for wargaming........yeah I know, pretty sad 8-)
As to the debate between Corded and Cordless........gof ro both, the cordless is pretty inexpensive, and a godsend if you need to trim spars on the field (pretty difficult under normal circumstances with the corded model 8-)
Just my opinion
Andy
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I don't know Dremel but when it comes to power tools, I'm a Black & Decker fan. Not that they perform any better but they just last longer and I'm talking drills, sanders, grinders, cordless screwdrivers and the range of industrial-strength hair dryers 8-) . Your choice, but I've never had quality problems with B&D. I don't know about service because I've never needed it. .
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Hi - I've used a dremel to cut spars, amongst other things, and I seem to remember coming across a chart in the manual covering speed settings for various materials. As I recall, the setting recommended for carbon fiber was fairly low; What ever it was, I used it with out problems. I would recommend the corded model for it's variable speed. The flexible shaft is good, but can be a handful with out the foot pedal, as the speed control is on the body of the tool. I now use the Aformentioned Exacto Extra fine Razor Saw And Mini Mitre Box, available in hobby and craft stores as a set or separately. Much easier to deal with, if you don't have a shop. Tape the spar to discourage splinters (Mostly with wrapped spars), and rotate the stick as you cut. There's a lot less dust and stink cutting manually. The mitre box makes it work out real nice. That's good price on the Dremel - Worth having whether you cut spars with it or not. The foot pedal is the one thing I'd like to have on mine. Jim Byrne
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Ah... a question I know a little about. ;-)
Dremel makes some great tools for hobbiests. I've used them for modeling and similiar pursuits. Unless you plan on using it to drill with (A task I feel an eighth inch grinder is a poor substitute for a drill at.) you don't need the variable speed. Not to mention it leaves less in the tool to wear out or malfunction. All the burrs, sanding disks and drums are designed to rotate at high speed. Torque is more important, so I recommend the corded version. If you think you'll be using it often I'd also recommend the flexible shaft. You get a lot more controll being able to hold the tool like a pencil, not to mention the smaller size and weight is less fatiguing if used for an extended period. (I'm a tool maker by trade. At work I've done away with the electric motor all together, and gone to a pneumatic eighth in. grinder. It's the size of a cigar and weighs only around an ounce. But few of us enjoy the luxury of having an air compressor in the home. ;-) As far as the Dremmel vs. other brands I'm afraid most of my experiance has been with industrial grinders (big nasty things with 1/2 - 3/4 hp. motors that weigh 3 to 6 lbs, thus my switch to pnuematic.) I can tell you that I've been using the same Dremmel grinder sporadically for close to twenty years without a problem. There's no shortage of quality there! The only other advice I have to offer is Don't forget to wear saftey glasses while using power tools! (I've been through the stuff in the eye bit a few times at work, And you should be aware that the doctor removes it with a needle. It's not pleasn't!) Any way I hope you find my two cents worth while...
Smooth winds, Bobbo
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Charlie,
Go for the corded one.
Lighter to use for lengths of time and better performance from it. I have a Black and Decker equivalent and have a lead that the drill plugs into and I then wire it up to the car battery. So then you have the better power and it is partable, well sort of.
NB: Do not use the drill on the car (for hifi install, car alarms etc) as when you drill into the metal you will be earthing the 12v straight back through the car chassis. If you need to then use a different battery, not the cars one.
Rich
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It is also very easy to use an air driven die grinder. While they eat a lot of air, you only need to use a small tank to cut a few spars. The tank can easily be recharged at an air station.
The die grinder has lots of guts and a very high rpm.
Perry
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Since it is your first, get the very best and go for the corded digital model.
If that doesn't work, then you always can pick up a cordless model later. The wife understands that sometimes mistakes can be made ;^'
Perry
Deja Template
As a reaction to a recent thread in this forum I am considering using the following text. I would do so in place of a short references similar to the one I made suggesting that they consult www.deja.com for information. Any contributions, modifications, improvements etc. that members of the forum would like to see to the text are welcome now or at any point in the future. I hope to limit my use of this text back into the forum to those questions that seem to be repeated frequently when the "playing field" has not been changed. Others should feel free to utilize this or similar text in an attempt to provide useful responces to individuals who may not be as familiar with newsgroups and the web resources as others.
Questions similar to yours has been asked in this news group in the past. Although I am not a subject matter expert, I can suggest searching the rec.kites archives.
One news group archive can be found at http://www.deja.com This archive stores previous messages posted to this and other news groups, and provides a searching function on the archives. To access this information the following instructions can be used to check to see if there is information on the subject you are interested in stored in the archives.
Access deja news's home page at the above URL. Click the "power search" link located just below the keyword search box in the upper right of the page. Fill in the appropriate boxes with information relating to the search you want to perform. Some useful boxes to limit your search are:
Keywords: (enter some descriptive word or words about the subject) Forum: rec.kites Dates: (useful to limit the responses to something current)
Note that the archives are not the totality of discussions carried on in this forum. Deja does not always seem to have complete information nor does the archive go back to the "beginning" of rec.kites Although imperfect in many ways, deja.com can be a source of valuable information nevertheless.
-- I fly, therefore I am, ...... happy :^) !
John Biggs
- Craig Rodgerson
-
This promises to be the biggest BORK issue ever. You guys keep contributing such useful material. These past two months have seen a noticeable decline in flammable postings. This month we are also including some material from the KiteBuggy email list. We have a tremendous resource here and now you can search through all of the issues together. Keep up the good work!
The multiple issue keyword search can be found here - Search all issues
Once again I'm indebted to the faithful BORK staff:
- Craig Rodgerson
- Peter C. Hugger Editor
This page is a summary of postings on the rec.kites Usenet news group that our editors believe to be interesting and useful. Opinions expressed in these postings are not those of KiteLife Magazine or its staff.
Places to Fly Content:
- Buffalo NY
- Oregon
Buffalo NY
Anyone flying in or around Buffalo this sunday the 5th? I'd like to get some flying in and don't know where the kiters congregate. TIA Steve
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I will not be there but maybe this would be of some help!
http://hometown.aol....glks1index.html
May the wind allways be over your shoulders!
Donald Hansberger
Oregon
Coming to Portland next week and I have a couple of questions:
1. What sort of winds can I look to experience?
2. Does said wind hold into the evening hours (IE after 6 or 7 local time)?
3. Any local rules and regs. about night flying?
4. Good places to fly?
5. Where are some good local shops?
I'm coming there on business and will work though the day until early evening and will be looking for a kite fix after hours. I'll have one afternoon to goof off and would like to find a decent shop to buy myself a birthday present. Coming from Houston I feel like I'm going to kite heaven.
Wind at your back,
Bruce
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Welcome to the neighborhood!
The Fall weather here in Oregon has been just spectacular. Its warm, breezy, and we've had fine sunsets around 7 or so.
Urban flying is always tricky. Most of the locals go to Delta Park (north of downtown off I-5) or Blue Lake (out 84 toward the Gorge).
You may have to compete with the soccer folks at Delta and I don't know what time Blue Lake closes. But there are no "regulations" about night flying.
The best shop in town is Paint the Sky over on the west side. Phone 503-222-5096. Say hello to Jon and Jill. And if you have an afternoon free, treat yourself to a drive to the coast. It's about 90 minutes to Seaside or Cannon Beach. *Lots* of kite stores there.
Check my web page to a directory of shops (listed on a state-by-state basis).
Have a fine visit!
dg Otis Oregon
Connecticut
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My daughter {11} and my beloved kite got loose and disappeared into the marsh at Hamonassette State park last weekend. After hours of searching,and drying of the tears, we finally gave up. We have been to every toy store, mall and deparment store in the immediate area and no one has kites in stock {seasonal being the excuse HA!}. I have found several great websites but I would rather hold it in my hand before I buy. If anyone can help suggesting a store I would be very appreciative. We are in central Ct but willing to travel.
Thanx in advance
Dan
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Stupid Question, but did you consider going back to the place you bought it?
You might even give us a clue what kite it was so we might help you find a source for it.
Sorry you cried so much in front of your daughter. May I refer you to Roger Maddy's TP kite plans since you seem to be so kite sensitive.
Color My Sky, Ellen
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My daughter {11} and my beloved kite got loose and disappeared into the marsh | at Hamonassette State park last weekend. After hours of searching,and drying of | the tears, we finally gave up. We have been to every toy store, mall and |deparment store in the immediate area <snip> God knows I'm a self confessed kite junkie but I think I would have looked a little longer for my child before I went to buy a replacement kite ;o) Only kite store I could locate in CT was Mystic Kite Shop, 27-C Olde Mystic Village, Mystic CT 06355 Apparently you were flying a single line kite (?). You might visit www.intothewind.com not much for sale on their site, but you need to request a catalog. Nice selection of dual and single line kites. And of course you have to visit www.gwtw-kites.com the finest kite store on-line and tell Dan that I sent you (working him for discounts)!!! Whether you buy or not, these two resources will at least give you an idea of what's out there. So go check them out, and then PLEASE get back to looking for your kid!
-- Steve
- Craig Rodgerson
-
This promises to be the biggest BORK issue ever. You guys keep contributing such useful material. These past two months have seen a noticeable decline in flammable postings. This month we are also including some material from the KiteBuggy email list. We have a tremendous resource here and now you can search through all of the issues together. Keep up the good work!
The multiple issue keyword search can be found here - Search all issues
Once again I'm indebted to the faithful BORK staff:
- Craig Rodgerson
- Peter C. Hugger Editor
This page is a summary of postings on the rec.kites Usenet news group that our editors believe to be interesting and useful. Opinions expressed in these postings are not those of KiteLife Magazine or its staff.
Reviews Content:
- Babytana
- XBow
- Precision
- Legacy
- AirFX
- Passion
- Eclipse
- Fanatic
- Obcession
- Lithium
- WindDance
- Nitro
Babytana
Hi Partners. I am curious about the HQ Babytana - No Wind Kite. Does anybody has any experience with this little fun-kite that he or she wants to share? All input are welcome.
In the Wind Peter
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Hi, I have one of these. I bought it as my first indoor kite because it is cheap and because i love its shape (it is a mini-Tramontana). For me is better for light wind outdoor, it is much more fun. Indoor i have to run backwards a lot to keep it in the air but it is nice also (and it helps to keep you in shape :-). I fly it indoor with 4 m lines and outdoor with 10 m lines. If you want to fly with light winds in a small place, it is perfect. For indoor there are better kites but I purchased the Babytana because: - They are very dificult to find in Spain (so, spare parts are a problem). - A good indoor kite it is 3 or 4 time more expensive than the Babytana. - It is almost unbreakable. When you learn to fly indoor (at least, in my case) you go to the ground very often. Good Indoor kites have very light and delicate carbon shafts, so you must expend a lot of money in spare shatfs. The only drawback for indoor it is its size, it is a kite with too quick reactions. My next indoor kite will be an HQ Geenie, but first i must convince my wife!!
Regards & Buen Viento
Pedro
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Not really a true "indoor" kite. Yes, you can keep it in the air indoors but it's harder work than it need be. Take it outside in a gentle breeze and it's in its element.
Quick and fun. Trickable if you keep inputs down to the absolute minimum. Mine sits above the sunscreen in my car so that I need never be without it. Had a lot of airtime and has withstood quite a few near ground experiences.
Bought mine from KMD in Gothenburg.
Mike.
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I've had my baby Tana for close to four years and love the little guy. We used to get a group of us (6) and all with our little kites and me playing tag with the little guy because it is so quick. It a lot of fun and I fly it on 50 lb. 50 ft lines with no trouble here in San Diego California, USA. It does axels and snap stalls, side slides and much more with the right touch and pracitce. Well worth the investment and a Blast to fly.
Ellen M.
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Hi!
It's a relive to find out that it isn't a true indoor kite. I've had mine for a couple of months and I need a bit more then a breeze to keep it up. Otherwise its fun although to fast for me as a beginner.
Thomas
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If you find the BabyTana (or any other stunt kite) too fast and thus difficult to control try using longer and/or heavier lines. This will both actually and apparently slow the kite down at the expense of a little bit of responsiveness.
Whilst I fly the BabyTana on 6m lines for "between the buildings" flying I let other people try it out on 12m+ at least.
Mike.
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Great little kite. A blast outdoors in less than 5mph winds. Move the bridle tow point up 1/4" and it will work well indoors. Mine gets flown alot on 8' to 35' lines, indoors, and out. The small size makes it a real challenge to fly because the hand movements are so small, and your hands need to stay close together to fly well. There are other kites, like the Pi, and Indoor Wren that make a better small (compared to HQ's Genie or Prism's Vapor) kite to learn indoor flying with. They don't trick as well, but are considerably larger than the Babytana. Also they don't break the bank. Durable solid carbon rods. The Pi goes less than $80 and the Indoor Wren is about $120 (US) WT
XBow
I bought a 3D-prism which proves to be to quick for a beginner like me. So I am looking for a bigger slower freestyle and trick-kite that can also have more wind. I love the looks of an X-bow. Would this be a good choice? Has anyone experience with this kite or should I buy a Jam session milennium or a prism fanatic instead?
Jacques
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Hi.
I am a relative beginner (has not done any tricks yet - but my kite have done some i think). Anyway. I just got me at Jam Session Millenium, and i like it a lot. So my bit of advice is; The Jam is a pretty good kite for beginners, but also a good kite to grow with. At least thats what i feel and have heard others say.
In the Wind /Peter Kalmar, Sweden.
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Hi Jacques,
I'm flying the x-bow now for a half year. it's a pretty low-wind kite, wich enabled me to do a lot of trix. I've bought it because of the promised dead-launch capability, but I'm afraid, on grass it must be very windy (usualy too windy for the x-bow) to achive a dead launch easily. may be it's my fault... (if someone could give me an advice i would be happy!) Never the less I don't regret the deal, because of its low-wind quality combined with durability and good handcraftsship. up to 3 bft it's real fun to fly, above 3 bft the kite becomes a bit noisy. Since you have already a low-wind kite, the jam or the fanatic would expand you "wind range". if you insist on flying below 1-2 bft. the x-bow is a good decision i guess.
hope that help's
ralph
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Hi Ralph MY thanks to you and the other guys who answered my question. I am a bit surprised with your reaction since HQ and other sites mention the X-bow as a kite to fly from 2-5 bft and with a preference for short lines. The fact that it already fly's at 1Bft is very good news. If it's only fun to fly until 3 Bft is bad news. Is it not possible to adapt this kite to harder wind? Maybe the length of the lines has something to do with the kites behavior in harder wind. Just a beginners guess. Since the 3D has also the possibility of a dead launch I looked upon the web to find some information about this technique. There I found out that it is not enough to pull the kite straight to you. You can find out yourself if you click on the following link. dead launch This afternoon somebody told me : forget the X-bow, the Jam Session Milennium and the prisms Fanatic. Go for the level 1999 made by level one. Its getting more and more confusing but I buy in a week. Exciting!
Jacques
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Hi Jacques
Don't throw away the 3D just yet. I have one and it's great fun to fly when the wind drops to 1 or 2 mph - they're a lot slower in light winds.
Either the Jam Session Millennium or the Fanatic would suit your experience. Both kites are meek and mild enough to be flown by an absolute beginner or someone with a little more experience like youself, but can also be enjoyed by those with far more flying hours under their belts.
My preference is for the Fanatic but that's because it was the first kite I bought and I prefer the way it flies compared the the JS.
I don't know anything about the suitability of the X-Box.
Regards James
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Another option - since you already have a 3d for light 1-3mph winds - and want something that is bigger and slower (good idea when learning) would be the Prism Legacy. It's a full sized 8ft kite, 150.00 retail, "UNBREAKABLE" while learning. Later you can upgrade to the optional high tech frame once you've advanced. I would recommend this kite over the Fanatic for a beginner. The Fanatic is very fast for a beginner. Slower kites help you see what you're doing and give you time to react properly. The Legacy does all the tricks - and is as stable as a 747 in a fade. My friend puts mine in a fade and I do circles around it (multiple line wraps) with the Elixir. Try and demo all the suggested kites if you can.
James Hodson
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Jacques, I'm very new to sport kiting also, but I have to tell you that I really like my Fanatic and Alien. I've crashed them both quite a lot, and they do take some abuse. I've been learning axels, fades, etc. with them too, and, though I can't compare them to other kites from experience, I've been really happy with them. Another idea: wait for the new Prism Legacy which is just now going out to stores. I think I may get one--supposed to be great for beginners because apparently truly unbreakable. Very big--8ft.--slow and graceful (so I hear). Plus when you get better, you can upgrade by adding a UL spar set made for especially for the Legacy, and then you'll have a huge Prophecy-like high performance kite. It's all over the web--check out the Prism web site for cool photos. Anyway, two cents from a fellow beginner. . .
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Oh yeah--and one other thing: Windchasers on South Padre Island will be getting some Legacies shortly, and will be selling them as their first-choice beginner's kite. They have a good web site:
http://www.kiteshop.com/index.html
Precision
Hi fellow kiters!
I'm competing in presicion in later this month, and I'm looking to update my kitebag accordingly.
I have broken it down to the following alternative kites:
--> Keops (don't remember maker)
--> Tramontana 2000 (HQ)
--> Tramontana HP (HQ)
--> Matrix (Flexifoil)
Which one would you choose if....
1 - price was no object
2 - you opted for value for money
PLS any Info on Legacy kite by Prism
DIVIDERDIVIDERDIVIDER
The AM2 by PBSK (Peter Betancourt Sport Kites) - a true Old Skool precision kite, handcrafted from start to finish in the very latest of materials including the SkyShark PT series framesets, Chikara Ripstop Nylon or .4 oz Ultralight Ripstop Nylon as well as many of his signature innovations.
One of the nicest things about Peter's kites is their "lastability". They just keep flying and flying, year after year as competitors throughout the states can attest to.
The AM2 is a full size low aspect ratio kite, that has a good amount of pull in even the furthest corners of the wind window. Peter took first place in the AKA Nationals flying his AM1, and he was competing against some of the best flyers in the country. He's told me that this kite lends confidence to even the most inexperienced of competitors & is capable of taking you thru all the paces Precision will put you thru.
Another nice feature is that this kite is available in SUL, UL, Standard and Vented with little to moderate change in performance qualities. It's really a superb kite for both beginners and experienced flyers alike. Oh yeah, it's available in your choice of color combinations, and if you would like a unique graphic appliqued on it, no problem. That's what he does!!!
Check it out at http://www.sportkite.com or you can email him at peter@sportkite.com.
Color My Sky, Ellen
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Or LITHIUM from Atelier Kites William HOUDBINE Atelier Kites (Manufacture) La Tuilerie 89440 l'Isle sur Serein France Tel 33 3 86 33 85 63 Fax 33 3 86 33 91 20
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The Imperial made by Jeff Howard of Precision Kite Company flys as straight as any kite I've ever flown. Snap 90° turns are rock solid without any oversteer. The Imperial's configuration is very different that other kites. It's very eye appealing!
Troy Gunn
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Hi SvenA,
The Tramontana 2000 is an updated version of the Tramontana and comes in Std and HP versions. I would not go for last years version but get the 2000 version if you get one. Chris Matheson made some significant improvements to the kite. It used to have a wingwrap problem that is now gone and now comes with an two bridles that are interchangeable, a standard three point and a turbo bridle. I like the three point for precision and the turbo to play around with it. The turbo makes the kite more tricky.
I use the Tram 2000 for precision and love it. It tracks real nice and comes out of the corners and loops really clean. I highly recommend it.
See ya, Bill Rogers
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Sven, This kite isn't on your list, but one at least worth checking into. It's called the AM2 by PBSK http://www.sportkite.com/ . I personally have the AM1 and find this kite to be one of the best precision kites I own (or ever will). It flies lines so straight I think Leonardo da Vinci would be impressed. The craftsmanship is beyond words and the bridle design keeps this kite in line without any little wobble when coming out of a turn or in higher winds. This a tool you may want to do more research and learn about so you can come to your own conclusion if you want to add it to your list or not. Best of luck on your search. -Andy
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Bill,
Here in the midwest USA, The 'TNT' by Skyburner is used by many competitors for precision. I do have an affiliation with Skyburner, so as you can imagine, I am a bit biased. However, the TNT *is* a tracking machine that is perfect for precision flying. The Skyburner folks really know framing too, as they are the main distributors of Sky Shark rods. Check out thier website - http://www.skyburner.com
-Mark Kunoff
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Hi Sven The Flexi Matrix is one of, if not the, best precision kites you can buy. Without the 'turbo' bridle and with a little bit a patience adjusting the bridle I've never come across anything to match this. I own 4, but apart from that usual disclaimers.
Regards Chas
BTW: They come in really nice colour combos as well.
Legacy
Has anybody tried the new Legacy by Prism. I'm an intermediate flyer and want a much better and more stable second kite over my current 4 foot kite. I am thinking about either the Fanatic or the Legacy. Any or all info on the Legacy or other recommendable kites will be appreciated.
David
...or maybe you' choose other kites?!!
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Good choices in kites. Fanatic is a bit quicker and more trick oriented kite than the Legacy. Since you mentioned stable I'll recommend the Legacy. It will run you a bit more money since you get the heavy rods with it and will want the light rods also (about another $100usd). The heavy rods give you higher wind range (6 to 25mph) vs. (3 to 20mph) with the light rods. The Legacy is a big kite for Prism with a wing span greater than the Illusion or Elixir. With the lighter rod set the tricks are smooth and graceful, some where in-between the Prophecy, and Illusion. With the heavy rod set, you can use the kite to train new fliers, and not worry about breaking rods. This kite should be a kite to consider if you want to start a team but don't want to spring for Prophecii :^) WT
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David,
Don't sell yourself short. I have four Prism kites: 3-D, Alien, Fanatic, and Stylus. My favorite by far is the Alien. Not only is it "easier" to trick, but it can make a lot of "unanticipated" landings and still stay together. Not so with my Fanatic, something comes undone almost every time I crash it! My recommendation is not to go with the Fanatic.
Good luck,
Bob
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Hi Bob
I too am a bit of a Prism junkie. I own a Fanatic, a 3D and an Illy.
The Fanatic was my first sports kite and, as such, suffered its fair share of "unanticipated landings", ie crashes. I have never broken a rod on crashing although I have wrecked a few due to my own stupidity and impatience. Kites don't like be tugged around when one tip is firmly stuck in soft ground. I guess that I'll never learn that lesson. Personally, I'm glad that the kite sometimes fall apart on heavy crashes, it stops serious damage to the kite such as the spine piercing the nose.
You seem to imply that the Fanatic is difficult to trick; nothing could be further from the case. I flew my Fanatic today in winds that varied from just_above_zero to nine or ten mph. In those winds Axels, cascades, slots, 540s, backspins etc were a doddle, although I will agree that tricks are a little harder when the wind picks up. The kite speeds up quite a lot in heavier winds. The Alien (which I have flown but don't own) comes into its own in those conditions.
Anyway, David was asking about the Legacy (which I haven't flown) and not the Fanatic. But I couldn't let you get away with your scurrilous comments about my mad little kite. :-)
If you weren't implying that the Fanatic is hard to trick... then sorry.
Regards James
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The Fanatic is quite a hot-rod and extremely fast. It's does trick easily - one of the few kites that will easily do double axels, flap-jacks etc. Though probably a bit less trickable than the Alien - and certainly the Elixir which has become the king of tricks for me. I guess to recommend - I'd like to know if your a new intermediate flyer or a experienced intermediate flyer ;-) or to rephrase - "intermediate covers a wide skill level". If you don't do tricks at present and wish to learn them - any of the above kites would do. The Alien needs a bit more wind than the others... so consider conditions in your area. If it's always strong - the Alien might be the best choice, if medium - then the others would be considered. If you are still crashing at times. (and we often do when trying to learn new tricks no matter what our skill level) then the Legacy is a strong contender. It's VERY precise in it's tracking and due to it's large size is slow and graceful. A slower moving kite has always been helpful to me when learning new tricks - you don't have to react as quickly and the kite moves slow enough to allow you to see what it's doing in unison to your movements. An unbreakable kite is certainly a BIG PLUS... and what's nice is when you've progressed you can always order the advanced frame set and reframe it in something lighter. It is always best to 'test' a kite if you can - but if you can't... consider some of the above info. (your winds, desired speed of kite, amount of crashing you'll do, etc.). I have much experience with all the above kites and for my intermediate skill level I'd opt for the Elixir. But to many of my friends who still make lots of unplanned landings I've recently recommended the Legacy for them. The Fanatic and Alien both handle bigger winds without much pull - both are very fast and trick incredibly well. But consider that they are both fast n furious fliers. These recommendations are all with the thought that you're out to learn and perform tons of tricks - if you also like a precise flier that tricks as well and is a good all around kite - the Illusion is always a class act and is hard to beat.
hope this helps. R]
AirFX
I own an Aerie ( I hope I am spelling this right ) AirFX stunt kite and I have a question to anyone who uses this kite (and probably the person who built it, thanks!). I am wondering about adjusting the bridles because there seems to be several options available to me. The kite has three knot for me to attach my lines to, as well as an extra top spreader. What will these things do for me? I have played around with some of the settings, but my skills as a pilot are relatively minimal ( I can fly precision, but can't for the life of me do an axel ).
I am also having trouble getting this kite to snap-stall. Could it be the way I set up the kite?
Is there a secret to flying this kite? Maybe it is me, but I have an easier time making the kite do what I want when I fly the Comp Edge and Skynasaur Tracer.
Maybe I just need more air time...
Any feedback?
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Tony, in the AirFX you have a very fine precision and team kite. I believe that Captain Eddies flew them for a number of years. Big, fairly slow, majestic, and rock-steady, they give no quarter in cutting square corners. I still like mine a lot, although I must admit that getting a nice _flat_ axel was always a bit of a challenge for me with it -- trick kite it ain't (nor was it intended to be).
There is an informative instruction sheet that came standard with the kite, or at least mine which is circa 1996 I believe. The adjustment knots on the bridle are for tuning the degree of radicalness (if I can use that word in the same sentence as AirFX
. I tend to leave mine alone and get to know the kite that way, but that's me.The longer of the two upper spreaders is used in conjunction with moving the standoffs inboard at the lower spreaders to flatten out the sail billow, increasing mobility somewhat, at the expense of precision. As Ken McNeil, the designer, says, "Experiment, mix and match, have fun!" I am quite certain he was talking about the kite
On the snap stall, it does a beauty. One of the highlights of the kite, really. Don't rush it, slower and more deliberate on the hand movements than some kites. And it really cries out for longer lines, say 100 -125's anyways, to bring out the most in the kite, imo.
I continue to be impressed at how the standard version handles the low end of the wind spectrum -- 1 1/2 or 2 mph and it is quite happy when tuned for it. I put mine away over 10.
There is an informative comparative review discussing the AirFX on the rec.kites review page (some salt should be used in assessing the review):
http://web.northnet....sion_kites.html
As for airtime, one can never get too much.
Hope this helps some.
Michael
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The extra upper spreader is for wind conditions, short for low, long for high (if I recall). This is a difficult kite to axel due to the large wing surface and the dynamics of the sail. As for the knot positions, this is also an adjustment for wind conditions, closer in for light winds, farther out for strong. It takes alot of practice to get it rite, but is a sweet kite to fly.
Allen
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Michael is spot-on. IMO, throw out the longer top spreader, drop the towpoint of the bridle a tad, and have fun. The FX is a difficult kite to do a real flat axel with, unless your name is Barresi. However.... I have yet to fly a kite that tracks and turns better, side-slides smoother, or does the grandaddy of all tipstabs. Just don't expect it to be a Psycho. We (Capt. Eddie's) had a wonderful '97 season with them. The low wind capability of that kite saved the bacon several times.
BTW, Ken McNeill is back to producing kites. Check out http://www.bluemoonkites.com for info on his first new kite since the Aerie days, the "Mojo". Talked to him tonight, the first 3 serial number kites are sold, numbers 4-10 will be available Oct. 1. The prototypes were flown all last weekend at the USAF Museum festival, comments were positive.
Mike Gillard
Passion
Hi all, I have seen the HQ Passion and it seems a good choice. It has three standoff positions to make it more precise or more trickable. I have seen this kite in precision flight and it looks great, but I want to know how good it is for Freestyle. Any comments? Thanks & Regards. Buen Viento Pedro Fuentes
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The HQ Passion is not the best at precision and not the best at freestyle. It is however a very good combination of both. It also has a very good low wind range.
You also have a good amount of bridle adjustments to play with, so that you can dial in more of one then the other.
The HQ Passion is one of my favorites. It has a place in my bag for sure.
Mike Reagan
Eclipse
I am thinking of buying a PRISM ECLIPSE. Does anyone have any impressions to share concerning this kite? All input appreciated.
In the Wind
Piero, ITALIA.
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Excelent Kite , you can't go wrong.
Good luck, Steve
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I don't actually own any Prisms but I have flown a few now. The Eclipse has been my favourite so far, I found it had a reassuring solid feel, responsive, was very trick-able and could be thrown around in a way I couldn't get away with on an Illusion. The standard ones are framed in Avia .2200's so they're pretty durable and cheap to replace. Nice kite.
-- Ian Newham
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This has become my favorite kite. I have a regualr Eclipse, an SUL Eclipse and a Total ecplise
these axle like there is no tomorrow.
Erdoboy
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A very ignored kite with all the hot stuff coming out of Prism lately. A great kite and still a hot flyer, you can be different by flying an Eclipse but not left out. My wife has a 98 with the Turbo Bridle, and so far it will do all the tricks I can do with my Elixir. I don't Backspin yet, but flapjacks, flicflacs, mutex, slotmachines, all the axles, etc....
WT
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I have an older one, one of the first versions, so maybe my experience is not inline with what those that own the current one is, however I would bet the better parts are.
It is a good kite, well constructed, fairly tough, and flies well. It is easy to fly. Not exactly a trick kite, however capable of doing most of the normal tricks. Not a light wind kite, however flies in fairly low wind, not a high wind kite, however not much to worry about in moderate winds either.
I did have a spar slip out and punch a hole in the kite which I had to mend, the fittings could be a little better, but then they are on the newer versions.
An excellent kite, especially for those that are new to the hobby and want something that stands a little above the rest and don't want to sell the farm to buy it.
Perry
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I believe the Eclipse is close to the end of it's life cycle at Prism, probably due to the Fanatic and Elixir. Still, I dearly love mine, and not just out of sentimentality. As an all around fun kite, it is really great. It tricks really well, and was far ahead of it's time in it's ability to do lazy susans, fades, and flic flacs.
The only complaint I hear about the kite is that it doesn't cut nice squares easily, so you probably won't win many precision competitions with it. But if all you want is a kite to have fun with, and do most of the current tricks, it's a winner.
Mike M.
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No way - the Eclipse is a killer kite - what I like best about it is it's a trick machine but very different from the Fanatic and Elixir. When flying all day - I like to change to a different kite and a different "feel" after several hours with the same kite. I don't feel any of the other kites in the Prism line up is anything like the Eclipse... no need to retire it. After being around for a fairly long time - it may have lost it's hype - but not it's strong following of loyal pilots. It's still a favorite of mine!
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My reply was that the person who wrote the above quote is crazy. The Eclipse is a wonderful kite to fly and is nothing like the Elixir or Fanatic so there is no reason to remove it from the market. I've not heard any such plans at all from Mark. Nor do I expect to hear any such thing.
Save away - it's a great kite, still a favorite of mine since it's so different from the others I fly that it's a refreshing change.
Fanatic
Hello David
I do not own one of these kites, but I flew one at the Berkley festival, and I have a friend who has an older one. My impression of this kite, is that I dont care much for it. It seems to track fairly well and it does a nice snap stall and it can even trick with some work. It is the amount of work that I dont care for. Talking to Mark at ther Berk fest, he says that he has re-designed this kite every year it has come out. To me that says that it has never been quite right. I just dont care for it. I would recommend a Midi(one of my favorites, although I do break sticks in soft sand), in the same size and profile range.
Good Luck Good Wind Krazy Kat
Obcession
Hi
I am about to buy a Obsession 99 can some one tell me if it is a good puchase ? Mabey tell me what is better for the same money.
Morten
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See www.kitelife.com. The latest issue has a review on the '99 Obsession.
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Hi Morten!
I've recently got the Obsession 99, and I think it's great! I'm just starting into trick flying, and though it doesn't hand the tricks to you on a plate, once you get the hang of it does just what you want it to (although wing-wraps are still a problem for me..) I've not much experience with other kites, but I have flown an older Obsession, and there's no comparison!
Best winds,
-Robin-
Lithium
If anyone's got any copies of ne reviews of the Atelier Lithium or excess, could they buzz them to me via email, or post them on rec.kites??
cheers
Robin Smith
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Hi all!
Lithium review on....
http://www.kites.org...hiumreview.html
-- Best Winds! SvenA
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URL : http://members.xoom.com/SAsKites
MAIL: aerialis@kites.org / sva@nordak.no
WindDance
Hi All
I'm a newbei to kite flying and love it. I'm an American living and working overseas, mostly in Germany. I have a couple of kites now, my first was a Flexfoil Stacker (6') , also an Erasor (I know probably spelt wrong) and I have bought a couple cheap kites for fun (Which really aren't )
I was interested in the Winddancer made by SeattleAirGear. Has anyone flown them, and if you know how does it handel compared to the flexfoil.
Thanks
Bill
PS: Thanks to the group, this has been a wealth of information. It's hard to find english publication here on kiting.
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Hi Bill,
I've only flown the WindDance 2, it's a fun kite -very quick, I felt it performed better than any soft 2 line kite I've flown. It's different than a Flexi, whether it's a 'better' different depends on your preferences. I liked it better than a Flexi Stacker, FWIW.
For a very exhaustive overview of the WindDance series, here's the manufacturer's address:
http://www.seattleairgear.com/
Steve
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Hi Bill,
While in Hawaii this summer (hee hee hee), I bought a Windancer I for my 9-year old son and a Windancer III for myself.
In a good wind the Windancer I was VERY fast. My son (65lbs) just loved being pulled around on his BUTT (yeehah!). The control is very good and responds nearly as well as a traditional dual-line delta. This is certainly easier to fly than my 8' flexi which requires loooong arms to pull a tight turn... It may be just a bit small/heavy for light wind. Solo launching is quite easy...even after a crash.
I found the Windancer III just a bit frustrating. Its nearly impossible to solo launch. Kept getting tangled in the bridles. The pull of the III (~6 ft) is comparable to my 8ft flexi, but turning is much easier. Tight turns are similar to tranditiona dual-line (about 6-8 inches of pull vs 3-4 ft for my flexi). The flexi is MUCH faster that the II, however, and that may be important to you. There seems to be alot of drag due to all of the bridle lines on the Windancer.
One note. Both kites flew POORLY for the first 10-20 minutes or so. I verified the bridle settings to be properly set for the conditions. After this initial break-in things were just fine.
Conclusion, for my son the I is a perfect introduction to power kiting!. I am mildly disappointed with the III. I must say I would rather fly my flexi on a high wind day for the speed! When I want more power I'll go to my Quad25 or quad 3.5. Not sure where the III fits in just yet... I need more air time...
Good luck!
Mark
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That's why I went for the WDII...boring compromise all the way <G>
Have you tried adjusting the bridle settings for speed in a steady wind, to set them forward rather than back?
I do think that the WD kites are suited best for their extreme handling, which as you say rivals deltas.
I have a WindDance 2. It's the kite I fly all the time. The other day I flew a couple of my deltas, and it was fun, because it was different, but I still prefer the WindDance. But I have always had a "soft spot" for foils (so to speak<G>)
Interestingly, I could fly the deltas better than before because of the confidence I gained with the WindDance.
I also have a Thunderfoil 6', another soft foil. There is no comparison in performance between the WD and the TF.
As far the difference between the WD and Flexis, I have only flown a flexi once, but found that because the lines are attached right at the ends, larger hand/arm movements are needed to flip the kite aroud than something like the WD. I can literally turn the WD on its tip several times in quite high wind, with no collapse in steady air. It will do very sharp squares and other maneuvres quite uncannily with only a couple of inches of hand twitch. It has a clever bridle setup that allows easy setting up for varying flyer/wind/wants combinations. This allows adjustment to stop overflying and collapse in even the most dirty (downwind) flying conditions)
I have flown it in anything from walking speed to 30mph +. At high winds it's a real socket wrencher <G>. In low winds it's a challenge, but if the air is clean, you can have an enjoyable time.
The kite is not a trick kite, and Seattle are at pains to let you know this <G>. It does excellent flying stunts, but because it is soft, you can't do ground tricks with any ease. For obvious reasons, soft foils do not fly backwards (trick turn with inner wing in reverse etc) very well
Like a Flexi, it pulls fairly hard. It also accelerates a great deal into the power envelope. This is where differs from most deltas.
Unlike a Flexi, its flying characteristics can be altered significantly with the bridle. You can go to the ridiculous in both directions, from stall to overfly.
Launching is a bit of a PITA. A Flexi can be laid down and the spar will keep it down until takeoff, usually. This thing sort of flops about all over the place, or takes off without warning. I ended up by settling on a couple of pieces of fglass rod about 3/8" and about 1 metrer long. Stick them into the ground about as far apart as the lines/bridle and lay the kite up against them. Then go back to the handles and launch "up the ramp". In a high wind, NEVER walk back holding the strings with the kite lying on the ground. It WILL take off from a completely collapsed condition (a "ground trick," by the way that often impresses onlookers, who are of course convinced that the piece of rag about 120' away is now completly RS <G>). If the wind is not strong enough to tumble the kite on the ground, then takeoff is not going to happen.
But if you can get the kite to tumble, it _wants_ to fly.
It would not be easy to stack a WD, as like most soft foils there are bridle bits all over the place.
I have had only one bridle tangle, caused by my trying to relaunch after a messy prang. It was not hard to unravel. however, bridle tangles are a worry, when compared to a Flexi/delta.
My first flight was a bit disappointing. I was in dirty air, did not know the kite and ket getting it collapsing. It did recover from collapse in the air very well (another good looking trick<G>). I then flew a delta in the same air and it went straight to the ground in an eddy. Moved to cleaner air, learnt to fly and adjust the WD, and have since been more than happy.
I live in Australia. I bought my WD from a vendor in the US. WD themselves seem to be somewhat at odds with their vendors. I do not know who is to blame here, but I do know that Seattle are VERY....ummmm.... excited? about their product However, they probably offer the best deal on their kites. Last time I looked they were offering significant discounts to offset import duties in other countries, as well as good post rates etc. The dealer I went through was very patient and helpful, and came to the party as well as he could with pricing, but I would still have been better to go to Seattle money-wise, and I shouldn't think the guy I bought from was very excited about the untold riches he would not have made from the sale.
Nitro
I am looking for feedback on the Nitro. Any help.
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Hi Richard,
I bought a L'Atelier Nitro in August at the Cleethorpes Kite festival.
I was looking for a 'good' kite on which to learn tricks and the Highwaymen recommended either the Nitro or the Benson Gemini.
Young Sean (?sp) Turpin demo'd both for me and on his opinion I opted for the Nitro (also I was buying a Flexi stacker and pennies were limited !!).
I am by no means an expert flier but I can tell you what I've learnt so far.
I have the standard model on 75' lines - I find it needs a fair bit of wind to get going (as you'd expect - about -5-8 mph I'd guess) - it's a 3/4 size kite so it can cope with some high wind speeds but at the higher speeds it *really* pulls - it is quite quick with higher winds and almost impossible to snap stall (well I can't anyway) so it's trick capability at higher wind speeds seems limited.
I think there's a small optimum wind range of about 12-18 mph where it can excel at tricks - Sean Turpin had no trouble pulling off lazy susans, flic-flacs and fades (in fact he said he was going to get one). I think I've just about mastered axels with it (as I said I am a beginner). It's a nice 'floaty' kite in the right wind and I think it's a good learner vehicle and I certainly enjoy flying it.
I don't think it's a good precision kite but being as I haven't flown a real precision kite I'd better not say too much.
Only downer is that it seems prone to wing wraps and is a bit fragile - I haven't crashed mine as such but I've broken one leading edge spar and 4 bottom spreaders - mostly trying straight forward ground recoveries after a wing wrap - but this could be my hamfistedness of course. I've put a trick line on mine now (wasn't supplied) and this helps a bit.
All in all (IMHO) an inexpensive good trick kite on which to learn your trade before moving onto bigger and better things (Mr Benson here I come......)
HTH
-- Brent Walker
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I've found it depends on the flyer and style of flying desired.
The Nitro is a relatively quick kite and should be flown as such. It's not intended as a crossover kite as such. If you are looking for precision and trickability, then the XS by L'Atelier would have been a better choice for me. It is slightly larger and will do all the tricks ( as shown in the "its a trick out" at Hackney), however, like most things there is a trade off and so it is easier to perform the " tricks" with the Nitro.
With regards to breakages, this is the nature of the sport, as yet I have not found many kites which are inately more likely to break spars than others, ( although they do exist).
In mitigation, the Nitro is a good all round perforner leaning more towards the spontaneous/trick side of flying than premeditated precision. However, I would not say it is a kite that is a precursor to top level trick flying as it will quite happily perform all the current repertoire.
Having said all that, it's a case of each to there own when it comes to kite choice. I must also say that I am a sponsored L'Atelier pilot, though this is through my choice, rather than just more free gear.
My best advice to you is to go see the Highwaymen and try one.
Stephen Hoath
- Craig Rodgerson
-
This promises to be the biggest BORK issue ever. You guys keep contributing such useful material. These past two months have seen a noticeable decline in flammable postings. This month we are also including some material from the KiteBuggy email list. We have a tremendous resource here and now you can search through all of the issues together. Keep up the good work!
The multiple issue keyword search can be found here - Search all issues
Once again I'm indebted to the faithful BORK staff:
- Craig Rodgerson
- Peter C. Hugger Editor
This page is a summary of postings on the rec.kites Usenet news group that our editors believe to be interesting and useful. Opinions expressed in these postings are not those of KiteLife Magazine or its staff.
Kite Stuff Content:
- Sleeving
- Quick Release
- Splicing Loops
- Long Stacks
- Line Lengths
- Kevlar
- Zenith Tuning
- Set Up
- Cold Spars
- Kite Lights
- Flexifoils
- Box Kite
- Circoflex
- Strap Knot
- Fighters
- Oversteer
- TIM
- Sticky Spars
Sleeving
Whoo, another question...
Is there any simple way to get sleeving onto spectra lines without a sleeving kit? I have the small "end sleeves" where the larks heads go. (Or does anyone have any plans so I can make my own sleeving kit ? (c; )
Ta, Andy Savidge
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I go to a music store and by piano or guitar wire and make my own sleeving wires. I use #18 guitar wire. Be carefull tat you don't pinch the end of the sleeving wire too hard or the wire will break the wire. I use a metal washer or key ring to attach the end of the wire to. That way pulling the spectra thru the sleeving , is much easier.
Troy Gunn
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I use a large blunt needle. I have used one with a point but it is more difficult to keep it inside the sleeving. Seal the ends of the sleeving and insert the needle through the sleeving just past the sealed end. Feed the sleeving onto the needle and spectra.
If you or a friend play guitar. An easier way, I suspect, is to bend a small "E" string so that you have a long loop. Feed the solid end thru the sleeving, stick the spectra through the loop and pull it through the sleeving.
Good luck.
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I used an end of very thin piano wire. An old E guitar string ( metal for an acoustic guitar is fine to ) I cut of about 1 meter and bent it right in the middel, just with my hands. You can youse small pliers to make the bow a bit smaller but when you punch it to much the wire will break. Its better to make the bend so that the curve of the two ends are on the same side. I seal the ends of the sleeve with a sigaret lighter while the sleeve is on the wire. In that way the sleeve always stays open.
Jacques
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Hi, mi wife likes cross stitch and these needles are perfect for sleeving, they haven't point, about 1 mm diameter and big hole to attach the line, and that is cheaper than anything else! For me it works fine, at least.
Regards & Buen Viento Pedro
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Hi,
Do an archive search on dejanews - this topic comes up pretty frequently in rec.kites. Also I'd be surpirsed if someone out there hasn't put together a page about sleeving.
Many flyers (myself included) don't bother sleeving spectra nowadays except where abrasion is potentially a problem (such as at the attachment point on flexifoils). For 'normal' sports kite lines sleeving doesn't seem to add any strength to the knot, takes time to do, and sometimes contributes to line hang-ups. Once again, there was a lengthy thread on this a couple of months ago which you should be able to track down fairly easily.
All the best
Martin
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Thanks all,
rest assured I did try a couple of different things before I posted - my girlfriends sewing box is large but holds precious little in the way of tapestry/cross-stitch needles, and the only guitar in the house is acoustic and strung with gut or coiled strings. I'd assumed I was missing something important (apart from perserverance!)
It is only the ends I need to sleeve where I larkshead onto the bridle and handles - I tried unsheathed and it took an age to get the lines off as they'd tightened.
Anyway - 'nuff info, ta. I'll get some fuse wire tommorrow and try again.
Ta
Andy
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The trick with unsleevedlines is to make a little pigtail on the end of the loop, then you just need to pull the pigtail to undo the loop...
Thanks to Chris Matheson for telling me that one...
Dazzz
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Isn't that the coolest little trick? Peter showed me that one too. All his bridles come with the pigtailed leaders. (One of the few parts I get to make, hehehe)
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I'm intrigued, but not sure what you mean by this - do you mean some kind of slip knot? Or tied somehow "on the bight", so the knot is actually incomplete (in as much as the end isn't pulled completely through) but still quite safe because the tension holds it tight? I think I'll try the latter tommorrow.
Andy
Quick Release
Hi guys & gals,
I was reading the postings regarding sleeving and stuff to Peter (Betancourt). He hasn't sleeved his lines for years and designed this little built in feature on all his kite bridles. He asked me to post a picture of the method and instructions to this so easy it will slay you trick!
so anyway...if you would like to get away from sleeving those pesky lines once and for all cuz it's absolutely unneccessary with the great lines we have available these days, here's a tip for ya'll!
Enjoy - http://www.sportkite...uikrelease.html
Color My Sky, Ellen
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Wow that's a clever idea, I usually tie a handle in my loops (a loop on the loop if you see what I mean) but this is much more elegant. I change my power kites over too I think. I noticed that peter does two knots in the loop on his flying lines, anyone else do this?
Chris
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Hi Chris, Yah he always does the two overhand knots and flanges the tail so it can't slip thru. Nice observation!
Color My Sky, Ellen
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jolly neat!
I have one unsleeved 200lb lineset and can usually get it loose ok, but then I have long nails cos I 'play guitar' they're really hard to get loose when I fly my Sputnik on them ('I play guitar' is my excuse for having long well kept nails on one hand and short well kept nails on the other, I do actually play guitar now and then, but no enough to warrant such lovely nails :-) [for the ladies, yes they're so hard I can fly kites, do woodwork, raise 3 kids etc etc without breaking them]
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Thats a very simple and elegant solution to a knotty problem.! There are a couple of arguments for keeping your lines sleeved though.
I fly dual line so tend to sleeve my lines with a different colour for each side, so if I happen to put them away twisted, when it comes to set up I don't need to untangle them, but can attatch red to right and green to left (or whatever) and fly away knowing the kite isn't going to nosedive 'cos I've got the handles in the wrong hands. My other reason for sleeving is that some of my flying is done in the winter which tends to be cold and wet here in the UK. I believe a sleeved line is easier to handle with cold wet fingers than a thin unsleeved line.
I like the idea of the bridle being doubled back on itself and shall certainly start doing that 'cos it makes undoing a lot easier. Another tip I have picked up if you are still sleeving is to put an overhand knot in the end of the loop of the flying lines giving you something to get hold of when undoing.
Thanks for sharing your ideas with us Ellen -------- Wherever you may be, let your wind blow free? Stu
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I take a slightly different approach to releasing larks head knots. I use the the knotless (Know Not?) system to splice loops in my flylines. I tie small additional loops throught the main loop to act as a handle. The fly lines remain knot free and hopefully stronger. Here are some pics -
http://pluto.njcc.co...ma/temp/splice/
If the splicing technique appeals to you, check out the posting below titled 'Braiding Spectra'.
PCH
Try green florist's wire from an arts & crafts store. It's very thin and cheap. Works great!
Chris
Splicing Loops
Hi all, I've just returned from holiday where I had time to make up some line sets with line off the 1000' spools I bought from GWTW. On the packaging in mentions braiding loops into the end of lines rather than sleeving/knots, and says that they sell a 'braiding kit'. The blurb claims 90% strength retained. I can't find out any info for this on the net, not even on the Laserpro site - does anyone here have experience of this? How do you do it? Is it stronger than sleeve/knots or just knots? What's in the kit?
TIA,
Regards, Chas.
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Don't know about the kit, but I wouldn't do it.
If you fly on the edge regarding breaking strength, you'd be better off with some reduced breaking strength in the knots. If the load gets to high I rather have the lines break at the knots than somewhere in between...
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Hi Chas
This is called No Knot (Know Not?), Knotless, Spliced Loops, etc. I've been using this method for a few years. Something about the simplicity appealed to me. Detlef Beyer has the best instructions I've ever seen on how to do it. With that said it still won't make sense to you until you do it. It involves turning the hollow braided spectra inside out at one point and this just isn't easy to visualize. I can do 90lb and up with no problems. The equipment needed is either a piano wire fid or a tiny latch hook needle. You need to be able to slip the tool inside the hollow braid and pull the line back through itself twice. I was interested to see the stuff Ellen posted about PBSK bridles. I take a slightly different approach to releasing my larks head knots. I tie a small loop of line through the main loop. This additional loop acts as a handle to pull the knot apart. It works great and can even be done with gloves on. I know that others tie knots in the end of there main loops to provide this handle, but it seemed to be counter productive when the idea was to eliminate knots. Here are some pics -
http://pluto.njcc.co...ma/temp/splice/
I left the pics large to retain detail. I usually slip some dacron sleeving over the looped line to prevent chafing on the kite's trick line although it's not necessary. It also helps to keep your right from your left if you use different colors.... (c8
PCH
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Hoi
Florists have nice thin wire too..
PDJ
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Okay. I have been good. Lots of good posts to this thread and I have been sitting on my hands..... trying not to interrupt.....
Once upon a time in my irresponsible youth, I used to save my Ernie Ball Extra Slinky electric guitar .008" high E string to use as a splicing (sleeving) wire. The problem is, nickel guitar strings are plated. After very few uses, the plating would crack at the bend in the wire, and splicing would become quite a chore.
These days I meander down to the hardware store which gives me the choice of 28 gauge brass or 32 gauge steel wire. Both are small enough to use as a splicing tool. Although the wire is much softer that the guitar strings, it merely requires a slightly different technigue for successful results.
good heavens;gary engvall
Long Stacks
Has anyone worked with stacks with a large distance between kites?
I see the problem with linkage between the kites. But it would look spectacular if the individual kites were some distance apart (say 20' or more)
What woukld be/are the problems?
Any reply appreciated.
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Hi Nick, hi folks.
The idea in a stunt kites stack is to use the venturi effect that occurs between the kites. The result of this effect is that the air is accelerated because of the reduced space in between the kites. This increase of air velocity is the cause of a reduced pressure on the extrado (upper surface) of the kite sail (that's the phenomenon that allows airplanes to fly) for each kite having another kite behind it. This reduced pressure translate in increased lift. That's why many people fly stacks because the pull is much more than just adding the individual pull of the kites.
Too small a space will create too much turbulence and too much will not allow for this increase in pull. Plus, the stack may be unstable with the kites wandering independently and wobbling around too much.
My experiences so far are with Dynakite stacks (stack lines of about 31 inches and kites leading edge length of about 28 inches) and Azur's Reflexx 99 with stack lines exactly the same as the leading edge length.
Jack Rodger have a stack of 30 Dynakites with longer stack lines that fly very well. These stack lines are about 4 feet in length if my memory serves me well.
20 feet might be too much but, why not test it
Wind or no wind, fly for fun
Jean (Johnny) Lemire
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Me and a friend once staked flexifoil stackers about 20 ft apart - I can't rember how many we stacked. BUt stacking so far apart makes them handle so weird! They kind of snake around in the sky and you get about a 5 second lag between moving your arms and the kites following....good fun though.
Line Lengths
I'm a fairly competent flyer of a Stranger (and a new Gemini, yay!), and am starting to learn tricks. What sort of line lengths would people recommend? At the moment I fly both on 25m (75 feet) lines, but don't feel like I have enough feel of the kite.
Before I spend the evening hacking old lines to bits and making a big mess, what sort of line length do people recommend for when first starting out tricking? Are 10 or 15m (ie 30 to 45 feet) lines about right? Other than less wind, whats the downside of going very short?
Mark
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Hi Mark, When you are learning tricks 2 things come to mind regarding line length. (1) You need to have as much feel/feedback in your lines as possible so changing to the lightest weight lines for the wind strength and of your preferred length is critical, basically you want straight lines between you and the kite when you fly through the kites wind window. Any sag means less control. (2) Especially when learning it helps to fly on 30 - 40' if you are having trouble with a particular trick as you can actually see where you are making mistakes, once you have mastered the trick/s you may prefer to move back to 50 - 75' and throw in some sharp corners etc. in between tricks as this looks better IMO. Otherwise you may find innocent/ignorant bystanders offering to help you fly because they think there is something wrong with your kite if you just do trick after trick. Demonstrating control via landings, stalls, groundwork, etc. combined with sudden tricks and graceful precision really is pleasant to watch and shows that the kite has become an extension of your feeling/self. Hope this helps and, Goodwinds Steve McCormack
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Hi Mark,
I fly the Gemini on 50 - 75 ft lines. It gives mure time to recover from fades, backspins etc, and promotes a graceful style ..
--
Stay Popped,
Ed/
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Hi Mark,
The old line length question. I have to agree with Steve's post about using the lightest lines you can for the wind conditions. As for length, I like 75 to 80 foot lines. Using short lines 40 to 70 feet make's things happen very fast and it's hard to react to whats happening when your just starting out. I agree that you can see whats happening a lot easier but you might find it hard to move your hands that fast at first. On the other hand I find 75 to 80 feet to be ideal to work with, it's nice to have a large wind window to work with and things happen a little bit slower giving you more time to react to whats happening.
If you are trying to learn tricks to put them into routines for compititions you'll have to be able to do tricks with 125' lines plus.
Just my 2 cents ;-)
Axelman
Kevlar
Hi, I was just wondering what the deal with Kevlar lines is. I saw some page warning not to fly with them when other people were around. At first I thought it was b/c they were so strong they would hurt people but then I noticed that they come in the same weights as spectra. Then I saw someone talking about the fact that they have a higher melting point then spectra and they will brake other peoples lines. In that case, why doesn't everyone use them?? are they not as slick as spectra? do they stretch? what is the deal? Just curious.
WODEN
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Hoi
Kevlar type lines were the first generation of "super fibre" lines. Very low stretch, and a very high melting point, but with a rough texture.
Dyneema and spectra lines came somewhat later, same low stretch but much slicker, so most dual line flyers changed to the newer lines. With dymeema/spectra it's no problem making 10 loops and still be in control: with kevlar you can't.
The problem is, dyneema/spectra has a melting point of around 150 deg C and kevlar around 600 deg C. Contrary to popular belief flying lines are usually not cut, but melted when they collide. Because kevlar is so rough it generates a lot of heat when rubbed over another line, and with the 150 vs. 600 deg. melting point you can guess the spectra/dyneema flyer bites the dust.
So, there is a silent understanding now to use dyneema/spectra lines: if you collide in mid air you just walk towards each other and there's no harm done, you can either untangle the lines in flight or agree to land the kites without damaging the lines.
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Woden - Flying with Kevlar lines on a busy flying field is like walking down a busy sidewalk swinging a chain over your head - not exactly the way to win friends. <grin>
Art
Gotta fly!
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Hi, Many kite stores remember none to fondly the cuts on people from Kevlar. After being hit and loosing a few earrings due to kite lines, I'm relieved that Kevlar is frowned upon. Who wants to be scarred for life due to kiteline?
BB Penny
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As mentioned by others, Kevlar has two properties that cause problems: high melting point and roughness. Contrast that with Spectra's lower melting point and slickness.
If you get hit by Spectra, you'll probably get burned as it slides over your skin; if you get hit by Kevlar you'll probably get cut (sawed, actually).
Since Kevlar is rougher than Spectra, you can't wrap it as many times - which can be a severe drawback in teams.
Because Kevlar has a higher melting point (higher than pretty much any other flying line), and because it is rougher, Kevlar usually "wins" if it crosses other lines. So unless everyone is flying Kevlar, you don't want to mix them. (The Wildwood Louie, Louie megafly once segregated Kevlar and Spectra in fields.)
And because of its roughness, Kevlar has a higher aero drag than equivalent sized Spectra.
++hobbitt ----------
Mike Carroll
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back in the day we all used kevlar, but that was pre spectra.
kevlar is tough stuff thats for sure, but spectra is slipprier. also kevlar had to (well thats what we thought) be waxed from time to time and that was a pain.
sombody correct me here, isnt spectra more resistant to uv light, and water/mold?
kevlar will slice through spectra like its not even there.
heck it will cut down a big single liner using thick dacron without much trouble also. (uh...i think it will that is)
'till next time, Rich
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And because of its roughness, Kevlar has a higher aero drag than equivalent sized Spectra.
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Hoi
I bet that's just the other way round: smooth surfaces usually have more drag than (slightly) rough ones...
Zenith Tuning
Hi folks,
I got hold of one of the last remaining HQ Zenith's which were being sold off in UK by the Highwaymen. Only just got round to flying it recently and was puzzled by the leading edge tension / trick line arrangement.
For those who aren't familiar with the kite, the tensioning of the leading edge is not by the traditional rubber band or bungee cord. Instead a sheathed non-elastic cord runs from the dacron leading edge over the nock and connects to the trick line.
I thought at first this was some kind of strange dynamic system where the leading edge tension is related to the trick line tension. Maybe I'm misled?
The main problem is how to set this up. I can set the tension in the leading edge to be slack, this leaves the leading edge quite straight and the leech line reasonably taut. Kite seems to fly and trick okay.
I also tried tensioning the leading edge a lot more. This bowed the leading edges considerably, the trailing edge went slack (I didn't adjust the leech line to compensate, left it on 'factory' setting.). Flying wise this turned the zenith into a non-pancaking, non-flic-flac-ing, non-540-ing beast. Anyone know which change of aspect causes that?
A phone call to the Highwaymen revealed that the leading edge is supposed to be set real tight..with lots of curvature. Dick Turpin couldn't remember precisely how it should be set up but was sure of that fact. He had been shown by Mr 'Whatever'.
So anyone out there know how to set the Zenith up and can explain the observed effects? Can anyone beat Chris Matheson to answering that one? ;-)
Ian
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A Bargain of the highest order once you have fettled it.
The leading edge tension should be taught with the knot on the trick line lodged tight after the wing tip knock. That way the trick line is the right length. When I mailed Chris with MY concerns over the bridling he replied that HQ had sent it out with a very heavy bridle setting and the two adjustable aspects of the dynamic bridle could be adjusted to tune this out.
My settings are around 5cm down from stock and 3cm out! YMMV
Kind of, but the tension in the LE is preset by the knot.
Did I beat you to the draw then Chris? Or, more to the point, am I right?
-- David Greenhough
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Indeed the last Zenith' in the UK went out atr a bargain price. It seems hard to find a Matheson/HQ kite left in the shops. Just in time for the new season and the new Matheson kites ;O)
I wish I could take credit for it. I was told how to do it over the phone by Peter Werber. He and other manufacturers have used it for a number of years now and I think it first came from the US comp' scene.
Don't know if anyone can put a name to the first person to use it?
This sounds about right. The loop of line goes over the nock. It then goes round the loop under the leading edge and gets pulled tight over the nock. This then leaves the trick line attached to the kite in the right place.
Think I'm just a tad outside the 3cm, but again. Anywhere between 3 and 5cm on each one will do the job.
And the trick line should be just tight enough to not be slack. If this pulls the tips in any more than they are when tentioned by the leading edge, you'll have problems with getting the kite to flatten out again.
Thanks David you covered that well and of course quickly ;O)
Sorry you had a problem with your kite Ian, hope it's all sorted with David's help.
If you have any more questions, please drop me a line anytime.
Mr Whatever ;O)
Chris.
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Many thanks to all for the rapid answers. I've re-worked the kite along the guidelines given. However a few observations:
1. I orientated the nocks so that the slot was parallel with the trick line.
2. The tensioning cord was detached from the trick line, looped around the nock and then through the tape in the leading edge. The free end was then pulled along the OUTSIDE edge of the leading edge and brought inwards over the nock slot. I therefore had the stop knot on the inside edge of the nock. (Hope that makes sense!)
This leaves the free end in the line of the trick line when it is fitted.
3. Tensioning the cord is a real b*tch of a job. For some reason it seemed far easier with the kite assembled. I also used a spare ferrule as a pull bar on the free end of the tension cord to allow me to get a good grip.
If anyone can think of easier ways, please shout out. I'd love to know before I have to set up the cord on a cold winter's day!
4. I had to lengthen the trick line. I found that in its as supplied length it was pulling the leading edges in a bit. That was an easy job as the loops at the ends are quite long and can easily be shortened.
So now all I have to sort out is the bridle settings. Presently still at factory settings. I've measured the upper leading edge knot to the prussik knot to be 37 cm and the centre t-piece to prussik knot (for pigtail) to be 61.5 cm. These are the factory settings, the ink marks still visible. You guys seem to reckon that these need to be changed to around 40-42 cm and 64.5 to 66.5 cm?
I'm gonna find out what the kites like now that the leading edge / trick line is sorted. After giving it a good spanking, I might change over to those revised bridle settings. It does need to be spanked harder than a midi, eh Chris?
Cheers
Ian
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Hi Ian.
That sounds right to me.
Yep.
It's all down to the technique used. I find that if I work more on pushing the rod into the leading edge pocket, it seems easier. Though a lot of people use something to give them leverage with this style of tentioning.
The leading edge needs to be really tight. If you measure between the top of the leading edge and the bottom of the leading edge in a straight line. The distance is shorter than the length of the spar. This makes it very hard for the spar to deflect inwards when under pressure. This makes the leading edge almost feel like a it has wrapped spars in it.
This has happened on a couple of the HQ Zeniths. That's the difference between a crafted kite and one made in a factory sadly. Little mistakes don't get picked up. Though you'd have paid a lot more for a crafted one. It's a time thang in the end.
This sounds good. It's down to how easy you want it to throw out and how much forwards drive you want. I'm sure if you play in that ball park, you'll find something you like.
It does like to be spanked. Though once you get to know it, you'll find it likes a gentle touch as well ;O)
Wim's thing about taking the trick line off is a good idea too. The only problem is. I like to make bridles quite long and so they tend to get stuck on the spine. This doesn't happen so much as you get used to flying with out a trick line, but if you can't wait. There is a fix done by Sam Eaton called 'The Smile'. ^^^^^^^^^ It's real easy to fit one. You just need a length of 1mm carbon rod, two cross spreader vinals just like the ones holding the standoffs to the bottom cross spreaders and three 1mm end caps.
Measure the same distance from the T to the bottom of the spine out on both of the bottom cross spreaders. Place you vinals here. Push the 1mm carbon through the bottom of the spine, under the velcro. There is a nock there, so it should house itself in that. Put an end cap on one end and place it in one of the vinals. Now bend the carbon round till you make a smile coming up to the other cross spreader. Make the smile even and cut to length. Now cut one of the closed ends off the end caps and then cut the end cap in half. Slip one piece either side of the nock on the spine. This will stop the smile moving when they are stuck in place. Put the other end cap on the end of the rod, stick it in the vinal and away you go.
The smile deflects the bridle line from the spine wonderfully and doesn't seem to mess the kite up in any way. This seems to give you the best of both worlds. You get the extra tricks that not having a trick line opens up and the smile keeps you from the walk of shame.
Sorry you had a problem with your kite. Hope it's all sorted now. Thanks for all the advice guys.
Whatever,
Chris.
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I had the exact same problem with my Zenith when I bought it. The problem is not the tension on the leading edge but the length of the trickline. If the trickline is to short, it'll pull the wingtips inwards, giving the kite other characteristics. This is definately not what you want, so I suggest you tension the leading edges pretty tight and make the trickline a little longer. If you look along the leading edge, the wingtip should be in the same plane as the plane formed by the bottom X-spreader connector, the nose and the bottom of the stand-off.
Even better, fly the kite without the trickline, you can do a lot more tricks with it.
Hope this helps,
Wim
Set Up
This may sound kind of stupid, but I had a huge problem when I tried to set up my kite today. I put my kite together (with a bit of difficulty do to the wind), and I put the kite on its back, nose facing upwind (away from me when my back is to the wind). I attached the lines and started walking backwards letting the line play out. The kite lifted of the ground and started moving around. then it crashed so I continued to let out the line, and suddenly the kite tried to take of again, this time the line sliced my finger right open. the kite crashed and luckily it crumpled (it is a jam session so the Velcro came undone). I untangled the lines, packed up, and went home, deciding it was a sign from GOD to do my work. How do I prevent this in the future? I gave the lines slack so it the nose would not lift up when playing out the lines. Any other suggestions??
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It takes a bit of working out if you haven't seen it or been told, doesn't it ;-)
The normal way involves a stake. Dog stake's are often used, but anything will do, a largish screwdriver or something that is already at the ground and handy. I used a pair of scissors once which worked Ok. The proceedure is: Put stake in ground. Loop wriststraps/handles/whatever you hold on to over stake. Walk downwind letting out your lines (i.e. backwards with the wind in your face). Use a figure eight winder to prevent twisting. Set up kite at the end of lines. Lay kite on back with the nose pointing downwind. Attach lines to kite and push it out so the lines have a little tension. Enough so that the kite doesn't move, not enough to pull out the stake. The nose will probably be a little off the ground, but should not be high enough that there is a lot of wind force on the kite and definitely not high enough for the kite to take off. Walk back to handles, remove them from the stake and take off.
The alternative method is to set up the kite, dump a couple of handfuls of sand onto the kite near the trailing edge then let out the lines. As you pull up the kite to take off the sand falls off. Only really works at the beach though.
Hope this helps. Richard.
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When you get used to it you will have no problems using the method you described as long as you keep some tension on the lines to keep the kite from falling flat and the wind getting under it.
Alternatively, let out a little line, lay the kite on its back and then roll it over on its nose, now the kite is on the ground belly down and nose into the wind with the lines coming out the back and over the top of the kite. The kite will not launch by accident as it is belly down, unreal your lines and then pull both of them evenly and carefuly, this will flip the kite back over into a normal launch position.
Did any of that make sense ?
Patrick
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I find that dead launching the kite in those conditions is easiest and really the only time you'd want to dead launch anyway (in high wind, that is) assuming your kite is capable. You can take all the time in the world and the kite isn't going anywhere, and the dead launch won't damage the kite in such high wind.
It took me a while and several lower spreaders to learn NOT to bother trying to dead launch in low wind. Not worth it for the 10 second walk.
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Richard describes the way that just about everyone (including me) uses to launch their kites in wind. You may have seen flyers carrying brightly colored golf balls. These are fancy kite stakes - easy to make yourself. There is one thing that bothers me with kite stakes though. I guess I first heard it from Andrew Beattie a few years ago. He was saying how he hates it when flyers stake their kites out and leave them on the ground creating an obstacle for anyone walking near your flying area. We need to be better ambassadors to the greater unwashed public. When several of us get together there can be up to a dozen or so kites set up at any given time. Staked out, they would create a major hazard - decidedly unfriendly. The sand idea is perfect for the beach. You will also learn how to launch your kite from a variety of positions as you improve. If you are not preparing to *immediately* launch your kite - don't leave it staked.
What do the rest of you guys think?
PCH
Cold Spars
Eeeegh. It's getting pretty cold outside. Reports of 'wet snow' not too far north. So my question: Will crash landing a kite in freezing temperatures cost more than it does in the summer??? Sail-wise? Spar-wise?
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The cold shouldnt really have an adverse effect on your sails but it will (if it gets really cold) on the spars. Having sold numerous kites for use in the Antarctic I can tell you that the guys who fly down there go for soft kites. Not just because they do a lot of snow traction stuff but also because the carbon frames do get brittle in the extreme temperatures they have there.
Gary
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Well expierence tells me that carbon rods get brittle in cold weather so I would not fly or fly very carfully. Ive broken more rods in cold weather flying than all summer. The fabric is more forgiving as is more flexable.
Allen
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The connectors can get brittle, too, especially the harder plastic ones.
Steve
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Some have responded here that frames become more brittle in cold temperatures, and while that makes intuitive sense to me, I seem to recall a number of threads here in the past that suggested that carbon rods are actually _stronger_ when the temperature drops. I don't know enough about the strength of materials to confirm or dispute this, but I do remember that some people "in the know" have made this claim.
What I recall most is that people seemed to agree that vinyl or rubber fittings (ie. LE connectors, spar grabbers, etc.) will become more brittle in cold weather.
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I am talking from experience here and a bit of technical stuff I have heard from a chemist friend and it seems that yes, the carbon will get stronger as it gets colder - to a point. Beyond that point ie extreme cold, it becomes brittle. Certainly the connectors are a problem too.
Gary
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I didn't have any problems with spars flying in -25-30c last year -- connectors become a lot less stretchy so it's harder to get the kites together and apart, and ice on the ground is _evil_ on the fabric, but the spars seemed fine.
See http://www.10-again.com/winter.htm for more information on this.
-- dan
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Hi Dan,
I guess it is going to depend on the particular materials too. I mean, does carbon in an epoxy matrix "go off" at a higher or lower temperature than in a vinylester matrix? Is a "baked" finish like a wrapped spar different to a pultruded one for this purpose? I dont know the answers to that. I suppose I am lucky that I dont personally suffer from this stuf....never gets down to zero where I live! *grin*
Gary
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Difficult to tell without doing research; the URL below has quotes from someone claiming to have seen charts showing epoxies not failing as low as -150f or so, which is probably colder than anyone's likely to find in person.
> http://www.10-again.com/winter.htm
All I can say from my experience is that I'm the weak link in the system, not the kites; when it's too cold for me to be able to practically assemble kites, the kites themselves are still showing no fragility problems. (by the time gloves are thick enough to save my fingers, I've lost too much dexterity to be able to get anywhere).
There's some good points about things like the aluminium-wrapped-in-carbon rods failing because of different coefficients of expansion, though.
Other interesting things to be aware of are that the ground's probably harder, so crashes are more of a problem than usual; also, colder people = slower reactions = more crashes.. And, as mentioned before, if you have nasty thaw/freeze cycles, the thin crust of ice that forms on top of snow will chew up fabric/lines much more rapidly than you might expect.
-- dan
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This is one of Simo Salannes favourite subjects...he who specialises in flying at -50 degrees for some strange reason, must be a Finnish thing.
You can find him at Simo.Salanne@csc.fi
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actually, I enjoy flying in cold weather better - call me weird - the air is denser, in this part of the us, the winds are usually smoother, you can dress for the temp. and not have the temp. decide just how much you will roast. I like it. do seem to break more parts as it gets closer to 0 F. Last year at kites on ice, I only broke a nock, but it wasn't that cold. Last summer I kept breaking parts on my ul tricktail with my fingers trying to get the damned thing taken down ;-) the other thing is that snow can be alot more forgiving during uncontrolled landing recovery, where in summer, a weed and snag your wing tip and make for a bad day. Do wish that I had a more extensive assortment of connectors and bits during summer or winter, always stock up on rods, cut your own on the field and fly away - no big deal anymore - I just got used to breaking stuff, tired of ending my day early, so built up a stash of parts.
Just me.
Mikey luvs ya!
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Hi folks.
After flying kites since 1995 in winter I can tell you that cold does not change anything except for vinyl joints that may shrink a bit and make assembly or dismantling more difficult. The new modern fittings (often made of a rubberish (good English ???, not sure, he he) plastic are less prone to this kind of trouble.
Ask all the folks that were at Kites On Ice in Madison last year (OK the temperature was a very mild 35 to 40 degrees F) or any folks who fly in winter here in Quebec in temperature as low as -25 degrees C (-13 degrees F).
No problemo. We fly, we have fun and the kites does not seem to bother at all
wind or no wind, fly for fun
Jean (Johnny) Lemire
Kite Lights
The days are starting to get really short up where I live. Anybody ever used Ultra-lites? Do they really make a kite visible enough for trick flying after dark? Does the weight (2.5 oz) interfere with performance? Has anyone tried other brands that worked well?
Any and all suggestions welcome!
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Tell me to shut up if I'm wrong but could you not just use some kind of glow in the dark paint or tape on the leading edges, I would have thought it would hold it's 'charge' for about 5 mins before having to land it and give it some torch.
Hope it helps
Chris
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try your local fishing tackle shop they should sell float tips which you break , shake and you can tape them to your kite. i think they're called night lights
tight lines big BEAcH little sea
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Cindy - IMHO the 'Fly by night lights' listed in the Into the wind catalog for $45 are a better value than the 'Ultralites' (sorry Mike) (10 LED's for 45 vs. 3 LED's for 30) - I have both, but the set I have I bought used and it has almost twice as many lites - No idea where it came from originally.(Yes - 5 or more red LED's on each leading edge are plenty bright enough for 'tricking')
Art Gotta fly!
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They dont light up the kite so much as ouline the shape of the kite. You can see whats happening and the weight doesnt seem to effect too much if you balance it out well. Of course a UL wont be as UL with the lights on it.
Allen
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Hi folks.
I have seen Ultra-lites at Wildwood last May on Captain Eddy's Flying Circus kites and they were visible from quite a distance. The bulbs seems much brighter than leds and are probably less heavy than a number of leds. Plus they illuminate the sail (a light colored sail may help a bit). I would go for these on an UL kite or for both (Ultra-lites and leds) on a regular kite in heavier wind. But since the winds are nearly always very light at night here in Montreal I would probably end up with the Ultra-lites.
I have tried the chemical sticks and they are not bright enough unless you fly in absolute darkness. Plus the cost adds up quite fast. I know they can be freezed and reused a few times but I think it is more convenient to use a battery powered system if you intend to fly often at night with lights on your kite.
Just ideas.
Wind or no wind, fly for fun
Jean (Johnny) Lemire
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Do you know anyone who has the most rudimentary electrical knowledge?
I saw a price of $45 for 10 LEDS. Radio shack would sell you those 10 LEDS for a couple of bucks. Basically, solder them with some really light wire, add a battery, and off you go.
Being LEDS they need to be the right way around, and a simple calc has to be done for a given dry cell voltage, so you may need some resistance to control the volts across each LED. But it is very basic, takes a few minutes (about as long as mounting the ready made set, probably) and will save a heap of money.
Radio Shack's catalogue may even have a data section describing how to wire LEDS to a cell.
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About a month ago, someone posted a thing about home made LED sets for kites.
There was a website with instructions and parts list. Just about everything you would need to make your own set.
) These light sets looked extremely easy and inexpensive to make ( even for a technopeasant like me ! ) ). Unfortunately, I never copied the URL or the plans, so I can't offer any more help on this subject ( .( But I'll bet someone out there has it bookmarked.)Sky Good, Ground Bad! KS
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http://members.tripo...atoco/dave.html I use these all the time
heres another type http://www.geocities...luci/lights.htm
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There has been a lot of talk of LED's.
Most LED's aren't bright enough to illuminate a sail and typically more are used to outline the kite.
Ultra-lites don't use LED's. ISTR it says something about them in the advert but certainly the set I have uses filament bulbs, the very bright pea bulbs used in mini mag-lites. These are bright enough to illuminate the sail. 3 are used one on each spreader and they do a fair job of lighting the sail (use a light coloured kite).
As far as trick flying goes you might manage to shake the battery pack off with a good flic-flac but the bulbs would stay on OK. A minor problem with tricks is that sometimes the lights flicker if the batteries get shook around in their holder. The weight isn't really a problem, I fastened the battery pack just above the T which is where most kites have their CoG.
Other comments, Your batteries 'lose output' quicker if it's cold but do recover when theyre warm. Trick flying in the dark is disorientating. Spectators think you're barking mad :-)
-- Ian Newham
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Or go to a hobby shop and pick up a set of "car lights". These are leds meant to be place in models. They usually have a batter holder, a small circuit board which often offers things such as blinking tailights, and a couple of leds.
At the most two will do fine (you can do away with one battery holder) and in some cases only one will be needed, all depends on just how many leds you need for a kite.
However may well not be as bright as you would want.
One item that Radio Shack sold and I think still does is a super led. It is about the size of a nickle and contains about 6 all in one single unit, very bright.
At the expense of just a littl more weight and your kite can really be seen.
Also just recently out is a new, much brighter led, you will see these used in the newer solar accent lights for decks and so on. I suspect you can purchase these as well.
A good days charge using a cell about 1 1/12 inch square charging a single aa battery in the unit gives you 10 hours of run time. These are very bright outside of the light unit.
Perry
Flexifoils
Hi there,
I asked questions about Flexifoils back in May of this year and received tremendous response and support from some of you guys. I took your advice and purchased a Super 10 and have been hokked ever since.
I'm so hooked on it that I recently purchased a 8 footer to stack up under the 10er. Unfortunately, there's no wind at the moment in my part of the world, so I'm taking the time to gather a few tips regarding stacking Flexifoils.
Can anybody provide me with a few general tips on how I should launch a 10er and 8er stacked together ? Do I need plenty of wind to get them both up ? Can I easily stack a 6er to the 10er and 8er without losing performance ? What's the best way of linking them together ?
thanks in advance,
Mark
P.S Are there any Kiters in this Newsgroup from Toronto ??
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Hi: See post with subject: << Flexifoil two 6s vs one 10 >> from Oct. 11. There are 2 responses you may find helpful.
--Mike
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Hi Mark
The most helpful thing for solo launching Flexifoils (stacked or not ) is a flat surface and a bit of wind and applying a steady pull backwards into the wind. Long grass (more than 3 inches) is a real pain in the butt., drags along uselessly.
Most of all its trial and error with patience.
Regards
David
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when you link kites you always loose a bit of speed, manouvrability and maybe some power. Stacking a 6ft with a 10ft doesn't work very well because your 10ft is stretching out your 6ft when he starts to pull, so you 6ft doesn't have a curve anymore. result : your 6ft isn't pulling. you always have to put your biggest kites the highest in your stack. I have noticed that a flexifoil needs to be "flown in", "stretched". This is something you certainly notice when you trying to stack them. Especially when your flight zone isn't ideal (when is it?) or when you're short of just that little bit a wind. So I would advise : make sure they are "flown in", that makes stacking already a lot easier. The wind speed : I would say as low as possible the first time because it a different way of flying, but still anough. So let's say 2 à 3 beaufort. Better not try with higher wind speeds the first time.
for launching : you simply can't put them on their back and then turn them with one firm pull as with a single one. So build you stack and put it in angle to the wind to launch the go the end of your lines. You simple have to pull the lines equal, get a good grip and they should take off.
Have fun.
PS: watch you lines (I ruined mine today)
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Hi Guys,
thanks a lot for the advice. I managed to get the 10ft and 8ft up today and it was truly amazing. As you stated, the speed is reduced along with the swift control, however the pull is just incredible.
Can I stack up a 6ft at the bottom of the 10 and 8ft ?
Once again thanks for the advice,
Mark
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Sure I often stack my 4, 6, 8, and 10 ft Flexi's
Box Kite
I built a box kite about a year ago and have been flying it from time to time. I presently have it set up with cross braces for a rhomboid configuration, rather than a square box kite.
I am finding it will fly readily, but becomes unstable and crashes for me, in spite of my best efforts at flying. It appears as though the kite gets caught by a change of wind direction and the lifting surfaces on one side of the kite will "stall". I notice in this condition the "stalled" sail surfaces will luff, just like a sail will when it is not trimmed properly... in other words, the luffing surface provides no lifting power for the kite. As a consequence, the kite rolls to that side and comes down. I've experimented with bridle positions and that does seem to change matters.
Is anyone out there building and flying box kites?? I'd be very happy to correspond with anyone with box kite building/flying experience to find a solution to these problems.
Sparky
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Hi Sparky.
Just an observation I have made with a few single liners is that the angle of attack play a role in the stability. To high and the kite floats on the wind and is unstable. To low and the kite pulls more and exhibit some difficulties in taking off and pulls more.
If your kite has a V bridle attached to the front and rear, check that there is a loop attached to the apex of this V. If so, make sure it is attached to the bridle with a sturdy knot like a Prussik knot (otherwise it may slip and change its setting while flying). Then you may modify the kite's angle of attack by sliding this loop up and down along the bridle (just make sure you lock the knot before launching the kite to avoid slippage). Experiment with very small changes at a time (like 6 mm or 1/4 inch). When you find a suitable adjustment, mark it on the bridle with a felt pen or something similar. You may find that fine tuning with even smaller increments may helps (about 3 mm or 1/8 inch) to fine tune the angle of attack.
Also, you will probably find that the adjustments needs to be changed with different wind conditions. This is normal.
By the way, your bridle might be too short. Try lengthening it somewhat. On my 14 feet double delta Conyne, I use a bridle that is about 12 feet long (that means the tow point is about 12 feet away from the kite sail). The kite is about 5 feet tall.
Just ideas.
Wind or no wind, fly for fun
Jean (Johnny) Lemire
Circoflex
hi,
I've made an circoflex but the damned thing wouldn't fly properly. it stays about 10 mtr off the ground and wouldn't go any higher.
i use a nylon cord (is it to heavy).? at what winspeed this kite fly's properly.? does anyone know what i'm doing wrong.?
thanks
Henk Verschoor
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I'm about zero on the subject but I do know someone that has put on workshops and might be of some help.
Check out Gary Engvall's Kite Site:
members.aol.com/gengvall/
Gary is a very helpful when it comes to building kites and he has plans of the circoflex on his page. Maybe you can compare your plans to his and find out more on bridling.
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Hi Henk,
Anthony Thyssen has an excellent site devoted to Circoflexi:
I know this is kind of a lame question, but I can't seem to find the information anywhere. What's a good knot for connecting stunt kite line to the strap loop? The factory-tied sets always have a larkshead-looking knot, but I don't know how to do a larkshead except for the sort that attaches to a straight pointed item (like the bridle line attachment point). How do you get one over a closed loop or buckle-like strap end? (E.g., Prism straps have those triangular hook things at their ends, plastic, I think.)
I need to learn my knots, I know.
Steve
Strap Knot
Three steps:
1. Put the loop in the end of the line through the ring.
2. Now pull the strap through the loop in the end of the line (starting with the non-ring end of the strap).
3. Tighten.
voila!
I'll leave the ascii art to those who are good at that sort of thing..
-- dan
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Hi Cindy.
Its difficult to add to Dan's excellent post but I can add another alternative. It is to add simple pigtails to the ring (triangular or not). That way you get the same way to attach your control line to the kite as well as to the handles.
Here is how to proceed. I know it is quite obvious to seasoned kite flyers but here is how it goes:
1 - Cut a length of about 10 to 12 inches (250 to 300 mm) of dacron line (150 pounds or so);
2 - Fold in two;
3 - Tie an overhand knot to hold the two free ends together, thus forming a loop;
4 - Pass the loop end opposite the knot through the ring (triangle or whatever) that is at your straps ends;
5 - Thread the knotted end through the part of the loop protruding from the ring (triangle, whatever);
6 - Pull tight to secure the attachment;
That's it, you now have a nice pigtail to larkshead your control line loop (handle's end) to.
Of course, repeat for the other line with the exact same measurements.
BTW, for the real maniacs here is a complement.
Tie many knots (three to five, for example) at about 3/8 inch (10 mm) interval on the pigtail's end (1/4 inch or 6 mm if you are real picky). This will allow you to make very fast (if however crude) line length adjustments (use longer pieces of lines to start with since knots eat up line at about 3/4 inch (20 mm) per knot. I use such a setup on my Rev. handle for quick change in the kite setting. I have five knots on each pigtails, thus giving me 10 possible adjustments. Its too much, I confess, since I use two or three at must. Still its fun to have these and they look hi-tech with fancy colored lines
))Wind or no wind, fly for fun
Jean (Johnny) Lemire
Fighters
At my 10 year old son's request, I just ordered a few Indian fighter kites from Gone With the Wind. (I noticed in the recent issue of Kiting that they no longer refer to them as "fighter" kites). I also got a roll of line and 2 spools so that we can have our own little battles in the sky.
What do I need to know about these things? Should we go for destruction of each other's kites? Or should we go for simple line touching as the AKA now suggests?
Your ideas and hints would be very welcome!
Ed Selby
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Hi Ed!
First, I'd learn to control them. We have some basic instructions on our site in the "How to Fly" section.
The trouble with the kind of flying that you call "destruction of each other's kites" is that you -- well -- destroy each other's kites. And even when you can retreive and reuse them, you still spend a lot of time chasing sails and fixing line. That's why AKA uses the touching contest instead. More time flying; less time on the ground. Besides, that cutting line can be nasty stuff.
Hope that helps a bit!
BTW - what do other folks think about this suggestion of dropping the name "fighter" and calling them "single line sport kites"?? I'm not for it. For 2000 years, they've been fighters. Why try to change things now?? Besides, it just confuses people with those other "sport" kites....
dg
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Just a name clarification....at the recent AKA Convention, Fighters were refered as "Single Line Sport-Fighter Kites", the word Fighter was still retained.
Now, to answer David's query, Johnny's preference is that they are "Fighters". He's heavily influenced by the fact that he grew up in Pakistan (which was at one time part of India) and that's what they are known as...and that's how they are flown, as Fighters. They don't destroy each others kites, they use Manjha to "cut" the line, and Manjha can be nasty stuff when not used properly. He learned to fight the "Line touch" way here in the US.
Just our five cents. Gina
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You certainly may go the demo derby route if you chose, though that tends to bring your fun to an abrupt halt once you've broken them all.
In the areas of the world where fighting kites is an honored pasttime, the object is to cut the opponents string rather than damaging the kite. The kite drifts off and may be reflown by the happy kid who manages to catch it.
The reason we don't generally fly with cutting line in the states is that other kiteflyers at festivals get peeved when some cutting line falls across their spectra or dacron
Away from other kiters it's perfectly fine to do some line cutting once in a while (as long as you don't leave it laying about when you go) and the participants have all agreed that that's what they want to do.
The line touching form requires just as much timing and finesse as cutting and you get to keep your kite after the match.
Peruse the web site below for ideas and check the links to other fighter information sites.
-- Brian Johnsen
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What is Manjha? If you play by touching lines how do you know who wins?
WODEN
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Manja is a glass coated line, it cuts anything it touches with tension, including people. Which is why flying with it can make you unpopular here in the States (just ask the Pakistaniis at the Mall in D.C.).
To play by touch, both flyers have to be aware of their own line, and be good sports. Basicly you just watch the lines to see if they touch. Look for clues like a high point in a draping line, or a sharp change in direction. Sometimes you can even feel it, but most of the time it will be difficult, especially with thin line. Keep line lengths short, <300'. On the East Coast of USA, many a contest has been decided on less than 25' of line in low wind. If you are touched, admit it. You'll get 'em next time.
I once read an article that the Japanese fight for honor, not prizes. Sort of a fight hard, talk smack, everyone claim victory, and go home friends philosophy. I really like that. That sort of spirit was missing at the Sunfest Rokkaku battle this year.
Oversteer
I just bought one of those cheapie kites (just for fun) and it sucked. It is headed for the 'garage sale'. However, my question: what is oversteer ??
I was doing a ground pass across the wind window and when I pull turned up, the slack side leading edge leaned into the wind. Is this oversteer?? It was the strangest thing I ever saw. It was very windy out (15 - 25 mph) and I was looking down the side of the kite in the middle of the wind window. The kite did straighten out as I steered it up the sky.
Any and all explanations of oversteer or an explanation of what I did above will be appreciated.
Just a note, don't buy a cheap kite. In heavy wind, the kite could barely fly. I could probably fly a brick better than these cheap kites.
Thanks
Rahvin.
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Rahvin - I would define 'oversteer' as the tendency of the kite to keep turning a bit after you turn and try to make it go straight. This is a desireable characteristic to some advanced and trick fliers. If you ever get a chance to fly a 'Level 7' You'll realy experience 'oversteer'.
Art
Gotta fly!
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Hi Rahvin, hi folks.
Welcome to this group of crazy but friendly and funny peoples, I name the kite flyers
After reading all the answers to your question I can only add to Arthur Cross with the following.
Over steer is the tendency of a kite to continue a turning motion when the flyer want it to resume straight line flying. On most kites, the bridles setting has a major role to play with this behavior. A heavy or radical setting (tow points adjusted low) increase the over steer. A light or higher setting (tow points adjusted high) decrease the over steer.
As Arthur mentioned it, a very radical kite such as the Stranger Level 7 is made to perform tricks and will exhibit a lot of over steer. On the other end, a Tandem Ultra Light (the kite I like the most for precision) will do perfect square turns and will resume straight lines without any over steer. Of course, this kite cannot performs the hot tricks that the Stranger Level 7 will do. Its a question of determining your needs and choosing the best kite to satisfy them. Some models offer very good compromise. Some will offer good precision with some tricks capabilities like the Matrix. Some will give good tricks capabilities with some precision capabilities like the Jam session or the Espresso. And again, with all these kites you can adjust the turning characteristics to some extend with an adjustment of the angle of attack.
To conclude, with kites that exhibit to much over steer, refrain from using too much push turns. Theses kites becomes very unstable if the tension in the lines is lowered too much. Always keep their control lines under tension and just play with difference in tension between the two lines to start and end turns. You shall get better precision and less over steer. Then, as you get more proficient, you can begin to appreciate a good slacking of the line mixed with proper timing to obtain just the effect you want and pull up a nice trick like a spin axel for example.
Wind or no wind, fly for fun
Jean (Johnny) Lemire
TIM
Hello all!
At the suggestion of a few fellow TIM kite builders, I have thrown together a quick and dirty site (not pretty, but has good info) illustrating the methods I used in constructing my three TIM trick kites. There are photos (all thumbnailed) and dimensions for an Andy Wardley Dihedral Active Bridle, which I used on my latest TIM. If anyone feels that something has been left out, let me know. Also, anyone who has a photo of their finished TIM that they'd like to have put on the site, let me know.
The address is : http://www.relia.net...y/TIM/index.htm
Drop me a note if you've got comments.
-Kent : Utah Kite Nerd
Sticky Spars
Howdy, all...
Am currently in the middle of taking-down all my kites and *trying* to clean them up... after some *twit* told me to use petroleum jelly to make the spars easier to get in/out of the plastic tubing.
Anyone have any suggestions on what I could/should *really* use to make the spars easier to insert/remove? Talc? Graphite? Brute force? I have one of those little gadgets that slide along the spar and inside the tubing but that only partially works.
I'd really appreciate any thoughts..
Thanks.
John
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Hi John, Mostly I would recommend the "brute force" method as lubing the spars will probably make them slip out in flight or during an unplanned landing and then they could damage your sail. A very small amount of "wurth" silicon spray can be used on the really tuff ones. If the leading edge connector hoses are too long you could try cutting 1cm or so off them, another trick is to place the leading edge hose and spar in very hot water and insert spar and allow to cool, this will give the hose a new "memory" on some plastics. Hope this helps and Goodwinds Steve McCormack
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I was just on the cover of the local press in full color! - bad shot though they got me lubricating my spreader... check it out to see what I use. www.houseofphotography.com/kramer/kites.htm
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For removing spars, I recommend a Kitemate or Kiteclaw. They are cheap little plastic gadgets. I have and use both. On my old Badboy there are some wicked soft rubber connectors. you *can not* get them off with your fingers. There is no edge to push. They taper down to nothing and just can't be pushed off. The Kitemate works perfectly on them. The Kiteclaw works better where there is a bit of an edge to push against. You could also replace them with some APA conectors. Some of my british friends rave about the Tradewinds connectors as well. Both of these connectors are designed to be pushed off easily with your thumbs.
PCH
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John - A few of my kites are really hard to get apart so I use the old fisherman's trick when assembling them - rotate the spar end against the side of your nose before inserting it into the fitting. This helps to insert and remove it without sacrificing the good fit necessary to keep it together in crashes. A lady I fly with saw me do this and thought I was sticking it UP my nose. I had a hard time convincing her I wasn't.<G>
Art
Gotta fly!
- Craig Rodgerson
-
This promises to be the biggest BORK issue ever. You guys keep contributing such useful material. These past two months have seen a noticeable decline in flammable postings. This month we are also including some material from the KiteBuggy email list. We have a tremendous resource here and now you can search through all of the issues together. Keep up the good work!
The multiple issue keyword search can be found here - Search all issues
Once again I'm indebted to the faithful BORK staff:
- Craig Rodgerson
- Peter C. Hugger Editor
This page is a summary of postings on the rec.kites Usenet news group that our editors believe to be interesting and useful. Opinions expressed in these postings are not those of KiteLife Magazine or its staff.
Tricks Content:
- Utopia
- Snap Stall
- No Wind
- Fade
Utopia
I was wondering if anyone has had any luck in recovering from a back flip with the Utopia? I've tried just about every thing I can but the kite will not flip back over. I'm not sure if I have to do a special move or just setup the kite differently? .......... Tim
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Hi there,
i`ve had Utopia for a while now, and it is relatively simple... (sorry...)
when it`s backflipped, pull your arms behind your body, swing all the way forward, and very soon after that, pull. That`s about it. Small movement just don`t work, it`s gotta be 1 big movement. When the nose is falling down, then it`s the moment to pull...
Good luck!
bye,
Okke.
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Same here. The move works. The Tope does a lot of the tricks with a different touch than most other kites, but it's well worth figuring out.
-- Scott Davis
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Hello,
I have just spent two hours with my new Utopia. I like its precision and the way it "floats" in the air. I had some trouble performing and Axel. The kite has no inertia and most times it got on its back (turtle). Question : are there any special set up moves for the Axel Question: How to get it out of turtle position. I tried to do the double pull that works for the Tho jam but not for the Utopia Question: Can the Utopia fade, if yes how.
Regards
Gal
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Hi there
i own the Utopia for a couple of month now,
and i think i can answer your questions
1: the setup for the axel is the same, but you have to `guide` the guide through the axel, and NOT pop the line, just a smooth accelerated pull... and when it starts to rotate, keep the tension in the lines, so that you can actually feel the bridle sliding. and well, just a lot of practice
but that is with all the tricks 2: turtles are different from other kites to recover. Pull your hands behind you back, then a large swiniging motion forward, and when the nose is at it`s lowest point, pull. That`s about it. No little pulls, just one BIG movement 3: The utopia can fade, but i also found it difficult to get it into one. If you`re lucky and the ground you`r flying on is not too rough, you can lay the kite nose towards you, belly up, and just walk backwards slowly. Keeping in check that the nose remains up, the kite will rise. It is a very delicate movement however, that requirs a lot of feeling for the kite, knowing what it`s gonna do. And a steady wind also helps alot... When you want a fade from in flight, get the kite to the top, fly down, push your hands forward (Utopia doesn`t need alot of this input to do this), and when it just starts to pancake, pull again for the fade. It takes some time to figure out the right timing. But you will get there...Good luck!
Okke Duursma
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Hi Gal,
Brian Todd has written an excellent manual for the Utopia:
http://www.gwtw-kite...1UtopiaFlt.html
Steve
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Hi,
I've been unable to axle my 'tana (old type - not 2000 or whatever). Having just read the thread on Utopia tricks, I guess it needs the same kind of 'guiding' through the axle rather than a quick pop as is needed on my Gemini and Erazor. Can anyone confirm this or give advice?
Ta Andy
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Sounds right to me. I did the work on the Tram' 2000 and one of the things I changed was the way it did things like Axels and 540's. It really felt like a large kite when it was going round and I too found that I needed to really be on the case with the hand movements.
It's not the same with the 2000. Feels a lot smaller when going round and will deal with just a flick for imput more so.
I did manage to get the old Tram' to do all the trick quite easy though, it's not like it won't do them.
Whatever,
Chris.
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Hi Tim and fellow Utopia pilots,
Utopia is a *very* different flying experience and takes time and experimentation to learn to appreciate.
Since I get a lot of e-mail inquiries regarding TrickTail/Utopia flight and tricks, I have put together an on line flight manual - guide to flying Utopia style. It has just been published on the Gone With The Wind Kites web site at:
http://www.gwtw-kite...1UtopiaFlt.html
The page is not finished, may never be. It's a work in progress. Utopia is still teaching me after 8 months ;-) but there is too much information up to hold off publishing a link any longer.
Have a look and send me your feedback for future improvements and additions.
As an added bonus, included is a new trick that I have discovered with Utopia that I have never seen on any other kite: the "Screw Driver" or barrel roll. This is a (multiple) lateral roll around the spine with the nose towards the pilot and the spine (Aprox.) parallel to the ground. Have a look at the animated .gif for a pilot's eye view.
Hope this page helps pilots to learn this amazing design!
Gotta fly!
Brian Todd
Snap Stall
Hi, I am still trying to get that snap stall down, and I can do it sometimes, but more often then not I have the following problem, when the kite stalls it falls over on its back. I am flying a 98 jam session, my bridle is set to the more advanced settings. and this is what I am doing to stall (maybe this is wrong) 1) fly kite, say left to right across the window 2) pull the left hand (to nose up) 3) immediately push the right hand 4) return to center position
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Hi Woden
Your description of how you snap stall should work. Try to make sure that your hand movements are short and snappy. Steps 2 and 3 on your description shouln't be separate movements. IE, you shouldn't pull the inside hand and then push the outside hand. The two movements should be almost simultaneous. Start pushing your outside hand away from you a split second after you have started moving your left towards you. I've found that I start pushing the outside hand away when the inside hand is still on its way towards me. Both hnds shoud end up back at neutral at the same time. Oh... and walk or even run forwards if the action of simply returning both hands to neutral doesn't work.
>when the kite stalls it falls over on its back I assume you mean that the kite occasionally ends up in a turtle position - on its back with the nose pointing away from you. If so, you're killing the kite rather then stalling it. It effect you're doing the same movements that you would do the put the kite into a regular turtle except that you're staring off with the kite flying horizontally. What you are probably doing is accelerating the kite a bit by pulling both arms towards you and then pushing both arms forwards at almost the same time. Try to be more snappy with the snap stall movements.
There have been a couple of threads about the snap stall here in R.K recently. Do a power search in DejaNews - <http://www.deja.com> - look for the phrase snap stall in the r.k archives. You will find references to the Prism or cocked wrist method. This is just a different way of snap stalling which works better for some people than the way you describe. It's neither better nor worse, it's just different.
>PS what does pop mean? is that a short sharp pull? > Yes. The shorter and sharper - but not neccessarily harder - the better. I think of a "pop" as being a flick of the wrist - a sort of short, sharp whip cracking movement.
Regards & good luck James
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It sounds like you are putting too much movement into the move. I think this is what's putting the kite on its back. The combination move you use to get a snap stall or a sharp right angled turn need to be a lot less in size than just a pull or push turn. The main thing is to make the move quick and sharp, but not to yuse too much movement.
Because you are moving both hands at the same time, two small movements at the same time add up to one long movement with one hand.
Practice doing the same move but sharper and shorter with the hand movements. At first you'll still be knocking it on its back, but with practice you'll get it dialled in. You need to be more aggressive the higher the wind is.
A pop is more of a flick of the wrist. This movement is the same as flicking a towel, but in reverse.
Whatever,
Chris.
No Wind
What's the best strategy to master indoor or low-wind flying? For example, I've kinda mastered the 360 (OK anti clockwise but inconsistent clockwise), what next? Any other tricks or moves almost always end in a crash. Would appreciate suggestions like...
1. First do the 360. 2. Then the Over The Head.... etc.
Watch out for.... (tips).
I have the Dodd Gross 4.1 video that has a section on Indoor and Low Wind Flying but that's kinda really advanced. Any tips from the seasoned kiters would be appreciated.
Victor
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I have a 'learning to indoor fly" page on my site - it's pretty blank right now, but I hope to add to it in the next couple weeks. I learned to fly indoors before flying outdoors, so indoor flying is special to me. I would recommend learning up and overs. And just before nosing in - turning the kite for a landing... then up and over again and again and again. to turn just before the crash I feel it's easier to give slack to one line to turn rather than pull a line to turn as done in wind flying.
Once you get this - combine up and overs with 360's. Dodd's indoor flying video really isn't advanced. Those are indoor flying basics like he says. Once you get comfortable, work in some axels, 540's, take it to the top of the window and tip the kite so it will rotate downward so you can catch it. See video demo on my site as well. www.houseofphotography.com/kramer/kites.htm
will have lots of pics, tips and short video clips of step by step indoor flying... (soon as I can get some time to fly indoors and shoot some of this stuff.) watch for it.
Fade
I'd love to learn to fade, but I cannot seem to do it unless it's an accident. Anyone have a secret way or suggestions to help me out? Not many local fliers here, and if there are, I don't know many of them. Thanks in advance!
-Kent : Utah Kite Nerd
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Kent - You'll probably get a lot more answers but here goes the first: I'm not much of a trick flier but I can usually get some of my kites to fade (not all will) here's how I do it. Fly toward one side of the window at about 50 % sky - stall the kite - pop an axle - when the kite has turned just half way and the nose is pointing away from you, pop the opposite hand from the one you did the axle with and the kite should roll under into a fade. Give plenty of slack. You'll probably have to try many times before it starts happening with any regularity - kinda like learning the axle all over again. Happy popping.
Gotta fly! Art
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Hi Kent
As well as trying Art's method: 1) Stall 2) Axel 'til nose is pointing away 3) Pop non-Axeling hand ...you might find pulling both hands easier. Dunno.
you could try
1) Fly straight downwards 2) Pancake the kite by speeding up kite then pushing both arms quickly away - move / lunge forwards if neccessary. The kite should now be belly down, nose away 3) Pull / pop both arms towards you then immediately give slack. This pulls the nose under the kite leaving it belly up, nose towards with lines coming over the leading edges. Voila - a fade.
This method is in essence the same as the Axel to fade method - you just get the kite in the nose away position in a different way.
Try both methods in light winds so that you can do everything more slowly. Experiment with the amount of slack.
Regards James
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Hello all,
Both methods worked fine for me, now the question is how do I flip it back for normal flight? I was working with a Feather in light winds 2-4 MPH. I was trying to give as much slack as I could, so the nose tips up and pop both hand backward. This would sometimes allow the kite to flip nose down towards the ground and once and awhile I could recover it from there, more often then not it would crash nose first. It may be that the kite dose not want to react as fast as I would like it. I will see if I can try a different kite in faster wind to see what happens.
Any suggestions??
TIA
Bill
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If you can axel - then you can fade - I've taught many people on the beach to do it... I show them a couple times, have them try it, then I say - the 2nd pop was to fast or to late... simply do an axle - then after about 1/3 of a rotation - pop the opposite hand. www.prismkites.com/shockwaves Click on "the fade" for a graphic tutorial - animated demo.
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Great tips already given.
When I first learnt I found that I couldn't hold the Fade. I started crossing my arms undoing the twist, and bringing the lines further down the LE towards the tips. Result more stability.
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Generally pulling one line will flip it and have it fly away (not elegant) the best way is to give it some slack (which raises the nose) a gentle tug followed by more slack... this lets the nose drop by it's own weight- the kite will slowly flip over into a pancake (give slack to allow this) at this point you can pop a 540 flat spin, (or pop pull and release both lines) to flick-flack into an another fade... or just pull one line and rotate the kite 180 degrees.
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Another method I haven't seen mentioned in this thread (yet):
1. Start with the kite driving down towards the ground.
2. Pancake the kite - done by pulling both hands back behind your waist, then throwing them both forward to flare the kite out on its belly (nose away from you).
3. Flick both hands back towards your waist again, pulling the kite's nose down and back pointing out you. The kite is now belly-up, nose towards you, ie. a fade.
When done in a series, these movements produce a flic-flac, but can be done as described as an alternate way to enter a fade. This is most impressive (albeit dangerous) when done inches above the ground, just as your spectators think the kite is going to noseplant.
- Craig Rodgerson
-
Recently, AKA members received their ballot for AKA Board members. Richard Dermer is not running for another term as President, leaving the job open.
In my opinion, kiting is at a crossroads of sorts. After several years of retrenchment, 1999 saw some positive events happening for the sport. To capitalize on these positives, I believe that it is vitally important for us to choose the best-qualified person for the AKA President job for the year 2000.
By no means am I telling you whom to vote for, but I will tell you my choice, in the grand tradition of political endorsements.
For many years, David Gomberg has been one of the most able ambassadors for our sport. David is familiar with all aspects of our sport, and all of the main players globally. Click Here to see the award that the editorial staff of this 'zine awarded to David and his wife Susan in our "Best Of '98" issue.
To my mind, David has it all. Unflagging enthusiasm for kiting, strong diplomacy skills, and the ability to always look forward. He conceptualized the National Kite Month initiative, sold it to all of the involved players, then shepherded it onwards to great success. I could go on and on about David's suitability for the job, but hopefully I've made my point.
Why isn't David running? He related several reasons to me, all having to do with his deep sense of loyalty and propriety. He is concerned that his commercial kiting interests may be construed as a conflict of interest. He will be finishing his last term as KTAI President just as the term starts for the new AKA President. He has indicated that if elected, he will serve, and we know that he will serve us well.
To me, none of his "issues" disqualify him from being the best man for the job. I feel we need his wisdom, vision, and leadership.
I will be writing in David Gomberg's name on my ballot for AKA President.
Can Less Be More?
After spending the last seven years competing in sportkite tournaments across the USA, I have come to the conclusion that our current sportkite competition format isn't working to our advantage.
No time is left for fun, very little of interest is offered for spectators, and the participants spend the lion's share of their time working in volunteer positions, rather than flying kites.
It is my feeling that now is the time to start discussing the challenges we face, and possible solutions. The status quo is not going to help us grow. Following are ideas which hopefully will provoke discussion, and action.
Slash The Schedule.
The Hypothesis: We simply have too many scheduled competition disciplines. We have turned sportkite events into an expensive nine-headed monster, with too little enjoyment for competitors, spectators, and organizers.
Below are listed some possible solutions.
Eliminate Intermediate Class.
Prior to 1992, US sportkite events featured three classes of competition; Novice, Experienced, and Masters. Intermediate class was added in 1992, based on the thinking that sportkite competitions were about to boom, and we could support the added time and expense of the added class. Well, seven years later, the boom hasn't happened. Participation has actually dropped during that period.
Europe never fell prey to this proliferation of classes. STACK events do not have an Intermediate class.
After looking closely at the performances in Intermediate and Experienced classes over the last several years (as well as the small number of fliers involved), I suggest that it is time to abolish Intermediate class. Present fliers would have the option of moving up or down to the appropriate class based on their skill and experience levels.
Eliminate Precision as a Free-Standing Category.
Scenario: Dad, Mom, and the kids saw a mention of the local kite festival in the newspaper. After church, they stop by the venue, planning on being entertained, and maybe participating in some way. They park, approach the field, and get to watch an individual precision performance. If it is a smaller event, there are very few static kites in the air. Those who are not flying, are probably judging. After twenty minutes or so, they get in the car and leave. No music, no excitement. Music makes people understand the artistic intent.
Why are we flying Precision events? They are boring to spectators, and to many competitors and judges. Figure skating figured that one out long ago.
Virtually all of our precision events are flown "league style". Who can honestly tell me that they can effectively judge a league style event? Jotting down a quickly-grabbed compulsory score makes you miss those "transitions" that count for 20% of the total score.
Do we need to have a precision element in judging who is the best sportkite flier? Absolutely. Does it need to take up half of the event schedule? No way.
Ballet, With a Precision Element.
There are several alternatives here. One is to simply have each competitor, whether individual, pair, or team; dual or quadline; fly a series of three compulsories immediately before their ballet performance. Scoring could be on a 130-point scale (100 potential for ballet, 10 each for compulsories). This would be an extremely easy change to implement. It would also bring pairs and quad fliers the precision element that they have been asking for, without adding four new disciplines. Three compulsories, flown with 10-20 seconds in between, would allow for a better reckoning of precision skills than the present method.
Another idea would be to insert the compulsories within the ballet itself, as suggested by Hans jansen op de Haar in an earlier proposal. While this may be an optimal scheme, I have concerns as to whether our judging and communication skills are sophisticated enough for this approach.
I can foresee one argument against this... "The Europeans will beat us up even worse than they did in Guadaloupe!" My feeling is that these ideas may lead to a greater number of competitors, due to the lower complexity (and hopefully expense) of competing, and time for more fun activities during a tournament weekend. Also, such a format will enable closer judging of compulsory figures, driving skill levels higher. When you know you only have one event to compete in for a weekend, you may train a little harder.
It is no secret that our competitor base is aging, in my view, our number one task should be to retain the fliers we have, and bring in new blood. Many of our old warhorses (myself included!) are not going to be the ones to win world championships. We need youth and vigor in the sport to enable future growth. Age and treachery sure didn't help us in Guadaloupe.
Junior Class.. Get New Fliers.
Open to youngsters, this class would be similar to the present "old style" precision event. I would suggest that this class would have no entry fee, and equipment be provided by event organizers or sponsoring kite company/store. The "Learn To Fly" fields (see below) would provide the majority of entrants. A pre-event class should be held to coach the participants. Finding sponsorship for this category should be a no-brainer, kids and kites are a natural match in the public's eye.
Make It a Show! Make It Spectator Friendly!
At any kite festival, crank up your Applause-O-Meter and see what gets a response from spectators. If you said "Teams", you have what I believe to be the right answer. Run the teams on Saturday and Sunday at 2:00 pm, and publicize the hell out of it. Average the scores to determine a winner. Let the public know that if they show up at 2:00, they will see a show. Obviously, a small festival that is not expecting team participation could use the same approach with pairs, or Masters individual fliers.
One end result of these ideas is that the need for volunteers for judge, field director, and pit boss slots would be greatly reduced. This would free up the participants to staff the "Learn To Fly" fields, putting a sportkite into the hands of spectators. Nothing would help grow our sport faster than getting that big "Kite Grin" on as many newbie's faces as humanly possible. Approach LTF field assignments as seriously as we approach finding "volunteers" to judge!
Sample ScheduleSaturdayLearn-To-Fly Field, All Day. Scheduled staff.High-Energy Demos, as fill-in. No "dead sky" ever.Novice Individual (Two Heats if Necessary)Experienced Individual (Two Heats if Necessary)Noon- Mass AscensionMasters Individual (Two Heats if Necessary)Open Quad2:00 Open Team Competition, Flight OneOpen PairsSundayLearn To Fly Field, all day. Scheduled staff.High-Energy Demos, as fill-in. No "dead sky" ever.Finals of Novice/Experienced/Masters, if necessary.12:30 Mass Ascension1:30 Junior Class2:00 Open Team Competition, Flight TwoRokkaku BattleMega-Team FlyDemos4:00 Awards Presentation
Quote Of The Month
"There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home."
- Ken Olson, president, chairman and founder of Digital Equipment Corp., 1977
Housekeeping
First, a warm welcome goes out to Ron Despojado. Ron is one of the top quad fliers in the USA, and takes over the "4Play" column, starting with this issue. Glad to have you aboard, Ron!
With mixed feelings, we bid farewell to Mike Reagan, author of "Doin' It Indoors". Mike recently got a "dream job" that is taking all of his time and energies. We wish Yikes all the best.
I hope you enjoy this issue, and as always, I welcome your feedback. -
Welcome to our Special Section about sportkite team flying. We have assembled many of the top team fliers to give us all some information about this exciting part of the kiting sport.
The goal of this section is to help provide some information that may help you start a team, whether just for playing in the park, or with the aim of competing.
We hope you enjoy it, and feel free to contact us with any questions or comments.
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Five Questions
We snag some of the top team pilots in the world for the straight scoop.
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Team Basics
Team Guru Ron Reich shows you how to start.
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Team FAQ
Randy Joe answers the some of the most popular questions about teams.
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Team Choreography
Part I of a series.
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Team Skydance
Their World Championship Quest.
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Make It Pay
Make team flying a self-supporting hobby.
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Editing Kite Ballet Music
Do it like the pros.
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Team Up? Go!
Story of their freshman season.
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Let's Stay Together
More tips for starting a team.
Photo courtesy of Randy Joe/Spectra Star Kites
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Five Questions
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KL: Please give us a "flier's bio" about you and your team. Names, when formed, why you started team, when disbanded, competition history (if any), etc.
Randy Joe, Team Tsunami.
Founded in 1991 for fun which led to competition. World Cup Champions 1994 in Le Touquet. Formally disbanded after WC 1995 Australia. Still flying on occasion.
Randy McKiernan: Team Wind Dancer.
Team Members - Randy McKiernan, Judy and Mark Stockslager
Sponsored by Wind Dancer, Unlimited, Inc. (Bill and Marie Storey)
kite flown: Wind Dancer
Christophe: Les Ailes du Desir.
We start flying in 1993, then we were 4 pilots: Olivier (the leader), Frederique, Christophe & Michel Marie. We start team because is more exciting than flying alone . We have flown some competitions: two times 2nd in the French Championship in Master category. 3rd at the Euro Cup at Le Touquet in 1996, 5th at the Challenge in Guadeloupe in 1997. Qualified for Euro Cup in Italy and World Cup at Ocean Shores but it was too expensive for us !!! For the last year we have flown as 6 pilots (Thomas and Fabienne join us) only in demonstrations with 6 North Shore Radicals and we are preparing a new ballet for next year.
Mike Gillard: Captain Eddie's Flying Circus.
Formed in early 1993. Original members were Al Hargus, Vern Balodis, and myself. We have mutated over the years, flying as a 3, 4, 5, and 6 person team. Current lineup is myself, Vern, Al, and Vicki Romanoff. We started with an eye toward competition success, demonstrations, and most of all, FUN. We were 1996 and '97 AKA champions in Precision, and '97 AKC champs in both Precision and Ballet.
Eric Wolff: Chicago Fire.
We formed in '86, with myself, my wife Dorothy, Al Hargus, and Frank Feiseler. Current lineup is me, Dan and Kathy Brinnehl, and Russ Faulk. We have competed continuously since '86, and have appeared in four World Cups. We have 57 1st place finishes to our credit. Why did we start? We couldn't help ourselves! We were at the '86 AKA convention, saw the teams, and that was it. We gotta do that!"
Bruce Kapsten: Air Crackers Kite Team.
Formed in 1997, original team members: Bruce Kapsten, Tim Boyle, Sue Boyle, Jesse Kapsten. Current team members: Bruce, Tim, Sue
Competition History:
1997 Experienced Ballet only.Newport '97 last in EQBAKA Nationals 6th in EQB (or was it 7th?)1998 Eastern League Champions in Exp. Team Precision1998 Eastern League Runners-up in Exp. Team Ballet1998 AKA Nationals 1st in ETP, 2nd in ETB
Chris Moore: Team Wind Wizards.
Current lineup is Chris Moore, Nick Piaceuza, & Brian Guile. We started in 1995, and have flown competitions and demonstrations all over the country. Our sponsors are Wind Wizards kite stores, Shanti Kite Company, & Speed Line.
Jim Barber: Team Visual Impact.
Current members are myself, Dan Villegas, Mary Bos, Reid and Rick Wolcott. Started as team Don't Panic in '94. That year, my wife Monica and I took a two-week vacation. The first week, we did what I wanted - ATV races, and she picked week two's trip. She picked the Washington State Int'l Kite Fest. We arrived, parked, and walked toward the beach. The first thing we saw was team Cyborg. We were stunned! We looked at each other and said, "We've GOTTA do that!". We promptly bought 2 Pro Cheetahs, and looked for a third flier. Mind you, before that trip, we had never even flown a kite!
I have been involved in team flying ever since. We have won numerous events, including a sweep of the team events at last year's AKA Nationals.
Mary Bos: Team Bumperkites.
Myself, and Reid and Rick Wolcott started in late '96. Reid and Rick had been flying pairs, and I loved flying, but was a lousy individual flier. I figured they could make me look good ;-). We were undefeated in Experienced class in '97, and did well in Masters in '98. For '99, we joined with Dan and Jim from Don't Panic to form Visual Impact.
Monica Orso: Team UP-GO!
We formed in fall '98. members are myself, Dave Snope, Art Cross, Paul Gee. We have been competing in all of the events we can this year, and it's gone well. Why was the team started? It was fun fooling around together in the park, the next logical step was a
formal team.
Steve Santos: High Flyers.
We formed in 1988, first competed in 1989. Members were myself, Sue Moscowitz, and Dave Simpson. Besides several Eastern League championships, we were AKA ballet champs in '94. That was our last event. We flew in the '93 World Cup.
KL: How did you start team flying? What was your first team flight like?
Randy Joe: We started flying just for fun after work in Redondo Beach. No expectations. The first flight was the beginning. Everyone had a blast which led naturally to wanting to fly more often and to get better.
Randy McKiernan: Formed: 1999
We had discussed starting a team for a few years. It was clear more teams were needed in the northwest and across the country. We decided it was time, so we started the team. With help from sponsors and input from veteran team flyers and commitment from team members, Team Wind Dancer was formed. We worked through the winter and spring of 1999 laying the groundwork for the team and completing all of the logistical and organizational elements required when forming a team. We were ready to fly in the spring and have been practicing and flying since then.
Christophe: During the time we flew with four fliers, we used our signature styled kites (yellow with black stripes), made for us to fly just how we want. The first time we flew, it was quite hard!
Mike Gillard: It's all Al Hargus' fault! I had just started flying sportkites in '92, Hargus gave me a video of the Chicago Fire and the Flight Squadron, and BAM, I just had to do it. My first team flight was in October '92, it was scary, but a blast. Our first flight as the Circus was great, Vern had all kinds of experience from a previous team, Hawaiian Punch. Ron Reich had coached Vern extensively, which gave us a nice start. We didn't have to reinvent the wheel.
Eric Wolff: We started with 10-ft Flexifoils, just doing a follow and a turn was an accomplishment, with the unique power and speed of those kites. From the beginning, our target was 30% serious, 70% fun, a philosophy we keep to this day. We didn't even think about competing for our first six months together.
Bruce Kapsten: We started team flying because there were so few teams in the Northeast we figured we could attend the AKA's and compete, have fun and learn a lot. The first flight was very tentative. We were combining two pairs (Air Atlantis and Animal Crackers) and 4 flyers with VERY different experience and skill levels. Mostly we laughed a lot.
Chris Moore: Our first team flying was at a Wind Wizards kite demonstration and the wind was blowing at about 25-30 mph and two of the flyers had never flown team before. We just decided to try team flying right then and there. The kite were pulling so hard that we were being pulled across the ground and even pulled off some team kite jumps! We also broke kites and lines. We realized then how much fun team flying was and how expensive it can be!
Jim Barber: We just started, with reckless abandonment. Two weeks before the Long Beach sportkite event in '94, we found our third flier, and put together routines. We were scared to death, crashed and burned, but still had a ball.
Mary Bos: It was total catastrophe! We were flying Comp Edges, which pulled like trucks. We laughed so hard that we talked about naming the team "Giggles and the Geeks", sort of like "Hootie and the Blowfish", but we settled on "Bumperkites".
Monica Orso: The team started flying with the help of Liberty Park flying buddy Dennis Smith. We "goofed around" a lot together in the sky. The first flights had a lot of following, and a lot of straight lines…and yes, crashes and broken sticks were definitely part of the vocabulary!
Steve Santos: Sue and I started flying together from day one. We bought Dynakites and flew them as a pair. Never really flew alone the first few years of sport kite flying. After we saw "Team Top of The Line" in Newport in 1986 and 1987 we decided to add a 3rd person and enter team competition in 1988. We got along well from the beginning and prepared well for our first competition. Experienced Team precision in Wildwood. We won and received our East Coast Champion jackets!! That year we went undefeated until Mike Simmons came along and started to test our metal as our 3+ member team regularly faced well-timed pairs teams. We traded places with Mike's teams until they finally separated pairs from teams.
KL: Describe your most memorable team flight.
Randy Joe: First competition in Berkeley. Winds 25 mph plus.
Our first World Cup 1992 in Odawara. First international competition. World Cup 1993 in Berkely because we crashed and burned.World Cup 1994 in France. 9-Man Team Flying in Santa Monica 1996.
Randy McKiernan: We (Team Wind Dancer) have competed in three events this season, Ocean Shores, Long Beach and Westport, Washington. We have had good success so far this season. We feel our team flying is improving at each event. We are looking forward to further competitions this season with the highlights being Berkeley and then on to AKA Grand Nationals/American Kite Circuit finals at Muncie, Indiana.
Christophe: Our most memorable team flight is when we have made our ballet flight and all the public claps their hand in rythm with the music during all the ballet...that was magic...public said to us that our ballet was very emotional...it was at Istres, a town in South France.
Mike Gillard: Wow, hard to pick just one, so many have been memorable. I guess I would have to say the 1996 AKA Nationals at Santa Monica, we knew we were ready to "break into the big time". We had suffered through a lot of personnel changes before that, but at SM we knew that our lineup was solid, committed, and ready to rumble.
Eric Wolff: Sorry KL, but you're getting two. At the West Coast Championships in 1988, we faced off against Team TOTL, who to that point had *never* been defeated. At the end of the day, they had suffered their first defeat. We received a check for $1,500 for winning, and a 3'x5' replica of the check. I still have that big check! The other flight was the night fly at Verdun in 1998, we were selected to close the show. We were flying as a 5 person team... we launched to familiar music, with our kites floodlit, in the background was the Megabyte with lights inside, and probably 100 other great kites, all with lights. We flew a great ballet, landed on the last beat of the music, and every light in the park went out the second we landed. The 60,000 people lining the field made such a roar that we couldn't hear each other's screams in the dark. It was magic.
Bruce Kapsten: For me our most memorable flight was MASKC in 1998 when we flew Precision in competition for the first time and won. It was really exciting and rewarding to know that we had done something well that we had been very much afraid to try at first.
Jim Barber: We've had a lot of great experiences, but if forced to pick one, it would have to be the team Precision event at the '98 AKA Nationals. We were confident that if we executed the way we knew how to do, the event was ours. We went and did it, and it was ours!
Mary Bos: That would have to be the ballet event at Berkeley '98. It was one of those magical experiences, the wind seemed to increase for our zippy parts, and die off for the stalls. Awesome. We scored 87.95 points, the crowd went nuts, it was one to remember forever.
Monica Orso: Most memorable team flight? The vote for most memorable team flight was a tie. The most emotional one was the first competition in Maryland, where nothing had previously come together for us until we got out there and it all clicked, giving us 1st place in ballet. The other memorable event was the absolute agony of watching our kites fall repeatedly from the zero-wind sky in Boston, then to be caught in a 30 second hurricane...the most bizarre wind experienced to date. It was SO BAD that it crossed over into humor… every flyer that was watching us knew exactly what we were going through, (they had all been there at some time) and they could only laugh at the futility of the situation. When it was all over (and believe me, it went ON and ON for an eternity out there!) we didn't know if they were applauding our effort, or applauding because they didn't have to watch us anymore!
Steve Santos: Wildwood 1991. Our first year in Masters and the teams which started it all were still around in original members. We went into that event with a great new ballet routine but had nothing for precision. Instead we flew our ballet routine without music and scored well below our expectations. Mike Simmons thought we were losing it! That's until he saw the routine flown to music. We placed 3rd in an event with 17 teams, our heroes (Team Top of The Line) were among them. We, and the crowd, couldn't believe our routine. We went from chumps to heroes, being the first east coast team to come out of the ranks and challenge long time greats like "Top of the Line".
KL: Name any influences you and your team have/had. Have you seen any team flying that "knocked you out", or led to you starting a team?
Randy Joe: Phil Bazell (Prevailing Winds) extemely knowledgeable and supportive. Dan Buxton - great for feedback, always gave it to you straight. Ron Reich - organized, disciplined, professional. Team High Performance - great under pressure, aggressive flying style TOL Flight Squadron - toughest team to beat, consistently great
Randy McKiernan: Judy and Mark have been interested in flying on a team since they saw the Top of the Line Team flying to Battle Hymn of the Republic at one of the World Cup Championships.
Randy attributes his interest in team flying to the first years he attended the Washington State International Kite Festival in the early 1990's when there were more teams in kite flying. Team demonstration flying was a large part of the festival at that time. One team that really sparked his interest and got him thinking about maybe trying team flying someday was a local Northwest team "Cyborg". In recent years, two teams from the Northwest, Don't Panic and Bumper Kites carried the banner for team flying
and have been an inspiration to Randy.
Christophe: Not before made our team but some years later we met Skydance in a competition and after talking with us we realized that we have the same opinion about ballet... (we like Skydance's ballet and Skydance was always behind us to see our ballet in flight area...) In our ballet we don't have any calls by the leader...only the music guides the pilot...the flight is in exact rythm with the music.
Mike Gillard: Tsunami was awesome in '93 and '94, but in the last 5 years Airkraft and then Aftershock have just pushed the boundaries way out. My first fave team was the Chicago Fire, we have a great rivalry (and close friendships) with those guys. If they quit competing, so will I, but as long as they are out there....
Eric Wolff: Early on, we were influenced by Top Of The Line, and Spectrum Flight (Lee Sedgwick and Sue Taft). Since then, Aftershock in their World Cup ballets in '97 and '98 put on the two best performances I have ever seen. As far as leading the sport forward though, I think Airkraft opened a lot of eyes to new possibilities.
Bruce Kapsten: Personally, I have really enjoyed watching Capt. Eddie's, Invisible Winds, Air West, Don't Panic, and the Valli Boyz. I think that for me, the original High Flyers and UpRoar, because they were local teams had the most influence on my wanting to fly team. The Robertshaw brothers, Scott Wieder, and Deb Hurd are for me, some of the most amazing individual fliers.
Chris Moore: Unfortunately most of our team hasn't seen team flying except at the last AKA Grand National Convention in Ocean Shores. We have no teams around here and don't even have videos. For me as the captain, I have been most inspired by the original Top of the Line Flight Squadron at the Child at Heart festival in Denver in 1991 all the way to Airkraft and Skydance in Guadeloupe in 1997!
Jim Barber: Team Invisible Wind provided us with invaluable help in the beginning. They motivated and coached us, preventing us from making mistakes that they had made in their early years. They really helped us get up to speed.
Mary Bos: Skydance just knocks us out. They have an incredible style - quick, fast, and intense.
Monica Orso: Teams like Captain Eddies Flying Circus, Chicago Fire and Shanti Air inspired us. Talking with other teams (i.e. picking their collective brains) and going to the team workshop given in Ocean City influenced a lot of the decisions we have made.
Steve Santos: Already mentioned! Team Top of the Line! Ron Reich is great! A great mentor and competitor! Knew every trick in the book and was always prepared well beyond anyone else. What a competitor. They drove us to work, really hard. 20 hours plus per week when we were serious.
KL: Why do you feel that the number of teams (in US, anyway) has fallen off in recent few years? Do you see any solutions to changing this?
Randy Joe: I wish I knew. I've heard different theories, but none of them make any sense. It 's something that should happen naturally, but isn't.
When we started, Top of the Line was always around to inspire improvement. Aftershock is doing the same in Japan. Without a world class team, there's no benchmark. There is so much knowledge that could help new fliers and teams, but not much real interest to learn. A lot of people are under the impression that Team Flying takes a lot of time. The answer is yes and no. In the beginning you need to pay your dues in the air, but after awhile, it's more quality time than quantity.
I've discussed the possibility of doing some Team seminars with various people, but it's not something that I want to push. There doesn't seem to be enough new interest to warrant the time and effort. In Japan, Team Seminars have attracted 80-120 attendees.
Some people view competition as a bad word. As far as Team Flying is concerned, I believe it was and could be the impetus to drive the sport forward. When we first started competing teams were alot closer (on and off the field). There were more events and more teams traveled to events.
Now, teams are fewer and far between and fly more on a regional level. Judging is an area that will always be open to criticism. My beef has always been that degree of difficulty is not rewarded. In the Olympics, ice skaters are judged 50% on artistic and 50% on degree of difficulty. The difference is usually in the latter. If you happen to fall, chances are you won't be the Olympic champion. I don't believe that our sport balances the risk and rewards very well.
Randy McKiernan: Based on our recent efforts to form a team and start flying I can understand why there are fewer teams than in the past. It takes a total commitment to organize a team and then to actually dedicate enough time for practice to work out the technical details of flying together and refining ballet/precision routines. My life has pretty much been my "real job" and then the rest of the time dedicated to the team effort for several months now. If I didn't want to make the commitment then I wouldn't be doing this. I see the end result as worth the effort and the trip along the way a lot of fun and gratification.
Our team members live several hours away from where we practice flying on the Pacific Ocean. It takes investment of time and money just to get flying time together. I understand that it is difficult to make this commitment of time, money and energy no matter where you live. Bottom line is you've got to really want to do this! It appears few flier's are ready to step up to the plate.
I wish I had a solution. I am concerned not only with diminishing team participation but also with diminishing individual participation in sport kite competitions. At a recent event in Washington State this very topic was discussed by flier's and organizers during a pilot's meeting. No real solutions or strategies were conceived. Many good ideas were discussed on how to improve the situation. Most important is that at least we started talking about a problem that has been evident for a few years now. Now that we're talking about the problem hopefully some actions will follow.
Christophe: Our concept flight team doesn't stop at acrobatic kites, the team has some static kites like an edo (yellow and black like our acrobatic kite) and we have one by pilot...or some other kite creation...you can read an article about this in PLANETE CERF VOLANT n°11 page 24.
Mike Gillard: The sheer thrill of teamflying is enough for some of us hardcases, but for others, the payback simply doesn't justify the costs (financial, emotional, time) of going for the top. I would like to see more event organizers use the top teams to draw spectators and sponsors. Organizers, try sending in a 20-second video of a top team to the local TV stations, and tell them that at 2 pm both Saturday and Sunday, their viewers can see this amazing display at the festival! Maybe this would help attract enough additional sponsorship to allow organizers to waive entry fees and provide the team with lodging. A full season costs a top team somewhere in the neighborhood of $6-10,000, any help would be great. We must start thinking outside of the box.. wearing red uniforms, and flying "Coke" kites would be OK if it paid the bills! That being said, as a nationally competing team, we receive some equipment help, otherwise we couldn't handle the circuit. Thanks be to Avia Sport Composites, Level One Kites, and Blue line. We deeply appreciate your support.
Eric Wolff: In the late 80's and early 90's, there was a camaraderie and spirit that was unique. The circuit was new, and all of the fliers were in a common place, pre-kids, but started in professions. We had the time and the resources to travel and compete. The birth, and then maturity of the circuit was a shared experience of the six or eight teams that were there at the peak, probably '91. Team flying was part of our social lives. I feel that Daniel Prentice is the unsung hero of that period, for his vision of creating the circuit, and World Cup.
Also, it seems that the focus of promoters is not on growing the sportkite end of things. Early on, there were a lot of retailers and manufacturers heavily working the sport, promoting events, and teams were the main beneficiaries. There were a lot more ways to receive recognition. American Kite always published on time, and had good event coverage. Stunt Kite Quarterly hyped the teams. Kite Lines published regularly, and had event reports. Even Kiting covered sportkites, a lot more than they do now.
Overall, somehow we need to rekindle interest in sportkiting, interest in teams will follow naturally. Everyone wants recognition for their efforts, and it's not there now.
Bruce Kapsten: I think the reason that the number of US teams has fallen off is that team flying is VERY expensive (as you know). The time commitments, the travel and equipment expenses (if you are unsponsored), the emotional investment, and ultimately, the time you need to spend together seems to lead to conflicts within many teams. In addition, we don't "showcase" our teams the way we could to help them get recognition and support from outside the kiting community.
Chris Moore: It is a commitment of time and money that few can give.
Jim Barber: I wonder if it has something to do with the current predominance of trick kites, and fliers who start out flic-flacking around. In years past, it seems that precise, clean, graceful flying was more important to people, and the best precision fliers put teams together. Hopefully, it will be a pendulum effect... maybe we will start seeing more emphasis on all-around skills... and the grace and precision that it takes to be a good team flier.
Mary Bos: It seems to me that the "bottom end" - new fliers - is weak. Looking at most of the team fliers I know, they started flying team shortly after getting into kiting. I think that if we had a huge novice class this year, we would have a ton of new teams shortly down the road. We should be working harder at attracting new fliers. I think most, if not all of the current teams would love to mentor some newbies... we just need the newbies!
Monica Orso: Perhaps the number of teams in the US has fallen off because flyers are concentrating on individual events and have no time, energy or money left for team. It is also much harder to coordinate the schedules and ideas of several people, especially if they are not living very close to one another. Maybe clubs can encourage team flying more…wouldn't it be great if every club owned a set (a sturdy set!) of kites matched in speed and handling characteristics so that members can get hooked?
Steve Santos: It's very difficult to get several people to stay together for any length of time. Also, there's not much at the end of the rainbow. I think everyone realizes this, including the potential sponsors. Also, there's just so many other options. When we started you flew an individual event or team. Then came along the innovative or freestyle event. Quad wasn't happening. Indoor wasn't there. Pairs, they were teams as well. I don't see any dramatic increase in teams unless other options are removed. It's too easy to form a pair. The chance of staying together is greater with the less number of people. It's tough on any team!
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Or, "Poor Boys With Big Dreams"
A Case Study
In the last few days of 1992, Vern Balodis, Al Hargus and myself formed a sportkite team. In our first meeting, we discussed our goals for the team, and reached a consensus on what we wanted our team to be and do. We determined that we wanted to improve quickly, and become a nationally competitive team in a short order. We also determined that we wanted to show off our sport to as many non-kiters as possible.
That all sounds good, right? Putting pencil to paper, I determined that we would need a budget of about $7,000 to achieve our first year goals! Adding up the costs for equipment, travel, and entry fees made my eyes grow wide. How could we make this work? We all had the fever, but not the wallet.
We approached the dilemna on two fronts. First, what could we do to trim our costs? Several phone calls later we had our first answer. We contacted another team, at the time one of the best teams in the World. They offered to sell us their previous season's competition kites, at a price far below what we anticipated paying for new equipment. Proven and tuned kites! As a further help, they threw in some retired line sets, further reducing our out of pocket expenses. This transaction reduced our budget needs by over $1,000.
We were still faced with the task of figuring out how to come up with the funds that it would take to accomplish our goals. After some brain wracking, I decided to attempt to sell our team to event promoters as an entertainment package. To us at the time, this was uncharted water, but we all decided it was worth a try.
We determined that we needed to come up with a promotional package to present to prospective customers. Concurrently, we worked on a name for our new team. After tossing around many ideas, we settled on "Captain Eddie's Flying Circus"; named for Capt. Eddie Rickenbacker. Captain Eddie was America's first fighter ace, and a national hero in World War I. He also was a native of Columbus, our hometown. This name has proved to be quite useful in selling our team to non-kite event promoters. We combined the name with all red/white/blue equipment, to further the military aviation connection.
Above: Cover of our 16-page publicity package, November '93.
We bombarded the local media with press releases, and invitations to come to our flying field. The efforts paid off with several articles in the newspapers, and coverage on all three localcoverdisp.jpg TV stations.
Right: Front page, above the fold. Columbus Dispatch. It was the day after the Super Bowl, the game was a blowout, so we got the 49'ers space. Media outlets like "kite in the snow" shots.
Over the next month, Al Hargus, our "Minister of Propaganda", worked long and hard on a promotional booklet. By March 1993, it was ready for print. The booklet contained information about modern kiting, sportkite team flying, team bios, and best of all, copies of the news clippings.
The next step was figuring out whom to target for our sales effort. We brainstormed a list of possibilities, and an afternoon at the local library provided the names and addresses.
Our Initial List
At the library, I found the local Chamber of Commerce's listing of local events. The state Tourism Department had a nifty listing of area doings. From the phone book, we added party planning companies, and rental party grounds. All together, there were over 1,000 possibilities, just within our state.
Armed with this list, we targeted 100 likely prospects to receive a mailing. Within two weeks, we had booked two demos, both one-day events paying us a combined total of $1,000. Woo hoo! Off we go!
Reality set in. We had presented ourselves as professional entertainment; people have sent us contracts to pay us for that service, now we have to deliver! More brainstorming followed. After inventorying the skills that we had to offer, we came up with a show format that worked well from the start.
-An opening narrative, about kiting and the team.
-One team member demonstrates precision maneuvers, with narrative, and then flies a ballet.
-Two team members fly a pairs ballet routine.
-Team flies an easy precision routine to some mellow music.
-One team member demonstrates quad ballet.
-Team flies their ballet routine.
We then cobbled together a sound system, utilizing pieces from our home systems and a local surplus store. In yet another brainstorming session, we developed scripts to read between performances.
We staged a "dress rehearsal" at our local field, allowing us to figure out the logistical problems involved with presenting aswine.gif fast-moving, 40 minute show. We were ready to go.
The first shows went well, and got good response from audiences.
Above: You get to see some exotic locales on the pro demo circuit! The sign on front of barn reads "Swine, Open Class". Coshocton, OH County Fair, 1993
Cheap Insurance
The key to us making our team almost totally self-supporting was the idea to try and book ourselves at hot air balloon festivals. We marketed ourselves as "Cheap Insurance", giving alternate entertainment when wind conditions are poor for balloons.
Some important points about Balloon Festivals
· They draw large crowds.
· Concessionaires pay big money to sell food and trinkets.
· Balloons have a very narrow wind range. If they can't launch, the crowd leaves. Concessionaires take a bath, and beat up on the organizer. At the recent "Eyes To The Skies" fest, the balloons launched only once out of six scheduled launches.
· Festival organizers seem to be receptive to other forms of entertainment (kites!). In addition to flying in place of the balloons, the kite shows provide entertainment in the afternoon, before the evening launch.
· Festival organizers have money to spend. Balloon festivals typically have large sponsorship packages in place, and many charge admission.
· There are Balloon fests every weekend, spring through autumn.
· Typically, they have a PA system on site to provide sound.
· There is an online schedule at www.balloonlife.com, complete with contact information for each festival.
Our team appears at several balloon festivals a year. For each of these, we have been contracted for the last five years, and already have contracts for next year. This is great repeat business.
Right: Large balloonfest crowd
For any skeptics out there, following is a letter that we received after one of this year's balloon festivals:
"Dear Mike and Team-Thanks again for your fine showing at the 19th Annual Lisle eyes to the Skies Balloon Festival. With the high winds this year you were once again cheap insurance that we would have a show no matter what the weather. But more importantly, you guys have become an entertainment segment of your own. Our visitors love the colorful kites you fly, the way you can make them dance to music and the other entertainment venues you have developed. Having a great DJ adds immensely to the program as well. We look forward to working with the team again next year. The Dates are July 1-4, 2000! I'm anxious to talk with you about using your great loudspeaker system too."WaynePutting It To Work
Name your team with an eye toward marketing to a non-kite audience.
· Do an inventory of what can form elements of your show. Besides sportkites, think of field displays, fighter battles, big static kites, juggling, whatever! Kite trains and tails are also a big hit. Music that you would never think of flying in competition should be considered, patriotic and popular tunes work well. Ricky Martin would make the teenies watch you closely! "Flyin' La Vida Loca!"
· Put together a team brochure or booklet. Programs such as "Publisher" put this within reach of every team. Use the power of the media. In the immortal words of Will Yolen, "Claim victory and send press releases!"
· If you have the expertise, put together a team website. Include the URL in all of your promotional materials. For an excellent example, visit http://www.windwizards.com.
· Write narratives for your show, put them on tape along with your show music. Include plenty of explanations and anecdotes. Have narrative tapes ready for wind delays, or for crash cleanup. No dead air!
· Develop a mailing list, for event promoters, sponsors/potential sponsors, and local media.
· Mail your marketing materials, and a short video if you have a good one.
· Follow up with your contacts by phone or e-mail.
· Rehearse your show.
Over the last five years, we have been on the same bill with the Marshall Tucker Band, Louise Mandrell, the Flying Elvises (!), lawn mower races, lumberjack shows, and even something called "Slow Tractor Races".
Besides balloon festivals, there are many other venues that may be willing to book a kite team. Be creative. I am confident that we, or any other team, could find paying gigs for every weekend of the year, if we work at it hard enough. We have been approached by booking agents, but decided to do the work ourselves. Using an agent may be the right approach for you, however.
Whether it's an air show, a company picnic, a county fair, or a rock festival, exposing the public to modern kiting is a good thing. Allowing it to pay for your team expenses is a very good thing.
I would like to give a special thanks to the fliers who have helped us at the Lisle Festival for the last five years - St. Elmo's Fire Drill and the Chicago Fire.
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Photos courtesy of Erez Borowsky
David (Quan) Bui, a renowned kitemaker, and one of the top sportkite fliers in the world, was tragically killed in an auto accident in Mexico on July 16, 1999. Following are some recollections of David from a few of his many, many friends.
I received some sad news on Sunday. David Bui, a good friend to me and many others in Kiting was killed in a car accident.David was a member of the original core of the KCKC. I can remember calling everyone and getting six people to gather in the back of Wind Wizards for our first meeting. David served as the club treasurer from Spring 1992-1994.
David had an aerospace engineering degree from Kansas University and lived his life with a passion for things that fly and in particular human-powered flight. Shortly after his graduation David stumbled across my store Wind Wizards. I spoke with David about modern kiting and his enthusiasm for flying was quickly fueled. In the following weeks David spent countless hours a day at the shop helping out and absorbing all the knowledge he could. He literally worked in the shop without pay until finally Carolyn and I felt bad and hired him as an official employee. His inauguration into kites had begun!
David was very meticulous in his nature and pushed himself for constant improvement. His biggest competitor was always himself. Perfection was never quite good enough for David when it came to his craftsmanship or kiteflying. He became Wind Wizards "Technical Engineer" and took care of all the kite repairs, modifications, and upgrades. His unquenchable thirst for knowledge kept driving him to higher levels.
Time passed .....and I had just started competitively kite flying on the circuit, wanting to share my enthusiasm I tried to talk David into competing. He wanted no part of competing and said he would never do that. Finally with the help of Frank Kenisky, we coerced him into his first try at competitive kiteflying. With David's personality this meant hundred of hours of preparing a "solid" routine by listening to every beat of the music and "finger flying" every chance he got.
More time passed and David is noted for his accomplishments.
David and I quickly became friends and began traveling to festivals together all over the nation. Although David didn't have a highly competitive nature his strong ambitions to strive for personal improvements shows in his daily life. David quickly accelerated to the top ranks of competition. David also maintained his love of the science and construction of kites by flying his own kite design, the Phoenix. David was awarded some of the top honors in Kiting.
· 1995 Outstanding Kiteflyer of the Year by American Kite Magazine.· 1995 American Kite National Circuit Masters Champion MIP & MIB· 1995 All American Sportkite Championships Champion MIP & MIB.· 1995 AKA Grand Nationals Champion MIP.· AKA Grand Nationals Champion in Comprehensive Kitemaking - cellular.· AKA Grand Nationals Champion for Innovative Kite Award.Amongst all the traveling and crazy times we shared, I most fondly remember going to San Diego, California on a whim to learn how to Paraglide. We spent two weeks training with the top Paraglider instructor in the World obtaining a Class One pilots license and obtaining our own equipment. This was the ultimate in chasing the wind! We flew like two birds, surging into air with a freeing weightlessness. With no motor or music you could just hear the sound of your own heart and the sounds of flying. The wind whipping past your face, the openness of the sky with no traffic, and hardly even a sense of time .
Whether experiencing the edge of competition, the thrill of victory, or the spiritual symbiosis with the natural world around us, David was always clear and level headed. What I thing I admire most about David was his eager desire to learn and improve everything. He will forever be fondly remembered and sorely missed!
- Chris M. Moore
At Grand Haven one spring, David flew his usual dominating precision. I heard one person comment that David didn't fly straight lines; his lines actually followed the Earth's curvature. If you ever saw him fly, you know this is true.I still fly the Phoenix -- the precision kite David designed -- and used it for all my wins in 1997-1998. Like David, the kite isn't flashy; it doesn't do tricks, it just locks onto a line and stays there, does perfect square turns, slides across the entire window, stalls all day long, and wins. For those who never knew David, fly a Phoenix some time and you'll begin to understand.
- Phil Broder
I have known Quan (David) Bui for approximately eight months.Occasionally you meet a person who shines brightly. Quan was this person. My company employed Quan and even more so, he was my dear friend. I would like to say a few words to tell people how I feel about Quan.
You may or may not know, that Quan was an intense person. Quan immersed himself in everything he did. Whether it was flying a kite, purchasing a new "toy", or working on a new project, Quan wanted to know everything about the item. Quan researched to make sure he had every bit of information before he started the project.
Quan was a perfectionist. Whatever he started, he did not stop until it was perfect. Although Quan expected perfection, he was patient with everyone involved.
Quan had a leadership quality that few have. Quan worked with people to help them improve. He had the ability to communicate his level of intensity and perfection to others. Quan would bring everyone up to a higher level.
Quan's intensity, perfectionism, and leadership was contagious. This relates to the friendship he had with everyone. Everyone loved to be with Quan. I remember walking through the factory with Quan. Everyone in production wanted to spend time with Quan, to show him that their work was up to his standards. He made everyone around him proud of their level of work. Quan was everyone's friend, spending time planning group trips, helping pay for those who could not afford to pay, and making sure that
EVERYONE who wanted to go could go.
Quan's loyalty to everyone was without question. I could tell Quan everything. I know many people who could, and did, the same. It is not often, as a business owner, that you find an employee who cares about your business as much as you do. Quan was that type of person. Quan spent endless hours trying to get my business to where it needed to be in order
to succeed. I never had to tell Quan to do anything, only to take a break, or to take some time off!
Quan's honesty was refreshing. I received daily e-mail reports from Quan. I could count on the information I received. Quan told it how it was, direct and without any sugar coating. I know that everyone around Quan felt the same way.
I am happy that Quan had the opportunity to see his hard work come to fruition. I am also happy that I have had a chance to meet and spend time with Quan. Quan has made my life brighter. I am very sorry he is gone and I will miss him very much. I am sure that Quan will make Heaven a better place. Knowing Quan, he is talking to G-D into getting e-mail, and perhaps we will receive a message from Quan.
- Erez Borowsky
During David's stay in southern California, he competed briefly, but spent more of his time judging, teaching, and giving considerable assistance to running local events. I had been lucky enough to have been at Wildwood when he won individual honors at the AKA Nationals so when he first moved out here I contacted him immediately and asked him to practice with Team Airwest. As good as he was as an individual flier, he may have been an even better team flier. Troy Gunn referred to David's style as pure. And I might add further, perfect. When he flew with us, we didn't need no stinkin' video. We had Dave. Ninety degree turns, plus or minus 10 seconds. Horizontals you could calculate the earth's curvature with. Verticals that seemed to be flown on a plumb line. And, the only kite that could match better than David's kite, would have had to be one that was on a stack.We recruited him heavily, but to no avail. David had a fierce loyalty to his own sponsor, Skyburner and refused to compete with any other kite. He also said that he could not commit to the amount of practice time he needed to feel comfortable to be able to compete on a high level. Too bad for us. We didn't care if he didn't practice that much (it would have just given us more time to catch up). Heck, we would've even changed the name of the team if he had wanted.
Now that he's gone, all we have are these memories. He was a man with a deep sense of loyalty to his friends, who was powerfully committed to always doing the right thing. He was a person that lived a life where each day received his best effort. He was principled, full of a rare honesty and humility he shared with everyone he knew. He was a great man who also loved to fly kites.
- Bert Tanaka
Steve Rogers of Kaleidokites fame in Eureka Springs Arkansas (USA) has a fun fly each year to kick off the season. One of the first years Cliff and I went, David Bui was there too. I had watched him compete in masters class for a year and to this day he is the image of a Masters Class flier to me.Steve Rogers with a lot of help from his wife Linda do not have traditional competition - they have games. One game in particular was very good. Tails were velcroed to Dynakites and you had to be the last kite in the air with tail intact. I was a beginner flier and could barely keep a kite in the air anyway. But we competed two at a time and I kept winning. Eventually it was David Bui and me - I can not tell you how nervous I was. David was my friend, but he was also the best flier I had ever seen. I figured he would take me out first try. But this wasn't about talent or skill (I had neither) and I won. I still have the fighter kite I won hanging on the wall. It was a silly and wonderful time and so much fun.
It isn't much of a claim to fame, Larry Stiles caught the entire thing on video. David was laughing the whole time. Even if I had lost - it would still be my favorite memory of David Bui.
- Collette Lemons
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For many of us who grew up in the Sixties or earlier, the weekly "Lassie" TV show was a must-see. Lassie was a remarkable collie who had the uncanny ability to find her way home from faraway places. When we received the following two stories, we thought of good old Lassie.
The One That Didn’t Get Away
Tale of the Fisherman and a Kite Flier
By Kerry Haines
Have you ever wondered what a fisherman and a kite flier have in common? I never did until one July weekend in Berkeley, California 1999. I suppose I should tell this story from the beginning as it is almost too incredible to believe.
I hail from Washington state and am an avid sport kite flier who enjoys competing too. In the few years that I have been involved with the sport, I often heard that the Berkeley Kite Festival was a must in the repertoire of events. I decided to attend after a little bit of convincing from friends to see for myself exactly what the Berkeley mystic was all about. My journey began one week prior so I could first tour the sights of Oregon and look forward to Berkeley, the wind, the people, and of course the fun.
Arriving the Berkeley Marina that Friday July 23rd , I could see the crisp clear blue sky already filled with colorful single and dual line kites. The view from the flying field was awesome. The San Francisco Bay surrounding the flying field and distant overlooking hills were a spectacular site - I think enhanced more so being a first timer. The winds too were awake and lively blowing 17-23 mph seemingly changing speed every few seconds. I was extremely anxious to get my kite up into the air and fly.
I fly primarily Miguel Rodriguez’s California Wasp Kukulkan kites. I compete as an individual, on a pairs team and also a 3-person team. With the winds blowing 17+ mph, I pulled out my vented sail version kite, 125’ of line, and new straps. Raring and ready to go I was! After an educational two hours of Berkeley Wind flying, I decided to take a break and visit some of the other folks who had arrived. It seemed like a good idea at the time anyway.
It is always a pleasure to chat with friends, other fliers, and spectators at various events. Berkeley was no exception as Miguel Rodriguez, Brian Champie, Paul DeHope, Dan Brown and many others were at the field early too. A great opportunity to speak with some talented people and learn new tricks. It was approximately 35 minutes thereafter when the Berkeley flying
field poltergeist made its appearance.
My kite, which was securely staked down, suddenly shot upwards as if it were possessed! I watched in disbelief as it zoomed directly to the top of the wind window, ripping my stake out of the ground. The kite flipped onto its back and raced toward the now not-so-lovely San Francisco Bay waters. Being a former distance runner, I never realized how fast 17 mph winds were until that mind shattering moment when I had to sprint after my straps which were speeding away from me at what seemed like Warp 8. Unfortunately only being able to run at a top speed of Warp 6, I tried to convince myself it was all a dream as I reached the edge of the flying field and viewed in horror my kite landing 200 meters out into the white-capped bay. My kite, one of only four vented Kukulkans in the United States, was seized by the icy grip of the cold waters as it drifted quickly away from me with no hope of retrieving it.
Within minutes my kite keeled over and "Titanically" sank along with my heart into the dark depths of the San Francisco Bay.
There is no way to describe the multitude of rampaging feelings that overcame me. It was certainly not a "Kodak Moment" knowing the competition events were taking place the following two days and flying the team event without my vented kite would be a true challenge if the winds were strong. Saturday arrived and passed with minimal trauma. The morning pairs event went well as the winds were light. More challenging was the team event which was held in the afternoon. We barely survived the high wind conditions with our standard sail version kites. However, that foggy Sunday morning held a ray of hidden sunshine just for me.
I was removing kites from the field when I noticed my pairs team flying partner, Dan Brown, walking toward me with what looked like my lost-in-the-bay vented kite! Beside him was a man holding a fishing pole and tackle box. I hurriedly approached them to confirm that the kite I was seeing, was actually mine and how this could be. Dan introduced me to the fisherman whose name was James. James had a fish story to tell and it went like this: James was trolling the San Francisco Bay bottom and hooked onto
what he thought was a "big one" until he realized it was a kite. Even more amazing, James was fishing on the OTHER side of the bay - at least one mile away from the flying field where I had lost my kite! He came to the park not to find the true owner of the kite, (as he didn’t know the kite had recently been lost) but rather, to fly it! Fortunately for me, and unbelievable luck,
Dan saw James preparing to fly it and after hearing my kite tale, James was a true gentleman and returned it to me.
I am a happy kite flier now. My kite is currently in the skillful hands of Miguel Rodriguez as I write this. He is meticulously inspecting it for integrity weakness’ after being submerged in the San Francisco Bay for two days. My trip to the Berkeley Kite Festival was certainly an emotionally packed memory that I truly will never forget. Did I have fun? You bet! It was a great festival that also offered the added opportunity to learn that a fisherman and a kite flier DO have a lot in common!
Happy Ending
By David Gomberg
Had a great time in Newport, but wanted to share a short story that really made the weekend for me.
Rumor has it that I’m not the most child-oriented flier on the field. Not true! Not true!
Anyway, on Saturday morning, this couple with two young kids park nearby, come wandering across the field and stop near me to look around. I say hello, tell them more about the festival and invite each of them to fly (hold) my kite. I joke with the kids. We talked for about fifteen minutes, then they said thanks, smiled, and get back into the car.
Several hours later, I headed over to the main field for the rok battle, even though I hadn’t brought my regular fighting kite or line.
Minutes into the first heat, Pauly from Boston gets cut. His kite drifts back across the field toward mine, so I’m cautious to keep my line slack so I’m not cut. But instead, the loose line twists around mine near the bridle point and cinches tight. The line knots up and suddenly, I’m flying both kites!
(In my years of fighting, I’ve only seen this happen twice. And each time, it has happened to me...)
Anyway, there is about fifty feet on line between the two roks and they are pulling HARD. Worst of all, I can’t maneuver because every time I try to move, my kite hits his line and flips around. I’m *vulnerable”. Hell - I’m a sitting duck!! And I’m wondering how many people on the field have come to my rok workshops and heard my fighting mantra -- “if someone is having trouble -- give them *more* trouble”.
I decide to pull in and try and fight with Pauly’s kite. It is more maneuverable, and besides, if his line is cut (again) I’ll still be in the fight. Good strategy. Quick thinking. But as I pull in the heavy load, someone hits me and slices my line. Both kites drift away.
Now here’s the fun part. My kite is falling into the slower surface winds. Pauly’s is up where it is blowing. So the one kite becomes an anchor for the other and in perfect equilibrium, they both sail away without dropping a foot...
After a few moments, the kites drift completely out of sight. They are past the tree line and being from out of town, I don’t know if they are headed towards forest, residential neighborhoods, or out over open water. Pauly and I share a ‘what the heck’ laugh, and I run over to get another kite for round two.
Not having good fighting line (excuses here), I get cut out toward the end of round two and head into the bushes (and stickers!) to retrieve my second kite. It’s been half an hour since the first kites sailed away. Incredibly, as I’m coming out of the woods, I hear the announcer saying that the missing kites have come back!!!
I look across the field and to my double amazement, I see that they have been returned by the same couple that I was talking to earlier in the morning. Apparently, they found the kites on a golf course four miles away!
I’m so elated, I offer to give them Pauly’s kite as a reward!
Anyway, I thought the story was a good one. Be nice to people. It makes them and you feel good, and sometimes reaps bonus rewards.
The moral of the story? This would have never happened in New Jersey....
Thanks Sue, Steve and all the New England folks for a great weekend.
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July 17 & 18, 1999
Featured Kite Entertainers
Ron and Sandy Gibian (Master Kite Artisan, Ron designed the official logo for the event - California) - He and Sandy displayed many of the "Colors in Motion" single line kites including the spectacular Gem Collection & the Squid. Ron and Sandy are veterans of the festival, having participated, supported and worked all 7 SOKFs. They were indispensable at the field as well as the Banquet/Auction. Great work as usual! Take a peek at their web page - http://www.gibiankites.com and if you haven't had the opportunity to see or purchase a kite from Ron, email him for information regarding his festival tour. You won't regret it.
Bay Area Sundowners - This popular team from the San Francisco, CA area wowed the crowds with their Hyperkite Stacks for the 7th year running. In spite of challenging wind conditions on Saturday they performed brilliantly as usual. Barry Nash, Ken Osterlund, Craig Wong and Gordon Osterlund were observed having a very good time flying & playing after hours. Perfect, light wind conditions on Sunday allowed these showmen to really show their stuff! We were all treated to the same program the King of Thailand requested to be flown at his royal birthday party in Bangkok at the Thailand International Kite Festival. What an honor it was that we were able to witness a repeat of this amazing performance!
Their URL is http://www.bayareasundowners.com/
Peter Betancourt (Master Kite Designer/Builder of fine Dual Line Sport Kites - Oregon)- Regardless of the wind conditions throughout the weekend Peter brought smiles to the faces of the entire crowd as he flew his beautiful kites and his rainbow tails. Flying to a broad selection of music, including Bryan Adams, Gloria Estafan, Frankie Moreno & Diane Schure, Peter utilized the limited field space, bringing the magic of the kite & tail within reach of all spectators surrounding the entire area. You can read more about Peter and his kites at http://www.sportkite.com
Carl Braigiel (Master Kite Flyer - Oregon) - Known as a "One Man Kite Team", Carl flies three kites at once each with separate controls. The oohs & aahs coming from the crowd best described the beauty and expertise Carl has now been demonstrating for 9 years. His ground crew consisted of his lovely wife Lisa who also did a fantastic job as support crew for everyone involved in the festival. This was their 5th year participating in the event.
Centrifigal Force (AKA Masters Class Pairs Team - Washington) - Dan Brown and Kerry Haines, nephew & uncle duo, have been competing in the Northwest Region since 1998. They completed their first season, fourth in Experienced Class and have performed brilliantly this season in Masters Class taking first place at the Berkeley Kite Festival, 1999. They most assuredly inspired many new kite flyers to excel as they have with their excellent choreography, precision and grace. Good show guys!
We would be remiss if we didn't mention the great performances of Master Dual Line flyers, Al Washington (Washington), Steve Bates (Washington), Jim Baldo (Oregon), Tim Helwig (California) & John Gabby (Colorado). These guys all put on amazing performances exhibiting a wide variety of styles.
Eric Forsberg (Washington), Lindsey Johnson (Oregon), Doc Counce (Oregon), Sheri O'Brien (Oregon), Bill & Connie Lester (Washington), John & Mary Gabby (Colorado), Dale and Calvin Vanderhoof (California) plus the members of the Rogue Valley Windchasers put on an incredible single line kite show. These generous folks worked diligently throughout the weekend, displaying not only their kites, but working together to display some of the finest single line kites in the world to the many spectators cheering them on. Very impressive folks!!!
Ronda Brewer took charge of the Kids Kite Making Workshop and Parade on Saturday. Ronda worked tirelessly aside everyone the entire weekend making sure that there were enough hands to display all the kites and magically appeared whenever someone needed assistance. What an amazing asset this lady is to any festival.
Rick Talbott and Steve O'Brien were the "Masters of Ceremony" both days, announcing each event seamlessly, describing the single line displays in great detail as well as graciously giving credit to the many wonderful Brookings sponsors who made this festival possible. Not a cue was missed by these two experts who handled the weekend with seemingly effortless grace. Our hats are off to them!
This is a unique & not to be missed event. Please mark your calendars for July 2000 when the Southern Oregon Kite Festival will go into its 8th year!
You can visit the SOKF home page here - http://www.sokf.org
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Beyond World Cup
It would seem that World Cup X is not going to happen as announced earlier this year. The political and economic situation in Colombia continues to worsen, leaving the country with more important tasks than to host a kite event. No official announcement has been made at this point.
Meanwhile, rumors continue to grow of a replacement event to be staged early next year, in the style of the Intercontinental Sportkite Challenge held in Guadaloupe in '97. Those involved in the planning are being very tight-lipped, but from the few facts we have gleaned, competition will be held for teams, pairs, and individual dual and quad fliers. A formal announcement should be forthcoming soon.
We will immediately post a special report when this announcement is made.
MiniKites at AKA
AKA Miniature Kite Gallery
October 5-9 in Muncie, Indiana
"The Largest Display of Miniature Kites Ever Assembled"
On October 5-9, 1999 we will attempt to display over 500 miniature kites in the White River Room at the Muncie Convention Center in Muncie, Indiana. The room has 1,800 square feet! Visitors are welcome to browse the display:
Wed, Oct 6 -- 6-8 pm
Thu, Oct 7 -- 7-10 pm
Fri, Oct 8 -- 3-5 pm
Sat, Oct 9 -- 9-11 am
Can you contribute to this goal? Your miniature kite must be able to fly and it cannot be larger than 10" in any dimension. We will attempt to display all kites.
Can you bring miniature kites? Can you help?
Please send email to: davisong@aol.com
Thanks,
Glenn Davison, Gallery Curator
Kites On Ice 2000 Preview
Any stationery that sports the slogan, "Wisconsin Winter: it's so cold you don't have to be Jesus to walk on water" should make you sit up and take notice. And if it doesn't, the list of flyers slated to attend the second Kites On Ice should. Set for February 3-5, 2000, on Madison's Lake Monona and inside the Monona Terrace Convention Center, the festival is clearly trying hard to top its 1999 showstopper. Those of you who attended the first one won't soon forget the roving gangs of kite skiers zooming across the ice, the awesome variety of kites in the sky, the incredible indoor kite gallery, the Decorators' Rev revolution, indoor fighter kite battles, the laser-lit night fly, and the 20,000 spectators who braved the frigid winds just to play with kites. (Insiders may also remember the lost luggage, multiple layers of sweat-reeking long underwear, gigantic cracks in the ice, and bottles of Kite Tail Ale. If you can remember the Sunday night post-festival party, you weren't really there.) Those of you who missed 1999 will definitely want to be there next winter, bundled in a parka, fighting of frostbite, wondering "Why 2K?"
Organizers Linda Underwood, Angie Tyler, and Craig Wilson are putting together a similar slate of events as last year. All but two of last winter's flyers have committed to the 2000 event, and several new flyers have been added. The current guest list includes:
USA
Pete Dolphin
David and Susan Gomberg
Nelson Borelli
Charlie Sotich
Janene Evard
Scott Skinner
Chicago Fire
Torrey Lindemann
Lee and Sue Sedgwick
Roger Chewning
Craig Wilson
Margo Brown
Ron and Sandy Gibian
Jack Rogers
Charmaine and Bob Umbower
Jose Sainz
Jeff Howard
Jerry Houk
Steve Shapson
Mike Delfar
Richard Dermer
Phil Broder
JoAnn Weber
Al Sparling
Mike Gee
Canada
S.T.A.F.F.
Yves La Forest and Anne Clement
Robert Trepanier
England
The Decorators
Anne and Chris Harris
France
Chantal Barrett
Pierre Fabre
Germany
Wolfgang Grimsel
Sven Weidhase
Andreas Schmeelke
Frank Schwiemann
Also invited but still not confirmed are George Peters, Ray Bethell, Michael Alvarez, Ton Vinken, Pete Rondeau, Dragoni Volanti, and Lisa Schirmer.
Kites On Ice 2000 could the the sort of event where you don't even need to bring kites of your own. Just bring plenty of film for your camera, some BenGay for the kink in your neck from looking up all day, and spikes for your boots.
SoCal Sportkite Schedule 2K
Here is the 2000 Southern California Sport Kite League Schedule and Locations:
3/25/00
Southern California Open
Fiesta Island, San Diego, CA
5/6/00
Belmont Shore Sport Kite Challenge
Belmont Shore, CA
7/8/00
Long Beach Sport Kite Classic
Belmont Shore, CA
9/23/00
Huntington Beach Kite Tournament
Huntington Beach, CA
-
The dog days of summer have seen the cessation of the previous month's [June... (c8] flame wars. We do enjoy the positive contributions that so many make. Keep up the good work!
Once again I'm indebted to the faithful BORK staff:
- Craig Rodgerson
- Peter C. Hugger Editor
This page is a summary of postings on the rec.kites Usenet news group that our editors believe to be interesting and useful. Opinions expressed in these postings are not those of KiteLife Magazine or its staff.
Building Contents
- Ozone Reframe
- Feathers
- Curved LEs
- Bungee
- Couplings
- Kitebuilding
- Edo
- Seam Tape
Ozone Reframe
Before we go into a discussion of what is the best light wind kite is, Let me say that my mind is made up already... So, how do you improve on a good kite? REFRAME!!!! does anyone have info on reframing the Ozone to a Super-ultra light kite and the Vapor to a just plain light wind kite? I have heard of people converting thier Vapor to a sturdier frame and also the Ozone to lighter frame. If this is true, what kind of spars were used? etc etc. Many thanks!!!
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I redid my ozone in all skinnies, and for the most part I really liked the added stiffness and reduced weight. Made it alot less floppy, and lighter. Indoor it really helped and I could get off some fountains and fades indoor. Unfortunately that big curve really stresses the skinny and if you stab, or even like axel landing or catch the tip hard in anyway, it will break the lle right below the ls connector. I broke 2 that way and decided that it was too fragile even though it felt really really good. The other thing is that the lle is a bit narrow so getting a skinny in there is kind tough and a pretty tight fit. If you want to reframe, I would suggest skyshark 2pt's or maybe the semi-mythical 1.5pt that is rumored to exist in a few people's lucky hands. the skyshark seem a bit more durable on the light side I think because they are thinner diametered but thicker walled keeping the crush down. They weigh close enough to the skinnies that I am pretty sure it would still rock. I may give that a go soon with a 2pt frame. Anyway, just thought I'd my 2 cents.
Walt Peace and Good Winds.
Feathers
I started sewing on a 16' wind feather without doing my homework. I started with a 5'x16' piece of black and hot cut holes in it I then layed "rectangular" pieces over the holes and sewed them down with a "ric-rac" stitch (three stitches to the left followed by three to the right - repeat forever). I then (foolishly) cut the rectangle down to within 1/8" of the edge of the stitching. Now I am getting worried (I am about 60% done).. will the cut edges of the "rectangles" fray? If so what should/can I do to stop it. It would seem quite hard to hot cut the rectangles without damaging the black background. The flags I have seem to zigzag this edge down. Is that sufficient? Any help is much appreciated.
-- I fly, therefore I am, ...... happy :^) ! John Biggs
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Hans de Jong wrote:
Very dear fellow kiters (always start nice if you want something), I'm planning to build a "feather banner", the ones you use to mark your territory, to help people find you on a crowded festival, that helps your kid to find you back on a crowded beach (mine has the age of -3 months, so the banner could be ready in time) or just something that keeps you in touch with your hobby when building it on a "not possible to fly today"-day.
I'm need some good tips/plans on some questions e.g.:
- Should I pre-curve it, or let the wind do its work
- Should I use a tunnel to slide it over a fishing rod, or will loops be sufficient.
- What is a save length/ area ratio
- Does the "leading edge" needs extra reinforcement to protect it against flapping
Thanks in advance, Hans de Jong
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It realy depends on what kind of material you are using...some will fray more than others....
You can go to your neighborhood sewing center and buy a product called fray check... put this on the edges and hope for the best...... once applied you can not see the fray check on the material.
Good Luck :-) Dick Bell
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This is a great site for learning how to make banners. You might start here.
Collette
http://www.geocities...336/banner.html
Curved LEs
Hi all,
Is there a key to sewing a nice, smoothly curved Dacron leading edge on kites? I've done quite a few, but it's always a struggle. I usually end up with a small pucker in the Dacron.
What I do is use 1/4" seam stick tape and fit the LE to the sail, taking care to align everything. It seems tho', that in spite of my best efforts, about 3/4 down the LE, the Dacron is starting to pucker a bit.
I don't have a Pfaff <YET>, just a home machine.
Any tips?
much appreciated,
Steve
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suggestion #1, don't use seamstick tape. you need to allow the LE tape to crimp very slightly between stitches to form the curve. see also #2
Suggestion # 2, use a zig'zag stitch. this will allow a very slight gather between each stitch for a smooth curve.
Suggestion # 3, use as narrow a LE tape as possible, while still allowing for the width of the stitches and the spars. since the real problem here is that the inside edge of the LE tape is scribing to a curve which is shorter than the outside edge, reducing the width of the tape minimizes this difference.
Suggestion #4, sew fast. this will reduce your tendency to overcorrect after each stitch, and will produce smoother curves and more consistant stitching.
Suggestion #5, design your "curved" LE as a series of straight lines, and sew these as straight lines with short transitions between each segment. With the LE spar in place and under tension, the resultant LE will have an effective curve, and arguably the same effective fkying characteristics.
These same tips also apply to hemming "inside" curves on the trailing edge. There are practical limits to how severe a curve you can use and still keep a smooth, flat appearance.
Stan Swanson
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yes, you need to prestretch the outside edge of the Dacron so, fold the Dacron over, and draw the folded edge over a sharp corner, like the edge of a table, so just the folded side stretches.
now, if you lie the folded dacron on the floor, it should take on a curve. no need to match the leading edge curve exactly though, approx is near enuf.
now, you can glue or tape it to the kite, and when sewing it will be more likely to fit the curve without puckering
====================================================================
Although I am quite the novice at sewing and building, I'll give my experience on this. I find that keeping the LE very straight and bending the sail material into the LE works better for me. The first time I tried, I bent the Dacron and ended up with a very ugly looking LE. I also use the seam tape and that works for me. Also make sure you use a sharp needle, if it makes a popping sound it is dull. That is about the extent of my knowledge so good luck.
Krazy Kat
Bungee
Can someone please tell me the recommended way of sealing the cut end of a piece of bugee core to prevent it fraying? I hesitate to put it in a flame 'cos if I make a burning rubber smell in the kitchen my wife might object.
And how do you tie it? On my Fizz BoT, the wingtip bungees seem to be made into a loop just with a running knot - not sure whether it simply relies on the elastic properties of rubber to prevent it "running" or whether it has a drop of adhesive on the knot to hold it.
Ta - Philip
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I melt the end slightly. I burn it outside as not to offend my family's noses.
I have found that the elastic properties work fine in keeping the knot in place on the bungee depending on the amount of weight/force it will be under.
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A flame is in fact, a bad idea... ;-), but some glue (or super glue) helps. A drip of super glue on a fresh cut prevents the bungee from fraying.
Usualy the running knot holds, but the "big" knot is sometime not desired because it may catch the line during flatspins. A simple hair bungee is better solution. If the length does not fit you may glue the ends together. A few wraps sewing yarn helps to fix the ends.
Ralph
====================================================================
Hi Philip, I usually use the flame but only enough to melt the nylon covering. I usually use a reef not as I find it easy to adjust the tension, especially on kites with alot of camber in the L/E. I then apply a drop of super glue to the knot and pull it tight to work the glue well into the knot. Always place the knot on the inside/front of the kite at the eyelet as it won't catch your lines. Ialso use the reef knot because it sits very flat and is less likely to catch line. Another alternative is to tape around the bungee and then cut it through the tape. Hope this helps
Goodwinds Steve McCormack
Couplings
Hello all,
I have a construction question. What is the propper method of coupling spars? When an external coupling is used, is it simply glued to one of the spar sections, and if so, what kind of glue is best? Are there any important points that I might not consider as a newbie to kite construction? Thanks in advance.
Brian
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The glue to use is Cyanoacrylate aka 'Krazy Glue', 'Zap-A-Gap', etc. Use the gap-filling type, the better brands come in different viscosities. You don't want the really thin stuff, it'll run down the inside of an 32 1/2" cm spar and glue the spar to your elbow. (voice of experience)
The thicker glues do not set as quickly, but it gives you time to position the ferrule on the spar. Also time to unstick your finger from the spar. (V.O.E.)
I use P.M.Hansen's Insta-Cure+. I get it at a hobby store. It's just as good as Zap_A-Gap, my previous glue of choice, but 1/3 cheaper.
Don't buy huge quantities, the glue seems to go bad over time. If you're a keen builder, 1/2 oz is enough to keep you going for awhile.
If you can get a small bottle brush, such as used to clean test tubes, a quick brush on the inside of the spar to be glued to clean the dust from the interior will help bonding.
I mark on the spar where I want the ferrule to be, usually 1 1/2". I cut the ferrules at 3" for most kites. This is so I can place the ferrule accurately on the spar _before_ the glue sets. (V.O.E.)
If you have any other questions, don't hesitate to ask.
happy building!
Steve
====================================================================
The simple method is just to wrap some PVC tape around the coupling and the spar - no strength is needed, you just want to keep the coupling positioned so the join is in the middle. If you break a spar you can easily peel off the tape and salvage the coupling.
- Philip (P.S. The in-crowd refer to external couplings as ferrules.)
====================================================================
What are you doing with the kite? If you enter it into any builder’s competition, the tape method will cost you points. I use Epoxy on all of my joints, but whatever adhesive you use you should clean the contact areas of the spar and ferrule before applying glue. You won’t believe how much release agent is on the insides of a ferrule until you brush it out.
I get my epoxy from a custom fishing rod building supply house. It remains slightly flexible when it sets up. Clean up is easy with a little rubbing alcohol.
If you want it to be beautiful, try thread wrapping. Any rod builder or old-fashioned tackle shop can help you out. I am going to do my first one this week. To see some fantastic work, look at Glen or Tana Haynes' kites. WOW!!!!!!!
I find that Cyanoacrlate gives up the ghost in about 1 year, so I only use it for emergency repairs.
Keep it Breezy, Kitesquid
Kitebuilding
Hi all! I'm a newbie kitebuilder and have run into a couple of things I wanted to ask:
What do you use to trim applique? I've been using a seam ripper with mostly poor results. It worked fine for about three projects, but I suspect its dulled now - I'm getting fuzzy edges. It's also difficult to "steer" accurately and I'm not getting a consistent margin. Are applique scissors a better choice? Can they be re-sharpened? Are there any particular brands, models, that you would recommend?
Do you use a sewing table? Does the size/shape of the table matter? I built my own work table - it's roughly 4x8 with a laminate surface. I put a cut-out for my machine (Pfaff 760 Artist) in one corner that sets the machine flush with the surface of the table and use a table insert I purchased from the local sewing store to fill the opening. It looks real good, but I'm wondering if its the best approach. What I notice is that as I sew, the material is pushed out onto the table and this causes some drag, particularly if there's static, and that this can mess up the stitch. I also notice that it sometimes won't feed straight and suspect that drag between the outer edge of the material and the table surface might be "pulling" the material off-line. I can usually "steer" the piece to compensate, but I'm not always happy with the result. Would using a more typical sewing table be better? It seems like allowing gravity to take the material as it goes through might eliminate some of this... Someone locally suggested that my feed dogs might be worn, but I really don't think that's it as they seem plenty sharp. What do you think?
I'm new to this stuff and the above might just be "pilot error" on my part. I'd appreciate any insight or advice you experienced kitemakers might have to offer. Thanks!
Phil
====================================================================
You know these what we would call "nail scissors"? A small bent (to the left for the right handed ) scissor. Cause of the curved blades it's very easy to slide along the stitches. Good quality is a must: it has to stay very sharp to allow you to simply slide throug the ripstop instead of cutting.
>Do you use a sewing table?
I do: see my page for some sewing tips...
Regards, Peter
====================================================================
Hiya Philbert,
I'm a rank amateur too, and I mean way down on the beginning side of the learning curve. Let's compare notes and see if us newbies can learn a thang or two together.
Scissors are my choice for cutting away panels in applique. I have a pair of inexpensive Fiskers (they can be refreshed but not sharpened, so don't expect them to last a really long time) and a pair of Mundials (a little more spendy but they can be sharpened and last a long long time).
To get the initial cut into the panel, I pick at the waste fabric with the tip of a razor until I have enough of an opening to put the scissor tip into it and snip it to start cutting away. I've heard a tip about pre-cutting the panels before sewing, but I am afraid I would never find them later...lol.
Here's what I've learned so far with only a few projects under my belt.
1) Use the dull side of the scissor point "down" right to the table surface so it will glide effortlessly. If the bottom blade of the scissor is too pointy and sharp it can nick the table and give you problems.
2) Make your "cuts" on the left side of the stitching, meaning the stitching is along the right side of your scissors.
3) Angle your scissors about hmmmm, I guess 30 degrees or so from the table surface. I find that angle doesn't grab the cloth as much as slices thru it.
4) Only open the scissors enough to get a clean glide. Practice on scraps until you feel really comfie with the angle and sharpness of your scissors. Remember, the blunt or duller side of the scissor is on the table surface and gives alot of stability while you're cutting.
5) It's really important to keep the cloth smooth on a clean work surface. Remember too that you will be turning the applique around and around while you're cutting so be sure you have nothing inhibiting it on any of the sides. It goes much faster that way.
6) As you approach a corner, glide up close but do a quick snip about a 16th of an inch away from the seam. Oh yeah, I prefer a 16th inch border around the stitching when I'm not screwing up...lol. It looks nice and clean that way and also doesn't run the risk of snipping the stitching inadvertantly.
7) When you are in a corner and want to start a new cut, angle your scissors sideways, towards the stitching to pick up the same width, again, a 16th of an inch. Once you've got a nice clean corner, straighten your scissors up and glide away.
8) Listen to your cutting. There will be a different sound if you hit too close to the stitching...it will chatter a little bit. Don't panic just ease over a bit. ACK...easier said than done but you can correct it quickly.
9) On outside corners I think it looks nice if you cut it to points rather than try to curve them. It accentuates the line too.
Wow...I have gone on and on here. I hope I didn't confuse you too much. I'm learning too, but once you feel comfie with your angles, you will find cutting away to be really fast. In fact, in my first banner I noticed a decided difference between the first side and the second side. I can't wait to start a new project!!!
I think a sewing table stand works best for me. I lay the cloth in my lap, smooth it over the sewing stand on the left side and allow the feed to do the work for me while I simply keep the cloth smooth with my left hand and with the other guide it.
The machine I use is wonderful in that it holds the line beautifully. I have the sewing machine/table positioned about a foot away from the wall so the cloth can simply drape over allowing gravity to help me control it. I don't think I would like it if it were bunching up on an equal height surface.
I also tried something on my first project. I did applique panels which were really manageable and then sewed them onto the finished kite and cutaway the kite fabric. Did that on a Rok. But it was my first project and I was afraid to ruin a perfectly good kite if I messed up. It's a good way to learn but get away from that as soon as possible.
No Risk, No Rewards!!! LOLAs for the size of your work table, 4 x 8 is superb. It is big enough to allow a roll to be laid out and put into place for cutting. We have a sticky surface made of Borco that allows me to lay different components out for razor cutting and placement without the slippery fabric giving me a hard time. When I'm doing cleanup and cutaway I lay a clean piece of masonite over the sticky table.
Oh, I'm also a big time fan of double sided tape...1/4 inch. You can razor or hot slit your fabric, fold over to make your seam allowance, securing it with the tape and voila, you're ready to sew!
I do use a fine spray of 3M spray glue to affix the panels of cloth to the project. It really helps keep it all in place while sewing it, but I've heard of some other methods using hot tack. I haven't learned that yet.
Well, Philbert....there it is. I love working with applique. It's sooo rewarding!
ps....okay you old hands at this thing, don't be tooo critical. I'm painfully new at this, but love it nonetheless....lol. There's no stopping me now!!!!
Color My Sky, Ellen
Edo
I made a 2.4mtr x 1.4 mtr Edo according to the plans used by the NKG for the sky gallery. However I am fed up with the numerous miles of bridle. Does anyone out there know of a way to fly this on a single line. I suppose I would have to group the original bridle into two lots (top & bottom) and then from two lines to one line. Anybody done this before? Please help }:-(
Martin Attwater
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If I could reveal an easy way to deal with the bridle of your Edo, would you rethink modifying it? The Edo has survived hundreds of years of kite history as one of the most elegant flying kites ever conceived, and the key to this success, is its remarkable bridle. The multitude of thick sagging lines that make up the bridle of a flying Edo do much more than just support the network of fragile sticks that make up it's frame. A kite with it's stabilizing tail out in front is the legacy of the classic Edo.
That said, here is how to tame Rapunsel's locks. Sew a tube of cloth as long as your bridal and just big enough in diameter to easily hold all the bundled lines (say 36 mm, for a kite your size) sew one end shut, and with a rather large clip or safety pin attached to that closed end on the outside, and a piece of line also attached, running down the inside of the tube and out the other end. Knot this free end or attach a bead. Now comes the fun part. Clip to the line attachment point of the bridle of the kite. Now holding on to the line coming out of the tube, slide the tube inside out over the bridle lines toward the kite. The bridle lines will be drawn into the tube and kept tangle free. The open end of the tube is now at or near the sail of the kite with all the bridle lines coming from there attachment points at the sail, and going right into the tube. The open end of the tube may be held in place here with another small clip or safety pin to a loop on the face of the kite. Reversing the process deploys the bridle and up she goes. No muss no fuss and best of all we won't have to rename your kit from an Edo to a noodle. rjh.
====================================================================
Martin, I have yet to make a Edo. I have seen a number of them including one from Shorne, Japan. If you start eliminating bridle lines, the spines and cross spars will not be able to withstand the force's of the wind. In a strong wind all of the pressure on the sail will concentrate at one or two points on the frame and that's where it will break. With that said, I seam to recall a article in one of the kite magazines about Eiji Ohashi of Japan using a single line on what appeared to be a Edo. I don't know how large it is, and it seems to me it was not a traditional frame. He may also have used his famous balancers on it. From The Land of 10,000 Kite Flying Fields, (I can't wait until they freeze again, I have allergies) Jerry Houk
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What's more important: you'll not be building an Edo. The bridle is an intricate part of the design and adds greatly to the stability of the kite.
Without it it would just be another rectangular kite.
Regards, Peter
Seam Tape
can anybody please tell me where to get the good 3M seam stick tape? all I can find is a Very small amount of some kind of stuff that washes out in the laundry. it seems to work, however nobody in town stocks enough of that to build that Pizzazz kit - Is there any suggestions of other places to look other than sewing stores, and craft stores, and my local Phaff dealer?
I really Hate starting a project without all the stuff I need to finish it.
thanks!
Mikey luvs ya!
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'Mikey' - Hang-em-high has it <www.citystar.com/hang-em-high> I have a Pizazz kit also - haven't started it yet - small world. Art Gotta fly!
====================================================================
And if you are on the West Coast, I got a lotta the stuff too. Goodwinds Kites
- Craig Rodgerson
-
The dog days of summer have seen the cessation of the previous month's [June... (c8] flame wars. We do enjoy the positive contributions that so many make. Keep up the good work!
Once again I'm indebted to the faithful BORK staff:
- Craig Rodgerson
- Peter C. Hugger Editor
This page is a summary of postings on the rec.kites Usenet news group that our editors believe to be interesting and useful. Opinions expressed in these postings are not those of KiteLife Magazine or its staff.
Bridles Contents
- Basic Stunter
- Activated Matrix
- Activated Psycho
Basic Stunter
I purchased a Bandit made by Go Fly A Kite, a few months ago but cannot get it to stay up very long. The kite starts rocking side to side more and more then noses dives to the ground. I attempted to adjuster the bridle but now I'm afraid it's way off. Is there a measurement that would be a good starting point to level out the kite? Any other ideas that might correct this problem.
I also have a Thunderfoil from New Tech that I like very much. But I would like to use the Bandit and try some tricks. I'm starting to learn that perhaps the Bandit is not the best kite for this. It also seems to require alot of wind.
Lastly, I might want to pick up a better stunt kite that requires less wind but would like to stay under $60.00 US. Any suggestions?
====================================================================
There's usually some type of mark at the starting point for the bridle -- look for some type of black mark on the bridle string. If it doesn't exist, you can try adjusting the bridle attachments so they're about 1/3 of the way from the top of the bridle string, and then work downward (in 1/4 inch steps) until the kite seems stable in an 8-10mph wind.
I highly recommend the Beetle by Flying Wing. Most kite stores and on-line kite shops sell it for about $46 or so. Very durable, and with upgraded lines quite the trickster.
One place to look is http://www.intothewind.com; another is http://www.windpowersports.com (and no, I'm not an employee of either -- just a happy customer of both).
====================================================================
Hi Todd, hi folks.
To complement on Joseph post I would say that, on some kites, the bridle is black and the reference mark, when there is one, is usually of ligth color.
If you see no mark then try the following:
1 - Adjust the bridle as per Joseph suggestion.
2 - Hold the kite by the two tow points (the small loops of line or clips where you attach your control lines).
3 - The kite shall make an angle with the floor (or ground) such that the wing tips are a little lower than the nose.
4 - If the nose seems to low, your bridle adjustment is probably too heavy (or radical as some say it). Move the tow points up.
5 - If the nose seems to high, your bridle adjustment is too light. Move the tow points down.
Remember to adjust the two sides so they are identical. Use small increment while testing. Try to find the upper and lower limits and mark these on the bridle with a suitable pen. Someone, in this group, suggested using a sewing thread of constrasting color to mark the bridle. Then another mark in between can indicate the optimum setting.
Another point to check is that no bridle leg is wrapped around a spar. Generally, upper bridle legs goes on top of upper spreader (if there is one) and bottom bridle legs oes on bottom of lower spreaders.
I have observed that on most of the kites in my bags (yes I have two bags full, kites can become an addiction) the tow points are adjusted in such a way that if I pull down (toward trailing edge) on the bridle so as to flatten it against the frame and with the upper leg parallel to the spine, the junction of the bridle legs will be slightly lower than the lower spreader. This can also serves as an indication that your bridle is not too bad or in real need of some adjustment.
If your kite is relatively small (3 to 4 feet in wingspan), it may require some higher wind to fly than a full size kite (around 8 feet). I use the word may, because, today, with the craze for small indoor/low wind kites, you can find very small kites (2 feet wingspan or even less) that will fly in a puff of air.
A smaller kite will also require very small hand movements for control. And also, try to position your hands as if you were controling a bike (in front of you, with elbows at your side and sligthly in front of your chest. That way you can pull a little to steer and push back to resume straigth fligth.
Wind or no wind, fly for fun :-)
Jean (Johnny) Lemire
Activated Matrix
Hi,
the dimensions of an Active Bridle for the Flexifoil "Matrix" can be found on our team´s website (adress below). Just click on "Team Stuff" and you´ll also find bridle-dimensions for the Jam Session (HQ), the High Level (Level One) and the TrickTail (Flying Wings). Please be aware, that all dimensions are knot to knot - there´s nothing added for knots, loops etc.
Ciao!
Paul (Team Cloud Nine)
Activated Psycho
> I would like info on dimensions for an active (preferably) or
> dynamic bridle for a Psycho. Anyone tried this or have some
> numbers?
> -Kent : Utah Kite Nerd
I`ve been playing around with it for a couple of weeks now, and have found that a knot joining the 2 leading edge bridle lines 8cm from the metal ring seems to be a pretty good compromise. Try it and see what you think. The bridle reverts to standard pretty easily. Thanks to Andy Wardley for the idea. I started off with his settings for the Match box and then tamed it down some.
- Craig Rodgerson
-
The dog days of summer have seen the cessation of the previous month's [June... (c8] flame wars. We do enjoy the positive contributions that so many make. Keep up the good work!
Once again I'm indebted to the faithful BORK staff:
- Craig Rodgerson
- Peter C. Hugger Editor
This page is a summary of postings on the rec.kites Usenet news group that our editors believe to be interesting and useful. Opinions expressed in these postings are not those of KiteLife Magazine or its staff.
Buggies Contents
- Water Launching
- Ajax Foil
- Kite Surf Board
- Mountain Board
- Aquatic Kites
- Wipika
- Buggy Basics
- Technique
- Foil Design
Water Launching
Hi all, I was in my favourite kite shop today,( Kite Legends at mooloolaba. Just picked up my new N'Gen. Best kite in the world. Hi Jenny at Peter Lynn kites, Where's my free cap.) Anyway enough free plugs. I was watching a video about Buggying, Kite surfing etc. on it one guy was skiing behind a Quadrafoil. I was curious how he would re-launch this kite if he fell off the skis. Would he make sure the kite didn't hit the water? Or has he some mates in a boat which would go to his rescue? Or would he drop the lines and swim ashore? After all it was a promotional video and he probably didn't own the kite. Or are these easy to water launch? I don't intend to get one Just interested in how it would be managed. Wayne Holmes
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Ya win the special prize behind door number 2 buddy... Ya spotted the special effect... Kinda like seein' the Prof. behind the curtain in Wizard of Oz...
Seriously... With soft dual-surface para-foil wings... water in the cells can end an otherwise pleasant day of wind sailing. Of course, mates in a boat or watercraft can always be of assistance...
But the easiest way is to use long lines... 150' - 200' and keep the wing high above the water. Bigger wings also keep you bouyant (on top of the water) as they pull you along. Practise and control are crucial here.
There are more techniques and combinations of power and toy... Try new stuff and ways constantly in this just emerging sport.
Share what doesn't work as well as the occasional success.
aoxo coreykite@aol.com
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Hey Wayne, how go's it?
The thing with all ram air foils is to try not to crash. In the beggining i used to think it was a bigger problem than it is. That's not to say that you aren't going to swim. You are. Fritz just told me about an hour and a half swim he had the other day!
Anyway, you need to have a life jacket and be in good physical shape. Amazingly, when you fall off the board, out of the boat, you still know where the kite is if it's on longer lines. Tends to hold you up, too. I haven't crashed the kite in the last few times i've tried it, but i don't have my own board yet either.
Besides, it doesn't matter what kind of kite it is if the lines get tangled. The kite might be floating, but if you scrunch the landing up bad enough, you're still swimming.
total AoxomoxoA brought to you by. . . . . . dean jordan
Ajax Foil
I have been reading all the discussion on sail design the past few days (which I find quite interesting and informative).
I have built my first traction foil ( an Ajax modified per Udo Brackman's 3 meter design). The Ajax performed great on grass where there is quite a bit of rolling resistance, however on the hard packed surface of El Mirage dry lake bed I noticed that at about 30mph buggy speed the sail wanted to lag behind the buggy which would cause me to have to turn up wind and slow down a bit to let the sail catch up. Could this effect be caused simply by angle of attack of the sail or could all the other variables such as profile thickness, aspect ratio, sail curvature, etc. enter into this problem?
Would any of you foil designers have input on this? Thanks for any replies. I look forward to any further discussion on sail design issues.
Vince
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What was the wind speed and other contributing factors such as your angle to the wind . If the kite design is ok, you may have been going as fast as possible with the available wind, and travelling down wind at too close an angle which means having to move more windward.
If the wind ain't there you cant use it.
With a good foil the smaller the kite the faster the speed, my bet is the world record will be set with a 1.7 - 2.0m kite in a 30-40 knot wind .
30 mph is not a bad speed for a 3m in a 15mph wind. If it was blowing 20+ then take a good look at the bridle then build another design.
I have found the faster profile ( not necessarily slimmer although mostly this is the case) the faster it is to go down wind. however the top speed acheivable is normally very similar between designs and if rolling resistance is minimal size ie on a fast broad reach in winds of 20mph there will be little speed difference between a 2,3 and 4m kites but when its time to go upwind there will be a big difference.
Andy
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Another note. all my designs are quads as I enjoy racing.
Nope. I mean that each riser has its own primaries and secondary.the total length being about 3.5 x the chord of the kite for 3.9:1 AR (which I build all my kites at except the 1m design as its a pig to sew round a nose that small.) I also bridle the kite to be almost flat with just the slightest anhedral and use a standard bridle arrangement (ugly kink type) because if you fly a quad right you hardly notice it.
High aspect ratios and shaped skins really haven't proved themselves to be any thing other than a labour of love for the builders the n-gen has so far failed to set the world alight with its innovations and looks to be as popular as the quad peel. I know this will upset people but its my opinion. As I said before I build for buggying and a high aspect ratio above 4.5:1 gets to be a little too sensitive to gusty or turbulent wind conditions and constantly need to be moved through the air to generate useful pull. I have found 3.7 to 4.0 to 1 to be an excellent choice with performance and handling. any lower than 3.0 on the AR and the upwind performance just disappears.
Rectangular flat planforms with small winglets perform as well as elliptical curved planforms. (There I have said it and be damned.) they just perform differently. If a rectangular foil deforms and bananas slightly so what. As long as the deformation is only slight and does not affect the flight performance its only athstetic .
-Debra Smith and Paul Watson
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I also prefer quads. I've been making parafoils for a number of years and can't recall making a dual line kite for power. This is my paragliding background making itself felt. I can't abide a parafoil without provision for angle of attack change! I learned to buggy with (own design) rectangular planform, docile airfoil kites and am all the better for it, I think. Confidence in my kites allowed me to develop fairly confident and fluid buggy control. This means that I can make the meanest, most uncompromising prototypes and not be a bundle of nerves after a few hours on the beach in strong wind. Still, dual lines have their place, as I was reminded a week or two ago in a grass field with a strong gusty offshore wind (Are you lurking Chris?)
Can't say that I've raced though because there probably aren't enough people buggying in Australia + it is a bloody big country and so many of the ideal spots (Lake Gairdiner, Nth Queensland beaches) are a long way from the major population centers. Maybe one day, although I must say that I am not so competition oriented. Perhaps I'll eventually make it to the U.K. and Europe to check out the racing and buggy/ksurf scene there.
To further clarify: How many ribs would you tend to use? By shared secondaries, do you mean cascading or converging lines? Now run that by me again, did you say that the cascaded set-up has less drag (as one would expect)?
Regarding the 1m2 kite, I think there are a couple more reasons for decreasing aspect ratio. 1. That of reduced Reynolds numbers which small airfoils tend to work at. Efficiency will suffer if the Reynolds number/s drop beyond a certain point, at least in theory. Ideally this point would have to be identified by modelling/wind tunnel testing, but it is not a bad assumption to work with that the smaller the airfoil, the more likely there will be inefficiency. 2. Also, smaller kites don't handle high A/R very well. Concerning the nose, it is possible to leave the very tip unsewn (as long as the nose doesn't have too much radius) and not have any adverse inflation shape results. I've seen this done on PL Peels.
I basically agree with what you have said in terms of the requirements of racing kites. I guess the some of the sense of well shaped skins, D-ribs, heaps of cells and very high aspect ratios lies in the very top end of buggy performance. It takes more work to get the most out of very high performance kites. However, where pure speed matters, this is the route to go with parafoils. If you spend most of your time travelling at speeds of 0-50kmh, turning frequently, and you have to move the kite a great deal to keep powered-up, then your kite may be biased too much towards top-end performance. On the other hand, if you buggy in uncrowded spots and live for that 60+kmh experience, then you want your kite to be able to keep going - to have it "hunting" a bit below 40kmh is not a problem, it is a sign of good things to come, usually. I am sure that designers like Gene M and Emiel have very few regrets about the kites they make. I think they suit their designers' tastes. It certainly sounded like Gene M had a lot of fun with his Warp in the desert and Emiel enjoyed his Rage kites at Fano... Incidentally, both of these fellows now seem to make quad kites, where they previousy might have concentrated on dual line kites. :-)
I wonder that hybrids might not offer the best of both worlds. They are easier to make, have performance that matches or exceeds that of the very best high A/R parafoils (rapid accel. and High L/D) and handle quite well if they are set-up correctly and flown by experienced flyers/racers (I actually think in this condition they are harder to luff than HP parafoils, although they are a pain once they do go). Some even have a "secret weapon" available to experienced flyers - true depowering capability at speed which does not adversely affect L/D (My Trident is rigged especially for this.)
As far as the N-Gen goes, I think it is wonderful to fly although the skin shaping method is not really as comprehensive as the one used by Gene M and most paraglider makers. I must say that it is eclipsed in terms of performance by hybrids, IMO (something PL even says when singing the praises of the C-Quad). Still where the quad Peel was disappointing, the N-Gen is a delight (having flown both).
I am also a supporter of rectangular planforms and have made quite a few parafoils sporting them. They don't have to be radically down on L/D and the larger tip chord produces a very pleasant roll/yaw damping effect in turns. This is good for cruising or beginners, especially. I also like the ease of construction etc. I do think that, all other things being equal (airfoil, parasitic drag etc) in terms of L/D, top speed, and acceleration, sensibly tapered planforms should out-perform rectangular planform parafoils because their spanwise lift distribution IS more efficient (less induced drag). This should be the case particularly at higher A/R (perhaps above 3 for kites). I do agree that one benefit of curve tapered planforms is aesthetic! Certainly all "elliptical" parafoils are not equal - some have planforms based on sound aerodynamic theory, others conform to theory that is more aesthetic in nature. A good airfoil on a well ribbed and rigged rectangular planform foil can be more effective even in terms of outright performance than a bad airfoil on a badly rigged "elliptical", IMO. Notwithstanding this, as mentioned, performance can be more than L/D on its own. I enjoy, and design/make, kites that are both wild and mild, for different reasons, in different contexts. Horses for courses. :-)
Smooth Winds,
Paul
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If you can make it to a Euro comp it will be a great eye opener, the Germans and Danes really have it sewn up at the moment , and my opinion is that they are mad!! and I hope to completely lose my marbles soon so I can join them. I have seen Peter Lynns suspension Buggy and wonder If if its later for its April 1st launch. The North European racing buggies are superb and are supremely stable as you would expect from something weighing 40kg 2m long and 2m wide with full independant suspension. Peters buggy looks as stable as my big foot and I guess if I lowered the tyre pressures a bit I would have suspension travel.
Further clarify :
Cells. All on AR of 3.8/3.9 2m = 21 3m =21 4m = 23 5m = 27 6m = 29
Cascading secondaries? not sure what you mean by this.
What I find is that for example.
On a 3m kite with every cell bridled for the same AOA AOI .. if you also use separate secondaries one for each cell ( A bit of license here I actually use converging primaries to shared secondaries on the first 5 risers see ascii below
/ / / / / / /
| | | | | | |I hope you can follow this Im old (34) and new to this compooter stuff.
I did not find when using this set up any appreciable increase in drag but did find a big increase in performance over a kite with...
/ / / / /
| | | | | arrangementIn the First example all the primaries are the same In the second the primaries are calculated for convergence to a single secondary
I also use only 80lb dyneema line in the constuction of the bridles ( or 110lb if I envisage a few adjustments as the knots are easier to undo). With only an additional 8m or so of extra line for the bridle you can see why drag was not a factor but the flying chacteristic change was.
The application of Renolds numbers and calculations to Known hard flat surfaces be they smooth or rough I can understand . But the application to a soft continually moving and undulating surface as that of a foil skin ,which probably also has more akin to a fluid than a solid I cannot. I know you have to make assumptions to start somewhere but i think there are too many variables in a foil which would have an adverse effect on any calculation to make the result anything more than would be acheived with a good guess. Just my opinion again.
I'm more your practical engineer (mechanical HND Euro eng) than your theoretical, and didn't my teachers just love me ...Not. If I cant see it or feel it then it aint there sir ( God is just a word). and if I get hit by lightning whilst bugging next week Its my own fault for going out in a storm again anybody read my post on Rec. kites re Buzzing lines. thats me Zappy smith.
I agree with reservations as with all things you gain you loose and with very high performance engines what you gain in outright performance you loose in flexibility and where buggying is concerned I think flexibility in the engine is very important due to the unpredictable nature of the fuel we use.
In the UK at speed events With pilots using all manner of different kites and varing degrees of ability, the speeds achieved were very close to one another and if a kite is holding back its a case of bridling not section, within reason. I have in the past built kites which moved reletively slow through the air compared to others but found on a broad reach for max speed the buggy speed was the same at around 2-2.5 x wind speed. the difference was when tacking downwind where the speed of the kite through the air gave it an advantage in gybes when catching the buggy up.
Quads or two line?
Depowering... sorry girls that just is not on.
Hybrids do have a facsination for me at the moment but they have really not proved themselves as versatile as a foil. Reports of ( c- quad )luffing and not being able to lauch from any position and the storage problems etc etc make them a little less attractive than I would like.
Comparing the n-gen to??
Mine too but I support the theory that a well constracted "blocky" will perform as well as a well constucted "Curvey" Overall. Aesthetics are for people watching the kite (sod them) I'm to busy looking at where I'm going. I just use a simple block grapic 20 black 20 grey 60 colour which differentiates them from the crowd .
Yup. my kites are designed to suit me . the fact that they suit others as well means I can finance my hobby and sport and give said others access to cheap high performances slightly used prototypes. although at the moment one prototype is so popular its in small scale production to meet demand.
Trident ...? used to have a Triton that was a hybrid too and that worked well.
I am sure I down loaded a photo of your kite from Genes page May I trouble you for the benefits over the C-Quad as Peters route via section through sail cut ala boat sailmaking made more sense to me than through the route of "fabric section battens" what thickness did you use?my sailmaking books offer a max ratio of 12:1 for ultimate performance, all the Hybrids I have seen except the C-quad, look to use significantly more than this. My thoughts so far on hybrids would go toward a 4% thichness profile with a skin shaped for billow up to the 8-10 % of chord but the lack of any real structure to maintain the TE concerns me. Sticks in kites Just "ain't my bag Man". YET!!
Andy
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Thanks for the input on my Ajax with the slowing down at 30 mph buggy speed problem.
The wind at that time was about 18 mph. The sail does have a lot of pull at that wind speed and yes I was drifting sideways somewhat. I hope that I have not reached the max. speed of the Ajax. The profile thickness is somewhere around 17%, so it is quite a thin foil. The main modification that has been made to it consist of closing the leading edge with the exception of three openings on each side that span 2 cells each. I would of thought that this would make the foil fly faster since there is less drag at the leading edge compaired to the same design with openings along the entire length of the leading edge.
As far as tunning the sail, I did pull the back 2 primaries (there are 3 primaries on each rib) in a little. I did this before the trip to Emirage do to the fact that the sail was overflying itself at the top of the wind window while I tested it without actually buggying. Perhaps now I need to back off a little on this. Do I simply change the AOA or would adjustments otherwise to the 3 primaries that attach to ribs be better, for instance shortening the middle one a little more than the front one to actually alter the shape of the sale into a more curved bottom airfoil, be better?????
Right now the sail is down for repair. The forward most cross vent holes on some of the ribs are splitting out. I am not sure what has caused this. The hole are somewhat big and probably too close to the leading edge. The ribs are made of Icarex polycarbonate, the rest of the sail is Icarex polyester. My next sail will have smaller cross vent holes located further back on the ribs and probably have mesh sewn over them for reinforcement!
Other buggiers were complaning of the same condition on that day. We just chalked it up to goofy winds. The others were flying a Skytiger 26 and a Q 2000 3 meter. I seemed to be able to acellerate ahead of them but then be forced to slow down to catch up to sail, or, if the wind was up I would get pulled sideways a lot. Kinda sound like the foil is trimmed too (fat) dosen't it.
If only El Mirage wasn't 1500 miles away and I more time to get the sail repaired.
)) Thanks again for all your repies.Vince
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No 17% is a medium thickness depending...... as per the Elliot ekko I suspect
>I would of thought that this >would make the foil fly faster since there is less drag at the leading edge >compaired to the same design with openings along the entire length of the >leading edge.
NO
When the modification to close the leading edge was made did it include reshaping the nose. as some kites with open fronts Sands Quads for one fly worse if you close them or mesh them over. If the front is very blunt rebridling won't help build a better one
Profile thickness does not solely determine the thickness of the kite the number of cells and the aspect ratio play a big role a good 3m sail with 17% needs an AR of 3.5 to 4.0 and 21 or so cells.
Usually only caused by hitting the deck and as you have closed off most of the area where the air used to escape in a LE thump I am not at all surprised.
the holes are only there to equalise pressure not for air flow so they can be quite small on a 3m I use 32mm 2 off positioned between the 3 bridle points Hold it... IN your case with the closed front you will need holes large enough for air flow to inflate the darn thing so you probably want big oles with mesh over.
Make the ribs out of ripstop Chikara is best it will be far more durable and will not effect the performance
Sew mesh over and you may as well save time and just make them smaller still as you are only reducing area a better bet if you really want to make them bomb proof is to use bias binding around the hole cut some anular rings and zig zag them on
-Andy
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G'day,
Long axel and wheel base buggies, big kites and ballast? Or is there more to it? ;-)
Yes, but at least one is unlikely to have to mortgage one's house or whatever to enjoy whatever there is to enjoy about suspension....
Running two or more lines into one. This is a paragliding term.
Interesting. What do you mean by "increase in performance"? Do you include handling in you understanding of performance?
I agree that ram air wings are very indeterminate structures when it comes to numerical (or even most forms of) analysis and prediction. I can't see why Re numbers don't apply here, however. Any object with a "largely" stable form, around which there is airflow, is able to be given an Re range/value, as far as I understand it (Not that I am an Aeronautical Engineer - I can barely spell it ;-)). I guess the main problem is that distortion of ram air wings means that the Re value of the wing at different speeds (distortion due to increased and decreased wing loading) will perhaps rarely relate to the idealised airfoil (which is never what is measured at the ribs anyway). This makes it hard to make any precise use of the figures one ends up with. Nonetheless, we can still try to work out in a broad sense what sort of airfoils we should be using in terms of the "ball park" Re numbers we might arrive at. Having said this I've always been too lazy and ignorant to try to do this.
The N-Gen is a great kite! I've a friend who kitesurfs with it because he finds it more stable than the C-Quad whilst at least offering 80% of the performance. It certainly deserves to be infinitely more popular than the ill-fated quad peel. Incidentally, the N-Gen has a simplified version of skin shaping compared to the individual cell panel technique. I personally think that it benefits even from this perhaps less precise form of skin shaping, although comparison is not easy to make.
By "buggying", do you mean "buggy racing"? A kite that needs to be moved around a lot generally is one that produces its best performance at higher speeds. These kites (if high L/D and low high speed drag Co are also present) are often best for all-out speed. However, if they are flown by experienced buggiers they can also give very good all-round performance. At least this is the case with hybrids where I find that I can usually out-accelerate "stump-pullers" (and not be troubled by luffing). I don't think that I am particularly good at buggying but have spent a LOT of hours flying and designing and building hybrids. I guess ultimately a lot of this is just personal opinion and speculation that will never be adequately worked through on the list.
Well, you were right about this being a long text. I guess, given the length (and that others might not be following the discussion as avidly), I'll have to reply to the rest privately later.
Smooth Winds,
Paul.
Kite Surf Board
I need some info on choosing a board and other gear to kite ski with. I'm just getting started. I have a SkyTiger Hi-60. And we'll be skiing on fresh water lakes not ocean (if that even matters). Any info is appreciated.
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You might want to subscribe to the kitesurf mailing list at egroups. go to this site: http://www.egroups.c...esurf/info.html . From there you can subscribe to the group or just look at the old messages.
My favorite site on the subject is Hung Vu's site: http://tor-pw1.netco...kitesurfing.htm
Good luck!
Mark Frasier
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I am a windsurfer who plans on taking up kitesurfing. Could I start with a big kite, practice on land and then advance to water without buying a small kite to train on? Kites seem overpriced compared to windsurfing sails and I don't want to buy 2 kites if I don't need to. I will be windsurfing in high winds so I don't really want 2 kites.
What are your opinions on an easy fun kite for kitesurfing.
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The price of an introductory kite, compared with the kite you will be using for kitesurfing, will be very small. $50 can get you a good beginner kite with lines.
I don't recommend starting off with a kitesurfing kite, but it could be done if you learned to fly it in low winds. Which I would recommend anyway.
-- Steve Bateman
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If cost is a factor, check out the CQuads. They're great performers and half the price of other kites with similar power. They are easy to water launch if you can stand on the bottom, but not if you are in deep. The easiest might be the Wipika, but it's expensive. The Wipika would allow you to use 2 lines instead of four, and would be better for flying with a bar (instead of separate handles). Seems like most windsurfers go with the bar because it's more like a boom. Kite buggiers like handles better because you can squeeze more performance and control out of the kite with them.
I have a CQuad 2.2 that I use for buggy. I used it once for kitesailing on a high wind day. You could pick one of these up for $144 (new without lines or handles) and it would be good to learn on. You might even use it on the water on those 25 mph days (though you'll probably want to windsurf on those days!)
Mark Frasier
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I have a slightly different approach to your questions...
Where are you located? Where we play makes a difference with equipment suggestions.
The skills one acquires on land are hardly useful when kite surfing... other than a knowledge of basic kite skills. Moving that anchor point just changes so much of the dynamics.
So... if there are other kite surfers around, and it is so new that that could be problematic, hang with them and learn by watching and asking questions and emulating what others make work.
As far as costs... relax, and realize that the costs will be easier to understand after the value becomes apparent. Consider the costs of a mast, boom and sail for a windsurfer. High performance gear... And the lifespan... compared to kite gear... not so out of line... And our good stuff is indeed state-of-the-art... Great values beat low prices. And better gear is usually more fun because it performs better.
So, get back to me with some specifics on location and access to other players... and I will offer some more specific advise.
aoxo coreykite@aol.com
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You can, but just be careful... best idea (other than starting with a small kite) would be to wait for a light breeze day, maybe 5-7 mph or so, and not gusty, just enough to fly the kite. You should also try flying without hooking in to your harness to start, 'til you get ussed to the kite. Fly in a spot where you can let go of the kite without hurting anyone or losing the kite.
If cost is a factor, check out the CQuads. They're great performers and half the price of other kites with similar power. They are easy to water launch if you can stand on the bottom, but not if you are in deep. The easiest might be the Wipika, but it's expensive. The Wipika would allow you to use 2 lines instead of four, and would be better for flying with a bar (instead of separate handles). Seems like most windsurfers go with the bar because it's more like a boom. Kite buggiers like handles better because you can squeeze more performance and control out of the kite with them.
I have a CQuad 2.2 that I use for buggy. I used it once for kitesailing on a high wind day. You could pick one of these up for $144 (new without lines or handles) and it would be good to learn on. You might even use it on the water on those 25 mph days (though you'll probably want to windsurf on those days!)
Mark Frasier
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My usual approach takes Corey's a step further. That is, we like to "mentor" our new traction kiters...take them out, teach the basics on dry land with a demo kite....or a few if choice of styles is an issue....then again with their own new kite to show setup, line length, adjustment etc. Then after they have a basic familiarity we again like to go out when they are getting to the water so that they are not alone. It is easier to start with beach launches with an assistant who knows. This is also an excuse to get out and play!
I'm sure most keen traction kiters who are also traction kite retailers take a similar approach so find your local supplier and ask em for help.
Gary
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I'm a windsurfer who's recently got into traction kites, and I can't wait to give kite surfing a go. I own a 4.2m C-quad and this is what I've been learning on and its been great fun. I wasn't too sure myself what to start on and I spoke to a few friends that are involved in the sport who brought up some valied points.
*1 Having windsurfed I have an understanding of how wind works which takes that newbie title away. 2 If I'm going to kite surf I should get something I can use, as money was a problem for me as well! 3 The kite can take quite a pounding before breaking, but because of *1 I should get the hang of flying quickly and hopefully the kite wont be broken by then, and it hasn't. 4 If you have the mentallity to windsurf at high speeds you'll love traction kites!
I feel that a 4.2m is great to learn with, you can zero wind it which builds confidence with launches and landings and teachies some basic dynamics about how a kite flys. Remember those days when you first started windsurfing big board small sail and you thought this was it. Well you will have times when the wind will teach you some respect for it, and hopefully your friends wont laugh too much. The 4.2m will give you a great starting point that can be use later unlike those 4.5m sails used for windsurfing. SO....
have fun ride the wind :-O
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yes you can - start in light winds with your kite on land - advance to water (without a board just body dragging) with stronger winds and then get on the board
Kites seem overpriced compared to windsurfing sails
not really. a kite can be as cheap as 300 USD including lines and bar (a sail will need a mast boom - mast foot etc.)
there are many options of kites each with their particular advantages and disadvantages - kites are very different from each other in design (unlike sails which are much closer together) - and the design choice is the major difference. (not the manufacturer like in sails)
there are inflatatable strut kites - like Wipika and Naish - tend to be pricey but relaunch from the water very well
there are soft foil kites (like a parawing) - most notably the Concept air and FONE are those adapted for water use - these relaunch ok but have great power speed and upwind ability
there are framed kites (kites with rigid carbon spars) - liek the banshee Kiteski system - pricey but relaunches very well and has good power and upwind
and there are hybrid kites that are a cross between the framed kites and the parafoil kites - the cquad is the most noted - these have great power great upwind but limited relaunchability - but they are the cheapest !
to visit all these sites go to www.newhoo.com/sports/kitesailing and then click on equipment
Mountain Board
Anyone have any experience with kite mountain boarding? or have any comments/suggestions? I'm thinking about buying a moutain board or a kite surf board. (artwookie) Brad
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Check out www.grassboard.com. They carry something called grassboards. These might be more like surfing on grass instead of a mountain board since you can lean into the turns. Cost wise, they are a lot cheaper than a mountain board. Unfortunately, you can't buy them in the US. I had to order mine from Germany and it cost more for shipping than the board itself...
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Brad,
Kiteboarding with an all-terrain board (or the company-specific mountainboard from MBS) is incredible. You won't be sorry. For Kite traction with an all-terrain board, also check out the two "terraboard links" and www.landsailer.com (the one from orca designs) too--let me know if you can't track them down and I'll dig them up. (they're cheaper, lighter, and probably better suited for powerkiting than the MBS boards)
For kite traction on grass and sand, make sure you get a board with at least 9-inch diameter wheels (preferably 10-12 inch wheels). Don't expect to roll as smoothly in soft sand as you would in a buggy, however. Make sure both the trucks and the wheelbase are wide for stability at speed. At 5'7" (165 lbs) my board is 137 cm, and I've been using it for about three years--the traction kite brands come and go, but the mountainboard will stay once you develop your own riding style with the kite. Don't get me wrong, I use c-quads and quadrifoil brand kites with a buggy and wakeboard--though in my opinion, neither competes with the range, sensation, speed, and style (read: the carve) of a decently made all-terrain board (As a snowboard cross-trainer, I am definitely biased, however. Replace the mountainboard with a snowboard in the winter.). Check out my site, which is heavily under construction.
http://homestead.dej...ffyan/play.html
I'll have the complete kiteboarding links available soon.
Ryan
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I believe Jeff Howard is working with the guys at Terra board to come up with board specifically for Kite power. They want to make one that is lighter and more manuverable. I played on Jeffs Mountain board and Terra board and the Terra board was much better. You could adjust the turning on it. I'm sure Jeff would be happy to answer any questions on the land boards and the kitesurf boards. He is the one helping to develope Quadrifoils kite boards. You can contact him at www.kitebuggy.com He is out of country at the moment so give him some time to reply. Good luck..
Hunter
Aquatic Kites
Well...I have been following this newsgroup for a while and know where the comments will go if I say I am looking for plans for a...."water traction kite"....for kitesurfing so I won't. Let me say I am one of those people (probably not alone) whom have a know-how of sewing (basic) and in a past life (years ago) shaped some surfboards but do not have the kind of funds laying around to purchase a kite that costs $500-$1000 or so. But I do have the utmost desire to learn to kitesurf. and for that reason will have to figure out how to make a kite I can use on the water and for that matter, I need the help of the locals and experts in this DIY area of talent. Anyhow, where does one find books that can help teach the basics (and advanced) skills to build traction kites specifically for water use? I understand I need to learn the sewing basics of kite building including types of seams and how that is all put together. Are there good books that will help with these basics but will go into the more advanced topics? I hope we can let this thread run a while and get past the copyright comments about posting plans and stick with getting help for those people whom want to learn to make there own aquatic traction kites for personal use... Thanks all so far for everything. I have already filled a binder with information on learning and skills for kitesurfing plus equipment now I just have to get a rig set up!!!!
Sincerely...Jim
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The best book I currently know of is "Stunt Kites II." It has information on sewing kites, some technical information, and plans for a good parafoil kite - the Sputnik 4. This kite is not water launchable, but the information is invaluable.
Don't worry about your sewing ability. The skills required to build a traction kite are very basic. There seems to be a mental hurdle to jump regarding sewing, but it's really terribly easy, and traction kites are very tolerant of mistakes/sloppyness.
Probably the best route to go for water relaunchability would be a "hybrid" or single-skin kite. Check out Eugene Vissers page, he has some info and material from Paul Watsons work. Also look for the "Phaze," another single skin design (I forgot who from
). Sorry I don't have URL's, but my server is still down...should be back up next week sometime. Start on Peter's page...that should get you there.Enjoy! Gene Matocha incognito
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Must be in the gene.....Nah.
The Phaze infos are at http://www.geocities...line/Ridge/2349
Simon
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Same topic... different Gene!
The hybrid page Gene writes about is under the Kitecraft link on the page in my sig below.
Ciao,
http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/konz
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Other that what Gene wrote (good stuff), you might look on the web for foils that have one-way values. I know there is at least one dual/quad line foil on the market that has them, specifically for launching on water. But it's not 100% relaunchable.
I'm just getting into kitesurfing and am not planning on using a water launchable kite. It can be done, you just need lots of time with the kite (and *the* kite you will be using). Practice in a wide range of winds.
-- Steve Bateman
Wipika
Hi all,
Why don't I read anything about the Wipika? I want to go kitesurfing (see my other post about boards). So can anyone tell me about the advantages and disadvantages of these two kites.
Thnx Milo
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Hoi.,
I think i it's because a C-Quad is cheaper, so a lot of own a C-Quad and can talk about it. I am not really a expert (i don't even kitesurf yet) but i think it's like this
advantages C-Quad -Great flight performers (upwind) -Cheap disadvantages -Not water relaunchble -Packing is terrible
advantages Wipika -Water relaunchble disadvantages -Less flight performers -Almost four time more exspecif then a C-Quad
Just how think about.
Doei Diego
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Hi Milo
I have a C-quad it is not a very good kite to kitesurf with. Every time you lose control if you try somthing and it fals in the water it is almost not possible to make it launch again. I've tried so I now. It is a cheap but not a safe kite, this becuase you will trey evrything to keep it out of the water. And then it can go very wrong. I once flew back on the land and pult over a road. My tones are stil damaged.
My advise is buy a Wipika. I going to. It is a lot safer with this kite.
greets
Richard
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May I suggest Richard that understanding the power and the limitations of whatever traction kite you have is paramount to safety. Putting your kite on the road is about control and knowing when you are likely to be overpowered - relates to the flier being aware of his kite's capabilities. It'll happen with a Wipika or a Speedwing if you are not on top of what it may or may not do for you.
Yes I sel the C-Quad but I would rather see a flier fully understand the kite he has got before he ditches it in favour of another that may "solve the problem for him" . Otherwise it can become an expensive merrygoround chasing the elusive "make it easy" answer.
Gary
Buggy Basics
I don't buggy and have no plans as of now to start, but I have a question that has been bugging (sorry) me. If I were to start buggying at point a and decided to stop sometime later at point b, how do I get the buggy back to point a? I know I can tack into the wind in a sailboat, but I don't see how it is possible in a buggy that is being pulled by kites.
Thanks
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There is but one way Grasshopper, "magic wind".
thanks to the Cobey! Praise the Jam!
total AoxomoxoA brought to you by. . . . . . dean jordan
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Hi David,
An alternative to using "magic wind" in buggying is by using the kite's pull. Most of the time, you buggy at very roughly 90 degrees to the wind's heading. It's the same idea as a sailboat doing a broad reach.
So- starting at point A (in the North) with the wind blowing approximately from the West, you head South to point B, with the kite on your left. Achieving point B, you turn the kite 180 degrees, so its front is facing North. Slightly after you've started the kite's turn, you turn the buggy North. The kite will now be on your right, unless you run into some "magic wind". :-)
To further cloud this explanation here's some crap ascii art:
Wind direction
|
V
South Point B North Point A
=
<--------------path of buggy---- =+-<| <-- odd-looking buggy
|| =
||
|| lines
||
_||__
/_____| very unlikely-looking kite
return trip wind direction
|
|
V
South Point B North Point A
=
---path of buggy-------->|>-+= ---------->
= ||
||
||
_||_
|_____This only scratches the surface of buggy manoeuvres, there are a number of buggy sites that explain it far better than this. There is also a kite buggy mailing list on http://www.onelist.com
HTH!
Steve
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This won't get you into the top 1% of the Kite Buggy People Pyramid or get your expenses paid to Nude Kite Beach Festival, Knoxville, Iowa, but you could always just have fun by haing Mom drop you off with kites, buggies and friends, if you have any, at point "a" and then have Mom pick you up at point "b" which, depending on the windspeed and size of kites and how many times you stop to pee, could be a few miles DOWNWIND!
Just like the whitewater rafters do!
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David, David, David!!! You don't buggy, and have no plans to start???? Ah, I would believe you, but you are asking the kind of questions that lead to a very, very happy addiction!
Sailing from point A to point B, stopping, and then returning, is just one portion of the fun of buggying, IMHO. Where you run into a real challenge is when Point B, from which you must return, is directly down-wind. Then, you must tack, back and forth, making slight upwind progress with each run, to return to Point A. Sometimes, you make no upwind progress in one direction, but good upwind progress in the other, so that your tacking takes on a pattern such as this:
/ | / | / --> back to Point A
Ideally, your tacks would look like this:
/ / / --> back to Point A
The point (sorry) being, you're making upwind progress with every second run, and eventually reach your destination. See?
The most important point of all, however, is YOU'RE BUGGYING!!! (and you, David, are buggying too, but only mentally... for now!)
It'll getcha.... you know it's gonna getcha... surrender!
Nothing is foolproof, to a sufficiently talented fool!
Technique
BUGGY technique questions!
I am fairly new to power kites and buggying. I’ve been at it for less than four months now. I’m having a blast! One bad thing about this buggy addiction is that I’ve basically ignoring all my other stunt kites. Oh well;).
My question is… What technique is the quickest way to round a marker? Let’s say your having a pursuit type race with two markers with a short but fast reach perfectly perpendicular to the wind. What do you do with your kite and what do you do with your buggy to round the markers the fastest way possible? What works the best for you? This could be a survey also.
At my local kite field, (Shoreline, Mountain View, CA, USA) I practice with some cones as markers and see how fast I can make my turns. I don’t really have anyone to race with to compare the speed of different ways to round the markers. I just go by feel to judge the speed. It’s not a very accurate.
Here are some techniques I’ve tried. I’ll split them up with what I do with the buggy and what I do with the kite. I’ve tried all combinations and variations but I’m not quite sure which is the fastest.
BUGGY- Assume your buggying a short fast reach, at top speed (relative to wind speed of course). #1 Slow cornering/ Tight turn- As I approach the marker, I do a power slide (turn into the wind), scrub off a lot of speed, and round the marker as tight as I can. I lose a bit of speed but I don’t lose too much distance going back upwind to the next marker. #2 Fast corner/ Big turn- As I approach the marker a bit more upwind, I do a broad slide (turn into the kite), scrub off less speed, and apex the marker as close as I can but with a larger arc. I don’t lose as much speed but I end up more down wind but need to go more up wind in the next reach.
KITE-There is the usual turns: Down-Turns, Up-Turns, Flat-Turns,… I’m more concerned with the timing and position of the kite to power you through the turns. #1 Early Turn- Anticipating the next turn, I turn your kite before the buggy reaches the marker. As the kite goes the other way, it catapults very fast around the corner but kite will be very far ahead and I must be quick to power up the kite before it luffs. Lots of power during the turn. Not much after. Pumping the kite after the turn helps me get going again. #2 Late Turn- The kite is turned after you scrub off speed ether with a power slide or broad slide. When the buggy points the other way the kite will be slightly behind me. There will be a slight delay in power but as the kite flies back in front of you the power will come hard and fast. #3 Even Turn- The kite and buggy is turned at about the same time and rate. The kite position stays pretty close to the middle of your window throughout the turn. The power stays even and very smooth but if you let the lines go too slack as you go down wind the kite will luff.
Are there other ways to make a turn?
Thanks in advance, Alex
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Howdy... Most all of the techniques you listed in your question are the correct answers.. Unlike many posts we get to field here... You have obviously spent some little time figuring stuff out.
The biggest difference you will find when racing is that while all these techniques work, the one you use will largely depend on the other racers around you... You can't downturn if someone is under you... you can't round the mark closely if there is a large cluster of other buggyers jockeying for position at the mark. Same with starts... I watch Jeff Howard, hangin' back... geting some speed up just before the start... scooting in just beside the inside mark... already at speed, slinging himself by most of the others who are just starting to roll... He wins many races right there.
Or so Cobey Bensen once told me...
aoxo coreykite@aol.com
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yes he has.... but I wonder sometimes about going round the marker upwind instead reach past it on the downwind side (close as you can) turn upwind to bleed speed and gain upwind ground turn sharp (you're now upwind of the marker, and past it) reach back past the marker on the upwind side
(I find I can accelerate awesomely out of a upwind-to-reach turn, great fun, but watch that kite, buggy-exit it also easy)
this may well confuse a few of the blokes behind you and some race rules state marker rounding directions I know (and why not prescribe upwind roundings? esp for advanced class racing)
but its just an idea in the end
>The biggest difference you will find when racing is that while all >these techniques work, the one you use will largely depend on the >other racers around you... You can't downturn if someone is under
in fact, you'll invent some totally new ways just because there's a bunch fighting at the marker (-:
Foil Design
Has any of you fellow foil designers out there had any experience in building with a reverse reflex profile.
I am currently working on a development of 4 line foils with this type of profile. I note that the trailing edge flaps on most 4 line foils give an element of this but I have not seen it as part of the profile.
Personally after some consideration I can see little advantage in closing the front of foils as the inflation pressure will only ever be as good as the vent position on the open cells and because of the thousands of sewing holes in them a valve is going to about as much use on a cell as it would be on a tea bag. If any one can see any advantages please let me know.
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G'day Andy,
Do you mean concave undersurface aerofoils? I've seen varieties of these used on paragliders during the years - quite successfully because we are, afterall, working on low speed, low Rn. aircraft and these kinds of foils (like a lot of "thermal" R.C. glider and vintage sailplane airfoils (Gottingen (SP?) etc) work well at low speeds. They usually have quite a bit of camber and place the max. cam. point up towards the nose (where it should be on any stable parafoil). It will be interesting to hear how you go, because one of my main interests in parafoil design is in airfoil development. I haven't tried concave undersurfaces because of a few personal pseudo-theories concerning inflational behaviour, and the fact that small brake deflections usually give the same effect (albeit, with some wrinkes). I don't think that this is enough reason to not have a go, however. At any rate, I think, for example, it could be said that the most significant advances in recent paraglider design have come through aerofoil development. This will become more important for traction kites too. Certainly, in the past, many traction parafoils were obviously matched with inappropriate aerofoils and offered quite limited performance because of this. I think the Quad Peel was a good example of this (IMHO). It had a foil that really only started to "work" with quite a bit of airspeed, however the kite was not optimised enough (because of manufacturing/marketing reasons) in other areas to allow this speed to be readily used or easily attained....On the other hand, the N'Gen suits its aerofoil to a tee! :-)
One (non-marine) advantage is that luff collapsing is somewhat retarded on highly efficient parafoils which always want to "overfly" (which is always a byproduct of significant efficiency). I am thinking about eventually making one to see whether they have anything substantial to offer (for the performance junkie, that is). The other advantage is that yoYep, I can see the taped idea working quite well, provided it does actually form and airtight and waterproof seal. However, that does not answer the question of what happens when you dunk it in the drink.
If you put a valved foil into the sea and the foil starts filling up with water, not only are you going to have a bugger of a time getting the water out (especially since you have made the thing as airtight/watertight as possible), but you also have the problem of getting the kite back to land.
If it is harder to get the water out on land, it is going to be a lot harder to get the water out while you are out at sea. I am sure that it is not a whole lot of fun dragging a 5-10m foil filled with water back to land...
I have still to be convinced that a decent foil can be made water-relaunchable...
Daveu will get a lot of repair practice when you let people who crash kites nose first fly them....;-)
Paul Watson
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Indeed. My new valved foil will _only_ be lent to people who know WTF they're doing. I don't like resewing esploded kites.
As for the teabag thing, I thought of that. I'm thinking of taping over all the seams - i.e. sealing as many of the holes as possible. There's a weight disadvantage, of course, but I figure that's irrelevant compared to the mass of the air inside once the thing's flying.
Thoughts, anyone?
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Yep, I can see the taped idea working quite well, provided it does actually form and airtight and waterproof seal. However, that does not answer the question of what happens when you dunk it in the drink.
If you put a valved foil into the sea and the foil starts filling up with water, not only are you going to have a bugger of a time getting the water out (especially since you have made the thing as airtight/watertight as possible), but you also have the problem of getting the kite back to land.
If it is harder to get the water out on land, it is going to be a lot harder to get the water out while you are out at sea. I am sure that it is not a whole lot of fun dragging a 5-10m foil filled with water back to land...
I have still to be convinced that a decent foil can be made water-relaunchable...
Dave
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Yeah. I figure the weight disadvantage should be outweighed by the improvements in floatability. It's only really relevant at launch time, although if we're talking about launching from water, with partially wet kites, any weight advantage has to be useful... And as for dunking, see my later comments.
I figure that you could possibly get around some of this by having a trailing edge that can be opened. Either using velcro on a rolled seam, or a zip, or something else. I haven't really thought through this one yet, but It should be possible to have "openable" sections on a kite to let the water out when you want to. I'll have to give this some more thought. It might even be possible to have this operated remotely - i.e. get the kite semi-launched, open the 'seacocks' and have it take off. Can't see how to do that yet, though.
Oh, yes. even dragging a 1.5m foil out fo the sea (from the beach) is a pain in the arse. Sideways is the only way to go..... Those things make great sea anchors. Probably even better than buggered 21" monitors.
Actually, the best way of making foils relaunchable is stopping them from crashing in the first place, or at least stopping them filling with water. Valves go some way towards this by (at least partially) stopping the cells being flooded and letting the kite float on the surface. Once it starts to sink, though, you're buggered. the other thing I'm trying on my new foil is having the tip cells closed, thus stopping the kite "scooping" water if it touches a tip in, which is how I've usually managed to flood kites previously. The next model will have the tip cells entirely fed air from the other end of the kite which should mean that even if the inboard cells get inundated, that tip will still be inflated. Remains to be seen how well it works, though. The valving should stop much water getting in if it fully crashes on the water, although I suspect a headlong crash into the sea with a sealed, valved foil might lead to more problems than just emptying the water out. More a question of emptying the pieces out of the water...
Just some random thoughts.
Simon
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Yes, a bit of confusion relating to Trailing Edge TE and tips. Thinner tips as on a tapered or elliptical foil may help with preventing banana on a high aspect ratio design. What I actually think happens is that the banana is still there but its not focused on as the kite is cuved anyway.
The reason for a foil exhibiting banana is more to do with a lack of volume at the trailing edge compared to the centre than tip drag bending the kite back. Gene M. did a nice piece on his page about this but it has gone, and it seems for the time being so has Gene.
I have also found that the thinner= faster is not quiet true, and that thinner = accellerates faster is more correct. Tests and developments I have done show that a well designed 18% profile foil can be as fast or faster than a well designed 15% foil. What shows up is the gust sensitivity of the 15% over the 18%. The 15% will accellerate in an sometimes uncontrollable manner developing a sudden explosive pull for a fraction of a second, where the18% will ride the gust producing more useable power for a longer period.
A quick note here regarding profile percentages I have found that each size of kite from 1 to 10 metres requires a different thickness 20% at 1m to 15% at 10m with a degree each way depending on the characteristics you want to enhance in the kite. Trouble is there are so many variables a foil thickness is meaningless without an aspect ration and a number of cells associated with it. the above is all based on an AR of around 4:1 and a cell spacing approx. equal to the max cell height. There is abit of inverse logic here as really a thinner section needs less cells and actually works better with less cells as the cell volume helps structural rigidity.
This is the problem of using aircraft or parafoil sections for kites they are designed foir non-related purposes and lack in too many areas to provide really good performance. An example, sorry to Emeil and Simon here but the MH92 does not have the right characteristics to make a really good foil.
I suppose I should explain my thinking instead or leaving it. Oh. this all relates to quad lined foils which are more powerful and user freindly than Two liners.
The MH92 is designed for a paraglider and as such a life is hanging in the balance. To keep this life safe the section is designed to be inherently stable so it incorporates a degree of reflex to the back of the foil. kite foils fly better with reverse reflex so strike one. strike two is the fact that the foil is designed to be made into a canopy about 25-30 m2 which means the section will be very big for its size giving low sensitivity to gusts a slow speed and good stability. it may make a decent 12m 2 liner though. Strike three is that the inlet is designed for an almost fixed angle of attack due to the nature of the craft its designed for which can give problems with inflation and that at the speeds associated with foils 40-60 mph its structure can be compromised without reinforcement.The speed ratings of parafoils are about 12-25mph air speed I think.
The same can be said of hundreds of other profiles and its only by trial that the best sections will be developed. As previosly said a section for a 2.5 AR 3m foil may work fine, but put it in a 4 AR 7m kite and it could be a dog or a gem.
Keep building and flying
Andy Smith
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Indeed. Even with my distinctly suboptimal bridling, the blue spot kite with mh92 profile is fast, for such a big kite. And as it powers up, it starts to _really_ pull. Gust sensitivity is another thing - it really hammers in gusts and I'm finding myself being pulled around quite a lot when I didn't expect to be - I was out today, not really testing, just playing, in slightly more than zero wind and it surprised me more than once when the wind gusted up to about 10mph. Heh.
And emiel, you're right. When it starts to power up, it just keeps on pulling and pulling until I chicken out. I like this kite already.
There probably are better profiles for kiting (than the MH series), but I'm not a profile designer myself, so I have to use what's there. Frankly, I'm not really up to doing the analysis stuff on foil shapes, so I've tended to use foil shapes other people have successfully used for similar purposes - I grabbed the MH after reading about the "Dominator" and now find that the "Rage" uses the same profile. I've read as much as I can, but fluid dynamics makes my head hurt. I also feel that you can do more with bridling than you can with foil shapes - witness Andrew Beattie's bridling experiences as reported in his "Chevron" stuff. I've certainly made the blue spot an unflyable pig by adding a centimeter here and there at times. I need more bridling work, still. Will this ever be finished?
I have a feeling the stabilizing effect of the MH92's reflex might not be such a bad thing in quadline kites anyway, meaning that the trailing section has less of a tendency to flap around if you leave the brake lines in "fully slack" mode for max speed - some of my other kites _require_ at least a little brake pressure at all times or they lose speed / power. Just a thought.
Anyway, not really related, but sort of....
Problems I'm having with the Blue Spot at the moment relate mainly to inlet size and valving, which seem to be conspiring to make inflation a problem - getting the thing to inflate properly and fast requires the sort of wind that makes a kite of this size a little on the uncontrollable side, pull-wise. Either that or lurch the thing into the air and do a load of undignified "pumping" until it fills. In adequate wind for easy inflation, I'm doing lots of flying at the edge of the window, with occasional passes through the power just for laffs.
I may be going to Blackheath tomorrow to do some more testing and tweaking - Parliament Hill is easier to get to, but too damn crowded, and there's no cafes near Hackney that serve decent coffee. So if anyone sees me (big white kite, and possibly a little black one) come and say hi.
- Craig Rodgerson
-
The dog days of summer have seen the cessation of the previous month's [June... (c8] flame wars. We do enjoy the positive contributions that so many make. Keep up the good work!
Once again I'm indebted to the faithful BORK staff:
- Craig Rodgerson
- Peter C. Hugger Editor
This page is a summary of postings on the rec.kites Usenet news group that our editors believe to be interesting and useful. Opinions expressed in these postings are not those of KiteLife Magazine or its staff.
Misc Contents
- Where are the Competitors
- Webmasters and IRC
- Limerick Kiting
- Novice Intermediate or Expert
- Arch Project 99
- Rules for Rokkaku Fights
- We thought New York was tough
Where are the Competitors
Is it my imagination? Or has the number of competitors dropped off in the past few years??? I was just on the AKA web site looking at the competition results that were posted since 1996. I was expecting to see the numbers of competitors to rise steadily through the years. But I saw decreasing numbers instead... How could this be? I thought that sport kiting was on the up and up. I saw some well known names on the list that are now major influences on the sport kite industry. But not all of names are kitemakers or kite store owners. It couldn't be that they all "grew up". Or could it? Call me a kid or whatever! But, I don't want to grow up!!! So, I guess this is an invitation to all of those "old-school" kite flyers to start competing again. Dust off those old Team Hawaiian kites, get some new lines and start flying again and show us young whipper snappers a thing or two.
Take a friend kite flying. Bob and Danielle Fermin
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I think if you look at the buggy pages you will see a lot of old competitors names showing up. Once you get to the top what else is there? The buggy thang just keeps growing.
Collette
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Hi folks.
Just my opinion on that.
I give you two options:
OPTION 1:
You practice team flying on every tuesday evening and thursday evening after a day at work. You practice every sunday afternoon. The month before a competition add to that every sathurday afternoon. Add to that individual practice. Add to that the stress of performing really well to get decent scores. Add to that the hours spent to build a choreography for a nice ballet. Add to that numerous sticks practice to hone all manoeuvers to near perfection. You litterally hide in a field to be able to practice seriously. You are no more available to show other peoples what team flying can be. You do not take part in many small local kite festivals.
Then you travel nine hours to get to a competition. You stay on the stage for a five minutes (approx.) precision routine on Sathurday and five minutes for a ballet on Sunday. In your free time before each event you practice a lot, shielding yourself from the other stuff going around like single lines display or other demonstrations.
Then you travel back nine hours to get back home.
OPTION 2:
You practice occasionnaly to keep the team to a decent level of flying. You try different new moves. You try different kites, stacks, etc. You go to every kiteflyers gatherings around. You stop flying often to chat with spectators or other kite flyers. You try other's kites and have others try yours. You build and fly single liners. You go to nearly all the kite festivals around. This gives you many days of relaxed practice and exposure to a lot of peoples.
You travel from half an hour up to 5 hours to a festival. You fly on stage for 5 to 20 minutes non stop, entertaining a crowd. You do that many time a day. In between these official demonstrations, team members put up individual shows (quads, multiple kites, pair, whatever) on an informal way. You put up single liners. You chat with everyone around. You are relaxed. You make a lot of new friends. You have a lot of fun.
CONCLUSION:
Guess what option our team choose. That's one less team in the competition arena but one more having a lot more visibility and helping, I think, to promote our hobby.
Note that the opinions expressed in this post are mine and do not necessarily reflect exactly other team members opinions.
Also, this post is not aimed at discouraging peoples from competing. On the contrary, I think we need competition to advance tha state of art in our hobby. Hey, I might someday compete in some single line kites making competition, who knows. I just wanted to explain why competing is not the only way of having fun. And I must add that while we did compete we had some fun, but I prefer it the way it is now.
Wind or no wind, fly for fun :-)
Jean (Johnny) Lemire
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In 1991 The Decorators went to Barcelona. We were supposed to be practicing for a two line event the following weekend but we just flew quads all through the weekend (with a couple of beer breaks and lunch as I recall!)
At the end of the weekend we resolved that there was, for us, no point in pursuing competition. Ironically, a couple of weeks later we won a competition for the best "team presentation" at a major festival. We did not know that we were being considered but the prize paid for our bar bills for the weekend. (no comments please;-)
There are bigger prizes.
Felix
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Johnny, Thanks for the OPTIONS... It wasn't my intention to rattle any nerves... I'm just a little concerned that the numbers of competitors is dropping. I just got into the sport kite circuit with my daughter flying pairs ballet and I'm worried that, just when we get into the sport, that the festivals/competitions might be dropped or cancelled for lack of flyers. Seeing Masters class flyers at these festivals/competitions is what inspired us to compete. Who will inspire the casual observer walking by if no one is flying? And as for whether we or not we have fun, check out Mike Dooley's IMHO column in the July issue http://www.kitelife.com I'm sure you'll see that we agree with you 100% on whether we fly for the fun of it.
Take a friend flying. Team AGAINST THE WIND Bob and Danielle Fermin
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I'll have to agree 100% on the fact that the numbers are dwindling... Where are they going??? "Old kite flyers don't die... they just fade away into an axle..." By the way, great job at Huntington Beach last May. You and your daughter have something very special and I'm sure you'll be a team to reckon with in the future. If you didn't catch it yet, see the article Mike Dooley wrote about you two in Kitelife. Keep up the great work!!! Also, wasn't Huntington supposed to be a National? I know a team from Seattle showed up as well as the regulars from BASKL and the Vegas area. I actually expected more competitors, but as we agree, the numbers weren't there.
Support your local kite store Chad
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Other interests I suppose. Traction flying draws alot of us away, and fighters. And kite making. And boredom with dual liners I'm sorry to say. One can only flip a kite so many ways.
I fully agree. Bob and Danielle are something to see, I'm looking forward to seeing them fly this weekend at Belmont.
Steve Bateman
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Bob, I think you're correct in your assessment of the dwindling competitions. My kite pal and a frequent competitor, Alan Brooks of Las Vegas, is facing the possibility of dropping from the competition rolls for the remainder of the season, due to the cost to him to travel to the competitions, and to the lack of opportunity to practice new routines for his ballet. Time is just so precious, to many of us, these days, and the costs of travel so high. Those of us who are lucky enough to have lived most of our lives on the beaches of California have had more opportunity than most to participate... alas, I didn't get into sport kite trick flying until I'd moved 500 miles inland to Las Vegas.
I had recently decided to take up Allen Stroh's challenge to enter competition, and had resolved to enter the novice precision and ballet events at the upcoming July 10th event at Belmont Shores. I began to practice my tricks with the thought of competition in mind, and found myself growing anxious about it, and enjoying my flying much less. So I changed my mind. I'm a park flyer, and a buggy rider, and I don't need additional sources of stress, outside my daily work schedule. I felt immediate relief from the pressure, once I resolved not to compete, and see no reason, at this time, to waffle back to competition as a pursuit. It just, apparently, ain't my "bag".
HOWEVER: I will continue to attend comp events, and to lend a hand as pit crew for any flyer in need. I will buy raffle tickets. I will play chauffer for my friend, Al Brooks, who works nights, so he can snooze on the way down to Long Beach. I will drag out everything in my bag at these events, and fly on the beach, answering questions and assisting others, especially those brand-new to the sport. I will write articles for KiteLife, praising the talents and efforts of folks like Bob and Danielle Fermin, who compete for fun, and so obviously enjoy it, and whose joy we all can share. I will contribute my energies and efforts to any kite-related event in my area, in the hope of growing the hobby side of kite flying, as well as the sport (comp) side. And, I will continue to hone my buggy skills, until perhaps I choose to compete in that venue. Or not.
Will there continue to be enough Shane Snowdens and Susan Shampos out there to keep competition flying alive and well? I think so. Will Bob and Danielle kick some serious butt in pairs competition? I hope so! Will the many, many contributors to kite flying competitions, who never compete themselves, still show up at 6:00 a.m. to set up the fields, hook up the sound system, tinker with unruly scoring software, and lug heavy paraphernalia to and from the beach? I bet they will.
And will Corey Jensen still drive all night, just to provide his colorful commentary and velvet vocal tones to the announcements of the events? Is there, gawd help us, some way to stop him?
)Nothing is foolproof, to a sufficiently talented fool!
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Hi Mike, hi folks.
Very good points.
To add to my previous post on this thread I migth say that competitions can be a part of a big show offering all kind of kites and kite flying to the public. Even if the public is only other kite flyers.
I dont mind seing 10 or more routines one after the other since I am always interrested in grabbing good ideas as far as manoeuvers flyers ground works aand choreographies, and etc. are concerned. However if I put myself in the shoes of Mr and Mrs. Joe public I can see how someone can get bored after seing too many similar routines one after the other. For example, I am not a fan of ice skating. So, after seing two or three routine I get bored of seing the same double or triple axel done at the same spot. Skating maniacs will find this fun, not me.
The secret migth be variety and short dose of each stuff. Festivals with huge area, like Wildwood, can offer that. You can watch the dual line stuff on one field, turn around and watch quad routines on the adjacent field. Then, if you get bored, you move along and go see the single liners or the figthers competition. Or move again and look at a Rok battle. But, for a smaller area, quite often the organisers have to stage many things in one field. So, alternating between different types of kites is a sure way of keeping spectators attention and keeping your public captive. The only possible drawback is that it may impose some stress on competitors. Having competed, I know what can be a long wait before staging in for a routine. In Ajax in 1997 we had to wait till the end of sunday afternoon to perform back to back, master team precision and master team ballet, ouch !!!
Maybe some team can compete without too much stress. They do not need to practice too much, relying on huge experience and very well known manoeuvers. They can walk in the field and just fly for fun intead of flying only for points. They dont mind the score. Cool, but I am a perfectionnist as are my other team mates. We like each manoeuvers to be perfect. We are like most other competitors. We want to perform at our best and get a good rank and even win. This is our reward for competing. On the other hand, doing a demo still imply we do our best. We do not have judges at our back but we migth have up to a few thousands peoples watching. We dont want to do sloppy stuff. Even if the majority of these people will not make the difference between a simple manoeuver and a complex one, we do not diminish the level of our flying. Hearing a WOW when we do some cool stuff and hearing applauses when we land at the end of a routine is our reward. For us this is worth a lot of points.
I have read the article in Kitelife about the father and daugther flying as a pair. I can only congratulate them and encourage them to continue. One thing they dont face is the problematic of coordinating the free time of four flyers for practice. This is not obvious at all. I lift my hat to large teams such as After Shock, Chicago Fire, The Sundowners, High Performance, The Decorators, and .... sorry if I forgot some. We are only four and these teams comprise from 5 to 8 flyers. This is an aspect that must be factored, especially when starting a team and if you want to get to the highest level.
I wont talk about the cost aspect involved in competing, since this has already been covered by other posts. I can simply add that doing demos is less expensive since quite often we get lodged and sometimes feeded if we go to some festivals. We even got transportation for some events. So, not only do we have less stress and more fun but it is also less expensive doing it that way. This allow us to go to more events and promote kite flying to a larger audience.
Just ideas.
Wind or no wind, fly for fun :-)
Jean (Johnny) Lemire
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I enjoy competing, I enjoy coming up with a ballet routine and perfecting it and practicing it and performing it. While there is a certain amount of stress involved, I like the process enough to overcome the stress part. (I've been doing well, though, and that certainly helps!) I look at it as a lot like the process of making, recording, and performing music, a process I also enjoy. If you're nervous about competing, the best thing to do (IMO) is to forget about the formal process of selecting music, choreographing a routine to the music and practicing it until you can fly it in your sleep and just get music you like and fly to it. That way you're having fun and if the score is good, great. If it's bad, well, at least you had fun! (I can't speak to precision, as there's no quadline precision where I compete) Just my $.02... I'll be at Belmont Shore this weekend and at Berkeley too! See you there if you're coming (I'll try to put my Rev stack up so you'll know who I am if you don't already-I'll have a blue alien cap on anyways) l8r -Eric Allen
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Hi Eric, hi folks.
I must agree with you and add that the stress level is not the same for all the members on a team. On our at least. What we do now, is put on some nice music and fly cool moves on it. Judges and seasoned kite flyers would notice that not every move is in sync. with the music but the general public do not and have a great time :-)
As for going to Berkeley or Belmont shore, its a bit too far from Montreal (about 4000 mi) and, this coming weekend, our team is taking part in a kite festival in Quebec City :-)
Wind or no wind, fly for fun :-)
Jean (Johnny) Lemire
Webmasters and IRC
We see alot of people posting about getting onto #kites on dal.net and about how they have trouble configuring an irc client. It seems that the easiest way to get people onto #kites is with a hypertext link. There is a java applet that acts as a gateway to irc. You dont even really have to purchase the scripts because webzone.dal.net has one on their server.
All you have to do is add the following code to your page and it will make a button that will start the applet on your visitor's web browser. The only requirement is that they have a java/javascript enabled web browser and that webzone.dal.net has free connections at the time they are trying to connect, which they usually do. Then they just click, and pick a screen name, and they are in. There's a generic example of this code at http://www.staff.uiu...wpark/chat.html which is the following form code inside a basic html page structure.
<//---start form code---//>
<form method="post" action="http://www.webzone.net/javachat/irc.asp">
<input NAME="channel" VALUE="#kites" TYPE="hidden">
<input type=submit>
</form>
<//---end form code---//>Anyway, it just seems like a very simple thing to do, and will get people onto dal.net in #kites pretty simply.
Hope to see more new faces in the chat room.
Walt Peace and Good Winds.
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Walter,
Thanks for the code. It is great!
I submit this minor change for consideration.
<input type="submit" VALUE="#Kites">
This changes the"submit query" text in the button to read "#Kites"
Steven (Elf)
Limerick Kiting
I once knew a kiter in Ireland,
who flies his kites higher than others can,
the kites flew to the sun
then came undone
and now he's as sad as a rubbish can .
aoxo coreykite@aol.com
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There was an old kiter, named Corey,
Who dwelt much in rhyme and in story...
He tickled the crowd, with his ramblings out loud,
and his punch-lines would fill up a lorry.
Now, Corey departed to deserts uncharted,
and pursued every chance for to buggy...
and discovered that Vegas, in midsummer rages,
becomes very wet, and most muggy.
So his audience dwindled, their interest unkindled,
since riding their toys was denied them.
Now will Corey depart, with a grin and a fart,
Or regale his poor roomies, infinitum?
aoxo... the dooley-monster
Novice Intermediate or Expert
Hi all
A recent thread about the evils (or otherwise) of competition set me thinking. Many, if not, all kites are sold as being suitable for certain standard of flier. Some are for beginners only, some are for those with a little experience and some should be handled only by experts. Other kites claim to cover more than one skill range, eg beginner to intermediate, intermediate or better, or from total novice to infinity and beyond.
So, what skills (or lack of 'em) would place a flier in any particular category? I appreciate that some might be excellent trick fliers but couldn't fly in a straight line even if their life depended on it (or vice versa) - unlikely, I know. What, in your not so humble opinions, are the skills one must have in order to say "I am a novice / beginner / intermediate / expert / master / kite god"?
I might as well set the ball rolling:
Novice: Is this a... er, what is this I see before me? Total beginner. Likely to say "Can I have a go?" Probably should not be trusted with anything that flies. But we've all got to start somewhere so let him / her have a go... under eagle-eyed supervision.
Beginner: Somewhat better than a novice. Can keep the kite in the air in moderate wind, do loops, figure eights etc without crashing and is possibly able to do some basic tricks such as an Axel or side slide. Can be trusted with your not too expensive kite... under hawk-eyed supervision.
Intermediate: Possibly either a beginner with delusions of grandeur (too big for his boots - talks a good flight) or an over-modest expert. Can do a quite large number of tricks in light to moderate winds but not always link them together in a pleasant way. Can fly reasonably precise lines most of the time in good wind conditions. Hand over your latest pride and joy and hope he doesn't break anything.
Expert: "A master class flier means the flier can fly any kite, any where, any wind, any time - No Excuses" Quotation from the late David Bui; one I shamelessly stole from a post by Collette. Master class / expert? Seems the same to me. Hang around this flier, ask questions, watch with wide open eyes... and learn.
KITE GOD: We are not worthy. 'Nuf said.
I rarely go out and fly pure precision so my comments on that aspect of flying are based more on how I'd *imagine* it should be done rather than how it probably should *actually* be done.
Awaiting the constructive comments / flames
Regards James
PS My own style of flying is best described as freestyle. I tend towards tricks in lighter winds and precision type things in stronger winds. I'd place myself in the middle of intermediate for tricks and at the bottom end of intermediate for precision - but as an intermediate maybe I'm just saying that ;-}
"Watch the kite, not where you're going!" (RB 29/8/98)
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If you're talking dual line fliers;
Novice: Someone I envy - no expectations = no frustrations. Beginner: Someone I envy - no one else expects = no embarrassment. Intermediate: Someone I envy - high expectations = no apathy. Expert: Someone I envy - high ability = (almost) no disasters. Kite God: Someone I don't envy - expected to answer prayers of all the above.
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Hi James, hi folks.
As far as I know there are four classes of flyers:
- novice;
- intermediate;
- experienced;
- master.
Then, from Ron Reich's "Kite Precision" book I extract the following citation :
- level one: the kite flies the flyer;
- level two: the flyer flies the kite;
- level three: the two (flyer and kite) achieve unity.
Then I would conclude that beginners are at the first level.
Novices flyers are a bit more experienced and can do a decent job in competitions if the conditions are good. They are between the first and second level.
Intermediates shall be able to control their kites more completely. Still, they can be surprised by some unexpected wind shift of other factors. They are between the second and third level
Experienced flyers can do a very good job and can be expected to cope with sudden changing conditions. I would say that they are at the beginning of third level.
Master flyers are able to cope with just about every possible conditions and still put on a very good show. They are pushing level three to its limit.
Just my ideas.
Wind or no wind, fly for fun
Jean (Johnny) Lemire
Arch Project 99
Greetings
The arch has grown by ten more sails. Karl Longbottom of England had sent in three sails. Some of Karl’s sails were on last years arch too. Barbara Hall and Bryan Leonard have sent in one sail each. Ron Reich sent in three and Jo Anne Grabe sent in two sails. All ten are great addition to our arch. You can see pictures of them at my web site.
http://members.aol.c...Tsom/index.html
Just go to the bottom of the page and hit “Arch 99 Sails page 3." It’s difficult to say how many sails we have so far. Some of the clubs have made full sections and have already been flying them in their area kite festivals. I do know that it’s over 300. If you are a member of one of the clubs that have made a section, e-mail me and tell me how many you got. When I find out how many sails they have dedicated to The Arch Project, I’ll let you know the total. Only a few weeks remain until the dead line so if you haven’t started, you better get busy. I have extend the dead line to September 15. Any sails that come after that I’ll do my best to get them on the line. If I don’t have time to sew them on I’ll still donate them to the auction.
Thanks Terry Sansom The Arch Project is sponsored by Kinetc Kites and Hang-em-High Fabrics. http://members.aol.c...Tsom/index.html
http://www.telepath.com/kiteman/
http://www.citystar.com/hang-em-high/
Rules for Rokkaku Fights
Hello I am looking for some rules for a rokkaku fight. So if you know to find them on the Internet, please send me a mail .
Best regards Asbjorn Baek
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In this site but in spanish is the complete rules Look at articulos section... http://members.tripod.com/batoco Regards
Gabriel Krasnopolsky
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I think the rules are posted on the AKA web site. I know they have a lot of the rules posted there.
Collette
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I'm sorry to have to say that the AKA does NOT have rules for rokaku fighting on our site.
The Fighter Kite Committee, now under new leadership, is working on them but, alas, they are not yet available.
Chuck Sigal
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Hmmmmm, I guess not. They have a book on it I thought they would have it on the page by now. Everything takes time. LOL
Collette
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The problem is that the book is in revision. Rather than publishing a version which was soon to be replaced I decided to wait. Unfortunately the process has dragged on and on. That committee now has a new chair and, hopefully, will get back on track. Hey, such is life in a volunteer organization.
Chuck Sigal
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It's been my experience that once the command is given to engage there are no rules. ;-) That is until I step out of bounds. :-( From The Land of 10,000 Kite Flying Fields, (where men are men, when their fingers are frozen) Jerry Houk
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Jerry, I've only seen one ROK battle myself and trust that there were some serious contenders. It was a no holds barred, similar to WWF with kitelines and more fun to watch than a barrel full of monkeys.
I wanta do a ROK battle someday very soon. It has less to do with rules and more to do with FUN!!!! Just my kind of gig....
Color My Sky, Ellen
We thought New York was tough
This came to me on the news wire this morning......can you believe it?
PHNOM PENH (Reuters) - Cambodian authorities have cracked down hard on a new social menace children flying kites in city parks.
The pastime is hard on the grass, authorities said. So police have been chasing children away from parks in the capital and confiscating kites from vendors in a heavy handed blitz on the flyers, the Phnom Penh Post reported Friday. ``We cannot even let two or three people play with kites in the park because then there will suddenly be 100 or 200 people flying kites, too,'' one security guard told the newspaper.
Flocks of colorful kites, their tails streaming in rainy season breezes, have been flying over the city in recent weeks.
`Cambodians love to fly kites because they look so pretty in the sky,'' said one kite vendor. ``And it makes then relax because it has nothing to do with politics.''
But city officials said the kite flyers were damaging the grass and posing a traffic hazard.
- Craig Rodgerson
Issue 12 (Nov/Dec 1999): Kites... Life.
in #12 - Nov/Dec '99
Posted
What makes a great event like the AKA Nationals possible? Hundreds of hours of work by true professionals - work done behind the scenes with very little recognition, with the main reward being the tired, yet satisfied feeling that they all had on Sunday night. A year's preparation resulted in another great event, ah yes. 505 fliers had a ball, work well done.
The people who made this happen are too numerous to mention, but you know who you are. I thank you for your efforts on our behalf.
Operation Outreach
We got great response to last issue's column, where I called for staging kite festivals that are more appealing to the public. I was surprised at the number of sportkite competitors who reacted favorably to the idea of slimming the number of disciplines, leaving more time for fun, and activities geared toward involving the public.
While it may take a long time to evolve most kite festivals to the point that they are a great way for the whole family to spend an entire day, there are some things that festival promoters can do immediately to better attract, and then entertain the general public.
Work harder at publicity! The time and effort spent on getting word of your festival out to the public is time well spent. Don't stop at press releases! A savvy event promoter could take the time to make a videotape with short segments of the high points of a fest; kids flying kites, a Masters team, mass ascensions... you get the idea. They say a picture is worth a thousand words... what is video worth?
"Interactive" is a keyword of the 90's. Static entertainment is becoming a thing of the past. Folks want to be involved, not to sit back and watch. Any festival that doesn't offer a well-staffed "learn to fly" experience is missing the boat. Besides sportkites, you could do the LTF experience with fighter kites, rokkakus; and then have a Novice comp for the new fliers.
Eliminate dead air! Have you ever been listening to the radio, and the station suddenly goes silent? How many seconds does it take before you change stations? Keep kites in the air, keep a knowledgeable commentator on the microphone, keep pleasant music playing.
Stage a Mass Ascension each day of the festival, at a set time. Publicize the bejeezus out of it. Several years ago, my parents came to Grand Haven for the Great Lakes event. The Mass Ascension went off right at noon, then *BAM*, Masters Ballet. My folks were blown away. "Ma and Pa America Stunned, Film At 11". They walked over to the sales tent, and bought two kites, which they have flown ever since.
These are only a few ideas toward making a kite festival more fun for the public. Some promoters are already well on the way to making their festivals great, Roger Chewning (Wildwood, Ocean City, etc) and Tom McAllister (Berkeley) come to mind.
Most of the rest of you have some work to do.
Out Of The Frying Pan..
This column is not about me, but there is a personal note that I wanted to briefly speak about. Those who know me know that I have been outspoken about my concerns with organized kiting. The AKA has not always been seen as an action-oriented, dynamic organization.
Adam Grow, the newly-elected AKA president, has initiated a reorganization of the Standing Committees. These committees are the ones who make things happen for the membership. (This is where the irony comes in: in my last column, I publicly endorsed Gomberg as a write-in candidate for the Pres job!). The goal of this reorganization is to get some long-delayed projects moved through the system in a short period of time.
It's "Put up or shut up" time for me. Adam has asked me to take a leadership position within the Association. We are almost done putting the crew together; a group of talented, excited folks who want to help move the sport forward.
Between my position as editor/publisher of KiteLife, and my AKA position, I know that I will be wearing several hats, that may not always be compatible. There will be some difficulties, I'm sure, but I am excited. It's time to try to make a difference.
This column will not become an AKA mouthpiece, but it will continue to feature my thoughts and observations. As always, I welcome your feedback.
Enjoy the new issue.