Thanks for all the great info, I appreciate it. I'll try to get these techniques down, although I'm sure Spz0 loves to help me out for all the great excercise he gets. Also on a completely unrelated note. I can finally do an axle, albeit a sloppy one, but an axle just the same. (first actual trick) So, a MILLION thanks to Jon (Spz0) for all his help along the way, I am fortunate indeed to have a good friend to help me learn.