Premier Widow

[Nosetotail]

Hi guys, this is my first post. I posted a related topic over on GW, and I wanted to see if I could get any relative input over here. I picked up a new Premier Widow for my first freestyle kite this week and I have put about 6 hours on it. I find it to be quite squirrely with a lot of oversteer, sooo not what has been described to me about the WM. I had an experienced flyer give it a go and he completely aggreed. I also flew his Tantrum which I found extremely difficult to oversteer and even impossible to loose control. I added this to qualify that I can fly a sport kite without too many issues. I started a disscussion on GW concerning possible bridle adjustments, but I'm more interested in hearing others experience with their new Widow, and perhaps comparing bridle measurements. I understand that the demo's flew quite well, but I have already recieved one report on GW from someone who flew a new one this weekend and found it to oversteer quite a bit.

[Stryker48]

I purchased a pair of Premier Widows for flying multiples and was also somewhat disappointed in the kites precision. The kites have lots of oversteer at all of the bridle settings. Definitely not a precision kite, but then again, that's not really the purpose of this kite. (I don't think it can/will compare to the Widow maker):http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=HYZw3RE6dZM

Since I'm not into tricks and somewhat inexperienced in that department, I won't comment on the Widow's trickability.

So for my purposes, it's unfortunately not a great kite, which is a pity as it really looks great in the air.

[windofchange]

The Widow and the WM are both trick oriented kites. They are probably not the kites you want for precision flying. I would classify the Widow and the WM somewhere between the Benson Deep Space and the Quantum Pro on flying characteristics. The QP will have more precision, the Deep Space will be a lot more squirrelly. For tricks the Widow is awesome and you won't be disappointed at all with it, it can do pretty much anything you want it to and does them all very well. The Widow requires some snappy input to keep the oversteer in check but the oversteer is nothing that isn't expected from a high aspect ratio trick kite. My Benson Deep Space and Silver Fox 2.5 have about the same or even more oversteer than the Widow. The oversteer is usually on the pilots part and you should be able to get it in check within the first 10-15 minutes of flying. I can get some sharp snappy 90' punch turns with my Widow but you do have to be abrupt/precise with the inputs and fast. Sloppy input turns will give you a ton of oversteer because the kite wants to go into trick mode instead of precision mode. Again this is not a precision kite but it can be pretty impressive with the precision when you get use to its behavior.

I have put up a review that discusses the Widow a lot more in the review section of this forum. You may want to take a look at it.

We had our demo Widow out for a couple weekends now and everyone who has flown it absolutely loves the kite. It can trick more than I can throw at it.

[Stryker48]

As mentioned, I had not covered the Widow's trick ability, which I'm sure as you mentioned, is very capable, which is what it was designed for. For my purposes however, where I'm flying one kite from each hand and putting in very sharp inputs like you would controlling the kite with 2 hands, is near impossible, so the oversteer is there to stay for me with this kite unfortunately. Flying tails off the wing tips will help somewhat.

So for flying multiple kites, IMHO, it's not the best choice of kite. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!

Since this kite was primarily designed for doing tricks with its high aspect ratio, I'm sure it will more than please those looking for a trick monster with striking good looks.

Another word of note: I have had a couple of moderate unplanned landings with my Widows during practice and by the end of the day, I found that I had lost one yo-yo stopper from each kite. The thin black ties that hold them onto the LE, broke very easy.(Not a 'biggie' for me since I'm not tricking them at this time anyway)

I'm going to keep experimenting and try and get the most out of these beautiful kites, that I can.

[DaveH]

Stryker, so you got those two red ones? The photo was beautiful! yeah, I think I'm with you on the multiple kites thing. Probably not the best tool for the job at hand. I like mine alot, as I said in the review. The oversteer isn't that big of a deal for messing around tricking. Thats sort of how I see the kite, just something fun to relieve the intensity of "practicing." My only complaint so far is that it doesn't sit as deep in a turtle as I would like. Still, the winds have been pretty weird lately and I want more time on it. I think its something I can get used to/figure out. So far I'm hitting lazy rotations immediately after throwing it into a backflip. That way I can catch it wherever I want and keep the tips lookin up, so to speak.

Anyway, sorry they're not working out. I think you're right on the money and if it were me, unless you want to start trickin' I'd sell them and get something more appropriate.

[Stryker48]

Yes I got the 2 red ones.

They do look very cool in the air. I'm still going to keep them as I do want to get some tricking under my belt.

Stryker, so you got those two red ones? The photo was beautiful! yeah, I think I'm with you on the multiple kites thing. Probably not the best tool for the job at hand. I like mine alot, as I said in the review. The oversteer isn't that big of a deal for messing around tricking. Thats sort of how I see the kite, just something fun to relieve the intensity of "practicing." My only complaint so far is that it doesn't sit as deep in a turtle as I would like. Still, the winds have been pretty weird lately and I want more time on it. I think its something I can get used to/figure out. So far I'm hitting lazy rotations immediately after throwing it into a backflip. That way I can catch it wherever I want and keep the tips lookin up, so to speak.

Anyway, sorry they're not working out. I think you're right on the money and if it were me, unless you want to start trickin' I'd sell them and get something more appropriate.

[DaveH]

Cool. I was flying mine in light wind today without the tail weight. I really liked it that way. 'It still rolled up like crazy. Kind of makes me think it might benefit from some weight further up the spine. That weight's pretty heavy. Feels like about 20 grams. It really reduced the effort needed to fly it in light winds.

Yeah, so Stryker, this kite will teach you all you want to know about tricking.

Yes I got the 2 red ones.

They do look very cool in the air. I'm still going to keep them as I do want to get some tricking under my belt.

Stryker, so you got those two red ones? The photo was beautiful! yeah, I think I'm with you on the multiple kites thing. Probably not the best tool for the job at hand. I like mine alot, as I said in the review. The oversteer isn't that big of a deal for messing around tricking. Thats sort of how I see the kite, just something fun to relieve the intensity of "practicing." My only complaint so far is that it doesn't sit as deep in a turtle as I would like. Still, the winds have been pretty weird lately and I want more time on it. I think its something I can get used to/figure out. So far I'm hitting lazy rotations immediately after throwing it into a backflip. That way I can catch it wherever I want and keep the tips lookin up, so to speak.

Anyway, sorry they're not working out. I think you're right on the money and if it were me, unless you want to start trickin' I'd sell them and get something more appropriate.

[Stryker48]

I don't use weights if I'm pulling any kind of tail. As mentioned, I'm hoping to get into doing some tricks this summer. I will use the Widows for sure!

This is not a light wind kite and needs at least 3 to 4mph to fly without weights and/or tails.

For light winds I LOVE my Desire UL's for flying multiples. The frame is too flexible to be a light wind trick kite.

Cool. I was flying mine in light wind today without the tail weight. I really liked it that way. 'It still rolled up like crazy. Kind of makes me think it might benefit from some weight further up the spine. That weight's pretty heavy. Feels like about 20 grams. It really reduced the effort needed to fly it in light winds.

Yeah, so Stryker, this kite will teach you all you want to know about tricking.

Yes I got the 2 red ones.

They do look very cool in the air. I'm still going to keep them as I do want to get some tricking under my belt.

Stryker, so you got those two red ones? The photo was beautiful! yeah, I think I'm with you on the multiple kites thing. Probably not the best tool for the job at hand. I like mine alot, as I said in the review. The oversteer isn't that big of a deal for messing around tricking. Thats sort of how I see the kite, just something fun to relieve the intensity of "practicing." My only complaint so far is that it doesn't sit as deep in a turtle as I would like. Still, the winds have been pretty weird lately and I want more time on it. I think its something I can get used to/figure out. So far I'm hitting lazy rotations immediately after throwing it into a backflip. That way I can catch it wherever I want and keep the tips lookin up, so to speak.

Anyway, sorry they're not working out. I think you're right on the money and if it were me, unless you want to start trickin' I'd sell them and get something more appropriate.

[DaveH]

Yup. It definitely likes a bit of wind. I feel like I need to do a bunch more flying with it before I truly click with it. I've barely begun to do any adjusting and I haven't really practiced any moves with it. I just pretty much fly and have fun. I think I could get a lot better at certain transitions, etc. Things I've gotten down with other kites but haven't spent the time with this one to learn what it wants in a given situation. Most things work ok and its really fun to fly so I haven't worried about it. I just think there are some pretty nice rewards in there for someone willing to spend the time. It promises so much. However, as mentioned above, I never thought it would rival the Widow Maker. I consider it an inexpensive fun trick kite which stands on its own.

[Merlion]

Yup. It definitely likes a bit of wind. I feel like I need to do a bunch more flying with it before I truly click with it. I've barely begun to do any adjusting and I haven't really practiced any moves with it. I just pretty much fly and have fun. I think I could get a lot better at certain transitions, etc. Things I've gotten down with other kites but haven't spent the time with this one to learn what it wants in a given situation. Most things work ok and its really fun to fly so I haven't worried about it. I just think there are some pretty nice rewards in there for someone willing to spend the time. It promises so much. However, as mentioned above, I never thought it would rival the Widow Maker. I consider it an inexpensive fun trick kite which stands on its own.

Hello Gentlemen,

I am not sure if you have been made aware of this yet. But there are some modification's that you might need to contact Premier about for the Widow. These are both structural and bridle mods. If you can't get the information direct from Premier. Then may I suggest you contact Skyburner Kites, and ask Jon T or Marieanne T to email you what is necessary. To then improve your Widow's.

I fly a Widowmaker, and have heard from them direct that these mods need to happen to get the best from the Widow.

Regards,

Merlion

[Stryker48]

Thanks Merlion, I will contact Jon Trennepohl re the Widow.

Yup. It definitely likes a bit of wind. I feel like I need to do a bunch more flying with it before I truly click with it. I've barely begun to do any adjusting and I haven't really practiced any moves with it. I just pretty much fly and have fun. I think I could get a lot better at certain transitions, etc. Things I've gotten down with other kites but haven't spent the time with this one to learn what it wants in a given situation. Most things work ok and its really fun to fly so I haven't worried about it. I just think there are some pretty nice rewards in there for someone willing to spend the time. It promises so much. However, as mentioned above, I never thought it would rival the Widow Maker. I consider it an inexpensive fun trick kite which stands on its own.

Hello Gentlemen,

I am not sure if you have been made aware of this yet. But there are some modification's that you might need to contact Premier about for the Widow. These are both structural and bridle mods. If you can't get the information direct from Premier. Then may I suggest you contact Skyburner Kites, and ask Jon T or Marieanne T to email you what is necessary. To then improve your Widow's.

I fly a Widowmaker, and have heard from them direct that these mods need to happen to get the best from the Widow.

Regards,

Merlion

[DaveH]

Good point, Merlion, thanks. Stryker, please post your findings. I'd like to hear what he has to say. I read about this problem on GWTW, but after changing the tow point and chucking the weight, mine's flying fine so I let it go. Still, it would be interesting to know...

[Stryker48]

This is the response I got back from Shawn T

Just off of the phone with Jon T:

There are a couple of things on the earlier models, that are causing the problems. both of them are an easy fix.

1) There were inserts placed in the upper LE fitting. These are keeping the Upper spreader from going all the way in. The nose needs to be pulled in a bit. His suggestion was to remove the insert by, squeezing the fitting with pliers, to break the insert. Use any type of tool to remove the pieces. This will allow the spreader to seat fully.

2) The bridle needs to be stretched a bit. Those with significant time on the kite, may not need to.

3) The way that the pigtail is tied to the bridle is causing it to shorten the legs. If you are comfortable with tying a Prussic knot, you can remove the pigtail and tie properly. If not, it shouldn't be a problem as long as the bridle is able to reach the proper lengths.

Bridle lengths, with the upper outhaul on the 3rd knot are...

Inhaul 22 3/4"

Upper outhaul 20 1/2"

Lower outhaul 22 1/2"

This has been corrected and they should be fine, from here on. Dealers, either have been, or are being notified.

Hope this helps.

Shawn T

Hope that helps

Steve

Good point, Merlion, thanks. Stryker, please post your findings. I'd like to hear what he has to say. I read about this problem on GWTW, but after changing the tow point and chucking the weight, mine's flying fine so I let it go. Still, it would be interesting to know...

[DaveH]

Thanks! I made the corrections. It will be interesting to see how it flies now. As I said, I liked it a lot before....

[Stryker48]

You're welcome!

I haven't tried mine out either. Hopefully in the next day or two.

Thanks! I made the corrections. It will be interesting to see how it flies now. As I said, I liked it a lot before....

[JoneZ]

Holy crap BUMP** for no reason!

I just read this thread, and believe it or not, mine is an older model (it had inserts in the upper LE fittings).

Those have been removed, and luckily, I had already tied another pigtail when I got the kite. All the lines are stretched, and match up to the factory specs (nice to have those dimensions, as I will most certainly be experimenting bridle design with this kite.).

Interested to see how she flies.

I'll let you all know.

~Jon

[JoneZ]

Flew her out at Cannon Beach this weekend with the inserts removed from the upper L.E. fittings.

I also installed a 30# dacron leech line along the trailing edge.

With those 2 simple mod's I made, the performance improvement was like flying a new kite. Its so responsive now -- locking in 90o turns with minimal oversteer (if none at all).

It is a little different in regards to the intensity of your inputs. In a good way though. Now its seeming like I don't have to pop as hard to get into stalled positions. As well as locking in precision turning. Theres just overall less input required.

<-- Extremely Happy.

If you have a Widow, I would definitely recommend installing a leech line along with removing those inserts.

~Jon

[JoneZ]

One thing that I am noticing since the leech line install, is that in higher winds (15+) my lower leading edge tends to distort in the middle of the window. But, the tradeoff there is the fact that I can now fly in 2-3Mph winds. Don't ask me how, I just can. Set the nose all the way forward (with the knotted tow points on the upper L.E.), and just slightly adjust the bridles tow point forward about 1/8 1/4 ", and she flies pretty decent (great for the slack line tricks).

I think this post just turned into my Widow endeavors thread. heh

[JoneZ]

edit: there are not inserts in the lower APA's. I was mistaken. But they do distort after flying. Dean750 recommended using contact glue on fittings to lock them into a stationary position on the leading edge, so they don't distort. I think I will do this after I wear my first pair out.

Thanks.

~Jon

Another thing I noticed, is that Im wearing through my lower L.E. APA fittings. They also have inserts in them, and it is causing the lower spreaders to distort the natural shape of the fittings themselves.

Im wondering if it would be safe to remove these as well? I would probably have to get longer standoffs, to compensate for the removal of them.

Any suggestions?

[JoneZ]

thread = owned.

Was at Cannon Beach Oregon again this weekend, and stopped by my favorite kite shop. The Kite Factory. I recommend this shop to anyone going out that way to the beach. It's run by a guy named "Wizard". I bought my first sport kite there, and a bunch of single lines. He's a good good friend, and one of the coolest cats I've met since I've moved to Oregon. I wanted to buy 50 feet of bulk 50# laser gold spectra. He ended up giving me 80feet for 10$, throwing in some lightweight hand straps and threw in about 20 feet of 80# polyester braided spectra to boot!

So,, I decided to make a lightweight bridle out of the braided spectra for my Widow.

I Just installed it today. The bridle weighs less than 1 gram, as opposed to the original bridle which weighs in at a whopping 8 grams.

I took it out today to stretch it out. The winds were about 1-2Mph (gauged by a nearby flag, which was barely getting lift off the pole), and I strapped the new bridle on, with an 80 foot 50# lineset and took off. To my surprise, that sucker took off like I lit its ass on fire! On a day that I normally would pack it all in, and stomp off my field, I was running 360's, trickin flic flacs, lazys, yoyo's, 540's, etc...

I flew for about 1 1/2 hours -- the bridle stretched out about 1/4" or so, so I compensated, and relaunched. Flew like a dream.

Since I do not have a UL or an SUL I was prompted to rebridle the widow for light wind conditions, and I am not at all disappointed.

The Widow's stock bridle on the inhaul and lower outhaul were just larksheaded to the frame, so I had to make pigtails on the lower LE and the spine for quick release points. I made them small enough so they only brought the bridle out 1/4" -- just enough so that I just have to tie another overhand knot on the inhaul and lower outahuls loop points to make up for the 1/4" pigtails.

I made small pull tabs on all the inhaul/outhaul lines of the lightweight bridle at their larkshead points, made from tying double overhand knots about 1/4" down from the top of the main loop point (if that makes sense), so swapping bridles is a snap.

[Dean750]

Smart move with the pigtails. I did this when I was working on a bridle for my Box of Tricks.

Those pigtails also add adjustability to your bridle if you hadn't thought about that yet.

Let the bottom out on the spine and the outter lower spreader while pulling the top in and it pulls the nose in. Top out, bottom in to lay it back.

Center T in, outter lower spreader out moves the tow point in closer to the spine causing your turn rate to speed up. (smaller movements, might cause oversteer possible easier snap stalls.)

Center out, lower in moves the tow point out slowing the turn rate. (lessins oversteer)

So adjusting your bridle between marks fine tunes the kite instead of being the overall tuning.

Just thought I'd throw that out there. Something else to tweak on while your at it.

If your lower spreaders distort in upper winds or on hard snaps let me know. I'll fill ya in about Shunts.

Dean

[JoneZ]

If your lower spreaders distort in upper winds or on hard snaps let me know. I'll fill ya in about Shunts.

Dean

Enlighten me. I notice my lower LE's flex in higher winds, although Im thinking thats from the leech line. But I did just put a crack in my P200's (I used a hollow core ferrule as the center T, which shredded, causing the P200's to fracture Im sure) and P300 lower spreaders (that one happened just this weekend at the beach. about a 1/4" fracture on the side that inserts over the center T ferrule (which is a solid core).

~Jon

PS. When u headin back up to Portland?

[DaveH]

Jon,

very glad you figured out yours was one of the original ones. Mine is stock except for removing the upper inserts, removing the weight and raising the tow point via the knots. Very nice kite. I have so much time on this thing. Its been my go to kite for a long time. Not flying it these days, got some new toys, but I think its a great value. Wonderful yo yo trainer. Why not shoot some vid and show us your Widow in action?

[Dean750]

If your lower spreaders distort in upper winds or on hard snaps let me know. I'll fill ya in about Shunts.

Dean

Enlighten me. I notice my lower LE's flex in higher winds, although Im thinking thats from the leech line. But I did just put a crack in my P200's (I used a hollow core ferrule as the center T, which shredded, causing the P200's to fracture Im sure) and P300 lower spreaders (that one happened just this weekend at the beach. about a 1/4" fracture on the side that inserts over the center T ferrule (which is a solid core).

~Jon

PS. When u headin back up to Portland?

Not sure when I'll be back up. Are you going to the Lincoln City Summer Festival? June 27 and 28th I think.

Shunts are basically a line that you attach to the inner leg of your bridle that connects to the lower spreader. When the bridle is taught there is just a slight bit of slack in the shunt so as to not affect the kites handling. When your lower spreader starts to flex it can only flex till the shunt comes tight. Stopping the distortion. I'll have to take a couple of pictures of what I'm talking about in the next couple of days.

Would be cool if you could figure out the scale for the Turbo bridle on your Widow. I think it would lessen the stress on the frame no matter what the wind is like.

I'll get back to ya in a day or two with some pics.

Dean

[JoneZ]

Not sure when I'll be back up. Are you going to the Lincoln City Summer Festival? June 27 and 28th I think.

Shunts are basically a line that you attach to the inner leg of your bridle that connects to the lower spreader. When the bridle is taught there is just a slight bit of slack in the shunt so as to not affect the kites handling. When your lower spreader starts to flex it can only flex till the shunt comes tight. Stopping the distortion. I'll have to take a couple of pictures of what I'm talking about in the next couple of days.

Would be cool if you could figure out the scale for the Turbo bridle on your Widow. I think it would lessen the stress on the frame no matter what the wind is like.

I'll get back to ya in a day or two with some pics.

Dean

Would enjoy some pis m8. Thanks.

I've heard a couple different definitions of a turbo bridle. One was what I call a dynamic bridle -- where you make a yoke with the outhaul and attach it to the inner leg. Then theres another one where you take a separate piece of line, taking one end and attaching it to the upper leading edge, just above the fitting, and the other end attaches to the inner leg, just below the tow point pulling the leg in a little.

Which are you referring to?

Either way I've tried both, with not much success. I just don't know enough about bridling yet to be sure about measurements and scaling. Would love to sit down for an aft. with ya and chew the fat on it, maybe test some setups out.

~Jon