Design / tuning questions: Pancake

[godric]

I asked this as part of another post in another section of the forum where it's arguably off-topic, so I'll move just this part of it here ...

Here's a question for you knowledgeable kite designers: what is it about the Elixir, for example, that makes it so much more prone to go beyond horizontal to nose-up in a Pancake? It makes it so much easier to do those easy fade-flacs that I associate with Mark Reed's flying style -- when I point the Phoenix away from me at the top of the window it wants to start digging post holes unless I throw it a huge amount of slack (double arm length and quick sprint), and even then it pancakes more or less level, which makes it harder to get enough momentum to come all the way back to a fade. I've played with the weight that comes with it, attaching it to the base of the spine, and it definitely affects Turtles and Lazy Susans; the effect on pancakes is a little less dramatic.

Is this something I can affect positively with weights and bridle adjustments, or is this related more to sail / spine height and wing design?

Good winds --

-- Paul

[ikky68]

Paul,

To answer your question: "It depends."

The Elixir is very touchy in the pancake. That is, the flic-flac trick is not the easiest to perform on this kite.

Weight on the tail of a kite will do one thing. While weight in other places will do something else. It really depends on your style of flying on what you want and where to put it.

If you want a pitch happy kite, then weight on the tail will help you. But this makes the kite sit more shallow when in the turtle postition. This pitch happy attitude is only applicable when the kite is pitching nose first. Not so much when the tail is leading the pitch.

If you put weight on the nose, the pitch will have a longer throw when the nose is leading.

Bridle adjustments will affect the kite greatly... That was a no-brainer. For example, try to rebridle your elixir with wider tow points and you'll see that the backspins get easier.

The mylar on the Elixir add much to its personality (IMHO). The outer standoff also contributes to the Elixir's personality when pitching. If you want to make the backspin easier, take out some of the flair from the outer standoff.

One last thing, the weight on the tail of the kite will affect the flic-flac move. Most kites aren't hindered too badly. My home grown kite for example, sucks at flic-flacs if more than 10g are on the tail.

[godric]

ikky68,

Thanks for your reply!

>The Elixir is very touchy in the pancake. That is, the flic-flac trick is

>not the easiest to perform on this kite.

Compared to my Phoenix (which is about all I have to compare it to), it's a dream: you can work almost in slow motion instead of jamming and popping.

To clarify, by the way: I borrowed the Elixir, and own a Phoenix and an Obsession (plus a few cheap kites for passers-by to fly). My observation was that it's very hard to get either of my kites into a pancake: they want to dive for the ground as soon as I point them away from me at the top of the window, or if I do get them level I can't pop them all the way back to a fade, so they just dive again. The Elixir was pretty well-behaved: when I threw slack at it it pancaked beyond level to nose-up, which gave me some more momentum to work with when I tugged it into a fade.

Managed to break the Obsession again on Sunday -- once again it was on the ground, with a wrap that I couldn't see, and tugging on the line was enough to snap a spar. Ah, well, time to go visit The Kite Shoppe!

Agreed on the statement that weights aren't a cure-all. I'm going to try moving the tow points up a bit to see if that gives me more direct control over the nose of the kite.

Good winds --

-- Paul

[The Kite Shoppe]

time to go visit The Kite Shoppe!

Good winds --

-- Paul

All is well! Obsession all better now!

Theresa

[godric]

Yep, it's got a working skeleton again -- thanks! Still having some trouble pancaking it, but I got in a bit of a ballet workout and a few tricks on the way home.

It's been kinda funny having a car these last few days -- I've just left the kite bag in the car and found some opportunity to fly almost every day. Now I just need to find a way to strap the kite bag onto my recumbent bicycle ...

[Moon Kushner]

So far I can get three on my bicycle, just have to be picky.

It is all about the velcro and the positioning.

[kitepilot]

Hey godric, here's a thought...why strap kites to your recumbent bike?

You've seen those guys buggying around with parasails, right?

Now there's an idea!!! Post the photos!!!

kitepilot

[godric]

[picture in my head: Paul holding a kite in one hand and the handlebars in the other, following the gusts through the urban canyons of Portland, right up to the point where he goes under the bridge or, more likely, under the light-rail power cable]

I'll just jot a quick note to my wife about posting the photos, probably in the form of a poll: "Doesn't Paul look natural?"

[Penny Lingenfelter]

Short lines, you could do it! Except for the pedal/brakes situation.

We want to see the pics!

BB

Penny