Traveller

Happy birthday, old man!!! 29... that's like over-the-hill, ain't it? J/K big-time, lol!!! Enjoy the day & may your bd wishes come true (gf wearing nothing but the fabric of a new Rev, maybe...? )

Damn, those are huuuuge - but to be expected I guess with such a powerful kite I can't imagine the bigger Blasts are even remotely comparible to their cousins the 1.5s & such - must be a totally different feeling. Do you uh, float your blast 4-8 often... ROFL! Thx for the pic, Kent! - but alu-wrapped carbon handles...? You certain 'bout that? cu,

Hi! Not exactly a topic exclusively to Sport Kiting, none the less, this seemed to be the best sub-forum to discuss an excellent article I read in Kite Pasion Magazine Issue No. 16 (Apr/May 1999) regarding the "modern" kite fabrics available to today's kite designers! The article is very well written & if you can get you hands on a copy then by all means do so (& if anyone knows if Kite Passion is/was archived to the net, then please post the link, thx!) I've included a simple table I constructed to "highlight" the more important properties of the different fabrics. Note that the author of the article managed to obtain Tim Benson's help to test the differences between all three modern materials, Icarex PC-31, Ventex & Chikara. Benson went ahead and produced an Outerspace in all three materials(...!) To summarize, the polyester materials are more responsive to the flyer's input but are testy at the kite's upper wind-range. The nylon (Chikara) version was more forgiving (or less precise, depending on your view) and was still controlable when pushing the upper wind-range limits. Overall winner, btw, was Icarex PC-31. AFAIK, there has been no recent changes to the available fabrics to date, making the article still "current" (- but please do correct me if that's not the case!) Traveller's [unofficial] Kite-Fabrics Chart Property Canvas Plastic Sheeting Ripstop Carrington K42 Icarex PC-31 Ventex* Chikara* Type Cloth (uh, Plastic...?) Nylon Nylon Polyester Polyester Nylon Weight(g) high (high) mid mid 31 34.5 41.2 Strech ? ? high high mid v.low high sq. size (mm) - - ? ? 10x10 18x9 5x5 stiching - - ? ? double single/double** double Tearing Resistance (high) ? high high low v. low high Permeability (high) (v. low) (low) (low) v. low(!) med low Coating (sides) - - (single) (single) single single both Texture - - soft soft v. crisp crisp soft Price - - - - high mid low Era pre-'70s early '70s late '70s early '90s mid '90s late '90s late '90s I believe that both Ventex & Chikara are made by the Japanese firm Toray. **Double-stiched on the longer, single on the shorter edges. It can be assumed that the designer must use Ventex in the proper "direction".... With help from article in Kite Passion No. 16, Apr/May 1999 Please note all values in () are guesstimates

John, you da man! Thx for putting in so much effort into making the forums even better for us

P.S. Look our for my upcoming nerd-alert-post on the various lines (Dacron, Kevlar, Spectra, Spectra 2000, Dyneema SK-60, Dyneema SK-75, Coramid, HPM...), lol! But don't blame me, it's Aiyana's doing!!!

Doug, thx for taking the time As I am in EU, there will always be somewhat of a delay between replies, so don't sweat it (& more importantly, this is a forum, not a help desk & no one should/can expect an SLA (Service Level Agreement) turnaround time ;-) I have methodically extrapolated the information from your research (nerd-alert!) and noting that your SUL is almost the exact opposite of mine in panel-to-fabric selection, I have deduced the following.... The good news is that all SULs are built with a mix of Ventex & Icarex* fabrics. This rules out the possibility that they ran out of Ventex when building my SUL. The odd news is that Revolution's impartial to which panels are in which fabric...! This implies that they are looking to shave 1.5~1.8gs off the SUL but do not take advantage (however little it may be) of selecting the more tear-resistant (Icarex) or less prone to stretch (Ventex) for specific panels. So I have to assume that they bought a bunch of Icarex fabric to complement their all-Ventex stock & select panels based on whatever color (from which ever fabric) is in stock, as long as it's a ~50-50 mix. Now if I could choose, I'd prefer your SUL because you have the Icarex (stretches more) in the mid-panels & the Ventex in the center (white on all Revs I think) + outer-most panels. But this is just my gut feeling & I have no physics formulas handy to back that up Alfred, a top-notch Rev-flyer in my local area, once commented that I "lucked out" after he flew my 1.5SLE because all the other 1.5SLEs (incl. his) were making noise (due to the wind-speed @ that given moment) while mine was silent. His opnion was that my sail was perfectly tunned. Was this because of the bungi-chord tightness, the panel construction, slight bridle difference, etc. - who knows. But the point is several Revs, identical in materials performed differently. Now take our two SULs, which have their various fabrics in different places. I'm sure there will be a difference in flight characteristic. Wether the difference is worth talking (or writing) about is another story all together... *I-ka-rex, pronounced like I-ka-rus: "But the young Icarus, overwhelmed by the thrill of flying, did not heed his father's warning, and flew too close to the sun whereupon the wax in his wings melted and he fell into the sea."

Oh, that's not good...! Details, we need more details, please! What is it exactly that put you off with the Airbow? What, ah, tricks did you try to pull off with it? Are the Revs better in every way, or just where it counts for you & your flying style? Hey, Aiyana, I was looking forward to a reply from you.... You have important info here and may end up saving me a whole heap of cash, but I'd really appreciate a bit more detail on your findings - no matter how limited your airtime with the Airbow may have been... Thx,

Hi, Progcraft! But of course, post at will! I however would again like to point out that I cannot guarantee that my post is error-free! Ditto for my table... I will immediately (try to) mail it to you via the forum's email entry - assuming that works. If not, please PM me your email address, thx. greetz

yes, some sweet stuff! Look here for interesting info in English! Also, Ockert's Website (the German Co. responsible for the Climax line.) Here's even a direct link to your beloved red Protec line

Doug, you won't need a ruler - either all panels are made up of rectangles or some are perfect squares. Thx, btw (even if you are making fun of me )

I'm not %100 certain how to read your question but I was planning to* post a table I created for myself that shows the various properties of available kite fabrics (*Except that I couldn't upload load the little bugger - and to paraphrase MasterOForums John, the forum's quite fussy about what it uploads....) What I can say (& maybe accidentaly answer your question ) is that each fabric has different properties that affect its weight, strength, stretch & longevity. In a nutshell: Icarex PC-31 Polyester weighs 31g/m2, uses 10x10mm, double-threaded ("rip-stop") stitching, is only coated on one side. These properties in turn give Icarex it's character which is a low-strech material that withstands air/H2O permeability very well, but given the large (10mm) thread spacing is (relatively) prone to tearing. Ventex Polyester weighs 34,5g/m2, uses an 18x9mm stitch pattern (only doubled on the long sides), is only coated on one side. Ventex is even more prone to tearing than Icarex, is more permeable (appearantly their coating is not as effective as Icarex) and (somehow) stretches even less than Icarex. Chikara Nylon weighs 41.2 g/m2 in part due to its closely-spaced, 5x5mm double-stitch pattern and the fact that it is coated on both sides. Chikara is therefore highly tear-resistant & permeability is very, very low! On the other hand, nylon stretches a good deal more than poly (2x more than Ventex). Chikara is hence an ideal fabric for power kites where streching's actually a good thing where wind-gusts are a way of life, not to mention the ability to shed H2O all the better! Icarex & Ventex are crisp, accurate, light fabrics ideal for framed sport-kites in professional kite-flyer hands (those that tend to avoid trees, unplanned groundwork, etc.... ) Icarex seems to be a dream-come-true in terms of weight, air -n- tear resistance, however it stretches a lot more than Ventex, not to mention costs (or costed) twice as much. Ventex seems to be the fabric of choice if the designer wants to limit stretch (& save a few bucks while they're at it). Given the above, I will make the assumption that while the designers @Revolution normally use Ventex, they may have chosen to work with Icarex on the SUL - on the panels where stretch is less critical & hence shaved an extra gram off the weight... Or maybe they wanted those panels to stretch a little to help cope with the upper wind-range, or maybe they ran out of Ventex when they produced my SUL... (lol, which is why my question still stands!!!) Last but not least, I'm not a kite designer, I don't have a fabric fetish & 97.3% of the info posted above was (un-scientifically) extrapolated from a single article in the Apr/May '99 issue of Kite Passion, so I will only take credit for the mistakes cu,

ROFL! Well Penny, please go ahead and send me all of your Revs & in turn, I'll send you a whole bunch of objects that fly... (you may need a hurricane to get some of 'em to fly, but they will all fly).... The difference between a Rev & a knock-off that doesn't even come close to the "feel" of a Rev is in the construction details & materials selected! Details such as tensile strength, permeability & flutter effect... And of course, lots of trial & error But go on an' run away, go fly your multi-million dollar Rev (factor in the R&D that went into the fabric - in which the kiting industry can thank the sailing industry), the spars (NASA, anyone?) & even the bleedin' bridles that now a days are designed using a computer & a lot of chaos-theory-based algorithms ( ) Yes, preserve your innocence & run away, while you still can

Hi2all, it's me again... I noticed that both the 1.5SLE & SS are made with Ventex (Toray) ripstop while the SUL (or at least mine) is a combo of Ventex for the vertical color sections & Icarex for the outer & central sections (black, in my case). In other words, I have the Rasberry-Blue-Black combo & the black is in Icarex while the blue & Rasberry is in Ventex. I bought it ~ a month ago, but there is no telling how old (model year) it really is & those colors have been around since 2000-2001 (& no, this one doesn't have mylar - which is a good thing, for an SUL!).... Can anyone w/an SUL check to see if they have the same mix of sail materials please? For reference, Ventex are rectangles (19x8mm) with double-stitching along the longer side only & Icarex are 10mm squares. While I'm at it, Chikara nylon has 5mm squares. (Regarding Icarex, hell if I know how to tell the difference between P-31 (31G/M2), P-38 (38g/M2) & PC-31 (strength of P-38 @31g/M2)... Edit: My bad, the SUL is a mix of Ventex & Icarex, not Chikara! I caught this when I inspected one of my Flexfoil Stackers. 10mm squares look small - that is, until you compare them to 5mm, lol! None the less, my question still stands - are all SUL mad up of this interesting mix...? Thx & sorry for the foulup!

"Back Tracker - Sportwing by Revolution" says the ad on the last page of the Fall 1994 issue of American Kite. I was looking through my kite mags for an article describing the various sail materials when I came across this Revolution ad. Looks to me like the forerunner of the EXP as the Rev I & II were already available @ that time. 65", 6.2Oz. A little small to be an EXP, no? Which brings to mind another question of mine... who's been flying Revs the longest (in this forum)? Enquiring minds want to know...

Wow, that's perfect - thx for the link Like I mentioned above, I thought it was odd that I got a pair of indoors with my 1.5 SUL - but in the meantime, I've got used to them. Note that the indoor handles are straighter than he rest (~160deg), with the std being around 145deg. Wonder how much of an effect the angle has... Rev I SUL handles...? Darn, that's a lot of handles, lol! Can they all be that radically different? @ $30-45 a pair, that could turn into an expensive collection... Thx again!

Here's one more, the Synergy Deca. It's a model that's no longer in *mass* prodution but appearantly Guildworks still makes them on a custom basis. Anyone ever seen one of these close up? Obviously no competition to Rev (otherwise they would still be in production...). cu,

Hey, Jason, thx for the link I only wish (the Marina Green) was in std (mpeg 2, mpeg 4) formats 'cause I hate RealOne argh... But a great site & I will have a look at all of 'em! (Say... ain't Internet & broadband great? My ISP just decided to bump us up from 600Kbps to 1Mbps - for free )

Thx for the info, Doug Yeah, I though there was a difference between indoor & extended-outdoor handles! What's the ext. made out of (also steel like the std, or is it mixed with carbon-wrap...?) I'd love to see that pic if you come across it please P.S. This might be the time to point out that while Rev-Tech is only improving, their website is seriously out of date, not to mention could support a lot more info on their products... sniff

Gee, that's pretty daring of you, Doug...! But I guess I would also use my SS lines (150Lb) for two. I have ~450LB Dyneema lines for my flexi-stack - but damned if I've seen anything thicker (& heavier) out on the flying field The lines are useless in <20mph winds, lol!

Oh, yeah... I see the light! Ok, fare enough - I can appreciate the beauty in it (but just can't afford it & I mean I've already dropped a fare amount of $$$ into this sport... ) Thx for the input - who knows, maybe some day I'll go for it! It's gotta be a stack of five, though (something I picked up from the Japanese culture )

Hi2all! As you can see from my sig, I own three quads - all Revs. That's most likely because Revolution started Quad Fever & is still leading the field today! When I bought my first serious kite(s), Peter Powell Rainbows, there were only a few serious kite manufacturers - each one leading their field, just like Revolution has (& still is) w/quad-stunt-kiting. And while I was flying my Flexies (~'84), the Hawaiin was the delta back in those days. It is however now practically impossible to list all deltas that hit the market in the last two decades - and thus, I can imagine that more & more quad stunt-kites are & will be hitting the market in the near future. Hence, my interest in compiling a list of all existing Quads & eventually with your help, some info behind each one & your own experiences with them! -> Revolutions - no intro necessary & they are nicely described in Jason Paul's post -> Invento-HQ Kites: M-Quad & Hypnotic-Quad -> Kites Spit Fire: Vision / Sub-Vision: german & English info -> Wolfgang Siebert's Kamikase Butterfly -> Benson (Wardly) Airbow -> New Tech Kites: Spirit Quad(s) -> SkyDancers "Inter Active" custom quads Well, that's about all I can think of off the top, but certainly not a comprehensive listing, by any means: that's what I'm hoping to accomplish with your help Please feel free to post links+info to other Quads as well as to offer your own personal experiences with any Quad!

"I see!", said the blind kite-flyer... Yeah, I'll buy that - thx John (& Penny too!)

Since I've been here, I've come to the conclusion that almost every member flys Revs in stacks(!) Once I get over the cost of making a [Rev] stack, I have to ask myself what it is that makes Rev stacks so exciting for you all? Don't get me wrong - if I had 3~6 Revs laying around you can be sure as hell that I'd stack 'em too... ...but I don't have 3~6 Revs (& 300LB Laser) laying around & the cost associated with a 3~6 Rev stack is brutal! I own Flexifoil Stackers & when I want to do that traction thang, the flexis do it for me quite nicely If crowd-control (as in building a crowd ) is your aim, than my former Peter Powell Rainbow "six-pack" with their incredibly long tails did the job & I guess that's what Prism's gone & done again with their Micron & Nexus & other stackable deltas. So, @ $170~E220 a pop, please tell me why you stack Revs: what am I missing here? Thx (& by all means... stack 'em if you got 'em )

Oh, that's not good...! Details, we need more details, please! What is it exactly that put you off with the Airbow? What, ah, tricks did you try to pull off with it? Are the Revs better in every way, or just where it counts for you & your flying style? I'm also keeping in mind the Airbow was designed to be a sort of hybrid quad that responds (to some extent) to dual-line input & not so much as a direct competitor to Rev (like Invento tried w/their M-Quads & more or less failed). If this is a good thing, I dunno... The devil is in the detail...

Whaaat? 90lb, indoors? I would have thought that to be overkill & added weight... Btw, Thx for this (& all of your replies) Penny