Premier Widow

[Dean750]

I don't know the names of the different lines and such. But the bridle I'm refering to has a line that runs from the upper LE fitting to the lower LE fitting and then a line that goes from the center T to the outter line. The tow point is on the inner line from the center T.

So the adjustments to pull the nose in or push it out are on the LE part of the bridle while the turn rate is adjusted on the inner line. If it loads in heres a pic of my old MEFM which uses this bridle.

Dean

[JoneZ]

I don't know the names of the different lines and such. But the bridle I'm refering to has a line that runs from the upper LE fitting to the lower LE fitting and then a line that goes from the center T to the outter line. The tow point is on the inner line from the center T.

So the adjustments to pull the nose in or push it out are on the LE part of the bridle while the turn rate is adjusted on the inner line. If it loads in heres a pic of my old MEFM which uses this bridle.

Dean

Right. Thats what I've called a dynamic bridle. I had messed around with that setup a little, but never had any success. I was thinking about writing someone at Premier, seeing if anyone has a dynamis setup measurement. Doubt it though.

~Jon

[JoneZ]

Jon,

very glad you figured out yours was one of the original ones. Mine is stock except for removing the upper inserts, removing the weight and raising the tow point via the knots. Very nice kite. I have so much time on this thing. Its been my go to kite for a long time. Not flying it these days, got some new toys, but I think its a great value. Wonderful yo yo trainer. Why not shoot some vid and show us your Widow in action?

I've got a couple n00b vids if you check my profile. They're pretty old, and I've progressed much since getting the Widow.

Im curious, what have your experiences been with the Widow. Pros, Cons, mods, etc...?

Also, in reference to the above topic, have you toyed around with an alternate bridle setup like a dynamic/turbo bridle, or cross active, etc...?

-cheers m8

~Jon

[DaveH]

Jon,

I havent done much other than take out the inserts and the weight. The thing flew pretty well for me once i did that. Check out this vid, its the first I did with the kite after making those changes. Good representation of what the kite was willing to do for me..

http://www.vimeo.com/4561780

[JoneZ]

Thats a great vid m8. I love to see the widow in action. It gives me a frame of mind on what the kite can do, and how it handles. I am now feeling that my inputs are still a bit to harsh, by looking at the fluidity of your tricks. I need to learn how to tone down my spank and yank mentality. Im learning slowly, but I always end up getting ahead of myself in that dept. With me, its all winding down to holding fades, snap stalls, and side slides. The more I practice those it seems, the more fluent I become with my Kite.

I also think I could use another weekend out at delta park with John B. I tend to learn better with an instructor, rather then videos. I mean, Randy G's vids are great, but its just not the same -- bringing my Archos out into the field, and squinting to watch these vids on a 3.5" screen, then trying to tackle them with no input as to what I am doing right/wrong.

Make some more videos with the widow bro. You're an excellent Pilot.

Oh, if you feel ambitious, try installing a leech line in the widow. Quiets her down, and makes her handle a bit better. I also replaced the nock ferrules with hollow core ferrules. Less weight concentrated at the wingtips.

-cheers

~Jon

[DaveH]

Thanks, Jon!

I think more time with John B is definitely in order. He's a great dual line flyer. I agree, time with another flyer is far better than any tutorials.

Curious about your leech line... In tons of hours my Widow has never made a sound. I assumed it already had one.... Also, mine has great forward drive. Much more than my other French kites. It works so well, I feel smart thing is to not mess with it. My Nirvana is loud when the widn is up, like the leech line is loose. Is your Widow loud?

[JoneZ]

My Widow was SO loud before I put a leech line in it. anything above 8Mph and is was like a straight pipe engine.

The forward drive is great on her though. In high wind she didn't perform well at all before the leech line was installed. I just found a another older video pre-leech line, I'll try and get it uploaded so you can hear how loud it was.

Im interested in your bridle. What knot on the upper LE do you larkshead to. I like the 2nd knot, except for the nose wanting to rock back if I have to pump the kite. I find that even on the 4th knot (farthest away from the nose) theres still rocking when I pump in light wind, which I find odd (Just on tests, I never use that knot in light winds. Although its easier to run 360's with it on the 4th).

After watching your vid, I went out today -- a little inspired -- and flew great (was listening to some Mogwai -- great band). I actually pulled off 1 rung of a jacobs ladder. And it wasnt by accident. lol

I need to get my camera out there again sometime and shoot some video.

Im interested in your bridle measurements (Im assuming you're on a 3 point bridle). could I ask you what your measurements are on all the legs? I know thats kind of a pain, but I'd like to compare.

cheers m8.

~Jon

[DaveH]

No problem, Jon. I'll have to dig it out, as I'm flying the Deep Space mostly these days. I do know this: I haven't touched the bridle since I got the kite, other than to put it on the top knot, which would raise the tow point as high as it could go using the knots. Hope that makes some kind of sense. So other than putting it on the shortest knot, I left it completely stock.

I found over time I felt the kite was too pitchy and didn't want to flat spin the way other kites would. I mean, I could flat spin it, BS cascades, etc, but it wanted to flip out of the move more readily than other kites, like my Nirvana or Exile. I sort of felt the kite was designed to allow beginners easy access to yo yos, and therefore was a bit unstable in flat spin moves. I prefer the yo yo ( within reason) to come from technique, rather than ultimate pitchiness. This is one of the reasons I stopped flying it. That, and the fact that I was tired of looking at it.... I still think its one of the best values in kiting. Better than the E3 ( in stock form). I prefer the flying qualities of the SF series, but stuff falls off of them.. So for me the Widos is the best of the bunch in this price point. Now, shorten the outhauls of the E3 and you have a new winner!

[JoneZ]

I noticed the same thing when practicing axles and 540's. I often snag my line on a tip while pulling off multiple axles, and single slot machines. Im giving enough slack, its just the way it wants to flatspin. I have to give more slack than I feel necessary for a good recovery some of the time.

thanks for grabbing those measurements

~Jon

[JoneZ]

Heres that video I mentioned. Shes a loud girl

http://vimeo.com/5089065

[JoneZ]

PS. When u headin back up to Portland?

Not sure when I'll be back up. Are you going to the Lincoln City Summer Festival? June 27 and 28th I think.

<-- Mr. Short Term Memory it seems. lol

I WISH I could go to that festival, but my wedding is the very next weekend. Things are already pretty crazy around here, so I can't see them getting any easier in the coming weeks. Sucks that I can't go,, I hear Lam Hoac is going to be there doing a seminar. =\

Damn wedding getting in the way...... KIDDING!!!!! hehe

~Jon

[DaveH]

Jon,

mine was never loud like that. I'm pretty sure it came with a leech line. Could be they just forgot to put it into yours..

[JoneZ]

Hey Dave. Heres a vid I just made.

http://vimeo.com/5293405/

Just toolin around my field. Nothin special, but I thought I'd make an updated vid.

Cheers.

~Jon

[mattiefrank]

AHH,THAT WAS NICE.you have a good touch.

I still get nervous that close to the ground.

that encourages me to keep at it.your good, nice vid.

[JoneZ]

AHH,THAT WAS NICE.you have a good touch.

I still get nervous that close to the ground.

that encourages me to keep at it.your good, nice vid.

Thanks equally for the encouragement m8. Appreciate it.

~Jon

[merrik]

Hi Folks.

I have been following this thread with interest as i bought a Widow earlier this year as my first trick kite.

I too had a hellishly noisy one till i took the advice here and fitted a leech line. Now the Widow is as quiet as my partners Wolf

It certainly changed the character of the kite in that what i assume to be the tendency to want to over steer has increased. Tight spins seem to erm... over spin?? dunno if that makes sense.

I am therefore wondering if the leech line is too tight. Having never fitted one before or flown a kite with the line added how tight should it be? and should it be fixed on the center spine or fitted so that either side can "equalize". By that i mean i currently have it double larksheaded to the spine so the line is static down each trailing edge. I was contemplating redoing this with just one pass around the spine to allow the tension on either side to balance out.

Will post more soon when i have a bit more time in the air under my belt!

Great thread guys! Nice to see a kite like the Widow being enjoyed and tinkered with for a change!

Cheers

[JoneZ]

Hey Merrick.

In regards to your question about the leech line:

It should be just tight enough as to not distort the shape of the sail. If you see your sail starting to wrinkle at the wingtip, then its too tight (if that makes sense).

Also, just run the leech line as a straight pass through the left and right trailing edge. Don't larkshead it to the spine. It should be free flowing so you can equalize the tension from right to left T.E.

Also, when I installed my leech line, I had to re-learn to fly the kite. It certainly does change the flight characteristics. Since the leech line cuts the flapping of the trailing edge, there is no more energy dissipation -- which means that the sail is using the winds full potential -- that also means that turns will be more touchy on her.

Just make smaller inputs in regards to turning and spinning. Try push turns and push spins as well (ie: throwing out your arm to turn/spin, instead of pulling it in). They give you the ability to "Lock" your exit. So for example, when you throw your left arm out to initiate a right 45 degree turn,, once the 45 degree turn is achieved, with a quick motion, pull your left arm back level with your right arm and "lock it in". Experiment with this, its a lot of fun. Sometimes you may have to give a micron of slack with the right as your "locking", but only momentarily (and I mean MICRON).

So in short, smaller inputs are key, and the leech line should be tight, but not so tight that it distorts the natural shape of the sail.

Hope that helps m8.

Good Winds

~Jon

[JoneZ]

On an afternote,, did you break out those inserts on the upper LE APA fittings? That will also cut down on the oversteer.

One more thing I did, was replace the nock end ferrules (which were solid core) with hollow core ferrules. That lessened the weight at the wingtips by 2 grams per side -- drastically decreased the oversteer.

As of now, I can't notice any oversteer on my Widow with the mods I've done to her. Flies like a dream.

smaller, less aggressive, less yank n' spank inputs are key...

[JoneZ]

OK.

There was one final modification to the Widow that I thought would improve the kites precision performance, as well as allow it to fly in even lighter winds.

That was to remove the extension ferrule at the base of the spine, and replace it with a hollow core ferrule.

I removed the solid core ferrule, and it weigh ed at 7 grams. I had some hollow carbon spars lying around that happened to be the same width as the ferrule I removed, so I cut one to fit (weighed in at 2 3/4 grams) and installed it on the spine.

I just got back from my field, and she flew great! The wind conditions were ideal for what I was trying to achieve here. 1-4Mph winds. I strapped on my lightweight bridle (80# poly braided spectra), and my 80ft 50# lines, set her in a flare position, drew the lines up and pulled a rising fade in 2Mph winds! lol Just a simple walk back was all it took.

1Mph winds and I was still struggling backwards, but 2Mph seems to be the magic number for my Widow now.

I even pulled off 2 rungs of a Jacobs Ladder (which I've never accomplished before)!! Roll-ups were not affected -- I pulled a multi yoyo with ease. I was able to lock in 90degree turns with no wobble (which I experienced before when locking the turn in, no matter how hard or gentle I was).

I highly recommend this upgrade. Its cheap, and relatively easy to accomplish.

Mark the ferules position with a paint marker first and foremost, so you'll know how far to insert the new one once you make it.

Then just heat up the last 2" of the spine (ferrule sits in about 2") with a lighter (be sure to only use the blue flame to heat), while holding the ferrule with a pair of pliers.

Gently twist the ferrule while holding onto the spine. Do this a number of times (heat, then twist), as you don't want to overheat that spar and distort it.

Be patient and it will eventually come free. (I've also heard of people sticking spars in boiling water to remove a ferrule, but I've never tried it).

Once the ferrule is free, just cut your replacement to fit, mark the insertion threshold, add some crazy glue and insert it into the spine and hold for 1 minute.

Let it sit for a couple hours to really adhere and cure to each other, and ur done.

Good Winds!

~Jon

[JoneZ]

All the Modifications I've made to the Widow are scattered throughout this thread, but I wanted to just sum up what I've done, so you all can read it in one place (but do read the entire thread if you are thinking of tackling these Mods for your Widow):

-Removed the tail weight (for weight reduction).

-Broke out the Inserts in the upper leading edge APA fittings (newer models don't have these inserts, only older models are affected.) [to reduce oversteer].

-Stretched out the factory bridle (to correct flight characteristics).

-Made a lightweight bridle from 80# polyester braided spectra (for weight reduction).

-Installed a leech line along the trailing edge (to correct flight characteristics).

-Replaced the P300 lower spreaders with P200 skyshark spars. Check your leading edges as well, if they are P300 they can be swapped out for P200's with no sacrifice to rigidity or strength (for weight reduction).

-Replaced the solid core nock end ferrules with hollow cored ferrules (to reduce oversteer/weight reduction).

-Replaced the solid core ferrule at the base of the spine with a hollow core ferrule (to eliminate oversteer/weight reduction).

All these mods combined (minus the lightweight bridle) should take a couple days to complete (if that), but I tell you, it is worth every minute you put into it. Add another couple hours and you've got a lightweight bridle too.

-cheers Kitelife.

~Jon