Quad Stacks

[Jeepster]

I've been playing around with building and flying half size (Half-Pint) rev-like kites. The intention was to learn to build kites and then to assemble six half-pints into a linear stack. Along the way, I was distracted by the way the Rev progressive stack looks and flies. So, I used the half-pint as the first kite and then added two more kites that were progressively larger ... ending up with the last kite slightly smaller than a REV II.

The first thing I learned was that building kites is a labor of love. I can't figure out how Revolution makes any money selling their kites at today's prices. Our kite bags would be much smaller if we had to make own kites.

I also learned that a three kite progressive stack flies better than a linear stack. In hind sight, that kind of makes sense ... the second and third kites in progressive have a larger opportunity to grab more wind. But, I also found out that a progressive stack seems to adopt the personality of the largest kite. The half-pint has been described as a bumblebee on amphetamines ... that's a perfect description. A linear stack of half-pints slows down a little, but is still very fast ... you have to pay attention!!! My half-pint progressive stack is much calmer ... more like the personality of a REV II. That was a total surprise to me. I've flown two different REV progressive stacks and now realize that they flew more like the REV 1 or REV 1.5 and not at all like the REV II which is the smallest kite in that stack.

So, my question is simple ... am I the last person in the kiting community to learn about the progressive stack flying like the largest kite in the stack? And, do dual line progressive stacks fly the same way? Also, any other info on progressives would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Tom

[RescueRev]

I've been playing around with building and flying half size (Half-Pint) rev-like kites. The intention was to learn to build kites and then to assemble six half-pints into a linear stack. Along the way, I was distracted by the way the Rev progressive stack looks and flies. So, I used the half-pint as the first kite and then added two more kites that were progressively larger ... ending up with the last kite slightly smaller than a REV II.

The first thing I learned was that building kites is a labor of love. I can't figure out how Revolution makes any money selling their kites at today's prices. Our kite bags would be much smaller if we had to make own kites.

I also learned that a three kite progressive stack flies better than a linear stack. In hind sight, that kind of makes sense ... the second and third kites in progressive have a larger opportunity to grab more wind. But, I also found out that a progressive stack seems to adopt the personality of the largest kite. The half-pint has been described as a bumblebee on amphetamines ... that's a perfect description. A linear stack of half-pints slows down a little, but is still very fast ... you have to pay attention!!! My half-pint progressive stack is much calmer ... more like the personality of a REV II. That was a total surprise to me. I've flown two different REV progressive stacks and now realize that they flew more like the REV 1 or REV 1.5 and not at all like the REV II which is the smallest kite in that stack.

So, my question is simple ... am I the last person in the kiting community to learn about the progressive stack flying like the largest kite in the stack? And, do dual line progressive stacks fly the same way? Also, any other info on progressives would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Tom

I have a double progressive stack and It flies like the back two Rev I's. It can pull like a truck. I started out trying to fly it with a lot of brake because I didn't want it to get away from me. I now believe that is the wrong thing to do. If you pull the leading edge in it allows the wind to sheet of the back of the kite better reducing the pull of the kite. I was also using 15" handles but I plan on using 13" handles the next time I fly the stack. I know you fly a stack by the back kite but control it buy the front kite. Thus the 15" handles can put in to much control to the Rev II making the stack react faster then I would like. I was told to try 13" handles to slow down the reaction of the stack. I don't know what size handles you are using so if you want to slow the stack down try shorter handles. I hope this helps.

RescueRev

[Jeepster]

I have a double progressive stack and It flies like the back two Rev I's. It can pull like a truck. I started out trying to fly it with a lot of brake because I didn't want it to get away from me. I now believe that is the wrong thing to do. If you pull the leading edge in it allows the wind to sheet of the back of the kite better reducing the pull of the kite. I was also using 15" handles but I plan on using 13" handles the next time I fly the stack. I know you fly a stack by the back kite but control it buy the front kite. Thus the 15" handles can put in to much control to the Rev II making the stack react faster then I would like. I was told to try 13" handles to slow down the reaction of the stack. I don't know what size handles you are using so if you want to slow the stack down try shorter handles. I hope this helps.

RescueRev

Thanks for the input.

I spent three days at Grand Haven picking Lee Sedgwick's brain about stacks. One point he made repetitively was to greatly reduce the brake to reduce the pull on a stack. I've been flying my small progressive and a friend's REV progressive with two to three inches less brake than I use for a single kite. It radically reduces the pull, and yet, doesn't speed up the stack like it does a single Rev.

A set of small handles is on my to-do list. The smallest kite in the stack is based on several small kites I've built to play around with as singles. Using 13 inch handles with a kite that small is like using 25 inch handles with a 1.5 Rev ... small movements are definitely the order of the day.

IKE had a club fly last weekend and we had a chance to fly the Half-Pint progressive alongside a standard Rev progressive. I know it doesn't look like it, but both stacks really are equal distance from the camera. The total sail area of the Half-Pint progressive is less than a 1.5 Rev kite ... thus, it doesn't pull excessively even in high winds. I've flown it in 20 plus mph winds and that's when gusts start to pull you around a little.

Cheers,

Tom

[ant man]

that looks cool .. i like it

[Jeepster]

that looks cool .. i like it

Ant,

Thanks for the compliment.

Tom

[Jeepster]

We drove up to Michigan for a vacation this last week. With several hours behind the wheel, I spent the time thinking about why a progressive stack might fly like the last kite in line.

Look at the picture below ... all stack lines were tight. It's one of those "hit yourself on the head" kind of obvious answers. For a specific handle angle, the smallest kite will react more than the largest kite will. Thus, the smallest kite will almost stall during large inputs, while the largest kite will simply react appropriately.

Cheers,

Tom

[Jd Fabich]

Sweet looking stack!

[John Barresi]

Semi-related discussion, just cross-linking.

http://www.revkites.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=1528

[ant man]

the best way to see if your stack is where it should be is to set it up and once its all set up go to the last kite and grab it by the down spars.. lift it up to where all 3 kites are off the ground.. at this point youll be able to see the lines that are not even with all the others.. if that is the case.. i found this method to help me tune all my stacks and make them fly to where i want them to be.. the hardest one i made was the blast 3 pack and sometimes i have to re tune that one with the line stretch.. this can also happen with newer stack lines .. keep an eye on that as well

[Jeepster]

the best way to see if your stack is where it should be is to set it up and once its all set up go to the last kite and grab it by the down spars.. lift it up to where all 3 kites are off the ground.. at this point youll be able to see the lines that are not even with all the others.. if that is the case.. i found this method to help me tune all my stacks and make them fly to where i want them to be.. the hardest one i made was the blast 3 pack and sometimes i have to re tune that one with the line stretch.. this can also happen with newer stack lines .. keep an eye on that as well

Hey Ant,

Looks like I didn't explain the picture well enough, so let me try it with sketches:

The first sketch shows the red kites in a progressive stack with the lines set appropriately ... all lines even and all lines tight. This is the way my small progressive is configured.

The second sketch shows what the stack looks like if you give it enough back handle movement to cause the lead (smallest) kite to move to an 80 degree angle. The second kite moves to about 52 degrees of attack angle and the third kite only moves to about 41 degrees of attack angle. Again, all lines remain the same length for this sketch.

Thus, the lead kite can be stalled out completely and the last kite is still at a reasonable angle of attack. This is why I believe that a progressive stack flies more like the last (largest) kite in a stack than the other two smaller kites.

This phenomenon will not show up in a linear stack because the kites are all the same verical size ... thus, they stay parallel to each for all handle inputs.

Does this clear up the point I tried to make???

Cheers,

Tom

[Choccy]

the hardest one i made was the blast 3 pack and sometimes i have to re tune that one with the line stretch.. this can also happen with newer stack lines .. keep an eye on that as well

Hi all

is it possible a stack being pulled hard can have a stretching effect on the bridle line as well ?

[Jeepster]

Hi all

is it possible a stack being pulled hard can have a stretching effect on the bridle line as well ?

Choccy,

In my case, I'm using a brand name 100 lb test bridle line. Since the last kite is slightly smaller in size than a REV II, it's not large enough to cause an appreciable pull. The stack lines were all made to withing 1/16" (it was raining) of each other. I wouldn't expect enough differential stretch to affect the flight of that small of a progressive.

The major response difference for a progressive is the difference in height of the kites. Any handle movement that will cause a normal response on a Rev 1.5 will over power one of your mini kites. Now imagine your mini stacked with a Rev 1.5 in progressive arrangement. The same handle movement yields the same results ... the Rev 1.5 size kite will have a normal response and the mini will be overpowered (stalled). Thus, for the larger handle inputs, the stack flies off the rear kite and is not affected much by the smaller front kite.

Cheers,

Tom

[tonycarl60]

Sounds like you need vertical bridles on the stack kites so you can adjust the vertical distance of the stack lines for each kite,just an idea.

[Jeepster]

Sounds like you need vertical bridles on the stack kites so you can adjust the vertical distance of the stack lines for each kite,just an idea.

That would work ... make the connection to the second kite equal to the rod height of the first kite, etc. With some tuning, that would force the kites to remain parallel.

The thing is, I really love the way progressive stacks fly. I don't want to change them nor am I complaining about them ... just wanted to understand why they fly like they do. Plus, I was interested in the experience of others.

Most people will tell you that a quad stack backs up with great difficulty, if at all ... Mike Kory was able to back mine around in a circle. Even I can back it up side-to-side and vertically. I'm working on circles, but remember the party trick where you drew a circle by looking into a mirror ... that's how my circles look right now. If you haven't tried a progressive stack, please make the effort ... you'll fall in love.

Thanks for the input.

Cheers,

Tom

[Jeepster]

Hi all

is it possible a stack being pulled hard can have a stretching effect on the bridle line as well ?

Choccy,

In my case, I'm using a brand name 100 lb test bridle line. Since the last kite is slightly smaller in size than a REV II, it's not large enough to cause an appreciable pull. The stack lines were all made to withing 1/16" (it was raining) of each other. I wouldn't expect enough differential stretch to affect the flight of that small of a progressive.

...

Cheers,

Tom

Although Choccy and I were talking about a differential stretch during flying, I found out something interesting when building a new set of stack lines for a six-kite stack.

When I tied the stack lines for my three-kite progressive, I had to retie about half the stack lines to get them within 1/16 of an inch of each other. Even with a bridle board and tying every knot exactly the same way, I still would end up with unacceptable deviations in length.

Before I started on the 30 stack lines that the new stack needs, I ran a test on three different 50 lengths of HiTech bridle line. The average stretch was 2%!!! Thus on a 60 inch stack line, it would take an initial set of 1.2 inches. No wonder I was chasing my tail the last time!!!

After stretching the bridle line, I tied 30 stack lines in record time with only two reties ... and those two were only off by a little over 1/16 inch.

Although I only tested HiTech bridle line, I'm sure any bridle line with a spectra core and a polyester coating will have an initial stretch. You might try pre-stretching your bridle line before you tie your next bridle and see if it doesn't help.

Cheers,

Tom

[Guru4tru]

Hey Choccy & Tom!!!

This is off subject, but seeing how you two are here I want to mention that I "NOW" consider myself a "REV. FLYER"! A good rev. flyer...no, you wouldn't want me on your team yet...but I'm flying it!

Just spent the last 4 hours flying (my wife's) Rev. in upside hovers!!! And I can do it... (a decent wind helps too)...also found some muscles in my back I hadn't used in awhile.

And I want to give both of you a very special "THANK YOU!!"

Tom for all the field note and directions I've been using and Choccy for turning me on...(I better rephrase that)...and to Choccy for getting me interested in Revs. in the first place!

Keep It Up!

Duane