buying 2 new Rev kites, need advice

[4sp]

I'm about to buy 2 Revs (one for me, one for my girlfriend). All we have flown is a basic stunt kite. One kite will be a 1.5m with a 3 wrap frame (older model at clearance price). For the other I have more options, the other kite could be a 1.5 , or a custom 1.5 that is built with Icarex fabric. However the colors are more limited with the 1.5 custom Icarex, then the standard 1.5. How much of a difference is there between the 2 fabrics? As a new flyer would I know or care? I'm not so picky about colors, but I can't figure out which way to go-better material with a color that isn't my top choice, or top color choice in standard material...Could consider the 1.5B, but if I can get a custom 1.5 with Icarex (only $20 more then standard 1.5), is there much advantage to the 1.5B (I know the fabric layout may be 'better')

I'm trying to figure out an 'optimal' combination of frames to cover all bases. Around where I live the winds are generally light(guessing 3-10 mph range), but I would like to be able to fly when we are in a place with higher winds. I would like to get a frame combo that will allow us to have at least one kite that will fly in the lowest of winds (complete 2 wrap frame?) one kite combo that would fly in the highest winds (20+ mph), and 2 kites that would fly at the same time in moderate winds.

So maybe I will get one kite with a 2-wrap frame, the other with a 3 wrap frame. And I think I get an extra leading edge with the 1.5, so maybe that would be a 3 wrap or SLE. I could add that LE to the 2-wrap frame when we are in higher winds (10-20 mph range). Or should I get both with 3 wraps, or upgrade to the race rods in one kite? I'm probably over thinking this, so any advice would be great!

I could also get an SUL, but it sounds like the heavier leading edge material in the standard kite would hold up better if there is lots of crashing, or LE rod failure. Leaning to non-SUL sail for perceived durability advantages...(at least I have made one decision!)

Thanks in advance,

Nat

[Wayne Dowler]

Well now!! First, let's say welcome to "The Darkside" to you!! So 1 is a 1.5 with a 3 wrap frame. What to go with it? I'd suggest a "B" in the same sail! I'm guessing that it's a full sail! The "B" comes with 2 complete frames that you can double up for higher winds! It will fly in the lower winds with the lighter frame, 2 wrap, fly in the same winds, 3 wrap, and handle high winds, both LEs!!! Both 3 wrap frames are very sturdy and should handle all of your learning adventures!! IMHO!!! Good luck on your decision, there is no wrong choice, just many choices!!! I'm sure others will chime in!!

[Spence Watson]

I'm about to buy 2 Revs (one for me, one for my girlfriend). All we have flown is a basic stunt kite. One kite will be a 1.5m with a 3 wrap frame (older model at clearance price). For the other I have more options, the other kite could be a 1.5 , or a custom 1.5 that is built with Icarex fabric. However the colors are more limited with the 1.5 custom Icarex, then the standard 1.5. How much of a difference is there between the 2 fabrics? As a new flyer would I know or care? I'm not so picky about colors, but I can't figure out which way to go-better material with a color that isn't my top choice, or top color choice in standard material...Could consider the 1.5B, but if I can get a custom 1.5 with Icarex (only $20 more then standard 1.5), is there much advantage to the 1.5B (I know the fabric layout may be 'better')

I'm trying to figure out an 'optimal' combination of frames to cover all bases. Around where I live the winds are generally light(guessing 3-10 mph range), but I would like to be able to fly when we are in a place with higher winds. I would like to get a frame combo that will allow us to have at least one kite that will fly in the lowest of winds (complete 2 wrap frame?) one kite combo that would fly in the highest winds (20+ mph), and 2 kites that would fly at the same time in moderate winds.

So maybe I will get one kite with a 2-wrap frame, the other with a 3 wrap frame. And I think I get an extra leading edge with the 1.5, so maybe that would be a 3 wrap or SLE. I could add that LE to the 2-wrap frame when we are in higher winds (10-20 mph range). Or should I get both with 3 wraps, or upgrade to the race rods in one kite? I'm probably over thinking this, so any advice would be great!

I could also get an SUL, but it sounds like the heavier leading edge material in the standard kite would hold up better if there is lots of crashing, or LE rod failure. Leaning to non-SUL sail for perceived durability advantages...(at least I have made one decision!)

Thanks in advance,

Nat

Hello Nat,

I am not very well educated when it comes to fabrics, but from what I understand, the main benefit to using Icarex is that it does not stretch as much. This allows for a longer life of the kite because it will be less likely that the sail stretches to become too large for it's frame. Not something that happens very often, but it is a bit of a problem with the Rev Indoor in particular. Any kite makers, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

The 1.5JB, as you mentioned uses better material, and the sail design gives a bit of an edge in performance. If you are buying the kite only, then that is pretty much the main benefit. The B-Series Package on the other hand comes with handles + pigtails, training DVD's by JB, and two frame sets. These are things that are very beneficial.

To be able to cover all bases, I would suggest having a set of Race Rods, 3-wrap rods, and 4-wrap rods for both you and your girlfriend, as well as a full-sail, and full-vented kite. The Race Rods are great light wind rods, and are fairly strong, so they can handle a gust. I prefer these to 2 wrap rods because of their added strength, and because of the flight characteristics it presents with the difference in flex. 3 wrap rods would be for moderate winds, and 4 wrap rods for heavy winds. Once the wind gets above around 15mph, a full sail may be a bit much to handle, so a full vent would be very helpful.

If you want to cut costs a bit, you could do without the 4 wrap rods. I never use them in my full-sail because, when it gets to that point, I might as well put up the full-vent. Also, if the wind gets high enough to warrant using 4 wrap in the full-sail you can compensate by putting the 3-wrap and Race Rods in together.

Per your thoughts on the SLE, I would not recommend it. While the SLE is very strong, and can take a lot of abuse, it is extremely stiff. The problem with this is that the leading edge of a rev should bend just slightly. This allows the belly of the sail to cup more and gain more sail pressure. This leads to smoother and more precise flying characteristics. Some people like the SLE, but it is not something that is very highly regarded among rev flyers.

I agree with your decision about the SUL. The fabric and bridal are lighter and more easily worn down. While this does make the kite easier to fly in light wind, I've never found it necessary. I've flown a full-sail B-series indoors, right out of the package with no modifications.

[Guru4tru]

Hi Nat,

I can't add anything to what's been said, except for my own preferences in colors.

When I was choosing my Revs. the "color" was very important to me. I figured that if I'm going to be looking at this kite in the air for hundreds or thousands of hours I wanted it to be something I "really" liked to look at, so I bought from the Pro Fade Series: http://www.thekiteshoppe.com/products/Revolution-1.5-B-Pro-Fade-Standard-Kite-Only.html

and I bought a Black Rainbow (her name is "Elvira") from http://cgi.ebay.com/Revolution-B-Series-Kite-MID-VENT-CUSTOM-BLK-RAINBOW-/270358132618?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3ef299b78a#ht_1101wt_698

Of course others aren't that concerned about colors, but I could afford to flip out the extra cost to get what I really liked. They have the Masterpiece Series too http://www.revkites.com/main/Masterpiece_Series but I couldn't afford them! heehee!

My wife has a Standard B series in gold & black and she loves the color...but then she's a Pittsburgh Steelers Fan!! heehee!

Keep It Up!

Duane

[4sp]

To be able to cover all bases, I would suggest having a set of Race Rods, 3-wrap rods, and 4-wrap rods for both you and your girlfriend, as well as a full-sail, and full-vented kite. The Race Rods are great light wind rods, and are fairly strong, so they can handle a gust. I prefer these to 2 wrap rods because of their added strength, and because of the flight characteristics it presents with the difference in flex. 3 wrap rods would be for moderate winds, and 4 wrap rods for heavy winds. Once the wind gets above around 15mph, a full sail may be a bit much to handle, so a full vent would be very helpful.

If you want to cut costs a bit, you could do without the 4 wrap rods. I never use them in my full-sail because, when it gets to that point, I might as well put up the full-vent. Also, if the wind gets high enough to warrant using 4 wrap in the full-sail you can compensate by putting the 3-wrap and Race Rods in together.

That sure would cover all the bases, but yeah, cost would be the issue. I'm thinking of full sails for now. How about between these scenarios, which would you pick? I don't have the advantage of a local kite show where I could look before buying.

One 3wrap frame, one 2 wrap frame, and an extra 3 or 4 wrap leading edge

one 3-wrap frame, one race rod frame, and an extra 3 or 4 wrap LE

one 2-wrap frame, one race rod frame, and an extra 3 or 4 wrap LE

two 3-wrap frames with extra 2 wrap LE ... too many choices!

Thanks,

Nat

[Spence Watson]

To be able to cover all bases, I would suggest having a set of Race Rods, 3-wrap rods, and 4-wrap rods for both you and your girlfriend, as well as a full-sail, and full-vented kite. The Race Rods are great light wind rods, and are fairly strong, so they can handle a gust. I prefer these to 2 wrap rods because of their added strength, and because of the flight characteristics it presents with the difference in flex. 3 wrap rods would be for moderate winds, and 4 wrap rods for heavy winds. Once the wind gets above around 15mph, a full sail may be a bit much to handle, so a full vent would be very helpful.

If you want to cut costs a bit, you could do without the 4 wrap rods. I never use them in my full-sail because, when it gets to that point, I might as well put up the full-vent. Also, if the wind gets high enough to warrant using 4 wrap in the full-sail you can compensate by putting the 3-wrap and Race Rods in together.

That sure would cover all the bases, but yeah, cost would be the issue. I'm thinking of full sails for now. How about between these scenarios, which would you pick? I don't have the advantage of a local kite show where I could look before buying.

One 3wrap frame, one 2 wrap frame, and an extra 3 or 4 wrap leading edge

one 3-wrap frame, one race rod frame, and an extra 3 or 4 wrap LE

one 2-wrap frame, one race rod frame, and an extra 3 or 4 wrap LE

two 3-wrap frames with extra 2 wrap LE ... too many choices!

Thanks,

Nat

One thing that I would want to note is that if you and your girlfriend get to the point where you are able to fly together, and actually share the same air space, you will want the kites to be set up the same. This way they fly near the same speed, and have similar characteristics. If I was looking to set up a pair with a low budget, I would go with two full sail kites, two sets of race rods, and two sets of 3 wrap rods. If you are really terribly tight on money, you could substitute the race rods with 2 wrap rods, but I think the wider wind range and the characteristics presented by the race rods are worth the extra cost.

In my bag, the set up that gets use far more often than anything else is a full-sail with race rods. So, I would start with that, which fills the middle to bottom wind range nicely. Anything else to add would be to have a more ideal setup for more conditions. Race Rods will fly in a full sail in 10mph wind, but it sure is nice to use a mid-vent instead. Because wind conditions in most places tend to lean to the lower wind range, I would start there. And if need be, you may not be able to fly when the wind is up unusually high.

Where in the US are you? There may be other rev flyers near by. Maybe check the Member Map at the Rev Forum.

[4sp]

To be able to cover all bases, I would suggest having a set of Race Rods, 3-wrap rods, and 4-wrap rods for both you and your girlfriend, as well as a full-sail, and full-vented kite. The Race Rods are great light wind rods, and are fairly strong, so they can handle a gust. I prefer these to 2 wrap rods because of their added strength, and because of the flight characteristics it presents with the difference in flex. 3 wrap rods would be for moderate winds, and 4 wrap rods for heavy winds. Once the wind gets above around 15mph, a full sail may be a bit much to handle, so a full vent would be very helpful.

If you want to cut costs a bit, you could do without the 4 wrap rods. I never use them in my full-sail because, when it gets to that point, I might as well put up the full-vent. Also, if the wind gets high enough to warrant using 4 wrap in the full-sail you can compensate by putting the 3-wrap and Race Rods in together.

That sure would cover all the bases, but yeah, cost would be the issue. I'm thinking of full sails for now. How about between these scenarios, which would you pick? I don't have the advantage of a local kite show where I could look before buying.

One 3wrap frame, one 2 wrap frame, and an extra 3 or 4 wrap leading edge

one 3-wrap frame, one race rod frame, and an extra 3 or 4 wrap LE

one 2-wrap frame, one race rod frame, and an extra 3 or 4 wrap LE

two 3-wrap frames with extra 2 wrap LE ... too many choices!

Thanks,

Nat

One thing that I would want to note is that if you and your girlfriend get to the point where you are able to fly together, and actually share the same air space, you will want the kites to be set up the same. This way they fly near the same speed, and have similar characteristics. If I was looking to set up a pair with a low budget, I would go with two full sail kites, two sets of race rods, and two sets of 3 wrap rods. If you are really terribly tight on money, you could substitute the race rods with 2 wrap rods, but I think the wider wind range and the characteristics presented by the race rods are worth the extra cost.

In my bag, the set up that gets use far more often than anything else is a full-sail with race rods. So, I would start with that, which fills the middle to bottom wind range nicely. Anything else to add would be to have a more ideal setup for more conditions. Race Rods will fly in a full sail in 10mph wind, but it sure is nice to use a mid-vent instead. Because wind conditions in most places tend to lean to the lower wind range, I would start there. And if need be, you may not be able to fly when the wind is up unusually high.

Where in the US are you? There may be other rev flyers near by. Maybe check the Member Map at the Rev Forum.

I'm in western MA, it looks like the closest person is 2 hours away. Any one else in western MA? Thats good advice, maybe 2 race rod sets is the best balance. I would get one free LE, so maybe I would get a 2 wrap, so I could swap it for light flying, or double with a race rod LE for heavy conditions (or get a 4 wrap to swap in in heavy conditions?). It's true we would like to fly at the same time, but since we are new, I would like to sample different setups (light, moderate). That way, when it's time to spend more money, I have more experience with the different setups. I'm ordering it Monday, so I will just pick one (and consult with the dealer) when the time comes. I don't think there are any rev flyers nearby unfortunately, I would love to check our setups that work for others.

Thanks for the advice,

Nat

[JasonOsteo]

If you intend flying together in the same airspace, I would second the matched pair suggestion.

However, if you are looking for the cheapest way to cover a wide wind range, then I would go with a full sale and a vented in the JB package. This gives you 1x 2wrap, 2x 3wrap and 1x 4wrap frames.

The vented should be good to go on the 2-wrap at about 8-10mph when the full sail will be very happy on the 3wrap. However, the flying characteristics are somewhat different. The vented will feel extremely precise and smooth, the full sail a little less forgiving and more prone to reacting to gusts.

Can't comment on race rods as I have never used them, but I would say that the people I fly with seem to use them a lot.

Just be warned, this is a very addictive form of kite to fly. I suppose they are a little like golf in that you can play but will always have room for improvement!

[Guru4tru]

My wife and I started with (2) Standard B series Revs. (mine a Pro), each coming with a set of 2 and 3 wrap rods. Looking back, I can't think about a better way to go, except to maybe replace the 2 wrap rods with racing rods, if possible, as Watty mentioned, but we didn't know about racing rod then.

EDIT: Now if you are going to be flying mostly alone I would suggest, as Watty & JasonOsteo mentioned, going with a standard and a full-vent.

Keep It Up!

Duane

[RobB]

Hey Nat...

I went to school at UMass, and knowing the winds around there... look towards the lighter wind setup. I only have one Rev kite, a vented B series, and only get it out when the winds are 15+mph. The rest of the time I fly duals. I've found that the vented B series can fly easily in 10mph with the 3 wraps, but it gets tough in less wind, especially because my only lines are 120'.

Good luck !

~Rob.

[4sp]

What if I had 2x 3-wrap frames, and a SUL 2-wrap leading edge that could go in one kite. That sounds like a good starting point which I can add to later. If I had a kite with two 2-wrap vertical spars, and a 3-wrap leading edge (full sail), could I fly that in the 10-20 mph range? If I got 2x race rod frames, I think that would add $90, which is more then I can afford right now.

If I bought a short (20-30 ft) 50 lb line set in addition to 2x 90ft 90lb linesets, could I possibly fly one of the kites in my back yard? That would give me much more flying time.

Thanks for all the advice,

Nat

[Spence Watson]

What if I had 2x 3-wrap frames, and a SUL 2-wrap leading edge that could go in one kite. That sounds like a good starting point which I can add to later. If I had a kite with two 2-wrap vertical spars, and a 3-wrap leading edge (full sail), could I fly that in the 10-20 mph range? If I got 2x race rod frames, I think that would add $90, which is more then I can afford right now.

If I bought a short (20-30 ft) 50 lb line set in addition to 2x 90ft 90lb linesets, could I possibly fly one of the kites in my back yard? That would give me much more flying time.

Thanks for all the advice,

Nat

Doubling up a 2 and 3 wrap LE could fly in the 10-20mph range, but you would want to be careful on the upper end. As the wind picks up, the kite will become more twitchy and less controllable, not to mention the stress on the frame.

A short line set would enable you to fly in your back yard, as long as it is of decent size. Just be aware that it is not as easy as it sounds. In a place like a residential back yard, the wind will tend to swirl and gust considerably. Be prepared for a challenge.

[Guru4tru]

One thing I would suggest Nat is, whenever you get whatever you decide on...wait for a day with some good wind and a good place to fly for you first outing. I know how much I wanted to get out there right away when I got my (well, my wife's...heehee!) first Rev., and I did...the wind was lousy...very light and switching direction...it was a very frustrating experience and I wish I would have waited.

Another thing would be to check out John's "line management tutorial", if you haven't already. I was a dualie flyer before the Revs. and I had some frustrating times dealing with the 4 lines too!

As for combining different LE and vertical rods...I can't help you there. I just ran the standard rods throughout and I don't know about that stuff.

Keep It Up!

Duane

[4sp]

Guru4Tru, I want to say I'll follow your advice about waiting for good wind...but I know I'll have to get out there as soon as the gear shows up! I do understand your point about creating unneeded frustration for myself.

Watty, just for reference, how long are the lines you use in this photo?

http://kitelife.com/...%3B-wa-fun-fly/

[RobB]

Learn where the good wind in your area is... your backyard probably isn't one of those places, unless you live out in the farm fields. The sports fields at UMass should be OK, and the Oxbow Marina area looks promising for flying up by you. Waiting for good wind is a cruel joke when you live inland... Pack your bags & head for the shore when you get a chance.

~Rob.

[Guru4tru]

Learn where the good wind in your area is... your backyard probably isn't one of those places, unless you live out in the farm fields. The sports fields at UMass should be OK, and the Oxbow Marina area looks promising for flying up by you. Waiting for good wind is a cruel joke when you live inland... Pack your bags & head for the shore when you get a chance.

~Rob.

Come On Rob!!

You don't think I'd ever joke about anything like that?!?! heehee!!

Keep It Up!

Duane

[Spence Watson]

Watty, just for reference, how long are the lines you use in this photo?

http://kitelife.com/...%3B-wa-fun-fly/

Oh my. Those lines are 8feet long. It may allow you to fly in a tiny spot, but be aware that when the lines are that short, you have VERY little room to fly. I wouldn't recommend flying on lines that short when you are first starting out. It takes a little practice to get enough control to manage your speed and your positioning. For learning, I recommend having as much room as possible. You will find that with longer lines you will have more time to react and think about how to control the kite. When on 8 foot lines, it takes less than a second to get from the top of the wind window to the ground.

[4sp]

Learn where the good wind in your area is... your backyard probably isn't one of those places, unless you live out in the farm fields. The sports fields at UMass should be OK, and the Oxbow Marina area looks promising for flying up by you. Waiting for good wind is a cruel joke when you live inland... Pack your bags & head for the shore when you get a chance.

~Rob.

Thats good advice, I didn't think about the Oxbow marina! We might head to the shore for a day trip.

We have a ~1 acre field that is pretty clear. I know it's not ideal, but if I have nothing else to do, I can see myself going out there and putzing around(as you see in some videos on youtube), where otherwise I wouldn't want to drive somewhere and get all set up.

[4sp]

Finally placed the order, got the 1.5 mylar kite with a 3 wrap, and then a 1.5 B with 2 wrap and 3 wrap frames. Got the 1.5B in teal/black, which is a discontinued color, but they had some at Kite Connection. Can't want to get them, I'll put a picture up when the arrive.

Thanks for the advice everyone,

Nat

[Spence Watson]

Finally placed the order, got the 1.5 mylar kite with a 3 wrap, and then a 1.5 B with 2 wrap and 3 wrap frames. Got the 1.5B in teal/black, which is a discontinued color, but they had some at Kite Connection. Can't want to get them, I'll put a picture up when the arrive.

Thanks for the advice everyone,

Nat

Congratulations! That's one of many future purchases I am sure.

[Guru4tru]

Finally placed the order, got the 1.5 mylar kite with a 3 wrap, and then a 1.5 B with 2 wrap and 3 wrap frames. Got the 1.5B in teal/black, which is a discontinued color, but they had some at Kite Connection. Can't want to get them, I'll put a picture up when the arrive.

Thanks for the advice everyone,

Nat

Congratulations! That's one of many future purchases I am sure.

Hey Nat,

That sound great!! Congrats on your choices!

Now remember these Rev. kites are truly precision instruments...and it will take a little time for the kite to teach you how to fly it properly! So....Be relaxed and listen closely to what the kites are telling you! (And if possible...send some pictures!! heehee!)

Keep It Up!

Duane

[John Dvoracek]

As others have said, flying a Rev is a BIG step up from a 2-line kite. Be patient, and expect to run headlong into a learning curve. I may be an unusually slow learner, or maybe just old, but I couldn't keep from crashing until the third time out - and I do mean crashing. While you're waiting for the kites to arrive, go to Quad line tutorials in Kitelife.com downloads and LearnKites.com and study the video tutorials. DO THIS!

I know I'm too late, but I'll answer your question in case others follow this thread to help them in the same situation. You can't cover low and high wind flying with one kite, so you have to pick one end of the spectrum or the other. You are generally going to be in a low wind situation, so I would have recommended a Barresi B-series signature (1.5) package which comes with 2 and 3 wrap frames and very nice handles. To this add some lighter line. 50 pound will handle that kite in all situations you will encounter, about 90 feet of it. That will aid you in low wind conditions, saving line weight the kite won't have to lift. When the wind is heavier, you can put both the 2-wrap and 3-wrap frame in the leading edge, or for simplicity, you can also pick up a 4-wrap leading edge set for big wind (center rod and two spars). When I fly with the 4-wrap leading edge, I still use the 3-wrap vertical spars.

If you get hooked, you will want a range of Revs better suited to a range of conditions. Have fun, and remember, patience!

[Corrected to identify "B-series signature" as such and not as "B-series Pro" per post below.]

[Wayne Dowler]

The "B" signature series comes with the 2 complete frames, handles, and DVD!! Some stores offer linesets as well! A "B" pro is offered as kite only with 1 frame!!

John D. - there is a difference!! PM sent!

[4sp]

So we got the kites a few days ago, and just went flying. We had unusually strong winds today, which made for great flying at the UMass soccer fields. We both picked it up pretty quickly, and were having a blast. But then....my kite was up at the top of the window, and it was pulling really hard, I was trying to walk towards it to get tension off the lines, and bring it down, and one of my 3 wrap verticals snapped mid air and fell to the ground! When I got it to the ground, I noticed the end cap had actually split in two. Kind of a bummer....

So I had the 3 wrap frame in my 1.5B, my girlfriend had a 3-wrap frame, and we put an extra 2-wrap leading edge in her 1.5. Her kite seemed fine, in that it didn't break. Does it make sense that a stiffer leading edge would put less stress on the vertical spar?

The UMass weather station showed a 33 mph max wind right around the time my spar broke, it was 16-24 mph all morning. I guess those are conditions for a vented kite, eh? There was a ton of pull on the kite. Kite Connection Dave said he had never heard of an endcap breaking like that.

Anyways, it was great fun while it lasted, here are some photos! Hope to get a replacement part tomorrow on our way to the beach.

[Jeepster]

Above 25mph, I'm usually flying a mega-vent - home built 'cuz Rev didn't have the extra-vent when I needed it. Mine has double the venting of a B-series full vent. So, yes you were really pushing the envelope for a full sail. If you must fly, make sure you have lots and lots of break so that the kite doesn't get away from you. So much break that you almost can't fly forward at launch.

JB claims that the vertical spar is loaded more than the leading edge. Those are the spars that I've seen fail the most, so maybe he's right ... don't you just hate that?

Like Dave, I've never seen an end cap break. Could be a defect, maybe the rod wasn't fully inserted, or maybe you hit it extra hard at one time. The positive point is that the end cap's a few dollars vs. ten plus for the vertical rod.

When the wind starts blowing that hard, go to the top of the wind window like you did. But, keep the top lines pulled back to unload the sail ... you're trying to position the sail parallel to the wind. If you need to get it down and the wind continues to blow hard, then simply slide the kite sideways, staying at the edge of the wind window, until it reaches the ground. If available, have someone there to catch the kite.

Welcome to the dark side ... it continues to get better and better.

Cheers,

Tom