kitedad

The crease marks are not from flying but from the folding when putting it away. it is only doing that where the two LE spars come together straight down the kite kind of like when you fold wax paper. I don't see that happening on any of my icarex duallies anywhere, but understand that can happen as well to icarex but perhaps not to the same extent. I'm not too worried about it, if I get several hundred use cycles out of it before it goes south, I'll have gotten my moneys worth, I paid 160$ for the std. I'm pretty sure it's just a cosmetic problem. Only time will tell. If I had some pics I would post them, if anyone would like to see what i'm talking about I will do that. Andy is aware of the problem from several sources. Another flyer I know with the same kite is showing more creasing as his has been stored and folded more than mine so mine isn't too bad-yet.

When I bought the vertigo he told me straight up the sail material in the vertigo line is p20 I think he called it, is new to kites and has not been tried and tested in service for years like p31, icarex they call it which is used in the exodus line. The p20 sail in a std.is a little lighter and can fly in a little less wind than the exodus std. It looks and feels just like icarex. I prefer the p20 in the vertigo std because of the slightly improved wind range. even though the sail exibits crease marks along the fold lines more readily than icarex. I would have preferred to have gotten the exodus max instead of the vertigo max had I to do it all over and not take a chance on that kite as the wind range is irrelevant with the max'es. both Kites seems to be flying well though. I can't say if he knew about the crease mark thing in the p20 when he sold me the kite, it was more like Hey look this kite material is new and I don't know if it will last a year or ten years. It was my decision - I found out about the crease marks a few weeks later from another vertigo flyer I recently met at the field. Who knows who knew what when.

If it's a thing, call andy, at osk he'll clear it all up. It's all water under the bridge for me now, maybe this info will help others make a decision.

When I spoke to andy at osk, he said the revs have a rubberized mesh, that could explain why some are degrading. Rubber has a tendancy to detiorate over time and exposure to the elements, Car tires do the same thing, they dry out, start cracking and pretty soon bob's your uncle. Don't know about dacron mesh at all, it's the chance you take. Some vented duals have lazer cut holes.I have one, it's a silver fox, no problems whatsoever with the holes. I would take a chance if I had to do it over again after all its a 160-200$ kite not a 400-600$ one. I like my gold teeth and I don't want to sell any to buy a quad. One last thing, are mesh panels in the vented revs the same mesh? Are they not having problems as well. If so, why not?

I noticed a change already in the freilien kites, first time I noticed was at wsikf when team evidence rolled out their new custom colored freilein kites. There was no mesh along the top, instead there are a series of 3/4 in holes in line along the LE. After that I was in ocean shores last weekend and seen they had these kites on sale in the store as well. There were still the ones with the mesh for sale also, I don't know if they are discontinuing the mesh or will offer both versions. He said there's no problem with their mesh as its not the same as Rev's mesh, so why put holes in it instead? Look at Rev, did they know in advance how long the mesh would last, I doubt it. Getting rid of the mesh solves the mesh problem but will the holes do much better in the long run?. This is innovation at work, Sometimes there are bumps along the way I expect to see more of this type of thing, with competition comes innovation. Let the games begin.

So I was at wsikf and was rambling on with an old guy like myself who was flying a 4d, he could fly like two or three at a time, I noticed the lines he was using and he said it was powerpro depth hunter fishing line, the multi-colored one in 50# and 40' or so. I started thinking well why not, I've read all the stuff about not using fishing line ect.ect. but curiosity got the better of me so I looked around at powerpro's website and came across one of their newest offerings, super slick 8 in hivis yellow. It is an 8 strand braid like the kite version, is made of spectra of course, is manufactured under high tension so its pre- stretched, thinner and smother and as a result is like skybond, and comes in yellow- I said to me, who would ever know? If I put this on a winder and had a kite shop and stuck it under the counter, I could call it skybond and rake in the cash. I bought a spool of 150 yds of 50#, {wanted some cause I bought a fwings airwave zero last week for my boy} I made up a 120' set a 50' set and still have enough left over for another 40-50' set. Paid 20$ for the spool. My boy flew it tonight on his zero in 1-2mph wind [if that- I couldn't see any grass moving at all} the kite flew fine and the lines were taught and straight all the way to the kite. They only make this from 10#-80# though. Good enough for lite wind flying for us at least. 80 may be good for a quad though but I already have some 90# x 120' skybond I paid almost 100$ for.

Fine food for thought. Yea I can see a lot of times when he flys that he should "get the lead out" but that's him. Not only with kite flying but a lot of other things too. I know it- I've let him know it- now it's up to him. I just want to help him out the best I can. I don't want to give the impression he stands still all the time but I can say I think he would prefer to if he could. {natural born quad flyer maybe:) I think I will just spent some money on a line set and replace the spars in the z that have been spliced. It's very tempting to go and buy a new kite, we have one more festival to go to and they have a used kite loft thing there.....last year I almost grabbed a used quantum pro sul for 200. If the right kite lands in my lap I'm not sure I can contain myself. Maybe if I just take ten dollars with me.

Nice, but is the only option to buy one here in the us is directly from Benson? I'm thinking more like fw airwave zero for 100$. Yes I know you get what you pay for but I can go through three zero's for one Benson till he gets over the learning curve.

Not worth it to remove the upper spreader on the zephyr then as the wind meter seems to indicate. We only had about an hour to fly it yesterday so we'll experiment more another day. I don't have a reason or would have thought to do it on a full kite as we have plenty of options now for the upper wind ranges. It's the lowest end that still gets us hung up some. I've looked quite a bit for something affordable, I find it hard to go with the 4d because its a smaller kite. I've also looked at the fw zero and airwave too but haven't done enough research on those yet. We went to boxcar park tonight looking to fly the zephr and guess what, we ended up using his vented 2.5 for about an hour. It was nice though. As for the ATM, the lowers are d10 and the spine is d15 I didn't pull the covers off the leading edge to see but I guess their D10 as well. I had see the damage to your ATM about a year ago on the other forum and took the precaution of putting some gaffers tape on the trailing edge to try and prevent the kind of damage you had. I also put a little on the nose and the nocks. My boy flys well at standard flying but is trying to learn tricks the hard way, by trial and error. He's making some progress but it's slow. It was a fun day, a dog went by while he was flying, I thought it was going to pee on his leg but then he almost tripped over it, it was just a puppy. Aren't you not supposed to stand still when you fly?

We went out and flew the zephyr a little today to see what would happen if I took out the upper spreader. It flew just as well without as with but the wind range didn't change much as far as we could tell, I checked with the meter and it was 3.5-5 mph. I did some checking into the frame to see if anything was changed from original. I found a place in the lower LE on one side that had been spliced and another splice in the spine about two inches from the nose. the spine was a p300, the LE was p100 and the lower spreaders were 3pt. I emailed prizm to see if that is stock. I'm pretty sure the LE and lower spreaders were right but not too sure about the spine, maybe it wouldn't make much difference if it was a heavier spine. Maybe I should replace the spliced pieces as the splice rod inside the frame might be whats adding weight.

We haven't gotten around to using the tail weight yet because when I bought it used it didn't have one or its bag for that matter, so I finally got around to ordering a bag last may and ordered the tailweight for it too. My boy is just starting out trying to learn some tricks and we've been spending most of the time learning the kite in slow winds but not too much trick work.Just haven't gotten around to trying out the tailweight. All true about adjusting the bridle for higher winds and tighter turns though but when the wind picks up we'll go to the atm or his std fw 2.5 silverfox at around six mph. It's mostly his choice. thanks everyone for all the info, winds are pretty light this morn, we may go see what the kite will do without the spreader. Many other things need doing- have to see what I can put off.

Didn't know about the spreader, will have to try that, have not used the kite with the tail weight yet, when the wind picks up we go to other kites. My boy says the atm turns tighter and or faster than the zephyr so he like that when the wind picks up a smidge. I've looked the bridle over quite a bit on the atm but it doesn't look like its adjustable anywhere or at least its not obvious to me. When I orderd the atm from andy it arrived in a bag marked ul, so I wondered if I'd gotten the right kite, that was about two years ago, so I emailed lam to check that the kite was actually a sul by verifying the rods in it were the correct ones and it checked out ok so they just had the bags mixed up I'll keep beating my brains out and try to get it to fly for him in slower winds, all good fun.

My boy has had a used zephr for about a year now and I bought a new wind meter at the start of summer as well. We've found the zephyr cam fly around 3.5-4 mph sustained with dips briefly into the 2.5mph range. It likes 4-5 He's not all that experienced at low wind flying so that should be factored in as well. We've been plagued for that last year and a half with either too much wind or not enough at every festilval we've been to. The zephyr fills the bill for general low wind flying but I'm also on the lookout for something in the 0-1 to 5ish range as well. I know of an old Nirvana sul for sale used but the sail is a little beat up, ugly tape repair needing redoing ect. but is availiable for about 100$. perhaphs if you have the $ a newer version might be what you need. We also have an atm sul but find it needs about 1-2 mph more wind than the zephyr to fly any kind of decent. results may vary due to a flyers ability level. The key with the zephyr is to make sure the bridle adjustment is set to the low wind setting. It seems to be a tough little kite for the money and can fly in more wind if you adjust the bridle.

Another option might be to just use some gaffers tape. I applied some to the nose of a vented silver fox for my boy some time ago because some of the edges were starting to fray and the thing I like about it is its a cloth tape that's fairly durable but unlike the cloth tape you buy at the hardware store, it can be removed without leaving a residue, or at least what little is left is easily removed. It stays put pretty well, is black and blends well with the nose and other wear area's. Not recommended for the sail area though. I wrap the nocks on some kites to minimize impact damage to the tips and to cover the tensioner lines that tend to snag on the tips. a roll of say 60yds is about 20$ It is also good for other emergency repairs like camping equipment ect.. while on the road. I always have it in the car when we go camping or to the beach. I've seen the pictures of your atm when it was damaged and used some to cover the trailing edge on either side of the standoffs of my boys atm since he has the black and grey one and is holding up well. That wasn't a repair but a preventative measure.

where there's a wad of cash, there is a way. I want to buy it. I have a sewing machine, they are really handy at times, minor repairs ok but a whole kite, no way.

Once you've had bag you never go back. seriously though, I bought one of andy's kite bags at ocean shores kite back in june, there were only two kinds, the prizm one and some Chinese one. Can you guess which one I bought, ok so I'm a bargin hunter I bought the Chinese one, I like the looks, has shoulder straps and a handle in the middle but the only thing that holds it shut is velcro sewn in four places, I wanted a more secure attachment so I sewed three 1/1/2 in nylon straps with buckles to it. two near the ends and one in the middle. I had to re-sew a few places that had come unraveled but its pretty good now, I like it once I fixed everything, but unless you have a sewing machine, might want to get a better bag,. Price was about 50$ cheaper than the prizm bag so I'm cool with it.

tape would go over the existing wear strips in case they go south. Is that what your referring to? Or did you add them where there's no wear strips? I don't use gaffer tape on the sail generally, I put some on the nocks and nose and some along the trailing edge of an atm. The trailing edge tape is insurance against damage from rollups as I've seen some pictures of damage in that area on another forum. I put some on the nocks along with a vinyl cap because if he breaks one it may be hard to find a replacement for that kite. I can pull it off at any time, no issues. The LE string won't stay in the sleeve very well so I use gaffers tape to hold the cap on and keep the string inside the sleeve, It's black and blends in well with that kite. I'm reinforcing that kite as my boy is still trying to do tricks and he can be pretty rough with it, its a fairly fragile kite. I can remove the tape after he gets better at trilcking. Gaffers tape is a cloth tape like you buy in the hardware store but is removable and doesn't leave a residue. I'll be bringing some to the festival next week. Its a little spendy, 20$ for a roll of 1in. x 60 yds. I'll check it all out at the festival.

Ah yes I remember the name insignia tape but hadn't used or researched it much. That would be a more permanent repair, as in not being able to remove it. I'd learned about gaffers tape about a year ago and the advantage it has is it holds well but can be removed without leaving a residue. I was thinking a temp fix but not until its really necessary, maybe I'll change my mind. It's what sound stage crews use to tape wires and such to floors or furniture ect. and be able to remove them later. Of course insignia tape would look better as well as lighter. I should probably pick some up next time I order some more kite supplies. I applied some gaffers tape to the nose of my boys vented dual line and some vulnerable spots on his atm sul, I just spent the day resheathing a quad line, measuring and checking all the other lines reading for WSIKF. All set ready to close the bag.

I took a good look at the creases with I'm guessing a 10 pwr magnifier. Nothing conclusive could be gained at that power, my electron microscope and chemistry degree I ordered from amazon should be here next week. I sprayed some obernaufs on it and all I get is a more waterproof kite. It does look like its only cosmetic because of the way the light reflects off the fabric but also has a scratch like look on the weave. Only time will tell I guess. So far the mylar or whatever looks ok but is still pretty new.

I'm going to pull it out here in a little while and get out a magnifying glass and have a closer look. My theory at the moment is the problem is in the urethane coating used to waterproof the fabric. I looked at icarexpolyester.com website last night and icarex uses a double sided polyurethane coating as well. I'm thinking its like the pu coating used to give cheaper waterproof-breathable fabric its waterproof qualities. Perhaps the freilein kite is using a substandard coating the is too brittle or something and cracks easily.I'm going to try an experiment and spray some tx direct or some obenauf's watershield and see what happens. I use those to re-treat my Gore-Tex dwr coating. [finger's crossed] My boys kite has only been used for or five times so its not too bad yet. It's too bad the kite looks good and flies nice too. I'll keep an eye on on the wear strip also, I have some gaffers tape I could put on the wear strip if I want but it may be a little heavy.

Made a discovery at the local field today, while the kite fly's well, I met another with the frielien verftigo and fould out the sail material which is not icarex but a new similar materal p-20 I think its called, doesn't like to be folded and rolled. The other person with the vertigo that I met today has more hours on his than ours and has developed creases in the fabric where it is folded and then rolled for storage. The creases look like when you fold up wax paper. Ours has only been used about five times so far and is starting to show already. I don't know if its in the color or in the fabric itself. I don't know if will cause failure in the long term but right now it is just a little unsightly. It can't be seen in the air, just up close. I would have probably gotten the icarex version,exodus for about 50$ more. Other than this one issue all is well.

Or look into a frielien kite. bought a std and a vented for my boy, he's a dueller just starting in quads and is doing well with it. It looks well made, is good looking {to us} and won't break the bank, the two cost almost the same as one rev kite. We can always sell them later and buy a rev if he finds out the rev will serve him better, but for now we are good to go. Of course this may be blasphemy to rev'ers but I just consider it a darker side of the dark side. The std vertigo freilien was 160$, vented 199$ {kite only} and unlike the EXP they both have wear strips behind the verticals. no extra frame though. Kite can be bought as a package deal with lines if you need them or just the kite. Oceanshores kites has revs on sale right now also, pretty good deal either way if you must. Better to find out more from andy at his store, I'm only showing an option to rev's, one should always check out for themselves if its a good one for you, We're not experience'd enough about either kites to recommend buying a freilein, but for us it's been a positive thing so far. good luck to all, time to find some wind.

Hi, I have two brand new kites, not revs, but, you know, the other rev, the [F] rev, maybe its not worth it for these kites but I thought i'd look into it. Its for my boy [23] who's new to quads and I think he'd really appreciate having it done. Were going to WSIKF and am thinking of giving the kites to Mr.B around the end of the fest if he'll do it., it will save some postage and some time. Looks like a very nice job. I have a sewing machine but have large fingers like tootsie rolls made of butter. Just having him sign the kite would be worth the money. So everyone knows, it's for my boy, I don't fly btw, he breaks em, I crate em. I haven't made up my mind to do it yet but since there's some time left....... Maybe some feedback is what I'm looking for. btw, checking Ocean shores kites website, andy has all his b-series on sale for 199.

were pumped up now, ready to get it on. we'll be out first thing mon morning somewhere. we'll probably see your kite, its black if I remember right. My boys quads are both blue.

Sorry if I started a brouhaha :), all great info though and some very funny stuff, I had anticipated much of what was said and all is very true. its great to know about changing the frame if my boy decides he wants to try to get more out of his freilien after he is more experienced. btw wayne you and my boy spoke at the ocean shores kite fest back in june, perhaps you remember, he asked about the freilein and you told him the same as what you posted above so we went and bought one soon after. He wore the outback oilskin hat he always wears. He says hi and thanks for helping him on his decision. We'll be at WSIKF in a few and are looking forward to a great time. we'll be there all week this year so he can have more time to fly before the sport kite comps on fri,sat. Last year he only had the dualies to fly and was so outnumbered by rev flyers it was hard to find a place to fly inside the ropes. One lady even put her quad down on his lines and forced his kite out of the sky, luckily no damage but it could have been worse for both as he was flying his silver fox 2.5 vented in some pretty heavy wind but the kite is pretty much a tank so I told him it may not have been intentional and all is well, {part of my job as kite wrangler}. unrelated to this but some may find it interesting, He'd set his kite down and was walking somewhere when I looked over and saw some people picking up his kite and another was about to grab his lines and was going to fly his kite! wind must have been 20mph. I had to run over and stop them before they wrecked something, they were foreigners and thought anything inside the ropes was for anybody to fly. Have to watch stuff like a hawk man. One of the high points of that year was watching Mr. B and all the others team flying out on the field, I don't recall what day it was but it did help convince him to pick up quad flying.