Spence Watson
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Posts posted by Spence Watson
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Let me preface this with saying that I initially made this sheet as added material to be given out at the 4th Annual West Coast Rev Clinic.
Watty,
Good work pulling together a single page overview of all the commonly available rods. That's a great help for someone joining the ranks. I stumbled upon Kent's explanations on his website (A Wind of Change) for the SLE, 2-, 3-, and 4-wrap rods and it helped me tremendously when first starting.
One correction ... The SLE rods have a 7/16 inch internal diameter.
I've never really bothered to measure. 1/2 inch looks close enough for me, and for the general rev flyer, they get the idea.
One point of clarification ... The 1/4 inch indoor rods have a variety of labels. Mine has the Race Rod label. I only have data for my set of indoor rods, but they are close to the same stiffness as some outdoor race rods, so I'm not positive that they are built with more flexibility.
The variety of labels was during revolutions indoor self-identity crisis. They began with the skinny "Advantage 1.5," then skinny "Professional Use Only." They then switched to 1/4 inch rods with a silver flame label similar to the race rods, but with no text. They then added the text "Race" to these same rods. They have now settled on a single feather to go with the trend of the 2, 3, and 4 wrap rods. Because there is limited space on a single printed document, I decided to stick with information that is relevant for items that one would purchase from Revolution today.
Second point of clarification ... In the Race Rod description you say that they are more flexible than the standard rods. Yet, they are advertised as being "as stiff as a 3-wrap". They don't meet that standard, but they are stiffer than a 2-wrap.
I've always felt that, in it's ideal wind, the race rods are a tad more flexible than the regular rods. I seem to remember them being advertised being "as strong as a 3-wrap."
One question ... Please explain what you mean by the highlighted sentence in the attached write-up. You've included it the 2-, 3-, and 4-wrap write-ups.
2-Wrap: 2-wrap rods are the lightest and most fragile rods for outdoor use. These rods
have a similar stiffness to the 3-wrap and 4-wrap rods. These rods should be used in the
lower wind ranges. 2-wrap rods are identified by their label with either 2 feathers or the
words “Professional Use Only” with an internal diameter of ¼ inch.
This is meaning that in it's ideal wind, each of these rods will act similarly.
Bare in mind that this is not intended to be the Official Revolution Guide or anything. It is simply a bit of information to allow for beginners to understand what is going on when someone on the field says, "I'm switching to race."
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Yes black race rods are still available.
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Finally placed the order, got the 1.5 mylar kite with a 3 wrap, and then a 1.5 B with 2 wrap and 3 wrap frames. Got the 1.5B in teal/black, which is a discontinued color, but they had some at Kite Connection. Can't want to get them, I'll put a picture up when the arrive.
Thanks for the advice everyone,
Nat
Congratulations! That's one of many future purchases I am sure.
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BTW...I don't know their weight, but I figure there lighter then a 2 wrap
And if so, I know someone has probably already done this:"Cut down some Zen rods to fit the 1.5 B-Series Rev."
And how did it work out?
Keep It Up!
Duane
They make a full Zen frame for the 1.5!!! No need to cut anything down!!!
I didn't know that!! But, then I really don't know much about anything!! heehee!
Do you know if it is any good or what winds the 1.5 can fly in with them? I can do about 4 mph at the low end now without lots of effort, if the wind is steady. How much could I gain from a set?
Keep It Up!
Duane
I haven't flown the Zen rods, but I have in the Zen. I found them to be far too flexible, especially for a rev1 sized kite. Not sure about the weight though. Honestly, I didn't like them the times that I tried them, and that was all that mattered to me. Didn't have any reason to investigate farther. IMO, black race rods are where it's at.
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Watty, just for reference, how long are the lines you use in this photo?
Oh my. Those lines are 8feet long. It may allow you to fly in a tiny spot, but be aware that when the lines are that short, you have VERY little room to fly. I wouldn't recommend flying on lines that short when you are first starting out. It takes a little practice to get enough control to manage your speed and your positioning. For learning, I recommend having as much room as possible. You will find that with longer lines you will have more time to react and think about how to control the kite. When on 8 foot lines, it takes less than a second to get from the top of the wind window to the ground.
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What if I had 2x 3-wrap frames, and a SUL 2-wrap leading edge that could go in one kite. That sounds like a good starting point which I can add to later. If I had a kite with two 2-wrap vertical spars, and a 3-wrap leading edge (full sail), could I fly that in the 10-20 mph range? If I got 2x race rod frames, I think that would add $90, which is more then I can afford right now.
If I bought a short (20-30 ft) 50 lb line set in addition to 2x 90ft 90lb linesets, could I possibly fly one of the kites in my back yard? That would give me much more flying time.
Thanks for all the advice,
Nat
Doubling up a 2 and 3 wrap LE could fly in the 10-20mph range, but you would want to be careful on the upper end. As the wind picks up, the kite will become more twitchy and less controllable, not to mention the stress on the frame.
A short line set would enable you to fly in your back yard, as long as it is of decent size. Just be aware that it is not as easy as it sounds. In a place like a residential back yard, the wind will tend to swirl and gust considerably. Be prepared for a challenge.
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Just for informational purposes......................
I am attaching some recent weights, that I took on some sets of rods, that I currently own.
They are listed in ascending order, according to weight, and they lined up, just as you might expect.........
These are 5 pc sets...(3 LE Rods, 2 ferrules & 2 Vertical Rods)......weighed in grams, and then re-weighed in ounces.........
2 wrap--------------75 grams--------2.60 ounces
Race (black)------80 grams--------2.80 ounces
Race (green)-----95 grams--------3.40 ounces
3 wrap-------------105 grams--------3.70 ounces
4 wrap-------------115 grams--------4.10 ounces
Anybody got any comparisons ?
I was aware of most of these weights, with the exception of the green race rods. Good to see where they fit as far as weight goes. Good info. Thanks
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I had similar findings as you when I first tried the Green Race Rods. They feel fine when there is not much pressure on the kite. I had different findings after taking them to the beach in some decent wind. I found that the rods will start bending, and they won't stop. As the wind gets stronger they seem to stretch even farther. I found that the kite feels "bouncy" and tends to absorb some of my inputs. It felt like any sharp or hard movements that I made lost their luster when the kite is framed in green.
As is, I am keeping these rods in my bag, but not for general use. I use them as backup rods for street kiting when the wind picks up. They perform great in light wind, and can handle the really large gusts, so they can come in handy as a fail-safe.
As for the strength of the rods, I have not had any break, but It's been a while since I have broken a rod in flight due to stress.
The Green Race Rods are closer in weight to the 3 wraps than they are to the 2 wraps. They are heavier than the Race Rods as well. So, I would say, no they are not as good in light wind as the regular race rods, or even 2 wrap rods, but they seem to be quite strong for their weight. I just do't care for the way it bends under pressure.
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To be able to cover all bases, I would suggest having a set of Race Rods, 3-wrap rods, and 4-wrap rods for both you and your girlfriend, as well as a full-sail, and full-vented kite. The Race Rods are great light wind rods, and are fairly strong, so they can handle a gust. I prefer these to 2 wrap rods because of their added strength, and because of the flight characteristics it presents with the difference in flex. 3 wrap rods would be for moderate winds, and 4 wrap rods for heavy winds. Once the wind gets above around 15mph, a full sail may be a bit much to handle, so a full vent would be very helpful.
If you want to cut costs a bit, you could do without the 4 wrap rods. I never use them in my full-sail because, when it gets to that point, I might as well put up the full-vent. Also, if the wind gets high enough to warrant using 4 wrap in the full-sail you can compensate by putting the 3-wrap and Race Rods in together.
That sure would cover all the bases, but yeah, cost would be the issue. I'm thinking of full sails for now. How about between these scenarios, which would you pick? I don't have the advantage of a local kite show where I could look before buying.
One 3wrap frame, one 2 wrap frame, and an extra 3 or 4 wrap leading edge
one 3-wrap frame, one race rod frame, and an extra 3 or 4 wrap LE
one 2-wrap frame, one race rod frame, and an extra 3 or 4 wrap LE
two 3-wrap frames with extra 2 wrap LE ... too many choices!
Thanks,
Nat
One thing that I would want to note is that if you and your girlfriend get to the point where you are able to fly together, and actually share the same air space, you will want the kites to be set up the same. This way they fly near the same speed, and have similar characteristics. If I was looking to set up a pair with a low budget, I would go with two full sail kites, two sets of race rods, and two sets of 3 wrap rods. If you are really terribly tight on money, you could substitute the race rods with 2 wrap rods, but I think the wider wind range and the characteristics presented by the race rods are worth the extra cost.
In my bag, the set up that gets use far more often than anything else is a full-sail with race rods. So, I would start with that, which fills the middle to bottom wind range nicely. Anything else to add would be to have a more ideal setup for more conditions. Race Rods will fly in a full sail in 10mph wind, but it sure is nice to use a mid-vent instead. Because wind conditions in most places tend to lean to the lower wind range, I would start there. And if need be, you may not be able to fly when the wind is up unusually high.
Where in the US are you? There may be other rev flyers near by. Maybe check the Member Map at the Rev Forum.
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I'm about to buy 2 Revs (one for me, one for my girlfriend). All we have flown is a basic stunt kite. One kite will be a 1.5m with a 3 wrap frame (older model at clearance price). For the other I have more options, the other kite could be a 1.5 , or a custom 1.5 that is built with Icarex fabric. However the colors are more limited with the 1.5 custom Icarex, then the standard 1.5. How much of a difference is there between the 2 fabrics? As a new flyer would I know or care? I'm not so picky about colors, but I can't figure out which way to go-better material with a color that isn't my top choice, or top color choice in standard material...Could consider the 1.5B, but if I can get a custom 1.5 with Icarex (only $20 more then standard 1.5), is there much advantage to the 1.5B (I know the fabric layout may be 'better')
I'm trying to figure out an 'optimal' combination of frames to cover all bases. Around where I live the winds are generally light(guessing 3-10 mph range), but I would like to be able to fly when we are in a place with higher winds. I would like to get a frame combo that will allow us to have at least one kite that will fly in the lowest of winds (complete 2 wrap frame?) one kite combo that would fly in the highest winds (20+ mph), and 2 kites that would fly at the same time in moderate winds.
So maybe I will get one kite with a 2-wrap frame, the other with a 3 wrap frame. And I think I get an extra leading edge with the 1.5, so maybe that would be a 3 wrap or SLE. I could add that LE to the 2-wrap frame when we are in higher winds (10-20 mph range). Or should I get both with 3 wraps, or upgrade to the race rods in one kite? I'm probably over thinking this, so any advice would be great!
I could also get an SUL, but it sounds like the heavier leading edge material in the standard kite would hold up better if there is lots of crashing, or LE rod failure. Leaning to non-SUL sail for perceived durability advantages...(at least I have made one decision!)
Thanks in advance,
Nat
Hello Nat,
I am not very well educated when it comes to fabrics, but from what I understand, the main benefit to using Icarex is that it does not stretch as much. This allows for a longer life of the kite because it will be less likely that the sail stretches to become too large for it's frame. Not something that happens very often, but it is a bit of a problem with the Rev Indoor in particular. Any kite makers, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
The 1.5JB, as you mentioned uses better material, and the sail design gives a bit of an edge in performance. If you are buying the kite only, then that is pretty much the main benefit. The B-Series Package on the other hand comes with handles + pigtails, training DVD's by JB, and two frame sets. These are things that are very beneficial.
To be able to cover all bases, I would suggest having a set of Race Rods, 3-wrap rods, and 4-wrap rods for both you and your girlfriend, as well as a full-sail, and full-vented kite. The Race Rods are great light wind rods, and are fairly strong, so they can handle a gust. I prefer these to 2 wrap rods because of their added strength, and because of the flight characteristics it presents with the difference in flex. 3 wrap rods would be for moderate winds, and 4 wrap rods for heavy winds. Once the wind gets above around 15mph, a full sail may be a bit much to handle, so a full vent would be very helpful.
If you want to cut costs a bit, you could do without the 4 wrap rods. I never use them in my full-sail because, when it gets to that point, I might as well put up the full-vent. Also, if the wind gets high enough to warrant using 4 wrap in the full-sail you can compensate by putting the 3-wrap and Race Rods in together.
Per your thoughts on the SLE, I would not recommend it. While the SLE is very strong, and can take a lot of abuse, it is extremely stiff. The problem with this is that the leading edge of a rev should bend just slightly. This allows the belly of the sail to cup more and gain more sail pressure. This leads to smoother and more precise flying characteristics. Some people like the SLE, but it is not something that is very highly regarded among rev flyers.
I agree with your decision about the SUL. The fabric and bridal are lighter and more easily worn down. While this does make the kite easier to fly in light wind, I've never found it necessary. I've flown a full-sail B-series indoors, right out of the package with no modifications.
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John Barresi and myself went street kiting in downtown Portland. Having recently moved to town, John showed me some of the coolest and challenging places to fly. We started out on his dock. Wind was awesome, blowing right off of the dock, and fairly consistently.
We then made our way to the market area and flew in and around the fountain. Eventually, we made our way along the river, then set down and packed up. For this entire adventure, I was using a full-sail B-Series with race rods, and 30 foot, 90lb lines. John was packing a full-sail B-Series Pro with race rods, and 30 foot, 50lb lines.
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My nickname, Watty, comes from my last name, Watson. All the males on my dad's side of the family have used the name Watty at one time or another, so I decided that it was my time to use it. Before I started using Watty I would play online games and things and I used a really nerdy screen name that was Morrunya. Not long after the Lord of the Rings movies, my brother bought an Elvish dictionary. Morrunya translates as "Dark Flame". My brother used the name Aradrang or something... it meant "Lone Wolf." I decided that Watty was much less dorky
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Yesterday, Phil Burks, Scott Weider, and myself flew in front of the students at a local elementary school. Here's some video.
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My dual line project, to be available through authorized Into The Wind distributors, pre-ordering opens in February.
Very nice. The kite was fun to fly, and thats unusual for me to spend any time on a dualie.
I read the description on YouTube, and a mix of new-school and new-school does seem like a nice mix. Would that be super new-school?
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Here's a the small video that is mentioned in that Revkites thread for ease of access.
doing it the "Watty" wayI don't know about the "Watty" way, but the "Stone in Shoe Bob" way works great
Some say that they don't like the added length on the top of the handles, but I don't mind it. At was a little annoying at first when I had been flying on normal handles forever. But now, I am completely used to it. Besides, I'm not near proactive enough to go and saw off the end of the handle....
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*cross posted from Revolution forum*
Your views on the AKA, I immediately agreed with. I've been competing in the AKA for a few years now, and after this year, I do not plan on competing outdoors at all. Eventually, I could see myself as an AKA member simply for the magazine. What pushes me away is how regulated it is. There are so many rules, and punishments for breaking rules. For me, in competition, these things start to take some of the fun out of something that I do purely for pleasure. I'm paying to compete, so it must be because I enjoy it right? It seems to be a bit more laid back in indoor competition, and that is something I will continue to compete in.
Your views on the Rev forum got me thinking a bit, but after pondering a bit, I grew to agree to an extent. I think the majority of the users on this forum are open minded, and are often not afraid of asking those difficult questions. The trouble seems to be that it gets censored. Now, these are just my observations. I understand that the administrators of this forum do everything that they do for a reason. There was in interesting thread not to long ago that I noticed was removed. I will not go into detail. At any rate, I think that there is a bit of that "narrow-mindedness" present through the censoring.
Now, the major difference between Rev forum and Kitelife forum is that the Rev forum is owned by a kite supplier, while Kitelife is owned by John B. and his online magazine. If discussion is going on under the domain of a particular company, it would be unwise for the company to allow content that could potentially harm the company. If discussion is going on under the domain of an individual/magazine, there is not as much content that could be potentially harmful. Does that make sense? I had to sit and think for a while to come up with this, and it is hard for me to explain.....
Thanks for the thought provoking post Duane
~Spencer "Watty" Watson
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signed
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Damn! You'all have a way of asking the wrong questions. :confused!:
Like Billamm mentioned how he liked the resessed lid on my Quad Box...and I had to go into a long explaination of how I nailed it together wrong...and the top didn't cover the box!!
OK...The big "BLACK DOT" WAS a yin-yang symbol, well...it was suppose to be a yin-yang symbol, but I screwed it up and the eyes came out crocked...sort of like in the wrong place. And when I tried to fix it...things went to hell worse then just being crosseyed...then I tried to remove the paint and it turned into a big gray blobe...with the only possible solution being a big "Black Dot"!
But, I convinced "Elvira" that it really looks great, so don't mention anything about it should we ever be flying together!
Keep It Up!
Duane
rofl
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I am going to guess that this is the picture you referred to.
It's kind of difficult for me to tell what it is that you did, but it looks like you filled up a bit of the "v" under the Revolution logo between the two wings of the kite, is this correct? I'm not sure if I am looking at it right because the piece that I think might be the venting looks like just grey fabric...
Would it be possible for you to add some more pictures without the stuff behind it, and maybe from some other angles so we can get a better idea of what it is?
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Wow Wow! Not only is he flying on a thin side walk next to a semi-busy street, but he's doing it on a Rev II, and a soaking wet rev II at that! Thanks for the footage, very cool.
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how good a pilot are you??? 0= not very good yet 10= very good, years of experience
I would rate myself somewhere between 0.314856 and 1
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Yeah...well, what does that mean. As a 0.314856 to a 1...what can and can't you do? As a 5 or 7 what can and can't they do? (I know that John is off the charts---so don't count him in on this).
Keep It Up!
Duane
The way I thought about it was, 0= first time with a rev, and 10= John B., or Steve D. I gave myself a 9ish. I suppose a 5 could be competent... having down the basics, and maybe a basic hover.
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To the best of my knowledge, LaserPro does NOT provide tied line sets any longer...
Any discrepancies you may run into would come down to the store or distributor that tied them.
One other shop who specializes in both spools and tied line sets that I didn't see mentioned is The Kite Shoppe.
Yes, it all comes down to the person that tied them. All of the line sets that I have I either made myself, or were made by Theresa at The Kite Shoppe.
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1) How long were you flying your Rev. before flying in a group fly?
First time I tried was one year after I started flying, but the only time I had flown before this was for a week one year earlier. I did nt yet own a rev. I could not stick with it long, as I could not control my speed.
The first time I was able to stay with it was a year later, where I was doing blenders, and benefits along side iQuad.
2) Where were you flying at?Long Beach, WA WSIKF
3) What did you have to do?I wouldn't say there was any thing I had to do but keep up.
Revolution 1.5 Frame Weights
in Quad Heads
Posted
As I understand it, and correct me if I am wrong, a French bridle is a modified bridle that moves the tow points outward. This bridle system is used to help with tricking.
Magic sticks are sticks that point off the back of the sail on both sides. They are commonly referred to as Quad Sticks, and Sissy Sticks.