Beginners tips and tricks

[povlhp]

Was out with my Freilein Transeye quad for the first time today. Wind was really too low but this was the time slot I could get this weekend.

Wind seemed to average 1.8-2.2 m/s with some gusts. That is around 4 mph so in the low end for a beginner. I am glad I had read a lot and seen the videos.

Skills I found important on the first session was being able to turn the upside down kite around., and walking backwards to help bring it up.

In the beginning I countered turns by pulling top on other side adding more speed. That was bad. Then I remembered what I had read about making turns by braking the opposite side. And that worked fine most of the time. When wind was too low, I seemed to stall and the kite floated down. Had some spins I could not stop and a few hard crashes, and the kite falling forward so I had to walk and turn it over.

But I had a good time

[Wayne Dowler]

If a crash can not be avoided - GIVE TO THE KITE!! Take a few steps forward and throw your hands out at the kite. This takes all the power out of the impact and can save broken rods, or worse a ripped sail!

5-10 mph seems to be a good learner's wind speed - not too much wind to lose control, but enough that you can concentrate of commands, not just keeping the kite airborne!

[povlhp]

Read about this give to the kite. So did it a few times. But in the beginning, I was trying to correct it, and the wrong way (pulling the top - thus giving more speed). It is all about learning. And as people says here, having an experienced guy look over your shoulders would save time. I don't have any, and the local kite shop (in a backyard, living off Internet sales), does not even have a single Quad on their webpage, even though they are a HQ reseller (HQ Mojo is their model).

As for wind, on the German forum, they recommend 10 km/h = 2.8 m/s = 6 mph or more for beginners on the Rev, and 15 km/h = 9 mph = 4 m/s on the Transeye. (My German is only slightly better than Google Translate, so I write very little there). So I was way under recommended wind range, and knew it. Just trying to see what I could get out of it. But I had quite a few times where the kite fell flat face down, so I had to walk to it to turn it around.

The Transeye does not have a leading edge the same way as the Rev, it has 2 triangles protruding, and it is the rod there that hits the ground on impact. Not the long leading edge. Guess this might make it more forgiving for beginners. But I have extra rods on the way. They are like the 3-wrap and around $10 a piece.

After having had tangled lines on first attempt unrolling factory lines from winder, this time I had switched to the other strategy. First set rolled up in 8, and the second set straight on the same winder. Takes a bit longer setting up / taking down, but much faster than untangling lines.

After some heavy rotations, I struggled to mentally find out what way to switch handles to get it unrolled. Instinct told me to switch them reverse of the turn, but that was growing. You have the follow the same turns at the handle end to straighten things.

Had to shower the kite when I got home, as the grassy field was more muddy than I thought after lots of rain the last few days.

[John Barresi]

Different kite, but still applicable.

I'm guessing that applying some of this will help with understanding, and identify other root issues.

[makatakam]

There are four other flyers not too far from you, Esbjerg, Hillerod, Ballerup, and Hamburg. Click on "Map" at the top of this page. Send each of them a PM here on this forum, and get on the Revolution forum and do the same.

Flying with an experienced flyer will help very much. Go to any festival you can, will save you much frustration. I drive 250 miles if I must. Just do it, you won't regret it.

[John Barresi]

The Transeye does not have a leading edge the same way as the Rev, it has 2 triangles protruding, and it is the rod there that hits the ground on impact. Not the long leading edge. Guess this might make it more forgiving for beginners.

Quite the opposite, because all impact is taken into two little points... On a straight leading edge, the impact is spread throughout the frame and absorbed / released more readily.

[Wayne Dowler]

I also used the same winding method for a bit. Then I was flying with John B. and we had a little discussion of line winding methods. So I started out doing it his way on my shortest set - 30'. That was no trouble, so I moved up to 80', and again no issues. Finally went to my 120' set and still no issues, so now all my sets are done exactly alike. And that's the key - finding a method that works for you and OWNING it! Do it the same way, every time, and do it yourself, then there is no one else to blame if there are problems.

[povlhp]

Thanks JB I already saw these, and they helped a lot. Also saw the low wind video. So I moved further and further back. Never recovered much ground.

Your videos makes things look too easy. And maybe you need one with these basics. I found a flying rev pdf book. It keeps stressing brake to turn. Not something I remember from your videos

[John Barresi]

Remember, the TransEye has a totally different profile than a Rev... Same basic inputs, but it has a higher weight > sail ratio, less flex across the face of the kite and less cupping in the belly so while I've never flown one myself, every pic I've seen of it shows a flatter center and I'm certain that it does not generate the same degree of drive and lift.

Compare Rev photos with those, imagine how the wind bends the frame and moves across the sail... Both fruit, but still apples and oranges.

Re applying brake to turn... In the launch and control tutorial, also the figure eight (maybe), I believe I talk about "squeezing" your ring finger for turns... This is application of brake, albeit in controlled doses (not enough to truly brake - more of a speed control in one wing).

[John Barresi]

May sounds like a "Rev promotion" but it's really not, just design facts.

[povlhp]

On the German forums they say beginners should have more wind, but also that it will continue flying when most non-vented revs are down. At 220 grams it is a bit heavier. Since vertical rods are away from sail it flexes quite fine. But also not the same continuous leading edge bulge that gives revs a little more lift.

For me, the ring finger explanation did not do it. Maybe fine for semi experienced. I do larger movements for now. I like the braking explanation better.

When I have basics in place I will look at the videos again.

Still need to figure out the right trim at the handles. Will need to get a stable hover first.

[John Barresi]

Sounds like you're on the path, questions are always welcome - sometimes I'm preoccupied and can't reply, but will usually get around to it eventually, if some of the other knowledgeable folks here don't cover it first.

[Wayne Dowler]

got a pic of the handles? You mention trim, we use long top leaders on our handles to adjust. Wondering what system they use, if any?

I try to find a neutral position for my setup. Don't want the kite going in any direction by itself. I want to be the one telling it where to go, not having the wind dictate direction.

[povlhp]

Handles are the same. 13" so shorter than JB uses I think. 2 knots below. 6 or 7 above.

[povlhp]

Hi John, I really appreciate your effort and answers here. And I am surprised that you seem to be the most neutral and unbiased here despite your rev connections.

As I said, I am new in this. My kite experience is mostly the type that you open at altitude (parachute). It is turned by braking at one side as well (creating lift in the process). Did some CReW as well. Canopy Relative Work or open parachute formation. Largest stack I was in was 8 people.

So I understand some basics of aerodynamics and a flexible wing. But a 1 layer kite is different. And a quad has almost an impossible angle of attack.

[John Barresi]

My pleasure - polarity is natural with most people but I'm about kiting, what's good or not is relative, and facts tend to prove themselves with enough info and experimentation.

If I understand right, the parachute type you're referring to may be like a paraglider which does use aerodynamics but mainly in a drag (falling/gliding) sense, as opposed to a face-on pressure scenario like the 2/4 line controllable kites... I've been flying both dual and quad for 24 years - while I earned a rep for my skills early on, I didn't actually "see" what was happening in flight until 2006, takes time - just keep having fun with it, looking from all sides.

This channel remains open!

[Wayne Dowler]

Knots sound about right then.

`Try this experiment - let the top lines all the way out - will it launch? No? Move them in a knot and try again until you can launch easily. Use the outer knot on the bottom to start, a bit easier that way. After a while of learning, try moving the tops out a knot and see if you can still fly them. Sometimes after flying some, your preferences will change and you still get all the control by using more brakes.

[povlhp]

Read this, tried starting at knot 3, and moved to knot 4. Really had too little wind, so had the tilt back a lot to lift off. In wind gusts it came up easily. That is why I talk about finding the balance on a day with better wind (next 2 weeks supposedly wet, maybe sunday will be OK).

The parachute (ram air or foil type) is in many ways comparable to kites. I am under the surface, gravity pulls in me and thus the lines. Steering handles curves the back side of the chute. It is packed with the brake lines half-way down for a neutral fly, and easier inflation. Letting go, and speed increases. Pulling brakes, and you slow down, and sometimes even feels how the parachute will lift you. You can pull front risers to turn as well, or to get more speed. But very hard on larger square parachutes (I have a 150 sq.ft for 200+ lbs of load). The elipticals are easier to fly from front risers.

The main difference to kites is probably that wind pushes, and not body weight pulling. And gravity is somewhat like drag. So more or less the same principles, turned 90 degrees, except stalls are very different (and difficult to make on a parachute, which will normally stay inflated). But then the added complexity of the wind window which can be considered as large AoA changes.

With a parachute your speed and movement is relative to the wind around you, and you can ignore the earth apart from gravity. You might go backwards relative to the ground, but still move 30 mph forward. With the kite it is different in that both wind and ground comes into play (you can walk to get more airspeed).

As relatively new to kites, I feel some of my skyding experience, and feeling of the wind and power under the canopy translates into at least basic understandings of the forces.

[John Barresi]

Have you looked into the "sail loading" tutorial yet?

The Rev has a lot of flex which is what makes this technique work so well, not so sure about the TransEye which seems a lot more rigid.

Still, sail loading is how we overcome what FEELS like too much brake... Tuning Theory I covers a lot of the dynamics at hand too.

[povlhp]

Looked at the sail loading, and the tuning videos. In the tuning video, you actually talk about using brakes to turn. I knew some of the stuff on some level, other was new, little overlap with the low wind video. Personally, I learn better from text and pictures, or at least it sticks better than trying to absorb all details on the videos. I can remember the words I have read, when I am in the situation, much better than I can remember/visualize video. But we all learn in different ways. And you are doing lots of minor adjustments all the time without thinking about it.

One things that is not clear for me is, that is the hover position on your handles ? Top little bit in front of vertical ? Or depends on wind ? I can always take off with lines at the outer knots on the handles, it is just a question of how much to bendt the hands/arms backwards.

Or is the advice to use the outermost knot where you can just take off, the point where you can take off with no/very little bend ? of the arms/wrists with hands in a neutral a position as possible ?

As the vertical spars on the Transeye are floating freely behing the crossbar aka leading edge on the Rev, there are a lot of flex, but the fact that the sail is both in front of, and behind the LE rod will limit it some. Pulling hard will naturally give most of the flex behind the LE, which is a bend/pivot point for the verticals. Some of the germans tried to move the verticals in front of the LE, but that was giving too much wear on the fabric, so it is usable, but not recommended.

[Wayne Dowler]

Not a question that I think much about anymore. I guess the best way for me to describe it, is to have the ability to still go in any direction from the hover. By that I mean, don't get in so extreme a position that you get "stuck". I've found my "neutral" to be a comfortable spot that I can hold for a long time! 2 years ago at a festival, we had a 9x9 grid - 81 fliers up at once. We were up for over 30 minutes, building the grid, flying moves, then breaking the grid. It has to be something you can maintain for as long as you want!

Just my take on the tutorials - try breaking them down to more simple terms, like just watch the feet, or just watch the hands. Smaller chunks of information to swallow at a time!, rather than trying to learn the whole tutorial at once. Did this for all the indoor tutorials and pretty much learned indoor flight of my Rev from them! YMMV

[John Barresi]

Looked at the sail loading, and the tuning videos. In the tuning video, you actually talk about using brakes to turn. I knew some of the stuff on some level, other was new, little overlap with the low wind video. Personally, I learn better from text and pictures, or at least it sticks better than trying to absorb all details on the videos. I can remember the words I have read, when I am in the situation, much better than I can remember/visualize video. But we all learn in different ways. And you are doing lots of minor adjustments all the time without thinking about it.

I'm even adjusting how I describe things, as my understanding continues to evolve.

One things that is not clear for me is, that is the hover position on your handles ? Top little bit in front of vertical ? Or depends on wind ? I can always take off with lines at the outer knots on the handles, it is just a question of how much to bendt the hands/arms backwards.

This is very wind dependent especially on a Rev, because the more it flexes, the more the trailing edge flares out (= more forward drive)... It also depends on where I have my kite tuned, what frame I'm using and how much venting there is.

Or is the advice to use the outermost knot where you can just take off, the point where you can take off with no/very little bend ? of the arms/wrists with hands in a neutral a position as possible ?

Sail loading makes this a hard question to answer fully... I mean, if you just bend your arms, you're basically forcing the angle of the handles/kite but may or may not be cupping the sail in order to create pressure... With a Rev, when you use "whump" and load the sail, it's like a siphon, creating drive until you hit the brakes and break that power siphon.

Anyone here have a link to my best explanation of "whump? I did a search but couldn't come up with a good one.

As the vertical spars on the Transeye are floating freely behing the crossbar aka leading edge on the Rev, there are a lot of flex, but the fact that the sail is both in front of, and behind the LE rod will limit it some. Pulling hard will naturally give most of the flex behind the LE, which is a bend/pivot point for the verticals. Some of the germans tried to move the verticals in front of the LE, but that was giving too much wear on the fabric, so it is usable, but not recommended.

I'd be curious to see how the TransEye looks in flight through a variety of maneuvers, it may be that it's incapable of the type of sail loading we're talking about here... Hard to say without a good visual to work from.

[John Barresi]

Okay, did a little YouTube research...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY1AUv1A-6I

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HwVkq1jXlEo

Right off, I can see that when you do what we'd normally call sail loading or "whump" it, the wing tips actually bend in toward the pilot, creating a slight "U" form if one was to look at it (directly) from the leading or trailing edge... Basically, instead of maintaining it's core form, the kite is giving and releasing the pressure you're trying to make rather than cupping it (which increases pressure exponantially). So, it appears it's primarily limited to the basic handle / angle inputs.

Also, because of where the "leading edge" spar runs through the kite, it's not creating a true wing (which requires a hard edge like a plane or glider wing)... So I think the flight is more like a wind power marionette, as opposed to a power-generating wing... In part also, because the face of the kite doesn't change profile very much compared to a Rev, which compresses and releases the trailing edge when loaded up, powering up the wing.

Just my 2 cents after watching these vids, and the pilots do appear to be competent for what it's worth.

[povlhp]

This video, at 1:34 we have a view from the side of a compression (Rev pilot flying).

It is very clear that it bends the ends in towards the pilot, quite a lot actually, but the back of the wing as well, so it will cup some, but less effective. Looking quickly in Photoshop, it seems like aft tip is close to 10-20% of the width pulled back initially. (20% of 240cm = 25-50 cm depending on which side. And the ends are around half that, so probably 20 cm / 2 inches flex from center to wingtip.

But it seems like it is cupping and accelerating from that in the video. But there is lots of wind to help.But it surely is flexible (the included rods are supposedly P200 aka 3-wrap type but more flexible). Making it stiffer did no good for the germans who tried. But it covers a large wind range. Will take every frame from P90 to SLE. 4-wrap will not fit the end-caps. The SLE supposedly brings nothing, as the Transeye is designed to live from the flexibility, so SLE kills some of this dynamics, and make reverse flying very bad. For stronger wind some prefers Rev 3-wrap center, 2 wrap sides.

Another video with a vented Transeye and a Rev 1.5 UL in the end. The transeye is much slower. One reason it is recommended for beginners.

[John Barresi]

Hrm, I see what you're referring to but it's hard to speak further on this without flying it myself.

Side note - most pilots still have too much forward (shorter leaders at the top - makes the kite faster and harder to control) on their Revs, even the B-Series package needs an additional 3"-4" of extension on top to reach a natural and true neutral fulcrum on the handles... Rev insists on not including it longer, because they feel that people won't be able to launch with that much brake - only slightly true, as it just takes a little more information to know how the drive initiates (whump).

Have you been able to share a field with other more experienced quad fliers?

And, have you had an opportunity to actually compare the TransEye and a properly tuned Rev side by side?