Picking a Freestyle Kite

[redsweater]

I'm not a total beginner, but I figured this was the place to ask. I've recently caught the freestyle bug (hard).

I currently own a Prism Quantum, and I am very comfortable flying it, but getting frustrated at trying to get it to do tricks. It's fairly heavy, and I don't live near a good place to fly it. I take it to the beach a couple times each summer, but the wind can be heavy and I really have to run at it to stall it. I've gotten it to do axels pretty good, I think. I've just recently learned about the radical bridle setting. I'm ready to try that out on my next outing, but I haven't tried it yet. Does it make the kite more trickable, or just snappier in the turns?

My frustration led me to explore other avenues (I bought a Revolution EXP and am thinking about trying KAP), but I don't want to give up on freestyle. So, I'm looking for a freestyle kite under $200. (If it's not much over, feel free to break that rule, though.) Maybe a UL would help me get more flying time closer to home, but I really just want something to help me get into tricks. I don't think I can commit to the cost a Quantum Pro or Nirvana yet. I'm sure there must be some kites out there that offer a lot of fun for a lot less money.

Any ideas?

I expect I may hear an endorsement of John's ITW Kymera. I'm also looking at the Prism E3. But there are so many brands out there that I'm only now hearing about, and I'm not at all familiar with their product lines, let alone how they fly.

[Spence Watson]

Hehe, I'll make that Kymera endorsement. It's the only dual line that I own, and I love it. I've been flying dual line for just under a year, and I've been able to get most tricks down. Half axels, cascades, insanes, yo-yos.. etc. I have not made any adjustments to mine, and they should fly well out of the bag. It isn't the lightest kite, but I've run 360s with it on more than a few occasions. I see the price at $225 at TKS

Here's a video of John and I playing with the Kymera yesterday:

[the transporter]

awesome video spence, I really like the way you guys make them dance like that, I hope to be that good someday. I was wondering how well the kymera holds up to hard hits like when your learning? I have bought kites at the store since I was little and was never able to fly them I had a dozen plastic stunt kites that never left the ground lol, but this last weekend I was at the coast camping and went to see the wizard in cannon beach, I ended up buying an air vantage kite for $30 and took it to the sand and I had a blast flying it. the kite seemed to actually perform well for a cheap kite, but I have no comparison, I did crash quite a few times and it held up well in the sand so thats where I'm at as far as buying an expensive kimera and wasting it learning what might you recomend? also I see a few videos posted of flying at p.i.r. is that a good local spot for some good wind?

[Spence Watson]

awesome video spence, I really like the way you guys make them dance like that, I hope to be that good someday. I was wondering how well the kymera holds up to hard hits like when your learning? I have bought kites at the store since I was little and was never able to fly them I had a dozen plastic stunt kites that never left the ground lol, but this last weekend I was at the coast camping and went to see the wizard in cannon beach, I ended up buying an air vantage kite for $30 and took it to the sand and I had a blast flying it. the kite seemed to actually perform well for a cheap kite, but I have no comparison, I did crash quite a few times and it held up well in the sand so thats where I'm at as far as buying an expensive kimera and wasting it learning what might you recomend? also I see a few videos posted of flying at p.i.r. is that a good local spot for some good wind?

Well, if it's any consolation, I learned on a Kymera. I had flown dual lines a bit about 5 or 6 years ago, but had abandoned them in favor of revs, so I wasn't completely learning from scratch, but I was never very proficient with a dualie back then anyway. In the one year that I have been flying my Kymera, I think I have broken one bottom spreader, shattered a wing tip, and had the ferule slip, making me think I broke it. The bottom spreader broke right at the center T, and I don't really have much of an explanation for it. The wing tip shattering could have been prevented. The kite comes with vinyl end caps to use when flying over hard surfaces. I didn't use them while flying in a very rocky field, so the arrow knock broke off. And the ferule slipping happens with any kite with a feruled leading edge.

I've not been flying dual line for a terribly long time, so there's only so much input I can give, but it took me getting my hands on a decent kite for me to really get interested in dual line.

As far as p.i.r. (Delta Park West) goes....... eh. It's close, it's accessible, and there's a decent bit of space of slightly maintained lawn. The wind is intermittent at most times. It's not Long Beach, I can tell you that, but as far as local spots goes, it's probably got the best wind for a place of its size. I usually go to Frenchman's bar, near the Port of Vancouver. The wind is usually nicer there, but it's a smaller place, and it isn't very accessible for those that take the Tram to Delta.

[RobB]

Another quick plug for the Kymera. in the ~$200 range, it's good bang for the buck. It can fly square corners, and is crazy tricky if that's how you like to fly. I would recommend against the E3, it's the boat anchor of the Prism line-up. I love the way mine looks, but hate the way it flies. Another option is to buy second hand, I got a number of $300-$400 kites for around ~$200 that way.

My Kymera video...

[Hoodoo]

What are the (approx) wind speeds in the above video?

[RobB]

What are the (approx) wind speeds in the above video?

The wind was all over the place, in the process of swinging around, NE to W. Where you see the kite almost falling out of the air, 3 mph. When you can hear the sail, 10-15mph. Hopefully the video shows the versatility of the Kymera.

~Rob.

[redsweater]

Thanks to Spence and Must. Sounds like you guys really enjoy the Kymera. I'll take that into serious consideration. Our budget is not overflowing. My wife managed to convince me to splurge on a nice DSLR for her recently, for her combined bday, V-day, anniversary, and Mother's Day gift. (Yes, those all happen in a few short months for her, right after Christmas, too. Oy vey.) I could probably justify something nice, but I don't want to start a spending war. But if the Kymera is good enough to be Spence's only dual kite...maybe I could stretch for it.

Must, do you really own all the kites in your sig's slideshow? Wow. Also, can you clarify the "boat anchor" comment? Is it just not responsive? Prism rates the E3's speed as "Moderate - Fast".

[RobB]

The E3 is a huge disappointment to me. So much so that it has been in the basement for the last 2 years. Mine was poorly assembled and exploded in mid-air the second time out of the bag. In a 15mph wind... I know the rating is 25mph for the high end, but don't believe it. Prism fixed the huge gashes in the sail with teldar tape and returned it to me in less than 3 months. I could've done that in less than 15 minutes. I've heard that this has happened to others with the E3, but these were all from the early batches in 2009.

The E3 can be tuned to fly acceptably, but not impressively like other kites in the same range. You would be a lot better off going for a Zephyr if you're stuck on the Prism line.

~Rob.

BTW... I haven't updated my slideshow in a while, there are a few more to add... 8)

[Hadge]

You could also take a look at the Flying Wings Silver Fox range. Nice kites, well built with a good spec and very tricky but still beginner friendly. The standard Kite ( rather than the UL) will cover you from around 4-20 mph and prices are around $160. The 2.3 standard is a bit quicker and trickier, the 2.5 standard is a bit bigger and slower flying but will still do the tricks. I have the slightly more expensive Soul and it's a really nice kite.

[John Barresi]

One more FYI on the Kymera, it's framed with P300 Skyshark... Very inexpensive spars as far as kites in this class go, probably somewhere around $6-$8 a stick (someone may correct me on that), whereas some kites are framed with Skyshark 3PT or similar, which run more than $10 per stick.

You got a lot of good feedback here... As long as you study a bit and use common sense, you'll have a blast with any of the aforementioned kites.

Remember, they're just like cars - each has it's own feel, different handling, different acceleration, etc.

That's half of what makes it fun, and why most folks own at least 2 kites after a spell.

[redsweater]

Thanks. I've only ever broken one spar (must not be flying enough, huh?) and had difficulty figuring out the specs for a replacement. I do see on the Kymera listing at The Kite Shoppe that it says the spars are Sky Shark, but doesn't specifiy beyond that. How am I to know what type of spars I'll need before I buy a kite? Or even after I buy, is the information printed on the spar (like this)?

Anyway, I think I am settled on the Kymera.* (I wonder when lime will be back in stock? I've already got red and blue in my kite bag.) I do need to pick up a line set (the Quantum's is 85' of 150#), and that will get me even further over my preferred budget. The Kite Shoppe recommends 120' of 90#. I see they sell exclusively LPG line. What would be the difference if I bought, say, ITW's 200' of 90# and made a set about 100' long (and cut/sleeved it myself) at around half the cost? Is it not pre-stretched? How would losing 20' of line affect flight?

Sorry, I 'm just full of questions.

* Edit: I dunno, the Silver Fox is looking pretty good now. And it conforms to my budget better. Gosh, I'm so indecisive. Wait a min...yes, yes I am. The simple answer is to buy both. j/k

So, the 2.5 vented has the same lower wind speed range (because of the "channelled tunnel", I presume)? What's the downside to a vented kite, then?

Was just able to locate Silver Fox replacement spars (already cut to length, apparently) at about $12 per. Can't find the raw materials, don't know if they'd be cheaper.

[Spence Watson]

Thanks. I've only ever broken one spar (must not be flying enough, huh?) and had difficulty figuring out the specs for a replacement. I do see on the Kymera listing at The Kite Shoppe that it says the spars are Sky Shark, but doesn't specifiy beyond that. How am I to know what type of spars I'll need before I buy a kite? Or even after I buy, is the information printed on the spar (like this)?

Yes, any Skyshark rods are printed exactly like that. The stock rods in the Kymera are P300. If you ever break anything on pretty much any dual line, Theresa from The Kite Shoppe is very knowledgeable about the specs for a bunch of kites, and can guide you through the process of repair.

Anyway, I think I am settled on the Kymera.* (I wonder when lime will be back in stock? I've already got red and blue in my kite bag.) I do need to pick up a line set (the Quantum's is 85' of 150#), and that will get me even further over my preferred budget. The Kite Shoppe recommends 120' of 90#. I see they sell exclusively LPG line. What would be the difference if I bought, say, ITW's 200' of 90# and made a set about 100' long (and cut/sleeved it myself) at around half the cost? Is it not pre-stretched? How would losing 20' of line affect flight?

Sorry, I 'm just full of questions.

The line sets from The Kite Shoppe are great. The lines that I use are 85' and 120' 90lb LPG. Laser Pro is a great line, and that's all I ever use. Granted, LPG is very much the standard for quad line flying, as is my focus, and as I understand it, the benefits of LPG are not as important on dual line, and some even prefer Shanti, which is another fine brand.

Theresa's process for making line sets is great. Every set is pre-stretched and perfectly equal. I am unfamiliar with Kent's (ITW) process, but I'm pretty sure he pre-stretches and all that as well, and I've never heard a single complaint about his lines.

As far as cutting down a 200' line set to make a 100' line set, just remember that some of the line will be used up when tying new loops and the like. So, a 200' line set would not be cut down into two 100' line sets, but maybe more like 100' and 90' or something. This is perfectly do-able, and my only concern is whether or not you are flying alone. If you are ever wanting to fly with someone else, you will want your lines to be close in length. 120' is the team standard for quad line, and I think the most common lengths for dual line are ~120' and ~85'.

* Edit: I dunno, the Silver Fox is looking pretty good now. And it conforms to my budget better. Gosh, I'm so indecisive. Wait a min...yes, yes I am. The simple answer is to buy both. j/k

So, the 2.5 vented has the same lower wind speed range (because of the "channelled tunnel", I presume)? What's the downside to a vented kite, then?

Sorry, I don't know enough to be able to answer this bit.

[redsweater]

Sorry, I don't know enough to be able to answer this bit.

Thanks for sharing the rest, though. Everyone's been very helpful in here.

[John Barresi]

Questions are good, carry on!

You hit the spar right on the head, the Kite Shoppe link you shared is the right one - and a good source.

==

100' is fine, I'm usually between 85' and 120'.

For a good reference on how line lengths and weight affect flight, check out this tutorial... It's for Rev, but the same principles apply.

==

Regarding vented dual lines... I think 99% of the experienced fliers will attest, a vented dual line is never as good as a full sail.

Unlike a Rev, where venting makes the kite more precise, it usually compromises BOTH the performance and lower wind range on dualies.

All just imho, of course.

[redsweater]

To follow up, I solicited some opinions from the GWTW forums (not that the opinions over here weren't great), and discovered the Bargain board over there. Steve had a FW SF 2.3 UL Pro up for a great price, and I took it. I'm really excited about trying it out!

I think I was hesitant about ULs -- perhaps a little about the lawn-darting issue (though I think those days are mostly past me), but probably more about the wind range. I do hit up the beach a few times a year, but I think this UL will suit the winds I get in my neck of the woods, and hopefully result in more flying time. And I've learned that there are a lot of good, tricky standards out there that don't cost a whole lot (it looks like the GWTW swap meet is hot with discounted used ones, too), so I can always add one to my bag later.