Hi all from the East of England

[Gladders]

Hi everyone, 

I've been flying a foil for a few years now.  Just over a year ago I almost lost my beloved HQ symphony to a tv aerial, and started to look to see what else was out there. I saw some videos of tricks on deltas that could never work with a foil. 

So I bought a sport kite. I see it as being a form of active meditation, though it's more frustrating that the foil which is a really calming experience.  I'd like to be much more competent. Practice, practice, practice.

[ACrop]

I think that it likely every form of meditation, activity based or traditional meditation, is likely not always smooth and meditatively rewarding in the learning curve phase. You were right, practice practice practice. Good luck.

(What IS the sound of one hand clapping??)

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using KiteLife mobile app

[makatakam]

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

[Breezin]

 Patience, persistence, precision. Ingraining the 3 p's has made my practice,practice, practice a lot more rewarding. Bought a sport kite for rehab and it has become much,much more. Kite junky should be a song title. After much contemplation the sound of one hand clapping is whoosh. I think 😕.Could be wrong though. Guess I'll have to think on it some more 🤔.

[Exult]

On 10/8/2018 at 7:59 PM, Gladders said:

So I bought a sport kite. I see it as being a form of active meditation, though it's more frustrating that the foil which is a really calming experience.  I'd like to be much more competent

I assume the sport kite is a two line delta kite for tricks and/or precision? Do you know the model and brand of this kite? What do you find frustrating and which tricks (if that is what you are aiming for)  are closest to be within reach?

AND Welcome here @Gladders!!

Ahh, I saw from https://kitelife.com/forum/topic/9281-kite-buying-tips/ that that you have an HQ Limbo kite. Also saw from that topic that crash avoidance and stall/tricks practice was a thing. I think that you should not wait for a new kite to learn - use the time until you get one.

Wait for a day of low wind (which should be beneficial for the survival of your kite) and you can practice stalls and powering the kite on and off which also is useful when giving to the kite before a crash. A kite in the non-powered "falling leaf" mode will not break on impact with the ground.

To get free from the idea (and learn you hands to do it as well) that the kite must constantly rush forward do "barely flying": start the kite, let it reach about 40cm and let it sink back (nose still pointing upwards). Repeat with 80cm, 1.60m etc... Try to hold it a few seconds (yes, this would be a stall) at the "highest" point. Then start and fly to the top of the wind window (backing might be required), turn so that the nose points downwards. Walk towards the kite and try to gain ground (moving downwinds) while the kite is going downwards. Landing normally is now an option. Another way is to extend your arms just above the ground (fight the urge to pull the lines to steer away from the ground!) to do a belly landing. It should not be destructive even if the belly landing fails since you are extending your arms (that is moving them from you - not keeping the arms extended). Then try launching from the belly landed position by a quick tug on one of the lines.

Good luck!!

[Gladders]

Thanks @Exult, I appreciate your advice.  I'll try those low drills. By belly, do you mean the back of the kite, so that the lines are on top?

I had a close look at the limbo last night.  One side of the bridle was 6mm nearer the nose that the other,  and the flying line on that side was about 25mm longer. No wonder it was hard to control. I wonder how different it will be more that I've corrected those issues. 

[Exult]

5 minutes ago, Gladders said:

I'll try those low drills. By belly, do you mean the back of the kite, so that the lines are on top?

Low (mostly) and low wind. After a successful belly landing the bridle side is on the ground and the nose is pointing away from you. See also:

http://fracturedaxel.co.uk/wiki9/tiki-index.php?page=Pancake

http://www.idemployee.id.tue.nl/p.j.f.peters/kites/basics/Duallinetricks.Landings.html#bellylanding

[Breezin]

Sunday I went up in very low winds. I'd go up and curve right back to the ground. Embarrassed to say this far into flying it took awhile to figure out my lines needed equalizing. Off by about 5 or 6mm. Makes a huge difference. The launch Exult describes is my favorite way to get in the air. The last link he posted I use the most.

[Exult]

On 10/11/2018 at 11:35 PM, Breezin said:

Sunday I went up in very low winds. I'd go up and curve right back to the ground. Embarrassed to say this far into flying it took awhile to figure out my lines needed equalizing. Off by about 5 or 6mm. Makes a huge difference.

I take this is a very polite way(/example of) of encouraging checking of kite gear/kite that otherwise could be a contributing source of the frustration.

[Gladders]

5 hours ago, Exult said:

I take this is a very polite way(/example of) of encouraging checking of kite gear/kite that otherwise could be a contributing source of the frustration.

And of saying that,  if 5mm was making his life difficult, then 25mm would be making mine all but impossible. I can't believe I didn't check before. 🙄

[Breezin]

Think you'll find out your Limbo is not a bad kite at all for a newbie. Think it's a decent high wind kite no matter your skill set.Would really like to poke fun at you.Saying things like DUH. No one did it to me so I'll refrain.Sunday was definitely another DUH moment for me. Had another one yesterday. I really don't want to remember how many DUHs I've had learning this stuff. Good thing is I've learned to laugh at myself like never before .

[makatakam]

If you truly want a Zen experience, you must learn to fly quads. At first it will be even more frustrating than flying a dual, but with time you will learn to control the beast. Then you will become one with the wind. The journey will not end.

[Gladders]

19 hours ago, makatakam said:

If you truly want a Zen experience, you must learn to fly quads.

I really don't need any encouragement on this score.  As for frustrating, I've watched some of the videos.  It looks dead easy. 😉

[Breezin]

I watched quite a few trick tutorials before I got my first kite. Got 3 tricks down pat the first time I flew . Nose dive left, nose dive center, nose dive right. Learned those before I could even land properly 😎. Dead easy. The next amazing trick I totally nailed was the awesome Lower Spreader Snap Whaaa . Not quite as simple as the others but pretty easy. As I've progressed the Lower Leading Edge Crack and Holy Blankity Blank Hole in the Sail tricks have appeared in a fairly easy manner. Not dead easy but close. The most advantageous trick I've learned is a compilation of these Zen like  maneuvers. Fly it, break it, fix it, fly it again.

[makatakam]

Crash and burn is usually the first trick in any flyers repertoire. (minus the burn part)

[Gladders]

Well, I've only broken one spar in maybe a dozen flights with the limbo,  so maybe I'm not doing too badly.  I've got squares fairly well and can land nicely either side of the window.  I've got a little bit of a right to left slide, though not so much of a left to right one. 

When I said the limbo was frustrating, i meant it was fast and a bit unpredictable.  The difference in line lengths and bridle will account for some of that,  but also it's a relatively small kite. 

Anyway, next time out I'm looking for a belly landing/take off, and a turtle. Just waiting for the wind. 

[Exult]

10 hours ago, Gladders said:

Anyway, next time out I'm looking for a belly landing/take off, and a turtle. Just waiting for the wind.

Don’t forget the slowing down and stall practice. The ground (when doing belly landings e.g.) tends to be difficult to negotiate with.

12 hours ago, makatakam said:

Crash and burn is usually the first trick in any flyers repertoire. (minus the burn part)

Would any thought of Neil Young be very far fetched (“My my, hey hey … It is better to burn out than to fade away”… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cawk2cMTnGo 🙂). But it if the destructive crash thing would happen once more @Gladders , well again welcome to the KL community of occasional kite crashers.

 

[Breezin]

My, my, hey, hey the search for the elusive sul will soon begin dare I say. Bet you won't have just one. Once you start holding the turtle start pulling the nose towards you. Then your in a type of fade. Do it high in the window to start because when you lose it the kite can power up nose screaming towards the ground. Haven't learned the Spine Shock Splinter trick yet. Close but I can live without it. Once the turtle and fade become fairly easy you'll find yourself trying other things pretty fast. The Limbo should be able to slide stall readily. Simple safe trick that for me is pretty hard to do. When you catch them the smooth glide across the window looks and feels really cool. I start my day and end it doing slides(trying to anyways)no matter the wind or kite. When you get a bigger slower kite you'll look back with appreciation on how the faster kite honed your reflexes.That advice don't forget to breath is sound. Sometimes I still forget to and fall over.Been going on for months now 😩. When I regain my senses I still always have a silly grin on my face though. You'll find that pacing your breathing to your inputs makes things smoother and you connect to the kite easier.Takes a while unless you're some kinda yoga, tai chi etc. type person.Keeps one calmer and more focused too. I don't fly with music yet. As I get better doing combos and figuring out routines music in the ear will become integral in progressing. For now I hum ,sing, whistle and mutter a lot. Mixed in with lots of yelps, whoops and laughter.

[Gladders]

@Breezin, I love this post. Your enthusiasm is infectious. As it happens, I am a yoga person and I think I breath with my movements when flying without really intending to. I know what you mean about the silly grin; it's a ridiculously satisfying way to spend some time, just noodling about in the sky.

An SUL you say. Interesting...

[Breezin]

Folks say low wind flying skills are the hardest to acquire. For me 0 to 4 and 25 to 30 mph have been the hardest. Both take finesse but the higher wind demands an extremely capable kite, fast reactions and very precise timing.The only 20+ trick kites I know that are consistently being  made with most models are Lam Hoac kites. My Mind Trick vented would be THE kite if I could only keep 1. The wind range is extraordinary. I can fly it in 4 to 5. Starts tricking in 6 and will fly over 30. Got it 2nd hand. Person said they'd only flown it once and I believe it. Heckuva deal. Very pricy new but Lams kite are  worth more than the money spent IMHO. When researching you'll find 2 general trains of thought on low wind kites.Some believe a sul should fly in o winds(Pro Dancer). Others will say that's not sul trick kite territory that's the 0 wind kite realm(Kaiju). Neither differing opinion has given me bad info. Just different. When looking at kites I try to see the builders goal at why their producing that kite for that wind range. Gets most confusing when looking at low wind kites. For low wind I have a Zephyr ul(production), Pro Dancer sul(custom) and a Tekken sul(used custom). All 3 fly very different. While the PD will fly very well from 1 mph up to 10 it has been the most difficult kite for me to learn out of all that I've flown. Well except getting my butt kicked by my Delta Hawk in 20+ and giving up on a Elliot Jet Stream Speed(WILL REVISIT). Recently 2 people flew my PD for a short while. Nice axles and 1/2 axles right off the bat. Burned their inputs into my brain and by golly it stuck. Couple posts about low wind at GWTW got me to thinking about mass and light inputs resulting in revisiting some past reads. Yesterday winds were 0 to 4 but mostly 0 to 2.Spent the day on the PD with a 50' line set. Best day ever with that kite by far. Connected with it when I 1st got it but lost it for a good while. Been coming back and yesterday it arrived. Kites a ballet precision kite and very hard to trick. In low winds inputs need to be very light and spot on or kite floats away on me. Builder said in light winds 60' or 65'  lines would probably be best. For now the 50' are fine because I can get under the kite or tension the lines easier. When I get some 50# Shanti to replace the dyneema lines it'll even get even better.Have a 50# by 120' Laser pro set and as you get better you'll find out the quality of lines really does make a difference.Today winds will be a little higher and I'll probably fly my Z. See how what I learned yesterday translates. It's a pretty methodical kite that responds real well to smooth fairly slow inputs in light winds. An advanced flier could probably do 95% of the known tricks on it. Not as fast, responsive or exciting as the Tekken but the kite I've learned the most on. I've flown it in 1 to 2. Not very well but getting better. Took  lots of hours to be able to do it. Tricks start coming at 3 to4. Handles nicely up to 15 mph. Rated to 18 but I've not found it very pleasant in the higher range.Very rewarding kite to fly. Wow I guess after this long winded rant I'm saying a Z would be a excellent next kite for you.The low wind knowledge is tough to gain but well worth the effort. Lot of walks of contemplation which is not a bad thing .Even the screaming in frustration is kinda fun .

[Gladders]

Can you still get the Zephyr? There's only one prism stockist in the UK that I know of and they don't carry it. Is it full size? The 4D looks interesting.  Small and very light. 

[Breezin]

It's full size. Heard last year the run was done. Don't actually know.It is full size and if under 200.00 U.S.I think it would be worth chasing. Prism has a international line and excellent customer service. Calling them might get you some good leads. I've just about pulled the trigger on a couple 3d deals and on more 4ds then I can remember. Don't want this to sound snobby but it kinda is. When 1st reading up on kites I took the advice buy the best you can afford and grow into it. So I did. So should you. So should every newbie. See kinda snobby. Keep in mind though that when I read about or see pics of a 30,40,50 or 60 kite collection I don't think that's excessive at all . Never flown  a 3d or 4d but have seen the 4d on the wall at Into The Wind kite shop. Nice looking kite. To me it seems like a tweener kite. Not really a indoor but close. Above five mph a lot of people think it's fast and twitchy. So not really a kite for the gusties where I live.That is remedied in a lot of fast twitchy kites with lighter inputs and great skills. I still struggle with both so I've bought other kites. Some folks think the 4d is tough. Others not so much. Another reason I think it's a tweener. 4d is awful light and I might have more in parts by now than the initial cost.I tend to go with 80% positive on a kite. I'm to kite poor to risk bad decisions even though there are some 50/50 kites I'd like to try. French Connection for one..I think the Level One Amazing Outdoor would be more up my alley.If I do get a 4d I think I'd like it. Kinda like fast easy to oversteer kites at times. I've read there are a few simple mods you can do on the 4d to stabilize it some. Some people tweak the bridles a bit. Small magnets along TE and wingtips.Nothing permanent and can go back to stock fast.The ease of modding the 4d is why I keep thinking about getting one. Could be a great little lower priced kite with the potential of having quite a few different characteristics I'd like . Just want a Widow Maker Pro sul a lot, lot more. See kinda snobby .

[Gladders]

7 hours ago, Breezin said:

buy the best you can afford and grow into it.

I know, I know, I know. But I didn't. I think you need a cheapie first, otherwise how would you know you've been bitten? You wouldn't just get a burning yearning for a stunt kite one day and go out and drop £100 (or more) on one just to see what it's like. I can see that if you've flown one at a festival or with a friend and you just know you've got to do more of it, then absolutely, the advice to shell out a bit is good - I'm sure it makes learning easier. That certainly holds true with musical instruments. 

Anyway, I'm building up a little stable. The Symphony for easy, soothing, mindless fun; the Limbo for higher winds, and the newly arrived Quantum for lighter winds and trick practise. That Quantum's a lot of kite. I can't believe the attention to detail and the neat little features, like the ability to adjust the pigtails in the straps to equalise the lines. On the other hand, I'm already starting to wonder if I should have been more ambitious. Oh well. It's my birthday in March. Plenty of time before then to think about what comes next. 

[Breezin]

17 hours ago, Gladders said:

  You wouldn't just get a burning yearning for a stunt kite one day and go out and drop £100 (or more) on one just to see what it's like.  

 Well that's how I started. Sorta. Got totally inspired by a guy flying in a wheelchair. Figured $30.00 would get me started. Kept reading and researching. Like RobB I am having to learn thru videos and forums.More difficult but has it's benefits too. Robs videos are fantastic. He's got some awesome kites.Thought I got a good deal on a E3. During that time I joined GWTW. Deal fell thru and glad it did. From what I've read the E2 is the better grab by a long ways. There's probably more than a few people happier than a pig in a puddle with their E3. Wish they'd speak up. It's a stunning looking kite.Talking with my wife she argued for the $30.00 kite. Make sure I'd like it and physically be able to do it. She watched some videos and was very doubtful that I could handle the pull.Took a bit but I can . Most of the time anyways. The Deltahawk and Hawaiian got some pull. Might like  never entered my mind. I became obsessed about attaining the advanced skills before I ever got a kite.Fun was a secondary thought but by golly it's more fun than I'd imagined.  I understood from these forums and videos that this stuff would not be easy. For me this is a sport not a hobby. For others vice versa.So I got the best I could  justify for the $. I was not prepared for the sudden need for another kite. Then another, then another. I like to think it's under control but another kite will be headed this way soon 😖.For a hobby with the "maybe I'll get hooked" kinda hard to disagree with the cheaper kites. Seen some pretty cool stuff done on a Bebop. People have a lot of fun a few times a year on $40.00 foils or single line kites mingling with other kite fliers enjoying the outdoors and don't give a hoot about a Taz Machine.Seen some folks get pretty ticked off when asking for info on a first or second kite and $150.00/$200.00 kites start being thrown at them. It's with good intent because most cheap kites suck or they're fast and hard to control for a newbie.We want people to succeed, stick with it, have fun but most importantly share.If wanting to trick the cheap kites will frustrate a newbie and the risk of them quitting is high. When you fly with the Prism lines you'll never want to use those polyester lines that came with the Limbo again . How many cheap kite buyers have we lost just because they never got to fly on a decent line set? Think if I would have got a cheap kite and not found these forums I would have been one of those people. RobB started on a Vision and look how he flies now. Lots of people begin with a Quantum in their quiver.I'd venture to guess most keep them for a long time. I think most Quantum owners would agree with me though that you should have been more ambitious. You should have gotten 2 more so you could entertain us with another stacked kites video LOL. They are fun to watch. Advancing into tricking with your new kite I'll bet you'll have less broken parts in the 1st 3 months than I did. Quantum is one of the toughest kites out there.So I've read. As time goes by I find myself missing the Premier Addiction more and more. Thought I'd be able to fly the grandkids a lot.For less than $100.00 I don't think I could have anymore wild eyed, no fear, straight up go for it pure D fun in 15 mph winds trying tricks 3' off the ground center window on any kite no matter the cost.But hey that's me. Premier Addiction Pro should be here no later than Tuesday. Supposed to be even better 😲.

[Gladders]

22 minutes ago, Breezin said:

So I got the best I could  justify for the $. I was not prepared for the sudden need for another kite. Then another, then another.

That ^^^ ✔️

23 minutes ago, Breezin said:

When you fly with the Prism lines you'll never want to use those polyester lines that came with the Limbo again

I'm quite ready to believe that. 

22 minutes ago, Breezin said:

 As time goes by I find myself missing the Premier Addiction more and more.

So here's the rub - you read around to seek advice, and on one site you read that the premier addiction is too twitchy and has loads of oversteer, then on another you find someone like you that really likes it. So much of this is subjective, which means that a kite with consistent though perhaps lukewarm reviews starts to looks like a good bet. 

I'm looking forward to flying the Quantum. Today will be the second thirteen hour working day in a row, but I'm off tomorrow. The forecast is cold and clear with 4/5mph winds. Maybe I'll get some light wind practice in.

Can I say, I'm really enjoying this kite chat. Thanks to everyone who's made me so welcome.