TBA or not TBA?

[John Barresi]

Discussion regarding this article in issue 47, available on April 1st.

http://www.kitelife.com/magazine/issue47/tba47

[audioRob]

I cant get in Is this subscriber available I assume?

[John Barresi]

Nobody gets the new issue until it's release date.

April 1st

[audioRob]

When you click the link it askes for username/password... a bit misleading

[John Barresi]

Is that clearer?

Same text that was there, enlarged and turned color.

[audioRob]

Is that clearer?

Same text that was there, enlarged and turned color.

What text?

[John Barresi]

[LLAMAGUY]

Or, we could just wait until April 1st...

[John Barresi]

LLama lives!

[Bill]

Well, guessing the (soon to be) text from the topic my vote is for TBA. Always has been and always will be.

Winning at nats was a lot more fun after the anticipation of being TBA for a couple days. I know we are an instant gratification society, but I still like TBA.

Just my $.02, if I have guessed correctly.

See ya,

Bill

[LLAMAGUY]

LLama lives!

Well of course! and thank you!

This llama is just moving a lot slower than the previous version.

[monkey]

Well of course! and thank you!

This llama is just moving a lot slower than the previous version.

Time to return to quad flying again, you can stand still for that

[Bill]

Ok, now that I have read the article, I still say TBA. I have heard this argument for a while now, and while I understand the issue of the "public" wanting to know the scores right away (we are an instant gratification society), I also understand some major drawbacks if we started doing this.

If the scores were given right away on the field, which would require a much simpler scoring system (changing of the IRBC rules, etc), I know of some judges that would stop judging. Remember, these are not professional judges out there. Some aren't real confident in their scores, but are willing to judge anyway, and we need all the judges we can get. Not a perfect system, but it is the system we have until sport kiting can afford paid judges.

Remember also, kiting is a tight community. We are judging our friends, buddies, sometimes team mates and family. I really don't want to know what my buddy, pal, etc. gave me for a score. And knowing that, my buddy, pal may give me a better score than having to deal with me asking them later why they gave me such a crappy score. "Thanks pal".

Plus as a competitor I like the excitement of TBA. The first thing competitors do when the scores are posted is to go check the scores and see if their names are not listed. TBA is a lot of fun IMO. There is no reason the score sheets can't be read by the announcer, after they are tabulated, with the TBA's being listed in alphabetical order. I think that is soon enough for the public to know how people did.

I obviously feel somewhat strongly about this

See ya,

Bill Rogers

P.S. 5 days until Berck......

[monkey]

Ah, hadnt' even pondered your points before, those are good and valid ones

FOUR more days till Berck now!

[Penny Lingenfelter]

We went to a body building competition this weekend, where the "Overall Winner" Kiting's version being "Grand Master" was announced, given the trophy and pictures taken, before the judges pooled their heads and said.. "oops, wrong answer" The trophy was taken back, and the pictures were retaken. if it weren't for that push for instant gratification the mistake might have been avoided.

Still, how many people have to leave before the results are posted? It's not a satisfying ending for them.

BB

Penny

[audioRob]

Still, how many people have to leave before the results are posted? It's not a satisfying ending for them.

Exactly. All the comps I went to so far except one I had to leave before the banquet (it's a long trip and I gotta drive!!). And as it is I hate being around people and avoid it at all costs... so banquets suck.

Either way, it'd be nice if rather than after eachc ompetitor, the results were announce at the end of each discipline.

[John Barresi]

I love the excitement one gains from seeing the placings from previous disciplines...

"Oh, I got a 3rd in MIP... Better ramp it up in MIB!"

Or...

"Yeah, got a 1st in MIP... Let's keep it going in MIB!"

Although it's impractical for events these days, I really loved it when scores were posted one by one... Like being in first through the first several competitors, then seeing that next score posted that knocks you into second... WOW, what a rush!

I'm pleased to share that the NWSKL is going to experiment with posting full results (not TBA) at the end of each discipline in at least a couple of events this year, to see what the response is, both from competitors and spectators.

[EBGB]

There's really two issues raised by the article.

TBA or not TBA (Lets call it near real-time scoring)

And real time scoring,

If anyone has a practical method to do real-time scoring, I'd love to hear it.

Currently, there are 11 scores, per flier, per judge for precision events.

With 5 judges, and ten fliers, that equates to 550 two digit numbers that need to be weighted and double checked before they can be presented.

That means we'd need either a costly electronic method to enter and report scores, or a drastic reduction in the number of scores that need to be reported, and a significant increase in the amount of subjectivity in judging.

Doing away with TBA's is a lot easier from an operations standpoint. The scores are simply posted/given to the announcer without "blacking out" the top three.

So far, the promoters that have shown interest have been events that either don't have a banquet, or they have another means of financial support besides what's raised at the banquet. Attendance at banquets is liable to take a hit, along with the money raised by bag raffles, auctions, etc.

Events don't last if the promoter can't break even.

[John Barresi]

Solid clarification Don... I'm 100% behind all those details, and the reasoning.

[YodaCal]

Time to chime...

IMO, sport kite competition these days is driven mostly by the competitor community. After all, they pay most of the way, so why shouldn't their needs come first and foremost?

As much as this statement sounds reasonable, it's really self-limiting. Take awards banquets for instance...who attends them? Mainly the same group of kite people...so in effect any gains for the promoter could have easily been done by raising the competition fees or other such method...sometimes I get the feeling that, for whatever reason, we don't want 'outside' influences on the sport. Heck, didn't I hear grumblings & rumblings last year at an event when the raffle kite was won by a spectator instead of a competitor?

As for judging...this sport will *never* be taken seriously outside of our own little community until there is some formal recognition of a judge's abilities & integrity outside of the 'friends/family/fellow competitors' network. The quality and organization of sport kite judging is IMO, the single most important issue today (even more than getting new fliers in) because, as Bill paraphrases, if you don't trust what the judges do, then what's the point of competition in the first place...

Regards,

Cal

[audioRob]

As for judging...this sport will *never* be taken seriously outside of our own little community until there is some formal recognition of a judge's abilities & integrity outside of the 'friends/family/fellow competitors' network. The quality and organization of sport kite judging is IMO, the single most important issue today (even more than getting new fliers in) because, as Bill paraphrases, if you don't trust what the judges do, then what's the point of competition in the first place...

Amen! I was pondering this recently... I am working on my ballet TP routine hardcore and I have 3 tricks that are not at all common (yo-fade backspin, taz machine, genie pop) and I realized while i was practicing today... Do half the fliers even know these tricks? Let alone the judges... I could nail my routine (which is by no means easy) and the judges walk away having no clue what just happened... perhaps even thinking my routine was not that great, "WTF was that? He must have messed up a half-axel"

Then again if i dumb it down I wont be satisfied, and I wont be having fun. So what's the point then?

At saskc I walked away very unimpressed (and with little respect) of the judging system. Nothing against the judges themselves, they volunteered and did their best, but for the AKA disciplines the whole "Hey, can you come judge MIP real quick?"... that's just... I cant take that seriously, for that very reason I refuse to compete in any aka disciplines.

In fact, I remember for quad hearing a few judges complaining they had no clue about quads, and they were sent to judge anyways! That is just plain scary to me. I drive many hours to goto a competition to compete, not to just shoot the breeze (pun intended) and fly.. I can do that at home. What's the purpose being judged when the judges very well may have little clue (from lack of experienence, surprise, or bias)?

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I think immediate scores would place more emphasis on judging. Quicker, more technical and cleaner judging. The judges would be required by the nature of the system to have the experience to know what to expect and evaluate it quickly and properly. All other things aside, that pressure would be a very good thing to push the status of "judge" to a title to be respected... not just placed on someone on a whim.

I beleive that the first two reasons bill gave are exactly why TBA should be gone. Being buddy-buddy with the judges makes the whole idea of competition an absolute joke. And the fact that judges would HAVE TO BE COMPETENT is a bad thing how?

One more time: How is requiring the judges to be effecient, competent and not your friend a bad thing?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

If competitions are meant to be just a socializing event, then count me out. Im not driving 12 hours to see a bunch of people flying kites, and for me to fly a kite. I can do that at home everyday. Im out there to participate in the competition so I can better myself as a flier and take part in the joys of competition.

I notice a lot of folks simply want competition to be a time to go out and socialize with your buddy and have a good ole time chattin 1000 miles from home...

I'll quote Randy Greenway from the kiteshoppe forum because I think his comment very well demonstrates what seems to be a prevailing attitude (I already responded to Randy on the tks forum with similiar comments).:

Maybe you missed it somehow but I think a good way to put it is we're friends first and competitors second.

Well if that's the case, then why dont we just hold festivals? Competition is for competing, not being friends. Festivals are for celebrating and being friends.

"It might be possible that you have that reversed."

I really hope I do. otherwise kiting as a sport will always just be a unfunny joke. I'll always do my best to be friendly and kind to other competitors, but first, we are competitors. Oddly enough Ive seen greater acts of sportsmanship between passionate competitors than 'friends' competing. You garner and give much more respect for a worthy competitor than a 1-weekend-every-few-months friend

Anyways... Yep.