Recommendations for first dual line framed kite

[Kingdabe]

Hi there,

I'm a new member hailing from Charleston, SC and am seeking recommendations for a solid, versatile first framed delta dual line kite. Hopefully I'm using the right terminology there... I've been flying kites since I was a little kid, and have some experience with different framed kites (the Flexifoil psycho my uncle had many years ago comes to mind), but my experience is primarily with foils of all sizes.  These days I'm essentially a weekend warrior, beach flyer. I absolutely love taking my foils out to the beach and getting yanked around in the sand or while out in the waves. I was looking to get an even bigger foil and recently picked up a Slingshot B3 which may give me the push to finally try out kiteboarding, something I've been interested in, but I digress... As noted, I'm seeking advice on a versatile first framed kite. I saw my uncle this weekend who originally got me into kites, and he said I've got to get a delta type to add to my quiver, so here I am.

While I may eventually want to learn some of the more intricate tricks I've seen in videos, I'm really looking for a nimble, precise and versatile kite that I can fly mostly at the beach and put on a show. I also enjoy teaching friends how to fly, which means I should likely get something tough; however, if I do get something harder to fly, I can always break out the foils for them! I enjoy the speed and pull of the foils, but have pretty much maxed out on the tricks I can pull there. So over the past few days I've looked at Into the Wind, Kitty Hawk Kites, and other sites for framed kites. Every time I do some research and get close to pulling the trigger on a kite, I end up reading about others and simply cant make up my mind! The Prism Quantum and the Kitty Hawk Skycraper were two that seemed to fit the bill: versatile, tough, larger wind range, but now I'm wondering if I should shoot a little higher for something else, having read posts here about the ITW hydra or kymera, and about the NG widow, or some of the HQs I looked into like the Stormy Pete. Given my experience, albeit focused on parafoils, I wouldn't consider myself a complete beginner which has led me to think I should try something that will allow me to grow into as a flier. Based on what I've read, probably one of the larger wings is my best bet, but I welcome any and all guidance! Oh, and I'd like to keep it under $200.

My apologies for the long post and likely on an over discussed topic (insert beat a dead horse gif), but I appreciate any ideas members may have!

Thanks,

David

[riffclown]

Let me recommend you give this thread a good read...

 

 

[Kingdabe]

Thanks!

[riffclown]

FYSA, I'm not a dual line flyer but unless I'm mistaken the KHK Skyscraper is a Premier Kites Widow with store branding.

[Zuul]

The Quantum is a nice kite, but slightly heavy.  Not a big deal other than low wind range suffers a bit.  The Widow NG (Skyscraper) probably has an edge in light winds.

I’ve had an opportunity to fly both, albeit briefly, and I don’t think you would go wrong with either.  

[Kingdabe]

Thanks, Zuul. Great info. Skyscaper is how I was leaning before finding this forum so thank you for confirming. Before I pull the trigger, I'm wondering what the difference is between it and the ITW Hydra which is still on sale at $112, or if others have recommendations. I read some good things about the Hydra and Kymera on here, but dont know enough to determine if those offer similar versatility with room to grow or if I should learn on something like the Skyscraper and graduate to the hydra, kymera or something else. 

 

[Zuul]

I have never had my hands on a Hydra or Kymera.  I don't doubt they are nice, but I can't compare them for you.  Get the Skyscraper and fly the crap out of it.  After you've mastered a couple basic tricks, you will know what you like and what you don't.  Then come back for suggestions on your next kite and we can help you spend your money. 

[frob]

I'm surprised they still have the Hydra or Kymera in stock. Both were discontinued and put on clearance prices about two years ago. They were good at 250, but great at ITW's $112 clearance prices so I picked up a few.

Based on the Widow NG rather than the Skyscraper which seems to be a rebranding, both are good kites. I think the Hydra would load a little bit stronger in low wind, and would probably be a tiny bit tighter and more precise at turns and tricks, but also require a tiny bit more from the pilot. But unless you are flying them next to each other or back to back you would struggle to compare them generally. 

Both are good options for an intro to tricks. Both could serve well for hundreds of hours of flights. 

If it matters to you, know that the Hydra is discontinued and it may be harder to get replacement parts. You are more likely to break some spars while learning tricks, so while replacing parts now should be fine, it may be somewhat harder to get identical parts in coming years. 

[cjay]

If you like strong pull and a loud roaring sound, the Widow NG has it, especially in the power section of the window. Pull tends to be a bit much for me at 9mph and above and I just start breaking it. It has good precision though. Cuts a straight lines really well but sort of hesitates in turn transitions at the extreme horizontal edge of window until it the sail loads up again and it gets moving. I would be careful with it in higher wind speeds for smaller, lighter, or weaker people though. I broke mine some. C clips broke loose and had to be re glued several times. Spine piece also came un glued and slid inside of spine and had to be re glued. Super glue didn't hold either. Kite shop used some 2 part epoxy to really keep it together. Broke the frame several times also, but I hammer on mine.

 

I haven't flown the ITW Kymera but I don't think you can beat the deal if you can still get one for $112.

 

Prism quality I have heard is hit or miss as of recent years. I know a kite shop that refuses to carry them. When they were made in the US a long time ago they were pretty good from what I have seen. Quantum is a popular kite. I have read that there might be knock offs on scamazon.

[Kingdabe]

Thanks Frob and CJay, fantastic insight and just what I needed. I think I'll go with the KHK Skycraper (rebranded Widow NG). Can't beat the price and your point on spare/replacement parts is well taken. I've only heard good things about KHK customer service so I'll go that direction. Also, I am looking for some good pull, love hearing that its loud and especially like the idea of having a versatile, tough kite to learn on. I've read on other posts that people feel fine handing over the reins on a widow to a beginner, which is something I naturally do when at the beach with friends, so thats another major pro for me. 

Thanks all! I'll probably be searching for a light wind ultralight sooner than later and will start my research here. 

David

 

[cjay]

I will add that the Widow NG buzzing or roaring sound is relative to how high the wind speed is and how fast you are cutting across the power section of the window.

I wouldn't call the frame particularly tough or sturdy compared to a fiberglass rod framed kite or one built tough for crashing. I always have spare rods and an extra kite to fly, cause I often break mine.

[DavidB]

I have both a Widow NG and a Hydra. The Widow is more ruggedly built and feels a bit more stable than the Hydra. The spars are more available, so when you do break one it will be easier (and less expensive) to replace.


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[frob]

Neither is particularly novice friendly, both will experience damage and require repairs after hard crashes. Beginners crash hard and crash often. Both will require several repairs as you learn tricks. Plan on replacing multiple spars learning tip stabs and coin tosses. 

For a true beginner friendly kite go for a small parafoil or a durable model like the FW Beetle. These can still be damaged but are likely to survive major crashes unharmed. 

People often hand over kites to strangers knowing they are fun, willingly risking $20-$50 repairs, or hundreds in replacement costs, often because they have backup parts in their bag due to other repairs. I have had a few times when I reassure a beginner after swapping a broken spar, then handing the lines right back out. I don't harp on the money for the spar and shipping, their observation is that I pulled one spar out of a bag containing about 30 total carbon fiber spars so it must be somewhat normal. I may warn them it is the only replacement I have for that specific rod, but I encourage, tell them it happens sometimes, and teach them how to improve. And I hope they don't break another part. 

[Mike Eibey]

The hydra for $112 is definitly the way to go. Its worth more for sure so id think of picking one up before they disappear.

I also own the Skyscraper. Definitly also a great value. 

The hydra does fly better than the Skyscraper. It's really excellent in yoyo based tricks and if you fly one for a bit you will le a en those tricks.

I feel its pretty unstable in the fade though, or maybe I just suck at holding fades 🤣  

The Skyscraper will hold a fade better but imo thats the only up it has on the hydra.

The hydra is also built better and looks cleaner in the air. 

You can't go wrong with either but while the hydra is only $112 id go that way.