Racer76g Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 I have seen videos and heard people talking about dogstaking and was wondering if anyone could explain to me what it really was? Is it fun, easy, what do I need. Just looking for some general info on dogstaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru4tru Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 I have seen videos and heard people talking about dogstaking and was wondering if anyone could explain to me what it really was? Is it fun, easy, what do I need. Just looking for some general info on dogstaking. Well, it all depends on how large a dog you have. If it's a big dog I'd go with this: (OK...I'm back down the "rabbit hole"!) Keep It Up! Duane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Watson Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 I have seen videos and heard people talking about dogstaking and was wondering if anyone could explain to me what it really was? Is it fun, easy, what do I need. Just looking for some general info on dogstaking. Dogstaking is where the lines are sent through a loop or pulley so that the flyer can fly right next to the kite. Dogstaking rigs come in a number of varieties. At the most basic level, you can use a basic godstake with a polished metal ring. This is easy to set up and easy to use, but can be difficult to fly through because there will be a considerable amount of friction. Other dogstakes use ceramic rings from fishing poles. These take a little bit longer to thread the lines through and have a bit less friction than others. John B. has been going through several versions of a dogstake that uses pulleys. His latest version takes a bit of set up time, but is quite nice to fly through. It is very fun. It can be a bit confusing at first, but it is really a lot more simple than it seems. When flying through a dog stake, you are looking at the back of the kite. So, you can switch the handles, then fly like you normally would. A basic dogstake could be bought from a pet store. You can add ceramic rings from a fishing pole to reduce the friction a bit. John's pulley system was custom made and cost a few hundred dollars. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--Pete Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) Basically, the original dog stake is a helix with a triangular handle, intended to tie up a dog on turf. About one foot long. Screw it into the grass and hook a leash to the swiveling ring. The dog is unlikely to get the leash tangled up or wrapped on the stake. Kiters liked to use them to tether single line kites. At some point, someone put the lines from a stunt kite through the gap in the triangle and flew the kite facing the wind. Quad-liners soon followed. The downside is that the inside of that sharp bend can be a bit rough, and that makes for fast line wear. Also, when you get several wraps, it gets hard for the lines to slide past each other. The next phase was polished rings attached to stakes, and then pulleys, and then separate pulleys for each line. John Barresi now has a custom-made 4-pulley "dog stake" (it's never seen a dog, and isn't likely to) that is a wonder. If you want to try it, you will need a fairly long line set (100' or more; remember you are flying on less than half the line-length) and a stake and some kind of very smooth large ring or carabiner. Put the lines from your stunt kite or quad through the ring and set up the kite. You will probably want to switch hands so that your normal flying skills will still work. Be careful to stand just a tiny bit farther from the stake than the kite, or you are liable to hit yourself with the kite. Mark a line and don't step over it. If you are a flyer who likes to do a lot of moving up and down wind to increase and decrease wind pressure on the kite, you may find you don't like dog-staking all that much. edit: heh, Watty was posting while I was editing. Edited July 8, 2011 by --Pete 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Racer76g Posted July 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Thank you guys so much, hoping for good winds this week or maybe going to grand haven to the beach to do some flying. Maybe i will go buy a dogstake to try it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barresi Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Great answers from both Watty and Pete. Garrit: Wear sunglasses (eye protection), and make sure you keep the kite in front of you, not so much over your head. It's not easy through a regular dogstake... Possible, but not easy, mostly due to the line friction... And, it's really hard on your lines. I'll try and do a tutorial on it sometime, but until then, be careful, have fun, and feel free to ask questions here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--Pete Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Thank you guys so much, hoping for good winds this week or maybe going to grand haven to the beach to do some flying. Maybe i will go buy a dogstake to try it. As has been said, a "raw" dogstake can be hard on your lines. Get a ring or a carabiner with a very smooth inner surface to pass the lines through. Hook that to the dogstake (or any other stake, since you won't be using the loop/handle). If you get a ring, get it big enough to pass the handles through. (Easier than threading the lines through a smaller ring, and keeping track of which line is which.) Also consider polished stainless steel shackles. There is a West Marine store in Grand Haven that might carry these. If you get a carabiner, you might want to tape the joint and the hinge to prevent the lines from getting caught or cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru4tru Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 I haven't done any dogstaking yet, but I plan on it. My "thinking", when I get around to doing it, is to set up 4 rings somehow (with spacers between and swivels on each) so that each line has it's own ring and all line twists will then be on the kite side of the rings, not in the rings. What's your impression of my thinking on this, before I do it? heehee! EDIT: My thinking on this is that I believe most of the line wear would probably be caused from the line to line contact within the ring...and that there wouldn't be much, if any, from each line running over it's own smooth stainless surface. Keep It Up! Duane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spence Watson Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 I haven't done any dogstaking yet, but I plan on it. My "thinking", when I get around to doing it, is to set up 4 rings somehow (with spacers between and swivels on each) so that each line has it's own ring and all line twists will then be on the kite side of the rings, not in the rings. What's your impression of my thinking on this, before I do it? heehee! EDIT: My thinking on this is that I believe most of the line wear would probably be caused from the line to line contact within the ring...and that there wouldn't be much, if any, from each line running over it's own smooth stainless surface. Keep It Up! Duane There will still be a considerable amount of wear on the lines, but the friction between the lines will be gone, and the kite will be easier to control. Even with John's pulley rig, there is a very noticeable amount of wear on the lines after use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru4tru Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 Thanks Watty, Well, this certainly gives me a good use for that 120' quad line I retired a few months ago. I feared it was going to break on me, but couldn't just throw it away! heehee! It's well worn about a third+ of the way in from both ends, from where the lines cross and I kept turning it around, but the center section is still pretty good! Now all I need is some wind without rain...maybe in September!?!? Hey Watty! You should try "dogstaking" inside sometime...maybe, a long rod running from you to the dogstake, so when you moved the dogstake would move too! heehee! Keep It Up! Duane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--Pete Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 G4T, How about four rings side-by-side lashed to a stick and lashed to each other (so they stay side-by-side). Then a bridle line from each end of the stick back to the stake. You could do the lashing with zip-ties (nylon cable ties). The tension from the handles and the kite will align the rig properly except for the weight of the rig. You might need something to prevent it from dropping completely to the ground, and getting dirt in the lines where they are riding over the ring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru4tru Posted July 9, 2011 Report Share Posted July 9, 2011 G4T, How about four rings side-by-side lashed to a stick and lashed to each other (so they stay side-by-side). Then a bridle line from each end of the stick back to the stake. You could do the lashing with zip-ties (nylon cable ties). The tension from the handles and the kite will align the rig properly except for the weight of the rig. You might need something to prevent it from dropping completely to the ground, and getting dirt in the lines where they are riding over the ring. Hi Pete, That sounds pretty good...and if the stake was higher then the leader lines to the stick, by a few inches, then the rings wouldn't hit the ground when things go slack. I think I'll give that a shot (in Sept. maybe! heehee!). It's simple enough to make that if it doesn't work there's not great loss! Keep It Up! Duane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru4tru Posted July 10, 2011 Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 My ""DOGGYSTAKE LINE CONTROL""....Check This Out!! (My projects never turn out as I intend them.) But what do you think?? Yeah...Yeah...I know...Red Mahogany stain would have been better then Early American!!! But besides that....?? I didn't have stainless steel rings, but cut off some links from a stainless steel chain I had. and I fastened them with plastic ties at the ends. The links are solid and not movable. And I have a big tie to fasten it to my ground stake. If anyone sees a problem (besides the stain color) please tell me! ============= Another project done...now what do I do for the rest of the Florida summer? Keep It Up! Duane EDIT: My dear wife Rhonda just came in and ask me what that "thing" was. I told her it's a Dogstake Line Holder and explained the whole thing to her. She looked at me funny, cocked her head to the side and said, "Why?" ........I just ignored her and looked away. I haven't answered her yet.........can someone help me with my response? heehee! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--Pete Posted July 10, 2011 Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 It looks fine with the possible exception of the small diameter of the 'wire' that the chain links are made of (unless that is much bigger than it looks). I think 1/4 inch diameter wire at a minimum, to avoid putting the line under tension while bending it to such a tight radius. The response? Could be several things: I saw someone doing this (or a video) and wanted to try it. I wanted to see how my flying looks from the other side of the kite. I want to feel the wind in my face while I'm flying. I wanted to extend my flying skills. I want to be able to turn around when the sun is in my eyes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru4tru Posted July 10, 2011 Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 It looks fine with the possible exception of the small diameter of the 'wire' that the chain links are made of (unless that is much bigger than it looks). I think 1/4 inch diameter wire at a minimum, to avoid putting the line under tension while bending it to such a tight radius. The response? Could be several things: I saw someone doing this (or a video) and wanted to try it. I wanted to see how my flying looks from the other side of the kite. I want to feel the wind in my face while I'm flying. I wanted to extend my flying skills. I want to be able to turn around when the sun is in my eyes. Good point Pete! Yeah...the present chain link "wire" dia. I'm using is 3/16" and that IS a pretty sharp bend. I don't know for sure, but I remember seeing some really heavy stainless chain at Lowes...maybe closer to 1/2" stuff. I'll check that out at Lowes tomorrow and beef the whole thing up as large as I can. Let's see...That would be buying 7 links of heavy chain (having to cut through 3 to get 4 clean links)....Lowes loves my major purchases like this!! heehee! And thanks for the "Why?" response...I read it to my wife and added..."and I think it will be FUN!!" (but, I don't know that yet, having never done it!) So she's satisfied now...she understands the part about my having FUN...heehee! Keep It Up! Duane EDIT: And thanks "Racer76g" for bringing the subject up!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru4tru Posted July 10, 2011 Report Share Posted July 10, 2011 It looks fine with the possible exception of the small diameter of the 'wire' that the chain links are made of (unless that is much bigger than it looks). I think 1/4 inch diameter wire at a minimum, to avoid putting the line under tension while bending it to such a tight radius. The response? Could be several things: I saw someone doing this (or a video) and wanted to try it. I wanted to see how my flying looks from the other side of the kite. I want to feel the wind in my face while I'm flying. I wanted to extend my flying skills. I want to be able to turn around when the sun is in my eyes. OK!! Here we go!! Attempt #2 with beefed-up chain links! (7/16" was the best I could get...but, looks pretty good!) I’ll call it the “DOGGY STYLE LINE CONTROL SYSTEM!” heehee!! First off…this is not a “How to make a Dogstake line control set-up!” I never flew “Dogstaking” and I don’t know what I’m talking about! (Yeah...I know...situation normal for the Guru4tru! heehee!) But, no one else is giving out much of any information on “How to...!" either! This is because the "guys who know” all have their "plans" sitting in the damn “Patent Office” awaiting confirmation (so, if you have any really good ideas...which this one is not...this is your big chance)! So at “BEST” this is just “Food For Thought” on how to make your own Dogstake line holder. One thing "seems" for sure...and that's the lines should be separate so that the “twisting line” isn’t anywhere near the Dogstake and all twists are between the stake and the kite, not between you and the stake. ========== So, I moved up to HEAVY-er chain for setting this up. I bought a whole foot of it for $2.97, which is enough to make a couple of these things (I was too embarrassed to just ask for 4 links, so I splurged on a foot! heehee!) And instead of ruining the links in between, I just cut the end through and pounded the link open to get it loose and then I pounded it back into place. But that meant going back and getting rid of all the burrs and polishing it. The chain itself has a flat manufacturing area with a ridge on each side inside the curve that has to be filed or sanded down and polished too. (check at the arrow, if you can see it.) I make 2 slits in a piece of 3/4” wood, about the size of the links. And then I screwed 4 screws through the wood and through the link. My screws were too long so when they hit each other in the middle, I stopped and cut the heads off flush with the wood. Later I realized that this step is totally un-necessary and does absolutely nothing! heehee! So don’t do this! Then I slipped 2 wooden oak dowels through the bad side of the chain links and screwed another piece of 3/4” wood, same size as the other, over all that stuff and screwed it to the first piece of wood. (I removed the plastic tie after screwing things together.) Now I will run 2 heavy plastic ties through the center of the package and strap the whole thing around my stake…which will probably be a 3/4” to 1” steel rod I sink in the ground. Like I said, this is just something that will give me the "experience of Dogstaking” and, maybe, just some "food for thought" for anyone else!! Heehee! Keep It Up! Duane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reef Runner Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 For all of that ($$'s), you could have just bought 4 small pulleys.............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--Pete Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 For all of that ($'s), you could have just bought 4 small pulleys.............. Cheap blocks (the pulley is the part that goes round) have too big of a gap between the pulley and the cheeks of the block. Sooner or later the line will jump off the pulley and get down into that gap (and break almost instantly). If you want a large diameter pulley with no gap, you have to make them with a recess machined out of the cheeks that the flanges of the pulley are hidden in. This generally means big bucks for a custom-made block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reef Runner Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 For all of that ($'s), you could have just bought 4 small pulleys.............. Cheap blocks (the pulley is the part that goes round) have too big of a gap between the pulley and the cheeks of the block. Sooner or later the line will jump off the pulley and get down into that gap (and break almost instantly). If you want a large diameter pulley with no gap, you have to make them with a recess machined out of the cheeks that the flanges of the pulley are hidden in. This generally means big bucks for a custom-made block. Just a figure of speach ! I suppose you don't have to get cheap blocks.............Harken, maybe, or maybe not ! But yes, I understand what you are saying. I suppose that's why JB's cost several hundred $$'s.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru4tru Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Yeah...Yeah...I show PICTURES!! Let me see "YOUR PICTURES" (whose-ever) and I'll "make it" for me (if I think it's better) heehee! I don't know what JB's pulleys look like or anyone else-es way of doing things...it's all a "No Show" to me...but, I'd love to see what's happening in the "Dogstaking World"! I might not know what I'm doing...but, I'm someone that is doing something! heehee! Keep It Up! Duane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barresi Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Some dogstake discussion topics… http://www.revkites.com/forum/topic/2529-dogstake-new-pulley/ Most recently… Post with a picture of my current stake… page__view__findpost__p__81263 A different topic, more pictures courtesy of Mike Devereaux (maker of my stake)… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru4tru Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Some dogstake discussion topics… http://www.revkites.com/forum/topic/2529-dogstake-new-pulley/ Most recently… Post with a picture of my current stake… page__view__findpost__p__81263 A different topic, more pictures courtesy of Mike Devereaux (maker of my stake)… OK...so maybe I was wrong about their being a Dogstaking conspiracy going on...(these mistakes happen sometimes when one lives in a cave!) But HEY! Note the close similarity between my Dogstake and yours! Almost identical!! heehee! Keep It Up! Duane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru4tru Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 WOW!! I just realized what an absolutely marvelous invention this "Dogstake" idea is!! When I fly at the beach, I always wait for an East wind coming off the ocean. Like in this picture...I'm looking West toward what appears to be a deserted beach. But the beach isn't deserted...everyone is behind me, between me and the ocean. And if someone catches my attention, I have to turn my head around 180' just to look at them, which make my looking at them very obvious and has also resulted in a crash or two. But now I can fly with the East wind coming in off the ocean and watch all the action too!! This will be Great!! heehee! Keep It Up! Duane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru4tru Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 I was also thinking, but I'll need some help with this. I have a bunch of shorter line sets that I made out of the line left on the spool after I made a the longer set I wanted. I was thinking about using maybe a 50' line set from me to the dogstake and then adding a section that would be in contact with the dogstake rings and then connecting that to maybe a 40' line set from there to the kite. This would mean that the short section, maybe 6' or 8', would be the only section that would contact the dogstake. This would eliminate any wear to the lines. The question is what would be a good material for that short middle section. I was thinking maybe a very small dia, stranded steel cable. But that might be too stiff....what dose anyone think would be good stuff? Keep It Up! Duane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barresi Posted July 11, 2011 Report Share Posted July 11, 2011 Good idea in theory, except that you'll find that you're actually moving an area of line more like 30'-40' through the stake at times, especially while you're learning. That, and there will be a bump or "joint" in your line where the real line is connected to the tougher middle piece... That'll feel like crap when it hits the stake. More trouble than it's worth, IMHO. But if you want to try it, I'd suggest maybe 150# spectra (upsize from your 90# fly lines)... Anything else will be too weak, too heavy or too stretchy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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