Time to upgrade?

[websherpa]

Hi all brand new to the site. Warm(er) weather is starting to make an appearance in Montana and there has been wind to boot so I've been dusting off my kite and my flying skills. I have roughly 30 hours of experience on a flying wings beetle on mostly 80' lines. Through a series of poor line maintenance/high wind/loosing my mind (and one of my webbing handles) I only have my short lines which are about 20'. With the short lines I can axle consistently on the edges of the wind window and in lighter winds throughout the wind window. I've been able to side slide across the window several times, but not consistently. I can almost always hold a stall or slide for 2+ seconds unless I get blasted with a gust. My figures were decent on the long lines, although I would happily admit there was plenty of room for improvement. On the short lines I'm just not quick enough to acurately fly through any figures except loops and 8's without having issues. I can't say I don't crash but I've reduced crashes to soft crashes rather than full on lawn darts 95% of the time. The short lines have really helped with learning recoveries and I can consistently cartwheel and in heavier winds have a number of other recovery techniques for belly down recoveries.

... and now after that long winded introduction. I've recently discovered a kite shop in the next town over. They have some events which I plan to attend and I expect to solicit similar advice from their staff upon visiting. As soon as is possible I want to get new handles or possible a new set of lines in the 80' range for the beetle. I'm also considering a higher performance kite and/or a low wind kite. I've seen advice to just pony up to $400 boutique kite right away, but I'm hesitant to spend that kind of money when I'm not 100% sure what kind of kite I'm interested in. Also, I'm still quite new and breaking components on a kite that expensive makes me weary. Also right now flying time is more important to me than being able to do every trick, and I'm quite happy when the wind is heavier to just let the kite fly rather than try to get slack in the lines and see how I can make it tumble. Maybe a more trickable kite would change my mind. I've certainly caught the bug though and I'm interested in nearly all facets of sport kiting from indoors to hard pulling, precision to tricking, slow and elegant to fast and squirley... You get the idea.

So first of all, when is it safe/worth while to take that step beyond the beetle? I know a lot of others start of $100 kites which seem to have better perfomance than the beetle but is it a big step up? Should I wait a little until I'm a better pilot and upgrade to something much nicer or is there a big step up in perfomance going to a $100-$250 kite? Knowing that low wind situations are common and when there is wind it can often be violent (see snaped lines) should I look at 2 decent kites which cover a broad wind range rather than 1 really nice kite with a smaller flyable wind range.

TL;DR :

I've got 30hrs of flying on a beetle. Am I ready to upgrade to a better kite, and if so which kite would you recommend?

-Glenn

[RobB]

Yes, it's time to upgrade. A Beetle would be good for the first few hours on a two line kite, but once you learn the basics of control, it will leave you wanting more. It is a good, tough little kite, but a full sized kite is what you want if you want to progress to flying nice patterns & tricks. There are so many good kites out there that I hesitate to start suggesting this kite or that kite. I think you should try to meet up with your local flying group (you're lucky to have other people who fly nearby) and try theirs, and get their opinions.

BTW... 80' lines for a little kite like the Beetle seem a little long, I would use 50'-60' lines myself...

[John Barresi]

Hi Glenn, welcome to KiteLife!

Based on what you've shared, it would seem to me that something in the $150-$200 class would an ideal next step, using 80'-110' lines (more airspace in which to play).

With regard to specific kite recommendations, I'll leave that to the folks here who are more familiar with what is available these days.

Keep on coming back, we've got a good group here and we're always happy to help a fellow flier!

[websherpa]

Ok so I'm looking for a full sized (which is how big?) kite in the $150-$200 range. I'll be looking for lines in the 80'-110' range. With pricing like that + new lines I'm sure I can afford a kite like the 4D for light wind days. Any reason not to pick up two kites right now? Will a 4D or similar kite perform better in low wind than the beetle?

[West Australian]

Hi websherpa,

Sounds like you have been going great on your Beetle there.

Having a blast too I hope.

A 'Full' Sized kite is about 7 foot wing span.

There are heaps of options for under $200

Prism offers the Fantastic 'Hypnotist', great for newer flyers and fully trickable. (Love Mine)

Even the Prism E3 is in that price range.

Flying wings have the Silver fox series, the 2.5's are great.

Mr Barresi has the Kymera for about $200. I have not used one, but they have great reviews.

2 kites are sometimes better than one. If you are getting multiple kites, try to spread their wind ranges.

Go for one low and one high.

The 4D is a great low wind dualie, but it takes some practice and work.

It does handle quite diferently from my other Dualies.

An Airwave UL or Zero might be an easier transition to lighter wind.

Hope that helps

[RobB]

Hi websherpa,

Sounds like you have been going great on your Beetle there.

Having a blast too I hope.

A 'Full' Sized kite is about 7 foot wing span.

There are heaps of options for under $200

Prism offers the Fantastic 'Hypnotist', great for newer flyers and fully trickable. (Love Mine)

Even the Prism E3 is in that price range.

Flying wings have the Silver fox series, the 2.5's are great.

Mr Barresi has the Kymera for about $200. I have not used one, but they have great reviews.

2 kites are sometimes better than one. If you are getting multiple kites, try to spread their wind ranges.

Go for one low and one high.

The 4D is a great low wind dualie, but it takes some practice and work.

It does handle quite diferently from my other Dualies.

An Airwave UL or Zero might be an easier transition to lighter wind.

Hope that helps

While I agree with you about the Hypnotist being a great choice (nice nuetral handling, big 8'+ wingspan, and tough as nails...) I would disagree that the E3 would be a good choice. The E3 is a more radical handling, challenging kite to learn to fly. I'm sure in the right hands, it might fly beautifully but I couldn't learn to fly mine, I gave up on it. In contrast, I was able to fly the Kymera the first day, right out of the bag, and it's much more trick capable than the Hypnotist. I think the Hypno might be more durable, but I've never had a problem with my Kymera. Of the two, the Kymera will hold your interest longer. The Kymera is a little bit smaller of a kite and 80' lines would be the longest I would fly it on, my flying space is pretty narrow, so I'm used to flying on shorter lines. Long lines are good for figures & precision flying, but I like shorter lines for tricking.

I've seen nice Silver Fox videos on uToob, but I have no personal experience with them.

I would steer away from the 4D, and look for something bigger, like the Skyburner NikNak. It's only a couple $$$ more, and it's a larger wing, less twitchy SUL. The Airwave UL and Zero also have nice videos on uToob, but I've never flown them either. I would choose either of those over a 4D, though.

This is why flying Other People's Kites before buying one blind is the best option... certain people get along with certain kites, while others don't. If you've got that option, it will save you a lot of D'oh ! ($$$, too ) Search the kites that you're interested in on uToob, and you can at least get an idea of how each one flies.

~Rob.

[Cyphert]

lots of good advice here. for me i tend to buy then try. it seems to do me well as i dont know what kind of kite is best for me. i like all my kites and i tend to grow into them. as a new flyer it will be hard to try out different kites and know what you like and dislike about a kite. i would get some recommendations from your local kite shop. i have a 4d and its great but also very twitchy. i have a prism micron that is a blast to fly. super fast but to a lot of people they dont like it because its to peppy. i like my hq jam session. it has a lot of pull and can do a number of tricks and is pretty fast. its also a 20 year old design. people loved flying kites 20 years ago. there are a lot of different kites. some pros will swear by a prism quantum pro. its perfect for precision and team flying. its also one of the slowest kites money can buy. so for some its just not the right kite. you may have to master a few kites before you would want to jump into a pro kite. get a chance to figure out what you want. a loud kite, fast kite, trick kite or precision kite. we all have favorites. i just bought a pair of Skyburner Ocius. they are fast do tricks well. and to a lot of people they are the perfect kite. i met the maker of the kite and he was super nice. i do like buying a hand made kite made in america. do some research. for me that means finding the prettiest kite that i want to spend hours looking at. cuz for me looks are probably the most important. then speed i like a fast sporty kite. good luck on your search.

[websherpa]

Sounds like you have been going great on your Beetle there.

Having a blast too I hope.

It's been such a pleasure to find sport kite flying. Every time I'm out with enough wind to stay in the air I've got a huge grin painted on my face for the rest of the day.

I've been talking with the shop on Facebook and they don't have any kites that fit the bill. They have a large assortment of single lines kites, a few parafoils and some beginner dual line sport kites. They seem quite willing to from any of their catalogues which include: Prism, HQ, ITW, Gomberg, New Tech and Premier. This is a bit of a let down as I was hoping to be able to have a new kite within the next week, but I'd rather build this relationship now than go the cheap/quick route with an online purchase. It may pay off in the long run, it may not, but a local kite shop can't be a bad thing especially in such a sparsely populated area.

So right off the bat the full size standards I could get through the shop which were recommended are the Kymera and the Hypnotist, with what sounds like a slight preference for the Kymera particularly in the long run. Since I'm already paying a premium to some degree for purchasing in a brick and mortar, is there a same brand UL or SUL that makes sense from one of these companies which so I could order two kites in for the shipment price of one? IE ITW Kymera and ITW echo OR HQ Infinity and HQ Shadow. I may end up holding off on the light wind kite for the time being, but the more info I have going into the shop the better.

John - I like you already. You're the only one with a horse in the race and everyone has recommended your kite but you. Class act.

Cyphert - I know what you mean about twitch being fun, I don't know that I could describe the beetle in heavy wind on 20' lines as anything but twitchy but... I think I would prefer a slower kite to really dial in my technique right now. No reason I can't come back to fast and twitchy later though.

Thanks for the all the input already.

[John Barresi]

John - I like you already. You're the only one with a horse in the race and everyone has recommended your kite but you. Class act.

Haha!

Hey, kites for for the flier, not the seller(s).

Most of these guys are closer to your "point in time" than I am, their advice would probably be better than mine anyway.

Let me ask though...

1 - Where in the world do you fly?

2 - Average wind speeds there?

[websherpa]

I'm in Bozeman, MT. It's in a high elevation valley with mountain weather, so average doesn't mean a whole lot. We definitely have long stable low wind periods with 5 m.p.h. or less. Unsettled weather can bring sustained wind from 10-30 with gusts doubling the average wind speed. Livingston sits on the other side of a ridge line in a notch, so they typically have 5-10 m.p.h. than we do in Bozeman. It seems smoother as well.

[John Barresi]

You may find that shallower sailed (slightly shorter standoffs) and less "pitchy" (or less trick-oriented) kites may do better in somewhat turbulent wind due to their stability - all comes down to taste, but good for though as there may be a balance you're looking for.

[websherpa]

Intersting. Good to know that sail depth can aid in smoothing out the gusts. There's been lots of great info in here for me to take to the shop so thanks so much all! I'll try to check in once I've made a choice and I'll be flying on a new sail sooner than later.

[John Barresi]

Great, keep us posted.

[SparkieRob]

And pictures too!

[websherpa]

Fun times this week! The wind has kept up all week, if anything being on the strong side.

I ended up ordering a Kymera and an ITW Swift as well as buying an in stock HQ symphony 1.3 which has been super fun in spite of the low price point. Also, still working on the beetle I've picked up tight spins to axles, backflips, 540's and when I'm lucky a lazy suzan. I'm trying to figure out snap stalls and half axles but today the wind seemed a bit strong and I'm not sure I'm using the correct inputs. I need to watch my DVD's again and do a better job of remembering the key steps when I'm out in the field.

The local shop guy was pretty up front about not being a sport kite expert but has been incredibly helpful and was quite interested in making the purchases worth while for me, so we've struck up a good working relationship. He's trying to get a fighter kite scene worked up, which could be cool too. Next event he's putting together he is bringing a couple for me to demo.

[Kristian]

hey I go to school in Great Falls and hadn't heard of a shop anywhere in MT. Would you mind sending me the info on the store and some up coming events?

[websherpa]

The owner's name is Chip. The actual website isn't updated but the facebook page is. He hasn't scheduled the events for this year but last year it was one weekend a month during the summer they would try to fill livingston's best field with kites.

https://www.facebook.com/livingstonkitecompany?fref=ts

113 West Callender Street, Livingston, MT.

(406) 222-5483

If you end up coming down this way give me a shout.

[RobB]

You're lucky to have a kite store like that nearby. We used to have a kite store in my town, but the owner found that she makes more $$$ (and can keep the lights on...) by selling other things. So there are very few (less than 10) kites in her store now. Sad that so few people can take the time to appreciate simple pleasures like kites...

[websherpa]

So I picked up my kites this past weekend and they both look great. It was a pretty stiff wind on friday but I couldn't help myself and took out the new toy (Kymera). No wind guage, but it was definitely in the upper range of acceptable. I flew it for 20 min or so mostly sticking to the edge of the wind window of in a full run through the wind window for fear of stretching the sail or snapping the frame. I tried a couple axles but kept getting my lines stuck on the wing tips. I didn't have the Nock covers on and I believe this was the main issue. During one of the these hang ups the kite crashed wing tip first and snapped the lower LE. I've ordered the parts and now I have to sit on my hands until the winds settle or take out my foil.

Aside from the lines catching the Kymera flew beautifully even if I didn't. What a treat and it was quite a bit bigger and harder pulling than I was expecting. So much fun. Can't wait to get it in the air again.

[John Barresi]

Hi, sounds like fun!

Quick tips...

The black caps are to protect your wing tips, simply and optionally (should be very snug), depends on the turf you're flying on.

With regard to wraps from axels, it has to do with slacking that line more so it hangs below the rotation and doesn't catch.

[John Barresi]

Hit the axel, slack both lines fairly hard during the axel, then re-load (line tension) to fly away or recover.

[websherpa]

Pilot error. Message received. Don't fly when you can't put enough slack in the lines to trick properly.

The axles definitely felt different on this kite and throwing more slack will have to be an adjustment. Thanks for the input!

[John Barresi]

Hey hey, tricks are overrated... Just "flying" is a beauty unto itself.

End of the day, being able to pilot your kite is worth a hundred times more...

How to draw or release line tension to affect speed, changing the size of the arc inside a circle, push turn vs pull turn vs combination turns, etc, etc... These are the things that will bring real control, and I've found they actually deepen the experience of trick flying.

Also, take heed - tricks are easy to sort of get "stuck on", I always recommend folks balance their practice with both tricks and fundamentals... No need to ever limit yourself just because of a wing wrap, you can get those no matter what you do, it's all about how you put the kite down and get 'em out.

[websherpa]

Hey hey, tricks are overrated... Just "flying" is a beauty unto itself.

For sure. I guess I should have said only trick when I can put slack in the lines. That said, I was still pretty nervous pulling the kite through the center of the wind window and that seems to be the place I most like driving kites, whereas the edges are more fun for tricking.

End of the day, being able to pilot your kite is worth a hundred times more...

How to draw or release line tension to affect speed, changing the size of the arc inside a circle, push turn vs pull turn vs combination turns, etc, etc... These are the things that will bring real control, and I've found they actually deepen the experience of trick flying.

I thought the Kymera tracked wonderfully, and the figures I try to fly every time out were just crisper. I have no aspirations for comp flying or anything like that but well balanced flying is so much more beautiful watch than grinding out tricks one after another. I definitely want to grow into a well balanced flyer... as soon as I get my kite fixed

Also, take heed - tricks are easy to sort of get "stuck on", I always recommend folks balance their practice with both tricks and fundamentals... No need to ever limit yourself just because of a wing wrap, you can get those no matter what you do, it's all about how put the kite down and get 'em out.

Will do. I know crashes and breaks are a part of the game. I'm certainly disappointed in myself for only getting 1 20 min sesion before blowing up my new kite, so maybe I've got a bit of a altertered perspective on how I need to fly in the future. I'm buying some spare parts so hopefully the next break doesn't involve shipping and handling time.

Thanks for all your help though. What a great asset!

[John Barresi]

You've got a good attitude, you'll be fine.

Really glad to hear you enjoyed the Kymera!

*warm fuzzies*