Zen and light wind

[makatakam]

3 hours ago, SHBKF said:

test, test    I noticed my post count mysteriously increased by more than thirty.  Hmmm....   I have been a bit corn-fused with some of the changes but have also had a very poor wifi connection.  Most other campers left the campground today so now I have less of an issue on the web.  Great day at the beach.  Danged if the 4D didn't get a good thrashing again.  Flew the Zen in dicey conditions to some success.  It showed me it's stuff.  But I digress.  KiteLife is still the best.

That Zen will grow on you. Before you know it, you'll be craving those 0-3mph days. I'm hooked.

[SHBKF]

20 hours ago, makatakam said:

That Zen will grow on you. Before you know it, you'll be craving those 0-3mph days. I'm hooked.

Thanks for the encouragement.  Wind was blowing down the beach at a measured 2 mph average using a Kaindl Windtronic 2.  I was using Wayne's suggested framing of race leading edge, 2 wrap center & Zen verts.  I now get why one hundred foot lines are suggested.  The big wing needs a big window to make graceful turns.  The kite is flying mostly on apparent wind so you need to keep it moving when not straight downwind.  I was on eighties & wishing for a bit more room but the available beach space had me flying over the dunes on one side & the surf on the other.  The sail would flutter gently if I tried to hurry things.  Slowing down & squaring up the sail billowed it out giving it a solid feel.  Hovering was not easily done, well for me anyway,  but possible with concentrated effort.  Sideways hover straight down wind required the archer's stance similar to flying the Blast kites.  There is more I could say but mainly I still have much to learn.

[makatakam]

@SHBKF More brake! Next time out in low wind with the Zen, max out the brake. Try it, you will be amazed at both the pull and the ease of control. Eighty foot lines are ok with the Zen. I have flown mine on forties, and although the window is rather small, the kite is easier to keep aloft in low wind. Bring out the 50# lines if you have any. 50# x 120' is awesome if you have the room.

[bbailey49]

37 minutes ago, makatakam said:

@SHBKF More brake! Next time out in low wind with the Zen, max out the brake. Try it, you will be amazed at both the pull and the ease of control. Eighty foot lines are ok with the Zen. I have flown mine on forties, and although the window is rather small, the kite is easier to keep aloft in low wind. Bring out the 50# lines if you have any. 50# x 120' is awesome if you have the room.

I was just about to say the same thing. Fill that sail up with all the brake you can. 50' x 50# are my go to Zen lines. 

[SHBKF]

I was on the fifth knot of these handles.  I had been flying a full vent B in 15 mph winds earlier in the week on that setting & could have probably gone out another knot or two that day.  With the Zen I was struggling with having enough drive so I moved to the fourth knot.  Spacing is 3/4" so I was only out three inches total.  I have 50# quad sets in 50' & 100' but did not use them on this day.

[Wayne Dowler]

I use 50', 85', and 120' x 50# lines mostly. Sometimes 120' x 90# if I think wind will pick up! 

 

Drive is a relative term!  You can still get it, even on more brake. You just gotta learn to "feel" it. With the ability to fly in winds that light, "squaring up" is even more important.

 

Hovering is tough, especially upright! Sideways are not too bad and the sail loves to be inverted! 

 

Did you notice a tendency to over rotate in the turns? Gotta learn when to stop giving commands and let it finish!!

[John Barresi]

Split and moved from website discussion.

[SHBKF]

5 hours ago, Wayne Dowler said:

I use 50', 85', and 120' x 50# lines mostly. Sometimes 120' x 90# if I think wind will pick up! 

Drive is a relative term!  You can still get it, even on more brake. You just gotta learn to "feel" it. With the ability to fly in winds that light, "squaring up" is even more important.

Hovering is tough, especially upright! Sideways are not too bad and the sail loves to be inverted! 

Did you notice a tendency to over rotate in the turns? Gotta learn when to stop giving commands and let it finish!!

I will switch to the lighter lines next session.  I tend to fly the lines I have deployed at the time & change the kites instead of line sets.  Zen hovering efforts will push me further & improve all my Rev flying.  The over rotating is similar to the other large sail Revs like the Blast series so it makes sense now that you point it out.  Timing is everything in so much of life.  Feeling it & waiting for it are within sight now.  I will continue to refine my efforts in order to achieve Zen.  The path on the Dark Side gets wider as you go along.  Thank you guys.  You are my KiteLife.   SHBKF

[Paul LaMasters]

over rotation (or over-steer), that is a factor of both the bridle choice and the kite's size (more mass & surface area means it want to continue in that same direction, once put in motion)

 

With the kite sitting on the ground, take the center of the stock bridle's attachment point on the leading edge,... does that wiggle laterally in your grip, L & R?  Well that is the oversteer on the Zen you are playing with right there.  You cock or load the sail by slightly applying pressure  BEFORE the planned movement takes place.  What if you didn't have to do that set-up action?  what if it was already cocked and loaded?  Would that make it different?  Certainly!  Better?  Maybe is the answer,... that is a personal experience best served thru experimentation over some extended period of time.

 

I have worn out two Zens, working hard on the 3rd one.  That kite is a kick in the tail-feathers when nothing else is flying or fun enough.  Easy to give a newbie lesson because there's a direct connection (feeling) transmitting down the string to your hands.

 

Unhappy with your Zen's current performance?  Try Eliot Shook's business phone number for some proven upgrades!  You can make it go on a dead calm day and still enjoy it up to when others have switched to their 1.5 mid-vents.  Tighter sleeve on the leading edge, magic sticks, french bridle, LED lights that simply clip-on and are fully waterproof.  What about a Skyshark p-90 travel frame or Diamond sticks?

 

The Zen prefers long(-er or -est) throw handles and big powerful pilot input movements, you're not driving a turbo'd Ferrari, but a school bus with no power steering

[SHBKF]

Have some 17" snagless handles I that I have tried recently.  Did some urban street night flying on 30' lines with a 4 wrap full vent 1.5B in fairly light wind with these handles.  But it was a kind of a strange combo to say the least.  I have only flown 13's previously but did not find anything disagreeable about the longer handles.  My Ford F1 has manual steering and manual everything else.  It too has a larger steering wheel to give you more leverage for needed inputs.  I noticed I was guiding the Zen around with mostly brake inputs which is how you fly a depower foil on a bar.  The bar ends control the brake lines but also change the angle of attack as you move the bar up or down which is the way you sheet out the kite.  That's a whole different part of my KiteLife.  Have successfully made magic sticks for the 1.5 so a set for the Zen should be no issue.  But most interesting to me is the French bridle aspect.  I have wondered about the wobbly bridle on the smaller Revs.  Much room for thought as I continue down the path.  SHBKF

[John Barresi]

10 hours ago, Paul LaMasters said:

over rotation (or over-steer), that is a factor of both the bridle choice and the kite's size (more mass & surface area means it want to continue in that same direction, once put in motion)

I also find that oversteer is promoted heavily on bigger kites by a comparatively more flexible leading edge... Fine line... Slippery oversteer if the leading edge is too stiff and straight, powered up oversteer if the leading edge is too flexible (more "C" in the overall curve), each feels different during but with similar end results... That's actually why iQuad stopped using Zens early on - just too finicky for faster, cornering, detailed sport-type flight, even in light wind.

If I remember right, Bazzer likes 3 wraps in his Zen, on the occasions he does fly it.

Zen is a truck - the trade off for generating so much possible pressure in the sail, and a personality all its own.

[makatakam]

23 hours ago, SHBKF said:

I was on the fifth knot of these handles.  I had been flying a full vent B in 15 mph winds earlier in the week on that setting & could have probably gone out another knot or two that day.  With the Zen I was struggling with having enough drive so I moved to the fourth knot.  Spacing is 3/4" so I was only out three inches total.  I have 50# quad sets in 50' & 100' but did not use them on this day.

If you can launch without too much difficulty from the 10th knot, that's where you should be for very low wind. A differential of 7 to 7.5 inches is where the wind will properly load the sail. Try it, you may like it.

[SHBKF]

16 minutes ago, makatakam said:

If you can launch without too much difficulty from the 10th knot, that's where you should be for very low wind. A differential of 7 to 7.5 inches is where the wind will properly load the sail. Try it, you may like it.

WOW!  gulp, okay....I'll give it a go.  I could make some appropriate leaders for my 17's.  Yes, that's it.....SHBKF

[makatakam]

@SHBKF Of course, you realize that this will also slow the kite down dramatically, but you will also lose all the trailing edge flutter when at full speed, which will reduce the wear on the trailing edge. This applies to all quad-line kites, and, come to think of it, duals too.

I said you may like it. By that I mean how often you get to fly in wind in that 0-2mph range. Like most things Rev-related, it will take a few sessions (back-to-back if possible) to really feel the difference. If you want to fly with ease (even sitting down) when everyone else is working up a sweat just trying to keep it airborne, then this is definitely worth learning. I have flown my "modified" kites when single-line SUL deltas won't stay up.

[Paul LaMasters]

the Zen work well with 18" magic sticks, my currently used model though as 20s as a test bed.  Here's the difference in a nut-shell, the longer ones prevent the kite from returning to you (during a catch),... instead it powers back up, turns slowly back downwind in a horseshoe-shaped flight path.  The 18's come back to you like it was flying on railroad tracks.  

I'm not talking about yanking it out of the sky from directly overhead.  No, an arching flight path from 100+ feet away, ideally w/o any movement on the part of the flyer.  Too light weight of a kite and it's all floaty, too heavy and normal flight is much more work, but slack lining can always use a little mass, particularly if you can place it as desired.

Okay, then why keep 'em too long?  Well, when night flying I use LEDs from Shooks (Fetch & "Sir" Paul's design) They slip onto the magic stick tubes and backlight the kite.  The taller the light pole, the more the illumination is expanded across the surface.  So I can get away with one light fixture, instead of needing two = less weight.  If fact they impact flight so marginally that you could leave 'em on the kite all the time.

The sticks make the kite sail/frame a tighter structure, in fact you are adding weight, but also significantly changing the balance point.   Here's a comparison,... you have a biplane but to save weight you plan to remove the cross struts and wired structure lacing the wings together.  That is the Zen in it's original condition.  Too flexible for it's size, but a light weight design where every penny of weight is undesired (other than what's necessary for durability).  so if you could lace it up tighter would you think it would improve performance?  Don't take my word for it,... I use magic sticks even on indoor kites.

My first real quad-lined coach is Jeffery Burka.  We flew together the first time in 1996 and last year went to Huntington Beach.  It was five days of basically Zen weather.  Jeff figured we weren't flying at the washington monuments, but the pacific ocean.  He didn't bring his!  I shared an old beater, stuck Monkey on the handles as well.  Jeff has a French Bridle and Magic sticks on his zen now.  His only kite with sticks/frenchie.  Monk's said he thought his zen was hidden in closet somewhere, so not sure if he followed up, but the startling difference was experienced.  The point is,... for less the the price of new leading edge you can totally REMAKE the zen into something you want to fly every chance you get.  Maybe you like it just way it is,... coolbeans!  But if not totally in love with your Zen, try a further small investment.

50#/100 feet in a totally dead calm, you can't fly the Zen from a wheelchair, but you never have to run or work too hard either.