Trying to do the side slide with a two line kite.

[Brewster]

I have been trying to do a side slide for about two summers now (at least 30 hours), by following the instructions in the video attached.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiedO45vmso

 

Almost every time I get to the edge of the wind window, then do a 1/2 turn then try to turn into a slide, the kite just stalls and doesn't continue sliding. Sometimes it goes up a little, but always all the momentum is erased.  Sometimes I get it to slide maybe a foot? I am able to do regular stalls and landings but I just cannot get the slide. Help!

 

I can post a video of my attempts if that will help.

 

[RobB]

#1... Universal Truth of dual line tricks... more slack ! Walk towards the kite right at the end of the downwards turn. You need very small inputs to keep the wingtips straight, I use my finger tips on the lines.

#2... what kite are you trying to slide ? The kites in the example video are some of the easiest kites to slide. The smaller the kite, the more difficult it is to slide. It's a Prism video, but notice, they're not sliding Microns !

#3... winds... what kind of winds are you trying to slide in ? You want the winds that you can barely get the kite to fly in. The faster the wind, the more difficult it is to slide.

 

Good luck with the slide. It looks like one of the easiest tricks, but, in reality it is one that needs the most practice to do well. It's one of the first tricks you'll learn, but one of the last that you'll master.

[Brewster]

Thanks, Rob.  I'll try the slack. When I do give slack, i feel like it just stalls and doesn't slide. But i'll keep at it.

I'm using the same kite as in the video (I think). It's a Prism Nexus. I have tried with the E3 as well. Or E2, whatever it's called. I've had a few drinks. :-) I'm also doing at a beach where the wind dies about five to ten feet from the ground. Tough to figure out if that's part of the problem too.

[Exult]

9 hours ago, Brewster said:

Almost every time I get to the edge of the wind window, then do a 1/2 turn then try to turn into a slide, the kite just stalls and doesn't continue sliding. Sometimes it goes up a little, but always all the momentum is erased.  Sometimes I get it to slide maybe a foot? I am able to do regular stalls and landings but I just cannot get the slide.

I don't get it. First, aren't you supposed to, from horisontal flight, do a 3/4 of a turn at the side of the wind window to make the nose point upwards - not a 1/2 turn? Second, if you hold a stall (which you can do) at the edge of the wind window, it is difficult to avoid that the kite moves along with the wind towards the centre of the wind window.

I'm a bit surprised at a part of the description of the trick in the video: "use a downward turn at the edge to generate sideways momentum" - I just let the kite complete the 3/4 turns by falling over into a stall - then it is "just" a question of maintaining the stall. I don't think they mean however, that it is the remaining momentum after the turn that drives the kite sideways all the way (perhaps the first second or so). I think that the key phrase for initiating the slide is: "anticipate the release of the downwards turn so that the kite comes out horisontal" - here you rather handle angular momentum than momentum.

I'd say that it is kite dependent how easy the 3/4 falling over turn into a stall is performed. My Infinity and Maestro3 (and I believe 4D - should verify) won't do the 3/4 small radius turn at the edge of the wind window, while my, for this purpose tested, older kites will. For some reason Infinity and Maestro got large turning radii (plural of radius) at the edge of the wind window. How a Nexus or an E2/E3 behaves, I have unfortunately no idea of.

[Happyspoon]

Most of the turn doesn't really matter in my experience, but the last 25% going from noise pointed into the window to nose up has to be 'snappy', so the kite spins on its axis instead of just turning. This lets you maintain the direction the kite was going in before the snap. The longer the nose is pointing towards the window the faster the kite will be going and the harder it might be to snap.

Another thought is trying to turn your nose up at the edge of the window so you stall and fall into the window in a slide. It won't look super pretty but is a good way to start!

Keep at it, you'll get it!



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[Exult]

1 hour ago, Happyspoon said:

Most of the turn doesn't really matter in my experience, but the last 25% going from noise pointed into the window to nose up has to be 'snappy', so the kite spins on its axis instead of just turning. This lets you maintain the direction the kite was going in before the snap. The longer the nose is pointing towards the window the faster the kite will be going and the harder it might be to snap.

Much interesting, I'll carefully consider the start of the slides at the next opportunity! To this point it seems I've been doing it in the second way you mentioned:

2 hours ago, Happyspoon said:

Another thought is trying to turn your nose up at the edge of the window so you stall and fall into the window in a slide. It won't look super pretty but is a good way to start!

 

[RobB]

The Nexus is going to be more difficult to slide. Use the full sized E2/E3. I don't have a Nexus, but I've flown one. It's smaller size makes it a little twitchy. There is also a big difference in the way the E2 vs. the E3 flies, but they're both capable of big slides.  Once you get the slide with the full sized kite, you'll be able to do it with the Nexus. 

[Brewster]

"Another thought is trying to turn your nose up at the edge of the window so you stall and fall into the window in a slide. It won't look super pretty but is a good way to start!"

Happyspoon, thanks - this I have done, I just figured it wasn't an "authentic" slide, since it didnt originate with the turn.

Everyone else, thanks so much for these tips. I will try it with my E3 (confirmed, now that I am sober) - instead of the Nexus. 

[Exult]

During Sunday evening I had a short session (in quickly dying winds) with my Tramontana (and two other kites). Tramontana is the kite that I have tested (which is almost the same as the kites I own) that most easily performs slides and stalls. This kite makes them look good. This kite belongs to the category that just "falls through" the 3/4 turn into a stall. Sorry I can't describe it better - or perhaps I can: Consider the 3/4 turn to be a downwards short spin stall. With the little time that was available today I tried to follow the suggested way of splitting the 3/4 turn into 1/2 turn + (snap?) stall to make the slide sliding quicker sideways right after the turn. ...hmmm... I still think that the "fall over"/"spin stall" method looked better, but then I didn't try for a very long time. And you know how it is, teaching old dogs to sit . I was also a bit uncertain about the order of magnitude of the duration of the time when the nose is pointing inwards. Should the end of the 1/2 turn and the 1/4-turn/stall part have no delay, a fraction of a second delay or one/several seconds delay? For this splitted slide start, how should one think of the stall (start) part - how should it be performed?

[RobB]

IDK, maybe you could see something in this, I got in the shot while doing a couple of slides in this video @ 2:28...

 

I don't think about what I'm doing much, it tends to confuse me. The winds in the video were pretty low, around 5mph.

 

[John Barresi]

5 hours ago, Exult said:

Consider the 3/4 turn to be a downwards short spin stall.

That's how I've always looked at it, with the additional idea of using it to "throw" the kite's inertia into a slide.

[dmcneil]

The best tip I received on the slide was that once you attempt the stall you should maintain constant/consistent tension with the "leading" hand, and only make adjustments with the trailing hand. By "leading" I mean the hand on the inside of the window. To keep consistent tension may require walking forward


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[RobB]

I 'tap' my finger tip on the trailing line, it seems to help. There are constant micro-adjustments that you just have to feel as you're sliding. I'm still working on this trick, it's not easy like sliding a 4 line kite.

[dmcneil]

Rob makes a great point. Micro adjustments on the trailing hand. Another way I learned to maintain a slide was to start a stall on the upper part of the side of the window and let the kite fall into the slide. Then work on seeing how far you can keep the slide going. I found this way much easier to start a slide. Once you get the feel for maintaining a slide, entering it from the downward turn becomes easier. I can only hit that about 1/3rd of the time. But I couldn't do it at all until I got the feel for maintaining a slide.


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[Exult]

Thank you all for providing input on the details of the slide stall and also for starting the topic (though my initial idea was more to help than learn). The topic turned out to be more interesting than I originally thought.

4 hours ago, John Barresi said:

That's how I've always looked at it, with the additional idea of using it to "throw" the kite's inertia into a slide.

So, spin stall it downwards/inwards and be a little more intense in the 1/2 downwards turn to fling the kite side-wards in the stall. It is not only limited to the edge of the wind window? The 1/2 downwards turn might also be varied? Could it somehow be "flung against the wind"/"outwards towards the edge of the wind window"?

8 hours ago, RobB said:

IDK, maybe you could see something in this, I got in the shot while doing a couple of slides in this video @ 2:28...

It doesn't look like you do any pause between the downwards turn and the stall - it seems to be a single (complex) move rather than being split into two distinct parts. And the speed of the side slide was high from the start. Did also notice that the side slide was entered from above. i.e. only a 1/4 initial turn. (Btw., before joining KL I had already found some of your kiting videos on Youtube when searching for dual kite videos. Can't say that I remember this one but the one with the large blue one (Skyburner XL) I did.)

So, when you reach the centre of the wind window. How do you make to pass it and continue beyond to the other side against the wind. I can do it a bit, mostly by keeping the wing tip that is closest to the other end of the wind window a bit closer to me. Would a slight tilt of the kite with the nose slightly towards the other "edge of wind window"/outwards  work better? To a certain degree it works, but I'm not perfectly clear of how I do it. Does anyone know the preferred way (or how to separate the two if needed)?

[John Barresi]

16 minutes ago, Exult said:

So, spin stall it downwards/inwards and be a little more intense in the 1/2 downwards turn to fling the kite side-wards in the stall.

It is not only limited to the edge of the wind window? The 1/2 downwards turn might also be varied? Could it somehow be "flung against the wind"/"outwards towards the edge of the wind window"?

Pretty much.

Can be applied anywhere low in the window if you control the line tension enough that the kite doesn't power up.

My side slide example is :38 in this video...

There were some earlier comments about "leading" tension with the line on the side you're traveling toward... True - some similarity to a "quad slide" (one arm back), but very subtly.

[RobB]

I love that Kymera video, so much that I bought a Kymera from the first batch that ITW had in stock. It still gives me inspiration to get out there and work on my stuff. I watched the only Kymera video that I made, and not one side slide. JB's slide is much better, no bobbles, more like the Prism video. Sliders will find that certain kites slide better than others. A full sized kite is a good start. Prism kites seem like they are designed to slide, I haven't flown a better kite at side sliding than the Prism Prophecy. 

There are slides throughout this video, but none really show my inputs to get into the slide. @ 4:26, though, there's a slide that shows my inputs to stay in the slide. Also note, the downward turn is not the only way to enter the slide, an axel or 540 gives the sideways momentum to slide, too.

 

[Happyspoon]

I went out this morning and worked on my slides for awhile. I recorded some of it in slo motion and collected it in the first 3min of this video. You can see a lot of the ways I go wrong in detail, as well as some successes. I try to diagnose my failures too!

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[dsz]

Two key points to my view - when learning don't do the 3/4 spin at the edge of the wind-window, do it close and before the edge. Leave some tension when you do the spin and push your hends at the 3/4 while solely walking forward. Start walking forwards slowly before or while doing the spin.

Another key point (as mentioned here before) is to use only the leading hand for both the spin and slide (the one facing the inter window).

While learning, do not adjust or correct with your other hand

Good luck [emoji1]


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[Daougie]

So, is it fair to say that the bigger kites are better for learning slack line tricks?

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[SparkieRob]

So, is it fair to say that the bigger kites are better for learning slack line tricks?

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For me, yes.
I found my 7 foot kites were a little too fast for learning on. They, however, are pure freestyle kites. I'm using an 8 foot Polyvalent kite to learn on as the rotations and transitions are a little slower.


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[SHBKF]

My kite mentors suggested early on that I would do well to use a larger kite.  Many fliers start out with smaller kites as they are more affordable & perhaps a bit less intimidating.  An eight foot kite, or what used to be called a full sail, will generally fly more slowly & be easier to see in the sky.  I fly shorter lines at times to enable me to see exactly what the kite is doing.  Some kites, like this Will Sturdy Saber II, are designed to fly more slowly.  It has an extra deep sail.

It can be disconcerting to fly in lighter winds as you have to actually wait for it to slowly cross the window.  It gets there in it's own good time.  Early on I tried to fly some slower kites & thought there was something wrong with them.  Of course it wasn't the kite, it was me.  Now, with more experience, I like the slower flight as I have more time to think about what's next.  But the kite that really taught me to fly more slowly was the Skyburner Pro Dancer SUL.

The PD has a very shallow sail & is a very different kite.  Thanks for posting this topic as it has given me much to ponder & try next time I'm out there in the field.  SHBKF

 

[RobB]

On 9/16/2016 at 10:49 PM, Happyspoon said:

I went out this morning and worked on my slides for awhile. I recorded some of it in slo motion and collected it in the first 3min of this video. You can see a lot of the ways I go wrong in detail, as well as some successes. I try to diagnose my failures too!
 

 

 

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I saw a lot of good in this video... one thing that I always end up telling myself, and that I'd say about your video... more slack. Walk slowly towards the kite as you have it in a slide. Faster if the wind is higher. But, except for the lowest end of the wind scale, walk towards it. Your axels, pretty much the same thing, take at least a step towards the kite, right after the input for the axel. That gives the kite time to go all the way around before the lines tighten up & the kite flies away. You want to get that timing as close as possible to when the nose is pointed up.

Hope this helps, your flying is looking good !

[Happyspoon]

That makes sense! I think "more slack" is going to be my new mantra along with the related "walk forward". Most of my slides end with me either accidentally powering up the kite so I'm sure I'm not giving enough slack to hold the slide well!

I wish it were easier to see the lines in my videos (tried coloring with sharpie but I don't think it helped) cause I have a hard time judging how much slack I've given once line contact with the kite is "broken".

I think maybe I've been a little spoiled by the light and consistent winds at clover point all summer I need a new set of skills to deal with these fall gusts

Thanks again for all your critiques!! I just watched your last virtual freestyle entry and found it super motivational too

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[Happyspoon]

How is the slide practice going? I had a thought this morning about slides that I'd love some thoughts on.

I think fast slides come from storing momentum by pushing the leading wing back out of plane (like in a snap stall). This is easy during moves like spins or that downward drop at the edge of the window. The momentum is released by pulling the leading wing forward right at the start of the slide. this lets you put a little bit of tension on the trailing wing but you still have a higher effective wind speed on the leading wing while it is being pulled forward (back in plane). You sorta use the time bought by that move to back off tension on the trailing wing (and I guess the leading wing too a bit) to keep the kite overall in a stall.

Like John said, It feels to me a lot like you are 'throwing' sail pressure from one wing to the other, then preserving the sideways momentum gained from 'catching' the throw.

 Here is some footage from today and yesterday that I was throwing together when I decided to make this post. I quickly made a couple slide initiations into slow motion, at 3:40 and 4:30. Each slide is shown regular speed, slow motion, and regular speed again. 

Alternately you can see the wing on my Ozone pretty far out of plane during the spin before the slide here. I screw up and kill almost all the momentum though. 1:58ish in the video has a snap stall slide (is there a word for those?) though the slide part is pretty short.