Precise kite with good tracking for 10+ mph wind.

[cjay]

 I am trying to decide what kite to get for higher wind. Like 10-15 mph. I am looking for something that doesn't pull too hard, and tracks really well since I am not really doing tricks at that wind range. It needs to be able to take a beating.

 I am considering the HQ Ion as it has a good higher wind rating, but I am not sure if it is good for precision or not.

 

 

 

 

[makatakam]

If you still have the E2, try tipping the nose forward in small increments. I don't know where it was set originally, but this will make it more stable. It will, however, reduce its trickability.

[cjay]

6 hours ago, makatakam said:

If you still have the E2, try tipping the nose forward in small increments. I don't know where it was set originally, but this will make it more stable. It will, however, reduce its trickability.

 

I just checked the bridle settings and they were set just slightly to the light wind setting from the middle. I think it was set in the middle originally.

I did the 2 standoffs per side mod to the E2, anxious to try it out now.

[cjay]

I might try a Skydog Freebird or Thunderstruck for this application.

[makatakam]

With two standoffs on each side you can move their position towards or away from the spine in different increments, either together or individually to change the flight characteristics of the sail.

[cjay]

I laid the E2 on top of the Widow NG and tried to approximate the stand off locations from that. The sail shapes are different and the stand offs aren't exact either. It will be interesting to see how it works.

I am going to punch a few more holes in the reinforced area to give a few more adjustment options.

 

 

[Breezin]

AHHH don''t punch holes in a E2 unless you really really know what you're doing. Sliding stand offs are cheap to make and won't damage a soon to be classic kite. For 10 to 15 most  3/4 kites will have less pull at 15 than a Widow ng will at 10 mph. My Sky Dog Black Dog has cool graphics, non fancy design, basic 6 mm carbon frame all around, tough and flies like the dickens. Pretty precise for me. I've only flown a Addiction, Jewel, Nighthawk and Cadet in the smaller kites to compare. Black Dog beats them for precision hands down. Inputs need to come more from your wrists on the smaller kites to minimize over steer. You'll trick more on a 3/4 kite too. Won't know why for awhile cause when you yank a line the kites kinda go 🦇💩. They'll hone your reflexes for sure or you won't fly them. Black Dog is the slowest of the ones I've flown. From what you're describing the Sky Dogs might give you excellent bang for the buck. Very pleased with my Sky Dog. Yesterday winds were pretty bumpy between 3 to 12. Went up on the Zephyr and just sucked. Heavy handed day and that kite doesn't do bumpy very well. Put up the Black Dog and had a blast.

[cjay]

On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 6:03 AM, Breezin said:

AHHH don''t punch holes in a E2 unless you really really know what you're doing. Sliding stand offs are cheap to make and won't damage a soon to be classic kite.

I don't mind modifying the E2, I am not going to get rid of it anyway.

I went to Prism the other day, and they punched a few holes in it for me in the area I wanted. They put the extra holes in the reinforced area, in between the trailing edge zig zag threads.

 

On ‎8‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 6:03 AM, Breezin said:

From what you're describing the Sky Dogs might give you excellent bang for the buck.

I am going to be at the beach in Newport Oregon for a few days flying next week, and Keith at The Kite Company there has the Skydog Thunderstruck, and Freebird in stock. I might buy one just to have. He thinks they would be a good choice for what I am trying to do with it also.

I would like to know if it is capable of doing sharp turns and squares or not.

[cjay]

 

Very interesting info about the Skydog Breezin. Ended up buying a thunderstruck as a gift for someone that has never flown before. Look forward to taking them out and flying it.

Did some flying at the beach. Had many frustrating attempts and one great session. I learned some lessons.

I learned that I am not that good at judging wind speed. I set up multiple times in light wind and couldn't get the E2 or Widow NG fly. Then I kept trying to fly the Widow NG in too high of wind and broke it a bunch of ways from Sunday.

I learned that the Widow NG seems to have a fairly limited wind range. It is too heavy for a light wind kite, and breaks too easy and pulls too hard for a high wind kite. I think it is about a 5-8 ish mph kite. It also has a weird delay to turn inputs at the edge of the wind window and is unstable in a stall at the transition, which I am sure is great for tricks but sucks for actual flying in low wind. I might remove the weight and try it. When the wind is right it really is something special to fly!

I know now that I need a light wind kite, and also I want a more dedicated precision higher wind kite.

 

[Kansas Flier]

On 8/14/2018 at 9:58 PM, cjay said:

 I am trying to decide what kite to get for higher wind. Like 10-15 mph.

I would suggest going to a smaller kite in higher wind conditions. 

It won't pull as hard. It will be faster. Prism Nexus, Premier Osprey or Vision, HQ Bebop or Limbo, Beetle, and like sized kites can be fun in higher wind. ETA* To me, these kites feel like they track really well, especially the Bebop, Limbo and Beetle. 

Add a tail. 50'-100' of plastic tape(I think it's called "flagging" tape. You can get it at a hardware store), can make a nice tail, on the cheap. Just be aware of how much space you have behind your kite.  ETA* The Nexus, Osprey and Vision are my tail pullers.

[Breezin]

When it's damp I grab the Black Dog . 1st one I let go but always remembered how smooth it was. Realized pretty quick that I should get another if the price was right.Glad it's back. Didn't have the same experience with my Widow ng. Took a few months but I could fly it in 3 to 4 w/o the weight. Wasn't good enough to trick but got good at window hunting and bouncing the kite practicing ground work.5 to about 14 was sweet for me. 15 up and the pull started my back a whining. Did not have the other issues you describe. Had to replace a couple spreaders but that was on me. LS on my Zephyr,Nighthawk and Hydra all more than once.I'm at a cross roads I wasn't expecting the last couple weeks. Love my Pro Dancer but I got issues that I'm not over coming. Kite is very precise and light on the lines. Not a trick kite and I knew that going in. Jon T also made damn sure I understood that when I ordered it. PD has taught me the most about loading and unloading the sail.The other cool thing is I can practice the set up for tricks that I can then try to complete on the other kites. Problem is that 0 to 3 I am not agile enough to control the kite other than basic moves. That bores the hell out of me real fast. I put the kite into a fade,turtle or pancake and most of the time it floats away on me. Can't back up fast enough to keep tension in the lines. When the winds are 2 plus I'm better off on the Tekken or Zephyr because I'm always trying to trick. This morning winds were 0 to 4 mostly on the lower side. Perfect for the PD but grabbed the Z because of those issues. Going to sell it. Do some research on it. Might be what you need. I am 90% sure I'll get the Solus UL when my turn comes at Sky Burner this fall. Between it the Tekken SUL and the Zephyr UL my low wind will be covered until they're wore out. They are pretty different from each other. The Z has the widest wind range and in low winds is almost methodical in it's moves. Very easy going kite up to 10 or 12. Tekken takes some concentration and timing needs to be more precise. Extremely rewarding  to fly for me. Very agile kite. Stays the same throughout it's wind range.At 100" the Solus should be quite different. Not going to go big bucks on my next 0 plus kite. It'll either be a Kaiju or ITW Echo. Want both sigh. My other issue is my Hydra. Love that kite and it's the kite I've flown the most. I don't think it's construction is conducive to how my flying style is developing. I think it's well made but I am tearing it up. Today my right bridal extension sleeve split from stress. I've repaired and reinforced the battens but keep popping them out. The TE is frayed in several places with the leech line exposed. It's been repaired a couple times. Once by ITW.  Fixed several tears at the center.One major.The issues keep appearing. Do not have the problems with any other kite. It is the shape of the TE not the build quality. Several repairs at the center tee. I push the envelope with this kite all the time.I believe I took to it so well because of my time on the Addiction. Hydra gives me that same go for it feeling. Tons of fun. When I put those 2 kites in the air they seem to start taunting me. Sissy man you can't do that. What's the matter scaredy cat SCARED. Then I have to prove them wrong LOL.I know that sounds a little Psycho  but I got one of those too.Don't want to replace the Hydra but I'm going to have to sooner than later. Don't know what to replace it with that is similar though.Sucks. 

[cjay]

On August 28, 2018 at 7:15 PM, Kansas Flier said:

I would suggest going to a smaller kite in higher wind conditions. 

I plan to get something like that. I am going to try out the thunderstruck and see if that will fit the bill or not.

 

On August 28, 2018 at 10:05 PM, Breezin said:

Going to sell it. Do some research on it. Might be what you need.

I decided not to buy another kite for a few months, I need to practice with what I have more.

I did some research on the Pro Dancer Super ultra light, and you are right, i think that might be a good light wind choice for me.

[cjay]

I am really getting into flying the E2. I tried it with a 85' x 100# skybond line set, and that made a huge difference. It is much more responsive and precise now.

Compared to the Widow NG, it seems to load up smoother, be more stable at the edge of the wind window, and it is also quieter and doesn't pull as hard. It is almost as precise now. I can't quite describe it, but there is a difference in how they turn. The E2 feels more smooth especially in turning, it is also much quieter than the NG.

The E2 is my go to kite now for 9-12 mph wind range. I like it just as well as the Widow NG for just flying around. I still need to try the NG without the weight.

 

[cjay]

On ‎8‎/‎28‎/‎2018 at 10:05 PM, Breezin said:

Love my Pro Dancer but I got issues that I'm not over coming.

What issues are those?

I am considering the Pro Dancer for a UL kite. You are right, it might be exactly what I am looking for.

The other SUL kites I am considering are:

Blue Moon Mamba UL.

SKD Seven UL - Not easy to learn on.

 

UL kites that I have read are good but may not be available:

Benson Phantom (Elite) Pro UL – 8.366ft (100.39”) High apect ratio delta, forgiving, quiet. Flys as low as PDSUL. Great at axles. Bensons are too tricky (not very easy to learn on) Gliding / Sliding feel.   flies down to the same bottom end as the Prodancer SUL fully 2PT framed.                                                                                                                                         

Skyburner Ocius SUL - 84” (7ft.) 4.8 oz. Won’t fly in as low wind as PDSUL or Aura. Trickable, mid-size, straight-tracking. Great for solo or team flying.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

 Blue Moon Exile UL - 90" (7' 5")  Its a UL, but it flys lower (with a loaded sail) than most full-sized SULs

 

 

[Breezin]

Got the PD knowing it wasn't a trick kite. Watching Devin, JB and others fly one I figured I could learn how to do what they do. Nope. Can't move fast enough to stay with the kite under 3. I could get a fade, pancake or turtle but the kite would float away on me. Kite was the easiest kite to slide stall for me. Over 10 mph puts the kite at risk. Towards the end started getting some good fun on 50" lines.If tricks aren't a top priority PD is probably a hard kite to surpass.For me wading thru the differing opinions on wind range and what is a true sul gets confusing. I'm at the point now I don't care what a builder calls their kite. It's they're knowledge and skills that built the kite so call it what they will. My only experience is with the Pro Dancer sul, Zephyr ul, Tekken sul and 10 astounding minutes on a Aura sul. People say the PD is a true sul, the Z not a true ul and the Tekken more a ul. I can fly my Z with weight out on 2nd nose in setting in 1 to 2 mph with whiskers angled in. Took a long time to be able to that. I can get some axles and rotations but not much else until winds hit 3. Tekken at 2 mph I'm just trying to keep it in the air. At 3mph it  powers up real smooth and much tricking begins . From 4 to 12 kites personality stays the same. From 3 to 10 it's a absolute blast to fly. Inputs need to be clear and concise because it's not very forgiving like the Z. Above 10 I get nervous because of it's lighter framing and my skills. Had the kite in 15 mph with very little if any shudder. 37 years from now when I'm as good as Lam probably be able to trick the heck out of it in 2. Probably have a different kite by then though. Looking to replace the PD the zero wind kites is where I'm heading. Here's my list from top down so far. Air One Grid extra sul and Black Arrow sul. Grid has a slight edge because it's framed in G force skinny. More flex than the Black Arrow Sky Shark frame. I THINK! Don't know though. The next is Level one Amazing outdoor and ITW Echo. DeBakker designs. Videos of the Echo and Skate glider are really cool. I've come to believe 3 kites for 0 plus are needed to cover everything. My main goal for the next year is to build a nice 6th sense sul. Gonna take more than a few tries though. I'm leaning towards the ITW Echo due to price and ITW support. Plus they're fairly close. If my Widow Maker sul doesn't get made I'll be calling BMK. Don't think those are 0 wind trick kites though. That's fine cause I want another low wind kite to fit in with my other 2. Something very different.The Atelier Cesium Continental is last because of all the mylar. Hard to repair mylar and I think I need some better skills for a kite built like that. Kite Shoppe has it for less than 300.00 shipped. Atelier should probably be #1 BUTTT. Couple SKD kites for sale in Israel a few days ago. If not kite poor would have gotten one.After I get a Benson think SKD will be at the top for my next standard.Benson will make you a Phantom. Atelier will make any of their kites from the past too.To make a long rant short I DON'T KNOW  AAHHHH!! Yet 😋.

[cjay]

On ‎10‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 7:37 AM, Breezin said:

Can't move fast enough to stay with the kite under 3

For just flying or when trying to do tricks?

Hard to imagine the "it" kite for low wind not flying easily in low wind.

I have read that the PDSUL is one of the few kites that will actually fly in 1-3 mph without much work,  but that it has low forward speed.

On ‎10‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 7:37 AM, Breezin said:

on a Aura sul

That kite sounds really interesting. Too bad they aren't available.

I read that the Benson Phantom UL, and SKD Sevens are more trick oriented and are hard to learn on, so they might not be for me yet.

 

I need something that is easy to fly, and  doesn't take a lot of work to maintain forward speed in 1-3 mph wind, and is precise. I don't really care about the trick ability.

[Breezin]

 

1 hour ago, cjay said:

 

 

I need something that is easy to fly, and  doesn't take a lot of work to maintain forward speed in 1-3 mph wind, and is precise. I don't really care about the trick ability.

The Pro Dancer fits your description to a tee. Hope I haven't given the impression that I disliked the kite. Far from it. PD showed me the mechanics and feel of loading and unloading the sail more than any other kite I've had. Precision practice became more fun and rewarding instead of a chore to improve tricks. It changed my attitude and made me appreciate the more delicate and beautiful moves a kite can do. Without it I don't know if I could fly my Zephyr and Tekken at the bottom of their range yet.I now wrap my handles around my wrist with my forefinger extended(with middle at times). Hold the kite with my other 3 fingers and rarely let the weight rest wholly on my wrist anymore. Started by holding the lines by the loop so I could throw them to minimize damage when crashing. When winds are mostly 20 plus I'm on padded. Haven't figured out what I like best on them yet.Transition without much thought came mostly from the PD. Wrist movements improved greatly also.The kites not a trick kite but I could set up moves. Even though the kite wouldn't complete them I started being able to envision the complete follow thru in my mind. Even when coming to the ground I could keep that in my head and land softly instead of crashing.That transitioned to my other kites really well. Under 3 the kite flew very well with little need to move around. Frustration came when trying to do set ups for tricks. Under 3 here would come the float. Like you I got back issues and am just not quick enough to keep up.I had come to terms to learn more from the PD.Was going to get a ITW Echo to complement it. Unexpected deal came up and I was at a crossroads. AGAIN!! Do I want a Mongoose that bad? Yes because tricks is why I fly and it was on my dream list.100% satisfied with Sky Burner and the PD.Before Jon T accepted my order he made it very clear what the PD was made for. I got it 2 1/2 months into this kiting thing. Most other 0 wind kites would have come thru their time with me at least a little battered. My guess is it's a lot more forgiving than what I'm looking at now. When 1st learning 50' lines a side gust blew it to the ground. Put a small hole by left whisker just above trailing edge. I was crushed. What was I thinking getting a kite like that so early in? Took a long time to get over being tentative when flying it. Pro Dancers are stunningly beautiful in their seemingly simplistic design.The one kite I've had that I really couldn't stand the thought of scarring  up. Saw the video of Lams new Gravity 2 zero wind kite tricking in a park today. Okay watched it more then once. Now there's a kite I could fly on 20' or 120'.

[cjay]

On ‎10‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 8:04 PM, Breezin said:

Hope I haven't given the impression that I disliked the kite

No I didn't get that impression.

You called it right a while back, the Pro Dancer is what I am looking for in a super ultra light kite.

 

[Wayne Dowler]

Lam's new VIP Gravity 2 is actually an indoor kite. Not sure it would translate to using 120' lines, when it was designed for 10'. The 20's were an experiment in outdoor use.

[Breezin]

On 11/2/2018 at 10:25 AM, Wayne Dowler said:

Lam's new VIP Gravity 2 is actually an indoor kite. Not sure it would translate to using 120' lines, when it was designed for 10'. The 20's were an experiment in outdoor use.

Yeah you're right. Being a little smart alecky I was 😊.The short line stuff is so different. Got a 32' x 50# I've never used. Took me quite awhile before I appreciated my 50' line set. Destroyed my 1st set.One of the issues in getting a 0 wind kite is being able to fly on longer lines at the top of the kites wind range.Why the Air One kites are on the top of my list.I think. I seem to prefer 100' and am getting in a rut with them. Got 80#, 130# and 150#. Use the 80# a lot on my standards and low wind kites. The 130# in higher winds for the standards and vented. Echo outside recommended length is 32'. It's why I don't have one. Making line length one of the deciding factors is starting to seem a little foolish. Much above 3 I'll be on something else anyways. Then I think about the gusts here and line length comes right back into play. When above 3 or 4 mph they can be pretty predictable in how they warn me of their approach. Lower and they can come from any direction seemingly from nowhere. Some pretty strong and sometimes spinning. Need to be more patient and educated on this choice more than any other kite I've gotten. Have to repeat that to myself a lot. In the meantime glider? Little different skill set but man videos of glider flying are fantastic.Nope patience, patience, patience GRRR!!!