Rev B2 Frame issues

[Brett Howard]

Ok so I recently bought a Rev B2 from my local shop... I went to take it out and fly it the next day in light winds. Winds were light so I thought I'd start off with the lighter 2 wrap frame. However I noticed that only one of the 2 wrap frame pieces had a ferrule in it and that ferrule was only slightly slowed from moving in and out of the tube by the glue. So being that I was already out in the field I decided to just change course and go for the 3 wrap frame. All went OK and I was able to fly it. I called Rev and they are sending me out a new center piece... (however I'm concerned as to how that is going to work...)

I've flown it several times since then (4 total) and finally decided today to do a good cleaning on my kites. I'm a bit new to all this but I've been going out quite a lot in the couple months that I've owned Rev's. Anyway the B2 is my third REV and its the only one that I've had any frame issues with. Ok now to the issues...

Here is what I got in my kit.

2 3 wrap pieces with 1 ferrule

3 3 wrap pieces with no ferrule (this constitutes a full 3 wrap frame but isn't the LE assembled backwards?)

1 2 wrap piece with very poorly glued ferrule

4 2 wrap pieces with no ferrule (I'm assuming that the other piece that had a ferrule was also poorly glued and thus it was lost)

However when I had things apart to clean them I decided to try the ferrules in my 3 wrap frame and those are also loose enough that they will turn in the tube. All of the frames I have for my Rev 1 and my 1.5 have no issues with loose ferrules. Being that the B2 is my favorite of the kites I really kinda would like to get things right. The other day out of lazyness I swapped the B2 out in place for my 1.5 and I didn't change to the smaller handles. I really like the feel of the B2 with the larger 1.5 handles! The kite is only about a week old right now and I really believe that there is a bit of a quality issue with this one...

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

~Brett

[Guru4tru]

Hi Brett,

I don't have a Rev. B2, but I can identify with the loose ferrules. What I do when I find that is...I run some super glue around the half of the ferrule that will be going into the center section and then I lightly wipe it off quickly before it drys so the ferrule is still wet with glue, but smooth. Then I let it dry. That slightly increases the diameter of the ferrule and then I force fit it into the center rod about halfway by taping it with a hammer. If the ferrule is still loose then I apply a second thin coat, the same way as above, and build up the diameter a little more.

I first tried gluing the ferrule directly into the rods, but because of the bending of the rods I found that the glue would break down after awhile and turn to powder, but this way it has some movement available to it, but still holds in place.

There are probably some other methods to solving the ferrule problem that might be added here...I'd be interested in hearing them too.

Keep It Up!

Duane

[--Pete]

Check inside the other 2-wrap spars for the other dowel (dammit; not ferrule!). If they are loose, the other one may have been pushed inside. Or maybe in the bottom of the bag if it fell out.

Just kidding about the dowel/ferrule usage (sort of; I really do prefer dowel when talking about dowels).

A bit of CA (super) glue or even epoxy will fix you up. Just be careful to avoid making a fillet where the dowel meets the spar; the mating spar needs a nice square shoulder to rest against.

[Guru4tru]

Check inside the other 2-wrap spars for the other dowel (dammit; not ferrule!). If they are loose, the other one may have been pushed inside. Or maybe in the bottom of the bag if it fell out.

Just kidding about the dowel/ferrule usage (sort of; I really do prefer dowel when talking about dowels).

A bit of CA (super) glue or even epoxy will fix you up. Just be careful to avoid making a fillet where the dowel meets the spar; the mating spar needs a nice square shoulder to rest against.

Yeah...Like Pete said...it could be inside the rod. I had that happen once and had to pull the other "dowel (dammit; not ferrule!)" heehee!...out of the other end and used a .22 cal. rifle cleaning rod (a straightened hanger might work too) to push the "dowel (dammit; not ferrule!)" heehee! out the other end!

Keep It Up!

Duane

[Guru4tru]

Hey Pete,

I'm only about 6 or 7 years behind you and Hedgwarden...I hope I don't turn into a:

TOO! heehee! (Prickly-Prickly!)

Keep It Up!

Duane

[--Pete]

I suppose that dowel-dammit-not-ferrule will now enter the language as a mooged-into-one sort of word. Just when I was making a bit of headway.

[Spence Watson]

Here is what I got in my kit.

2 3 wrap pieces with 1 ferrule

3 3 wrap pieces with no ferrule (this constitutes a full 3 wrap frame but isn't the LE assembled backwards?)

1 2 wrap piece with very poorly glued ferrule

4 2 wrap pieces with no ferrule (I'm assuming that the other piece that had a ferrule was also poorly glued and thus it was lost)

Yes, the LE on the B2 is assembled slightly differently than other rev kites. Before the B2 came out there was only the Rev 2, which originally had a 2 piece leading edge. They later came out with a 3 piece leading edge for the rev two as a travel frame. This frame had the leading edge ferrules on the outside spars instead of the center spar so as to make it slightly smaller when rolled up. This same structure was then brought over to the B2 when it came out.

[Brett Howard]

Yes, the LE on the B2 is assembled slightly differently than other rev kites. Before the B2 came out there was only the Rev 2, which originally had a 2 piece leading edge. They later came out with a 3 piece leading edge for the rev two as a travel frame. This frame had the leading edge ferrules on the outside spars instead of the center spar so as to make it slightly smaller when rolled up. This same structure was then brought over to the B2 when it came out.

Well its good to know that the frame is supposed to be that way however the fact that the Rev rep said they were going to send a new center spar makes me wonder what it is that I'm going to get in the mail... I find it odd that people find it perfectly acceptable to have to reglue the LE on a week old kite. To me this really seems like a quality issue. Not to mention that the pad printing on the kite was pretty lack luster. Apparently its not an Original 4 line kite its an Orig Nai 4 Line IT!

Edit: I don't mean to sound so sour but at the price of these kites I expect a bit more attention to detail and quality. If I'd not ordered this kite from an authorized dealer listed on their website I'd consider flaws like this evidence that it was probably a fake.

Edit again: Just called Rev and asked them about this they said that its not normal for the ferrules to be moving and they are sending out new ones to make it right. They mentioned that they may have been rushing out the spars and that it may have just had the epoxy mixed incorrectly. They then told me I was the first one to call about it. Probably because everyone else is taking on the risk and trying to fix it themselves I guess. Anyway I also mentioned the pad printing being a bit lack luster and how that might also make one think that it was a bit of a rush job... Their comment was "so what". Boy with a comment like that it really leads me to believe that with not a whole lot of work this level of quality can be matched by fakes in China. I like to keep my money as local as possible but I usually like to see a little more pride in ones product. Especially for such a premium item.

[--Pete]

I have to say, that is a pretty poor print (silk-screen?) job. The spars/dowels should be right as well, but I think the printing would bother me more, since I can't fix it myself.

[Hedgewarden]

Years ago I ordered several "AT" compatible PCs for my unit at work (anyone remember how long ago that "AT" meant something?). The manufacturer's advertising slogan at the time was "The quality goes in before the name goes on!"

Unfortunately, as we removed the CPU units from the shipping boxes, the names fell off.

Hey people, if you want to inspire confidence in your product, pay attention to detail!

I love revs, and have not personally had quality problems. Well, OK, I did have to fish out and re-glue the ferrules (dammit dowels) in one of my 1.5's when the fdd's stuck in the outer spars instead of the center spar. But flying on the beach introduces a lot of sand to cause fdd-freeze, requiring maximum pull force to disassemble the leading edge. (Maximum force is relative to my age, kids )

I also love "Silver Fox" dual lines, although I have had issues with the stand-off (whisker) spars on every one. Fixed with Bond 527. (BTW, I'm kind of oldish, and I missed when "problems" were officially changed to "issues" )

I understand gluing can be a black art. I personally believe that super glue, helicopters, and glass cutters work by secret mojo magic, which I only occasionally can summon. But if you want to call yourself a quality manufacturer, get the proper witch doctor to summon up that mojo magic, please.

I have used "Bond 527" (I guess that is now "Beacon 527") successfully in place of superglue. It is more flexible when cured, but probably not as strong.

I have used "Gorilla glue - white" to bond golf balls to fiber-glass rods for ground spikes. It seems to expand and fit tightly and strong. Again, I think it has flexibility, but the expansion as it interacts with water (must wet one or both surfaces to make it do its thing) can be a problem if a fillet of glue would be a problem (see Pete's advice.)

And in the realm of "super glues", I have had more success with "Zap-A-Gap" than most. That is probably because it does not require a tight fit. Modelers use it a lot in RC airplanes and such. But with a tight fitting fdd and spar ... I leave you to your own experiments.

Whew, well that probably did not answer anyone's questions, but maybe it provides a clue for your own experiments.

[Brett Howard]

Glue is a very deep subject. My wife is one of the guru's of glue but she's not familiar with gluing when carbon fiber is concerned. My wife is actually a mechanical engineer and a helicopter pilot so she's quite handy to have around here and there! Anyway, thankfully REV is going to send some new spars with fdd's installed. What is funny is that when I first called they were just going to send out a center spar. It took this forum for me to figure out for sure that the B2 goes together differently and to call to tell them that. Now they are going to send another package with the correct parts. whats funny is that the want me to refuse shipment of the center spar so that they get that piece back. Heck I'd almost be ok with buying it from them but honestly I'd bet that those rods are fairly low cost as far as raw materials goes....

Oh well. Had they just lied to me and said man thats no good that your printing is messed up we'll have to start checking for that. I'd have been happy as a clam. Had they offered me a new sail because of it I'd have declined and been impressed with their dedication to quality. If/when people accept that return the problems can be returned and learned from and sold as seconds. The fact that they told me that they didn't really care about quality issues and that they are making hundreds of these kites really didn't sit well with me. I'm an electrical engineer at a company where a smaller running product line gets sold in numbers of 50,000 a year. This is for a commercial product... Was I working in the consumer sector then this 50K a year number is TINY!

I know for a fact that just a slight mismatch in plastic colors is enough for us to shut down a line and not start making product again until things are just right. I know that our customers would expect nothing less. Now for a small company who makes these things in the hundreds (their words) it almost seems to me that it would be really quite easy to have someone check each one of these kites personally. Thats just my $.02.

I'll be sure to report here how the new spars with fdd's installed are when they arrive. In the mean time I'll sit impatiently by the mailbox waiting... I've only been flying for a few months now and I'm about to take delivery of my 4th kite and a 1/4" 3-wrap frame for the REV 1. Now if I could just get some good wind this weekend!

[Guru4tru]

Hi Brett,

I can understand how you feel and I'd feel the same way that you do, if I was going through the same experience you are. But, in the years I've been flying and "ALL" the stuff I've bought, I've only encountered really nice people who were always willing to insure everything was perfect and I never had a problem with anyone or anything. Your situation is highly unusual from my experiences. Who were you dealing with?

Keep It Up!

Duane

[Wayne Dowler]

I would be very surprised if Lolly or Ben had this attitude!! Just this last week I had a problem with a bridle, they took care of it immediately!!!

[Brett Howard]

I would be very surprised if Lolly or Ben had this attitude!! Just this last week I had a problem with a bridle, they took care of it immediately!!!

I'd prefer not to name names. But lets just say that I was quite surprised too. It was mentioned that the glue may have not been mixed properly and it may have been because those were rushed a bit. I mentioned that it made sense that things were rushed a bit because the pad printing was also a bit lack luster and the reply to that was literally "so what". When I made the comment that I'd have assumed quality would be more important I was told about how many of them were being made and personally I started to feel like a number. Now granted I'm new to kiting and no one knows me here from Adam but I've spent well over a grand so far in just Revolution gear and I plan on getting into it even further. I've been a member of the shooting community for a lot of years and in that industry extra parts and things like that are very common when there is an issue. Thankfully Rev has been quite kind in offering to take care of me by getting me new spars with fdd's and I don't believe they want the old ones back. I'm grateful that I'm allowed to keep the old ones and then I can try my hand at re-gluing those. However being required to re-glue the only poles that I got on a brand new kite isn't acceptable to me. If I'd paid only 80-100 bucks for the whole setup and got a knock off then I'd consider that my own fault but when I pay retail I expect quality. So far in 3 kites I've only had one issue. I suspect that when my 4th kite arrives in the mail shortly it will also be perfect (but I'm going to be checking it closely before I take it out).

I greatly appreciate all the votes of confidence from you gentlemen. Perhaps I just caught them on a bad day.

~Brett

[windofchange]

One thing to keep in mind is that Revolution does stand behind their product and will bend over backwards to help you.....but.....

Revolution has a simple structure, based off of proven structures set up by companies all over the world to provide the best customer service ever. This structure works as Revolution being the factory who's main concentration is to produce the best possible product and to keep that product flowing in a way that their customers can obtain it. Revolution also makes many other products and the kites is only a portion of their overall business. Because the factory is mainly concerned with production, they do not have a fully staffed division for customer service issues. Instead, the seek out and contract the best possible dealers around the globe to retail Revolution product. All Authorized Revolution Dealers are required to not only stock the product, but to also provide replacement parts and customer service. Revolution feels that this type of structure will provide the end user (you and others) the fastest and best service available. After all, if you break a rod, your local shop should be able to give you a new rod the very same day. If Revolution (the factory) was the only place for customer service, it would take days or even a week or so to get a replacement rod out to you.

All of the issues you are having should have been taken up with the dealer you purchased the kite from. And that dealer should have been able to either re-glue your ferules in minutes or would have been able to hand you a replacement rod that very same visit. I know that there are several Revolution dealers up in the Oregon area that would have been more than happy to replace your parts and/or entire kite for you on the spot. Then it is up to the dealer to converse with the factory to get the issues solved. This way you would have either a new part or a completely new kite instantly and would be out flying it today instead of having the issues or waiting for the products to be sent out to you from the factory.

Now....if you happened to scour the internet looking for the cheapest price, and then ordering your kite from across the globe instead of from your local dealer ... well ... technically you should have still taken the issues up with the store you purchased the kite from - and that store should be handling these issues with you. Either way, if you order from somewhere else instead of local then if you have an issue, you must then go somewhere else to get those issues resolved.

Even still, if you take your product into your local shop, even if you didn't purchase it from them, then they would still be able to take care of it for you. They would probably re-glue your ferule for you for either no charge or a very minimal charge or they would sell you a replacement rod for a discount or they may just opt to replace it for free if you can provide a receipt showing the item is new. Even though this is a little frustrating for a dealer to repair kites or handle warranty issues for kites they did not sell, most dealers will still work with you on it because that is what your local dealer is in there for and most dealers are very friendly people who enjoy seeing kites in the air (sometimes more than seeing money in the cash drawer).

Now, because Revolution realizes that sometimes a dealer does not or can not resolve an issue with a customer, Revolution allows you to bypass them completely and go straight to the source. They recommend that you first try to work the details out with your local (or purchasing) shop first, but if you can't get the item resolved, call them directly and they will handle it the best way possible. Revolution also realizes that there are many areas in the U.S. that do not have local shops and again, if you can't get service locally, you can contact them directly for whatever you need. This is just another way they try to provide the best possible customer service.

When you deal directly with a factory via phone, text, chat or e-mail, you will never get as good as service as if you are standing inside a store working face to face. If your Ford Mustang breaks down do you call Detroit? If your Sony MP3 player breaks do you call Japan? With both of these instances you probably could call Detroit or Japan directly, but to get the best possible (and fastest) customer service, you would take it to your local Ford dealer or to Best Buy (or wherever you purchased the MP3 player). It is nice that Revolution allows you to easily contact them directly just by picking up the phone, and you don't have to go through a massive array of computer commands such as "press 1 for this", " Press 4 for this" and then wait on hold for a half hour or longer before some low level idiot tries to screen your call...nope, call Rev and if Lolly, Dave, Ben or Joe doesn't answer themselves, they answer the phone directly and can transfer you straight to Lolly, Dave, Ben or Joe. Try that with GM, Ford or other companies.

Anyways, once you do get your B2 up and flying I am sure you will more than appreciate the way it is designed, constructed and flies. It is an awesome product, even if the label isn't printed quite right. Heck, in a couple years that one kite may be a collector just because it does have an issue with the label. :) Kind of like a rare coin or stamp....who knows.

Try your local shop next time you are looking for a new kite. Even if the price is a couple bucks more, the benefit of instant service and friendship is more than worth it!

Hope that helps.

P.S. If you have any further issues and your local shop can't take care of them for you, you can give me a call as well and I will help you out.

[Brett Howard]

Appreciate the input... I did buy the kite from a local shop and I have been treated very well by that shop. Keith at The Kite Company has been really nice to deal with and has gone above and beyond to help me out! However he's 2 hours drive each way. When I first had the issue with the missing fdd I called Keith and he mentioned that I should first look for it in the rest of the rods. I did its no where to be found. He then said that he'd be able to glue one in when I was around next time. He doesn't usually have a whole lot of Rev stuff stocked. I'm sure its not really all that big of a seller for him compared to the much lower cost kites you often see in the area around here. However I did run into a guy flying an EXP for his first time in Florence last weekend that he'd gotten from Keith. I spend a bit of time and helped him past some of his frustrations. I may still be pretty new to things but I'm more than willing to try and help people out when I've got the ability. Anyway the fact that the local retailer doesn't carry much on hand often means that when I order from them they have to then turn around and order from Rev and then when it arrives there they then turn around and ship it to me. Right now I'm waiting for a Rev 1 3 wrap frame and a Full Vent B-series 1.5 that they had to order from the factory. So anyway that was my main reason for going direct to the factory to ask my question as well. I was hoping that Rev would be able to deal with it directly rather than Keith having to order things and having to do the whole ship things around deal... I don't believe he has any additional B2 stuff there but I could be mistaken there.

Again I see the automotive references as a bit out of place here. They are on a much different scale. The company I work for sells all of its products through distribution however we often deal with support claims that come back to us directly. Also had I called Rev and they simply told me to deal with my local shop for service I'd have done that. When I called them to place an order for a kite they told me to talk to the local shop (like I expected) and thats exactly what I did. I wasn't looking for a better price I was only wondering if I could get things a little faster. But when it comes to wanting to help a company out I really feel like The Kite Company is top notch and they deserve the margins they request. However when you try to agree with someone and say yea it maybe was a little bit of a rush cause there is a problem here too.... I really don't expect to hear a dismissive "so what" in return.

I do find it funny to think that this could be an investment value kite because of the flaws however that can only be if the flaws are rare. I will state (and have previously) that I've got 3 kites here and this is the only one that I've had any issues with. I'm sure that the 4th will probably have no issues either. I just hope it continues that way.

I know how vendors like to talk up the local support thing and the instant gratification route and that is totally worth something! I know how US manufacturers like to talk up quality and craftsmanship and taking care of their workers and that too is worth something. However when you hear us manufacturers get dismissive of quality issues at the same time that they bring up issue with the quality of knock-offs its frustrating. I work for a company that is currently moving its manufacturing off shore to Vietnam and I often have to deal with some of the quality issues that arise from moving things over seas. Many of these quality issues are things that you'd pretty much never see when things were made here. So this kinda hit home a little more than it probably should have. Just a few weeks ago notice was given out that 125 people are being laid off at the facility where I work. Many of these people are my friends and they cared dearly about making out products right.

Thanks again for your time and input sir!

~Brett

[Brett Howard]

Well I called and talked to Kent... Told him about the local shop that I go to... Turns out he wasn't familiar with just how small a town they were in. Anyway we had a nice chat and soon he'll be shipping me a new race frame for the B2 so I'll have a spare in the event that I run into issues. Again I keep hearing how great Rev has been to work with. So I'm fairly sure that I just caught them on a bad day.

Again thanks all....

~Brett

[Reef Runner]

Again I keep hearing how great Rev has been to work with. So I'm fairly sure that I just caught them on a bad day.

I gotta agree. I've never run into anyone, with any better customer service, or "customer care", than Revolution Kites. My hats off to "Lolly", who has bent over backwards, on several occassions, to help me out of a jam, or two...........That, I'll never forget.............and I've told her so................So thanks again, Lolly

Your North Carolina Buddy !

[Brett Howard]

Received end spars with fdd's installed for the 2 wrap and 3 wrap frame in the mail today. These were all glued properly. One of the stickers in the 2 wrap frames looked like it was pretty chewed up but I guess when you get replacement parts ya get seconds. Anyway I guess now I can try regluing the previous ones. Thankfully they aren't asking that I ship back the defective stuff. I do plan on showing them to my local shop owner before I muck with them. Hopefully I'll be taking the 2 hour pilgrimage out there here soon! Hopefully UPS is delivering my full vent B series 1.5 and a new 3 wrap Rev 1 frame tomorrow!

~Brett

[John Barresi]

Glad you were able to get it sorted Brett... Things are known to happen now and then, but Rev is very good about their service.

[windofchange]

I had the chance to talk with Brett on the phone the other day. He's a very good guy and I am glad that he will be a part of our kiting community. Also very glad that things have been sorted out and hopefully we can meet up and fly together at one of the festivals. Maybe Kite Party 10!

Thanks for the call Brett, talk to you again soon!

[Brett Howard]

I had the chance to talk with Brett on the phone the other day. He's a very good guy and I am glad that he will be a part of our kiting community. Also very glad that things have been sorted out and hopefully we can meet up and fly together at one of the festivals. Maybe Kite Party 10!

Thanks for the call Brett, talk to you again soon!

Thank you sir! And I see from my email that my new frame just shipped. SWEET!

~Brett

[Baloo]

Glad it all got sorted, I must say I have had nothing but impeccable service from Rev and it's suppliers. Had to wait a while a couple of times. And have had dowells come loose, but not on a brand new set. To be expected with all the flex.

Over the Years I have had in effect a free Rev 1 sail, thank you again to Thekiteshoppe for that, and a SWEET deal on a Blast, lines and handles form Ben.

Thank you to Rev and the whole Rev community.

[Brett Howard]

Glad you were able to get it sorted Brett... Things are known to happen now and then, but Rev is very good about their service.

I had the chance to talk with Brett on the phone the other day. He's a very good guy and I am glad that he will be a part of our kiting community. Also very glad that things have been sorted out and hopefully we can meet up and fly together at one of the festivals. Maybe Kite Party 10!

Thanks for the call Brett, talk to you again soon!

Glad it all got sorted, I must say I have had nothing but impeccable service from Rev and it's suppliers. Had to wait a while a couple of times. And have had dowells come loose, but not on a brand new set. To be expected with all the flex.

Over the Years I have had in effect a free Rev 1 sail, thank you again to Thekiteshoppe for that, and a SWEET deal on a Blast, lines and handles form Ben.

Thank you to Rev and the whole Rev community.

I very much greatly appreciate the kind words from you all. I just drove 4 hours to go and get my full vent B series 1.5 from my local shop. Winds should be really good down south where the parents live. My dad is curious all this kite flying stuff I've been talking about so for father's day I'm headed down to take him out to the beach and teach him how to fly. Here's hoping I can bring another member into the fold.

~Brett

[windofchange]

..........and the addiction spreads............................