Winding and unwinding Quad Lines, possible solution.

[Captainbob]

I have been reading the suggestions, and comments on this forum and a couple of others on ways to wind and unwind quad lines, without having the problem with tangles, knots, etc... It seems that most people use a method that is either on JB's tutorial videos, or have developed their own method, which works for them. I have read more than a few comments however, where people have stated that no matter what they do and how careful they follow their routine, they wind up having to deal with line twist and tangle problems after they are hooked up to the handles and kite.

Since I am a total newbie at all this, it got me to thinking about my experience with my 2 line HQ Symphony 1.8, which I have set up many times. I have had zero problems with line issues, with that kite, and I attribute that to the fact that just two lines are pretty simple to roll out straight, hook up and fly. Now here is my question, if the quad flyer used two line holders instead of one, and put one set of two lines on a holder marked left, and the other set of lines on a holder marked right, that should be the end of any line issues, period. I thought that some might say, "well yeah, but you would be doing double work in setting up and tearing down, because you would have two sets of line to roll and unroll instead of one, so you would be walking back and forth and unrolling twice as much. OK, so I stake the left line set , and start unrolling towards the kite. When I get to the kite, I hook that set to the left side of the kite. Now I hook the right 2 line set to the kite, and start walking towards the stake, unrolling the line along the way, hook to the handles, and I am ready to go. If one really wanted to be foolproof, use 2 stakes set up 3-4 feet apart, so there would be absolutely no way the left and right lines could tangle with each other, and no way to get twists, tangles, etc, that would take more than about 5 seconds to remedy.

Any thoughts? Total cost would be about $6 to buy another line holder. Hours saved in untangling, and swearing at lines, "priceless"....

[Wayne Dowler]

I did it another way - I would wind up one pair figure 8 style, then wind the second pair right over them in a straight wind!! The only flaw in your logic is the kite won't be stable during the unwind of the second set to the handle! IF you use 2 winders, run out both sets first, then hook the kite up and remember to leave it inverted for safety!!

There are lots of ways to do this, use what YOU feel comfortable doing!! But as someone who switched after doing it "MY" way to JB's, I've never had any big issues using his methods!! Have I added my own little changes - sure have!! But they are mine and I do it every time exactly the same - no change!! Get comfortable with a method, any method and OWN IT!

[Captainbob]

I did it another way - I would wind up one pair figure 8 style, then wind the second pair right over them in a straight wind!! The only flaw in your logic is the kite won't be stable during the unwind of the second set to the handle! IF you use 2 winders, run out both sets first, then hook the kite up and remember to leave it inverted for safety!!

There are lots of ways to do this, use what YOU feel comfortable doing!! But as someone who switched after doing it "MY" way to JB's, I've never had any big issues using his methods!! Have I added my own little changes - sure have!! But they are mine and I do it every time exactly the same - no change!! Get comfortable with a method, any method and OWN IT!

Good idea, laying line out twice towards the kite.

[Wayne Dowler]

CB - sent you a couple of PMs to view! Any more questions, I'll be glad to offer help!!

[Reef Runner]

Folks, this really isn't this difficult. As Wayne said, figure out a way to do, your way, if you have to use 4 winders ! Just figure it out. I've never done it any way, other than JB's method, and that has always worked for me, just fine. YES, you are going to have a twist or two to deal with, either between the left and right pairs, or between the tops and bottoms, but that's not a deal breaker. It's all manageable, and there is nothing like time on the winder, to figure it out. This is not rocket science.........

Hey CB........now I bet you see why I told you to watch the "Line Management" video, over and over, and then watch it again, and then when you were sick of it, to watch it again. Then take what you learned out in the yard (not the flying field), and practice, practice, practice. When I started, I indeed, had a couple of "real mess" days. I thought I knew what I had seen JB do on the video, but it hadn't really sunk in. I went back and watched and watched. Then that little light went off, and once I got it clear in my own mind, it's been smooth sailing.......

I said before in another topic, Wayne said earlier also. Develop yourself a method that works, and OWN it. Once you develop that method, whether you use one winder, two winders, do it every time, the same way, and never vary..........good luck

Hey - "Line Management", is a very big part, of making this hobby that we all love, even more enjoyable. I've never heard a single person say, "hey, I just had a great day, untangling kite lines". Make it work...........

[Captainbob]

One of the things I did prior to retirement was to take a technical procedure ( I was a Training Manager for a very large multi-national company teaching very complex assembly and adjustment procedures) and try to make them simple and bullet proof for the students. So, when I look at something new, I am always running it through that filter. I watched the line management video till I was blue in the face like a smurf, but, still managed to hit some bumps in the road when unwinding to connect to handles and kite. It got better with practice, but in my experience, it wasn't foolproof, at least for this fool . On the other hand, multiple times winding and unwinding with my 2LK, I had zero problems. If I compare 2 procedures, one that has the potential of zero errors, and one that has a potential for some problems, however small, once the line is rolled out, I lean heavily towards the zero error method, especially since it doesn't take any longer than the other method.

So today I ordered another line holder, and in the mean time, I will try the Tutorial method, record the results, time spent, and difficulty, and then when the holder comes in, I will try the 2 holder method, and post my comparative results using the 2 methods. Whichever is quicker, with less problems, is probably what I will wind up doing. ( no pun intended)

[Reef Runner]

Excellent approach. As we've said, find out what works for you, and if you like it, and it works........OWN it ! It's your method, so stick to it. We want to think that you are still smiling, once you get hooked up, and ready to launch, on the next fly-day.............

[MGower]

sorry i wasn't clear with my statement only once had totally clear lines, most of the time had one or two wraps and maybe one or two twists no biggie about 3 seconds to clear and then I'm flying, as i'm sure most others will agree is the norm, (me personally I am anal retentive) you will spend more time trying to make 4 lines always perfect than just winding in a similar fashion each time and taking the time to take out the one or two wraps for a couple of seconds than to be perfect each time. Have fun, feel the juice, enjoy the wind and fly.

[Reef Runner]

sorry i wasn't clear with my statement only once had totally clear lines, most of the time had one or two wraps and maybe one or two twists no biggie about 3 seconds to clear and then I'm flying, as i'm sure most others will agree is the norm,

Absolutely, and it will never be a perfect process, just manageable. The simple nature, of what you are doing, is going to create a tangle or twist, but again, easily corrected. As I always like to mention, this isn't rocket science. It's just string, but it's still very, very, manageable, with a little close attention, and TLC............

[mystainedskin]

I never get mine right. Always just make sure I have the right handle in the proper hand and sort ot out on the air.

I do untwist everything and wind up the same way each time. ..either on the card or handles.

[SHBKF]

I still hesitate to fly quad at night. First flight with my Blast was at night in a mall parking lot in Myrtle Beach just before Christmas. Assembled the Blast inside the little motor home, pulled it out the back doors & leaned it against the side of the van. Then I started running out my 50# x 50' line set. Guess I struggled with some tangles for a bit too long because a young lady saw me leaned over for a long time & came by to see if I was okay. I got pretty animated when she almost ran over my line set. I assured her I was fine, thanked her for her concern & while she watched, the last tangle fell apart. I launched in a nice little breeze, flew about ten minutes & the dang phone brought me back to reality. It was time to pick up the shopper. My new thought is to only use 90# or stronger at night as it seems to not be so prone to tangles as those fine little 50# lines.

[Reef Runner]

Can't believe you got it up, the first time, under those conditions..............

I salute you, Sir..........

[windpoacher]

I hold the handles on a winder, figure 8 to the kite,...... 2 minute set up

keeping handles , lines and kite all attached

[Reef Runner]

I hold the handles on a winder, figure 8 to the kite,...... 2 minute set up

keeping handles , lines and kite all attached

Voila !

[RobB]

Hey CB...

When I got my first quad (a NT Spirit), the brake lines came on a separate winder from the top lines. Also, come to think of it, my first quad foil, a 3m Radsail, came with two winders. That's how I did it, like you describe, until a few years ago, I got my first Rev. I watched all of JBs videos, including line management, and have followed everything the best I could. I still end up with wraps in the lines, but I fly them out, instead of trying to straighten them on the ground before I fly. I usually end up landing to twist the right or left handle once or twice, but keep in mind, no matter how twisted the lines are, you still have basic control.

It is rare that I get involved in an extended untwisting project, but I think I did maybe twice last year. It was always as a result of packing up in haste the last time I was out. When you're done flying, make sure you land with only 1/2 a wrap in the lines, wind 'em up figure 8 or straight style, and there should be minimal problems the next time out. Remember what JB says about what looks like wraps in the lines, most of the time really aren't. I've found that to be true.

I used to cause myself endless stress and trouble with the lines by overthinking it. Now that I've gotten used to it, it doesn't take much more time to setup a quad than a dual line.

~Rob.

[Andrew Beattie]

I disagree with ALL of you.

Be sensitive to the equipment. Learn what is happening as you wrap, learn the impact that it has on the lines. Look at what is happening.

If you always do it by rote and rely on that, then you'll be in hell when you get your gear back from someone who is left handed. Or works from the other end. Or changes the direction of wind part-way through for some unfathomable reason[*] Did they pack the lines on the handles - if so, were the brakes on? Or was the kite upside down, brakes off? Did they pack the line round a beer can? Into a plastic bag?

if it is going wrong, stop, it helps if you notice. And stop and fix it. Or wind back, or unwind off the other end.

Learn how it all works. That way, you can share anyone's kite, packed any way, without it looking like it is your first day...

Andrew

[*] I do this on single line stuff when I must pack onto a winding stick that isn't really big enough. to fig-8 the whole thing.

[John Barresi]

While it's not the "only" way, the Line Management (tutorial) technique is foolproof when applied correctly, right or left handed, straight or figure eight wind.

So are several other ways - the key is understanding them, finding one that works for you, and the real key, eliminating the variables.

The act of winding itself does not create the "end result" twists, those come from all the little variables in-between...

- when you paired the right lines (top/bottom), did they go around each other at all?

- when you put the pairs together, did you put one through or around the other?

- when you picked up your handles, did they spin or go through each other?

- when you handled your winder throughout the process, did you rotate it at all?

- when you first set up, did your handles pass through or spin around?

- when you first set up, did the R/L pairs (kite end) go through or around each other?

- etc, etc, etc.

The real key again, is picking a consistent method that works for you, with an eye on all the variables listed above.

For the record, I almost *always* have at least 2-3 twists in one direction and possibly one handle pass-through, all easily taken out in a minute or less.

Main thing for me, I just don't let the ends "bounce around" at all.

[Captainbob]

Hey CB...

When I got my first quad (a NT Spirit), the brake lines came on a separate winder from the top lines. Also, come to think of it, my first quad foil, a 3m Radsail, came with two winders. That's how I did it, like you describe, until a few years ago, I got my first Rev. I watched all of JBs videos, including line management, and have followed everything the best I could. I still end up with wraps in the lines, but I fly them out, instead of trying to straighten them on the ground before I fly. I usually end up landing to twist the right or left handle once or twice, but keep in mind, no matter how twisted the lines are, you still have basic control.

It is rare that I get involved in an extended untwisting project, but I think I did maybe twice last year. It was always as a result of packing up in haste the last time I was out. When you're done flying, make sure you land with only 1/2 a wrap in the lines, wind 'em up figure 8 or straight style, and there should be minimal problems the next time out. Remember what JB says about what looks like wraps in the lines, most of the time really aren't. I've found that to be true.

I used to cause myself endless stress and trouble with the lines by overthinking it. Now that I've gotten used to it, it doesn't take much more time to setup a quad than a dual line.

~Rob.

A question to you then, when you were using your initial method of of 2 holders, how many times did you wind up with any type of tangle when setting the kite up?

[Captainbob]

While it's not the "only" way, the Line Management (tutorial) technique is foolproof when applied correctly, right or left handed, straight or figure eight wind.

So are several other ways - the key is understanding them, finding one that works for you, and the real key, eliminating the variables.

The act of winding itself does not create the "end result" twists, those come from all the little variables in-between...

- when you paired the right lines (top/bottom), did they go around each other at all?

- when you put the pairs together, did you put one through or around the other?

- when you picked up your handles, did they spin or go through each other?

- when you handled your winder throughout the process, did you rotate it at all?

- when you first set up, did your handles pass through or spin around?

- when you first set up, did the R/L pairs (kite end) go through or around each other?

- etc, etc, etc.

The real key again, is picking a consistent method that works for you, with an eye on all the variables listed above.

For the record, I almost *always* have at least 2-3 twists in one direction and possibly one handle pass-through, all easily taken out in a minute or less.

Main thing for me, I just don't let the ends "bounce around" at all.

I see your point, and those are all things that I will check on when winding and unwinding the lines from now on.

[John Barresi]

A question to you then, when you were using your initial method of of 2 holders, how many times did you wind up with any type of tangle when setting the kite up?

Just for clarity... Are you asking about twists (spins in the line) or tangles (tightened loops around loops)?

Different animals, totally different causes - might help the discussion to be fairly specific about this aspect.

[Reef Runner]

A question to you then, when you were using your initial method of of 2 holders, how many times did you wind up with any type of tangle when setting the kite up?

Oh, and I know you didn't ask me, but I've never had a dual line to mess-up !

Actually, it's pretty hard to mess up just two lines. If that works for you, then use the two winder method. It may take a bit longer to set-up / take-down, but if it will put you in the air easier, go for it. As JB, and many of us have said, first, you've got to understand what is happening, and why, and then learn to manage it. Nothing like time spent on the winder, to accomplish this. (I know, we sound like a broken record)

[Captainbob]

A question to you then, when you were using your initial method of of 2 holders, how many times did you wind up with any type of tangle when setting the kite up?

Just for clarity... Are you asking about twists (spins in the line) or tangles (tightened loops around loops)?

Different animals, totally different causes - might help the discussion to be fairly specific about this aspect.

The few times that I used the 4 line winding method, I had twists, and tangles, both. The third time I tried it, I was almost to the point of throwing the resulting tangle of lines in a trash can and getting a new set... I must have walked back and forth for over a 1/2 hour and finally got each line separated from the others, one at a time, before winding them all together. I admit , this was most probably due to not being careful enough in winding and unwinding and the mistakes that could be made doing either of both incorrectly, although I tried to follow the tutorial step by step.

The next thing I did was to read forum posts some posters difficulties with 4 line winding and unwinding, and I saw that some other folks also had problems. Some posters even mentioned using two holders or winding the line on the two separate handles. A couple of posters even mentioned that they gave up flying four lines, because of the line hassle factor. This is what got me to thinking about my experience with 2 lines at a time, with zero problems. I tried to pinpoint why the 2 lines at a time method for a quad, would be problematic in any way, and couldn't think of any negative, other than having to get another line holder, and one more trip from the stake to the kite.

I then decided that a comparison between the two methods might be interesting, and I could prove to myself which method would be more efficient " for me". I am going to give the 4 lines at a time method some sufficient practice, to make sure I am not making any possible mistakes, and giving it a fair chance. Then I will try the two line method, compare problems, and time spent, and then figure out which one I will adopt. The ultimate goal I want to achieve, is unroll my lines, hook them to the kite, pick up the handles, and fly. I always like experimenting...

Now if I can just figure out how to keep the earphone cords on my Android phone from getting tangled up in my pocket.

[Captainbob]

A question to you then, when you were using your initial method of of 2 holders, how many times did you wind up with any type of tangle when setting the kite up?

Oh, and I know you didn't ask me, but I've never had a dual line to mess-up !

Actually, it's pretty hard to mess up just two lines. If that works for you, then use the two winder method. It may take a bit longer to set-up / take-down, but if it will put you in the air easier, go for it. As JB, and many of us have said, first, you've got to understand what is happening, and why, and then learn to manage it. Nothing like time spent on the winder, to accomplish this. (I know, we sound like a broken record)

When I do this comparison between the two methods, I am going to record the average two line setup time, and compare it with the average 4 line method, and see what the difference is.

[Reef Runner]

When I do this comparison between the two methods, I am going to record the average two line setup time, and compare it with the average 4 line method, and see what the difference is.

The difference.........you shouldn't have any (or minimal) problems with the two-winder/two-line method, just a twist or two. But, as everyone has acknowledged, you will always have a twist, and/or tangle or two, to deal with, using the one-winder/four-line method...but again, they are manageable, and most of what initially looks to be tangles, or twist, really aren't.

One day you are going to look back at this and say to yourself, "man, I can't believe I had such a difficult time with this". After a while, you'll get it, and you'll never look back. I still think that you are putting way too much into this, trying to prepare yourself for a perfect un-wind, and in reality, there may be no such thing, as a perfect, four line un-wind.

If I unwind my lines, and see that they are pretty well straight, I usually can get the kite into the air, and that will usually straighten things out, at least to a point so they can quickly be remedied during a quick landing, or maybe even in the air...........

Again.....good luck........and practice, practice, practice.

[northwavesailor]

Don't know if this question was 'tongue in cheek', but regarding tangled earbuds on your phone, check out a YouTube video called "How to Wrap your Headphones" for some interesting options.

A question to you then, when you were using your initial method of of 2 holders, how many times did you wind up with any type of tangle when setting the kite up?

Just for clarity... Are you asking about twists (spins in the line) or tangles (tightened loops around loops)?

Different animals, totally different causes - might help the discussion to be fairly specific about this aspect.

The few times that I used the 4 line winding method, I had twists, and tangles, both. The third time I tried it, I was almost to the point of throwing the resulting tangle of lines in a trash can and getting a new set... I must have walked back and forth for over a 1/2 hour and finally got each line separated from the others, one at a time, before winding them all together. I admit , this was most probably due to not being careful enough in winding and unwinding and the mistakes that could be made doing either of both incorrectly, although I tried to follow the tutorial step by step.

The next thing I did was to read forum posts some posters difficulties with 4 line winding and unwinding, and I saw that some other folks also had problems. Some posters even mentioned using two holders or winding the line on the two separate handles. A couple of posters even mentioned that they gave up flying four lines, because of the line hassle factor. This is what got me to thinking about my experience with 2 lines at a time, with zero problems. I tried to pinpoint why the 2 lines at a time method for a quad, would be problematic in any way, and couldn't think of any negative, other than having to get another line holder, and one more trip from the stake to the kite.

I then decided that a comparison between the two methods might be interesting, and I could prove to myself which method would be more efficient " for me". I am going to give the 4 lines at a time method some sufficient practice, to make sure I am not making any possible mistakes, and giving it a fair chance. Then I will try the two line method, compare problems, and time spent, and then figure out which one I will adopt. The ultimate goal I want to achieve, is unroll my lines, hook them to the kite, pick up the handles, and fly. I always like experimenting...

Now if I can just figure out how to keep the earphone cords on my Android phone from getting tangled up in my pocket.