Curiosity about Dual Line Kites

[Captainbob]

I wonder how long it will take for me to learn to fly my Widow like this

My guess is 2-3 years with 5+ hours per week practice...

I'm gonna add to that... you'll probably never learn to fly like that without someone assisting you LIVE. In person.

I watched all the dualie trick DVDs back in the day. After a solid year I was still struggling big time. I finally learned where the local flyers go, and John Chilese taught me more in 30 minutes than watching 3 hours of combined DVD material over 100 times ever did. But he got to me too late; by then the Dark Side had consumed me �

Big problem in Atlanta, apparently I am the "local flyer."

[RobB]

I'm gonna add to that... you'll probably never learn to fly like that without someone assisting you LIVE. In person.

It is not impossible to learn to fly like that on your own, using videos & youtube. It just takes a l-o-n-g time. I only got help in person with one trick, the flic-flac. The guy wasn't even teaching me, I just watched him for 5 minutes. It is a lot easier to learn from someone, no doubt... I have taught people in an afternoon how to 540, a trick that took me around a year of constant trying to learn on my own.

When frustration sets in, remember to back off whatever you're trying to learn and do something simple, like flying box turns, practicing stalls, side slides. Every trick you learn is always going to need more work... the way I look at it, it's a lifetime endeavor to learn to fly like that. Kiting is supposed to be fun, after all.

[SkyPuppets LimitVoodoo]

I hear ya, brother. I really do. There are maybe 8 kite flyers here, and the others all do SLKs or dualies. And they all live a 45 minute drive away. I AM the only Rev pilot (I can find) in Vegas.

[SkyPuppets LimitVoodoo]

Like I said Must86, "probably"

[Captainbob]

I'm gonna add to that... you'll probably never learn to fly like that without someone assisting you LIVE. In person.

It is not impossible to learn to fly like that on your own, using videos & youtube. It just takes a l-o-n-g time. I only got help in person with one trick, the flic-flac. The guy wasn't even teaching me, I just watched him for 5 minutes. It is a lot easier to learn from someone, no doubt... I have taught people in an afternoon how to 540, a trick that took me around a year of constant trying to learn on my own.

When frustration sets in, remember to back off whatever you're trying to learn and do something simple, like flying box turns, practicing stalls, side slides. Every trick you learn is always going to need more work... the way I look at it, it's a lifetime endeavor to learn to fly like that. Kiting is supposed to be fun, after all.

The other issue, is that the "local flyer" may be totally clueless either in his ability to fly correctly, or to show someone else how to fly without ok imparting their own mistakes. I'll take my chances watching people like Mark Reed. and Dodd Gross, which I can do over and over again. So far, it's worked with me on Revs, watching JB's tutorials.

[SkyPuppets LimitVoodoo]

Um, you'd know if the other flyer was clueless just by watching, then you wouldn't bother?

Learning the Rev through video is one thing.... Learning line management on a dualie is another... No offense guys, it was just a suggestion, I just can't imagine spending a whole year practicing one trick before I nail it. But to each their own, good luck Captainbob, I'm a big fan of Must86's flying so I'm hopeful for you.

[Captainbob]

Um, you'd know if the other flyer was clueless just by watching, then you wouldn't bother?

Learning the Rev through video is one thing.... Learning line management on a dualie is another... No offense guys, it was just a suggestion, I just can't imagine spending a whole year practicing one trick before I nail it. But to each their own, good luck Captainbob, I'm a big fan of Must86's flying so I'm hopeful for you.

I have been flying dualies a couple of weeks, already can do a decent side slide. stall landing, tip landing, and cartwheel recovery, and a bunch of patterns like squares, figure 8's etc. Sorry, but I don't think it's rocket science. I've learned things that were alot more difficult than kite flying by myself. Some study, and really focused practice will usually do the trick, in my opinion. Most people are not near another competent flyer, and are probably unwilling to travel round trip several hundred or more miles each way, for a "lesson" with some flyer that maybe has a year or more experience than they do and might have questionable abilities as both a teacher and a flyer. I think telling newbies that the only way they can learn properly in a timely manner is to have a private tutor show them , probably does more to discourage people from beginning to fly kites than anything else. I live in a city of around 5,000,000 people, and if I thought that my learning to fly a kite was dependant on me being able to locate someone that was willing and able to show me how to fly one, I wouldn't have bought my first kite. When I started flying Revs, I read things on forums like " It will take you a year and hundreds of hours just to do an inverted hover on a Rev, unless someone shows you in person. Guess what, I probably have less than 40 hours on Revs, and I do a pretty good inverted hover, and nobody showed me anything except JB via his videos.

Just my 2 cents.

[SkyPuppets LimitVoodoo]

Sorry Captainbob but I didn't say it was the only way... I don't care what's being read into it, I didn't say it. You've got the basics down, and no, they aren't rocket science, but I was referring to the tricks in the video... most of them aren't novice material. Must86 flies well, but he says he frequently flies with lab-grade winds, and I promise the Widow NG video was flown in great conditions, not like the ones you are describing in Atlanta.

Let me offer up the flip side to your argument of not telling newbies to seek out live help- how many folks bought stunt kites and didn't find help, and gave up on it because they couldn't do what they saw in the videos, training or otherwise? Maybe they didn't know how much easier it was to learn with a teacher, or that teachers are even available, or that most competent flyers are willing to show off some things and that it's ok to ask? It makes sense to tell newbies how difficult the tricks shown in the video are, and that they can expect it to be difficult to learn that kind of flying without serious help. By the way, you paid to subscribe here to watch the training vids Captainbob, so looks like you believing in paying for a teacher, so why wouldn't you recommend that to a newbie?

I'm not interested in having my advice picked apart anymore. I made a logical, experienced suggestion, that was good natured and had good intentions. I guess it's because of my writing style... Anyways, I sincerely hope to see you flying, someday, like we see in that video of the widow flying Captainbob.

My final .02 here.

[RobB]

JB makes the best tutorials that I've seen. I've watched them all, many times over. I am anxiously awaiting him to continue the dual line series of tutorials. You mention Dodd's Flight School videos, and Prism videos... don't forget the Mama74 and RandyG videos. I also got alot out of watching everyday fliers' videos. We used to have a nice group on the ClassyKite forum that would help each other figure out tricks. I started making videos that were for the purpose of asking more experienced pilots 'what am I doing wrong ?'. I would also review the raw footage to critique myself.

As far as learning from others that may not be the most talented.... it doesn't matter. The same guy that I taught the 540 taught me some inputs that I hadn't thought of, it really helps to see these inputs in real life & see what they do. Watching Mark Reed with his rhythmic snap stall advice makes great sense when you're watching it in the living room, but is extremely frustrating when you get out to the field and actually try to replicate that. I say, take it all in, whatever you can.

It is strange to live in a dense population, and be the only one who flies locally. Believe me, I know. I've been lucky to convince a few friends to join me at the beach from time to time, but they just haven't been bitten by the kite bug enough to buy their own kites and fly seriously. It is good to have company out on the field once in a while, though.

Bottom line, I wish you the best of luck, and hope you make great progress quickly.

[Captainbob]

JB makes the best tutorials that I've seen. I've watched them all, many times over. I am anxiously awaiting him to continue the dual line series of tutorials. You mention Dodd's Flight School videos, and Prism videos... don't forget the Mama74 and RandyG videos. I also got alot out of watching everyday fliers' videos. We used to have a nice group on the ClassyKite forum that would help each other figure out tricks. I started making videos that were for the purpose of asking more experienced pilots 'what am I doing wrong ?'. I would also review the raw footage to critique myself.

As far as learning from others that may not be the most talented.... it doesn't matter. The same guy that I taught the 540 taught me some inputs that I hadn't thought of, it really helps to see these inputs in real life & see what they do. Watching Mark Reed with his rhythmic snap stall advice makes great sense when you're watching it in the living room, but is extremely frustrating when you get out to the field and actually try to replicate that. I say, take it all in, whatever you can.

It is strange to live in a dense population, and be the only one who flies locally. Believe me, I know. I've been lucky to convince a few friends to join me at the beach from time to time, but they just haven't been bitten by the kite bug enough to buy their own kites and fly seriously. It is good to have company out on the field once in a while, though.

Bottom line, I wish you the best of luck, and hope you make great progress quickly.

Seems like JB's tutorials stalled after the 1st one on assembling and folding a dualie, which was done in January of 2011, over 3 years ago. I am looking forward to his second dualie tutorial, but it would seem that this is not on his radar anymore. Incidentally, I thought his first tutorial was great, as all of his are. I've watched Dodds tutorials, but I think the Prism DVD is a much better and more organized approach in teaching the basics and how the complex tricks are based on getting the fundamentals down first. As someone that has spent most of my working career teaching adults, I think mastering one task at a time, is the proper and most productive way to learn using these DVDs. Until you have all the stalls mastered, don't even look at the next topic, unless it is just for entertainment purposes. You can't get to D, unless you have A-B-C down first. That seems to be the focus of Mark's DVD.

My biggest obstacle to quickly learning the fundamentals, is erratic wind conditions where I live. If I could actually fly a few hours a day. I think my progress would be much, much better, but when I have to spend half to three quarters of my flying time waiting for the next breeze to come along, that's a bummer. I'm sure that there are many people that experience the exact same problem, especially if they live inland. There is a kite shop in Atlanta, where I bought my first foil kite, and I am wondering if they can stay in business or not, due to the flying conditions here in this city. Most people don't want to spend money on a couple of decent kites, and then not be able to fly them for weeks or months due to poor winds which are the rule rather than the exception. I'm lucky, because I am basically retired and live next to a flying field, all I have to do is grab my kites and walk a couple of blocks and I'm there, if the wind is up. The vast majority of people in my city, don't have that opportunity. Relating that to getting a pilots license, if you can afford to fly 2-3 hours a week as a student pilot, you could probably take your flight exam and get your license in around 40 hours, or about 3-4 months. If you are on a budget, and can only afford to fly once a week, or less, by the time you take your next lesson, you have forgotten half of what you learned in the previous lesson. I have seen pilots take 55-60 hours or more, prior to taking their exam, and spending more than a year as a student pilot. Many just drop out, and never get their licenses. I would imagine that the same kind of learning curve would occur with flying kites. Fly every day, and your progress would be excellent. Have to wait a week or two to get back up in the air, and it's like starting almost from the beginning.

[Tmadz]

Cap'n, you may actually be better suited to learning dualies where you live. Dualies trick and track much better in wind under 12mph. SUL's are good for very light winds and the slack needed to trick is much easier to obtain in light and inconsistent wind. While laboratory grade beach winds are optimum for everyone, I think you will be plenty busy learning both types of kites. JB has.

[Hadge]

Where I live in rural Lincolnshire I AM the only local kite flier - it's very much a minority sport in the UK anyway, most people who fly prefer big 'power' kites. I've had to teach myself everything from scratch by trial and error and from online tutorials - I've been flying 5 years and I'm now OK but by no means an expert. You can teach yourself, it will take a long time, but you can do it. Watch all the videos again and again and try to understand exactly what is happening - I even made a little cardboard cut out kite so that I could get into my head exactly what the kite needed to do. Don't get too ambitious to start with - get the basic take off, landing, control then the snapstall then backflips and the easy tricks and gradually build up. I use to look to add maybe 2-3 tricks a year at first, as you get better you find you will pick stuff up more quickly. You will find you have 'Nemesis' tricks - tricks, not always hard ones, that you just CANNOT get then suddenly one day it will click - mine were the 540 and the backspin. If you can't seem to get a trick you will usually find giving more slack helps most of the time! If you can get any time with experienced fliers grab it!! - It's gold dust. Finally keep at it, it will eventually come. Oh yes, remember to keep moving your feet! I use to stand rooted to one spot, you need to move.

By the way have you seen these? - they show you what your hands should be doing.

http://www.prismkites.com/lounge-training.php

[Captainbob]

Cap'n, you may actually be better suited to learning dualies where you live. Dualies trick and track much better in wind under 12mph. SUL's are good for very light winds and the slack needed to trick is much easier to obtain in light and inconsistent wind. While laboratory grade beach winds are optimum for everyone, I think you will be plenty busy learning both types of kites. JB has.

That is kind of what I am finding out. I keep waiting for the winds to improve as time goes on, but I am starting to think that " It is what it is".

[Captainbob]

Where I live in rural Lincolnshire I AM the only local kite flier - it's very much a minority sport in the UK anyway, most people who fly prefer big 'power' kites. I've had to teach myself everything from scratch by trial and error and from online tutorials - I've been flying 5 years and I'm now OK but by no means an expert. You can teach yourself, it will take a long time, but you can do it. Watch all the videos again and again and try to understand exactly what is happening - I even made a little cardboard cut out kite so that I could get into my head exactly what the kite needed to do. Don't get too ambitious to start with - get the basic take off, landing, control then the snapstall then backflips and the easy tricks and gradually build up. I use to look to add maybe 2-3 tricks a year at first, as you get better you find you will pick stuff up more quickly. You will find you have 'Nemesis' tricks - tricks, not always hard ones, that you just CANNOT get then suddenly one day it will click - mine were the 540 and the backspin. If you can't seem to get a trick you will usually find giving more slack helps most of the time! If you can get any time with experienced fliers grab it!! - It's gold dust. Finally keep at it, it will eventually come. Oh yes, remember to keep moving your feet! I use to stand rooted to one spot, you need to move.

By the way have you seen these? - they show you what your hands should be doing.

http://www.prismkites.com/lounge-training.php

Yes, as well as the videos, I frequently visit and study that page on the Prism site. And I totally agree about keeping the feet moving, which I did not do in the very beginning. Now I am moving constantly when I fly.

[John Barresi]

More dual line tuts are on my radar, just a matter of kites, time, weather and staff - sorry for the delay.

[Wayne Dowler]

Cap'n, you may actually be better suited to learning dualies where you live. Dualies trick and track much better in wind under 12mph. SUL's are good for very light winds and the slack needed to trick is much easier to obtain in light and inconsistent wind. While laboratory grade beach winds are optimum for everyone, I think you will be plenty busy learning both types of kites. JB has.

That is kind of what I am finding out. I keep waiting for the winds to improve as time goes on, but I am starting to think that " It is what it is".

CB - you're understanding it!! You just have to go out and learn to fly in the conditions at hand!! Wait for perfect winds and you'll be doing just that - waiting!! Figuring out how, in less than perfect, will gain you more in the long run! Sure might seem annoying now, but learning to handle less than perfect winds - PRICELESS!!

[Captainbob]

More dual line tuts are on my radar, just a matter of kites, time, weather and staff - sorry for the delay.

I'm sure that there are many dualie flyers that will be excited to see these when they are finished.

[Captainbob]

Cap'n, you may actually be better suited to learning dualies where you live. Dualies trick and track much better in wind under 12mph. SUL's are good for very light winds and the slack needed to trick is much easier to obtain in light and inconsistent wind. While laboratory grade beach winds are optimum for everyone, I think you will be plenty busy learning both types of kites. JB has.

That is kind of what I am finding out. I keep waiting for the winds to improve as time goes on, but I am starting to think that " It is what it is".

CB - you're understanding it!! You just have to go out and learn to fly in the conditions at hand!! Wait for perfect winds and you'll be doing just that - waiting!! Figuring out how, in less than perfect, will gain you more in the long run! Sure might seem annoying now, but learning to handle less than perfect winds - PRICELESS!!

Yes, beginning to realize that. The "perfect" winds don't occur often enough to rely on them, so you have to play the hand you are dealt, which is part of the learning experience. Today the wind was erratic, but I made the best ot if, flew for about 3 hours, and did my first snap stalls on my Niknak...

[Captainbob]

Just got my latest kite, an Inferno Zephyr. Can't wait to fly it. The wind quit right after it was delivered.

[West Australian]

Nice Kite! don't worry the wind will come back.... and you will be ready.

[RobB]

You really can fly the Z in the lowest winds. If you leave the lower spreader & spine weight in the bag, adjust the bridle all the way towards the nose, and fly on 50' lines, that is. Also, 50# lines with the Z isn't suggested if the wind is the slightest bit gusty. I broke my 50' 50# lines so many times, they were 30' long when I got rid if them.

Now you just need a vented duallie !

[Captainbob]

Ordered a set of 90# 50 ft lines.

[Wayne Dowler]

I always flew the "Z"s predecessor, the Ozone, on 50' x 50# lines! Found that if it was light enough winds to use that kite, well it was light enough for those lines! Still use it now and then ( don't tell the REV police - SHHH!)! Light, big, will fly when a lot of others are sitting watching!

[Captainbob]

I always flew the "Z"s predecessor, the Ozone, on 50' x 50# lines! Found that if it was light enough winds to use that kite, well it was light enough for those lines! Still use it now and then ( don't tell the REV police - SHHH!)! Light, big, will fly when a lot of others are sitting watching!

Well I have to admit that since I got my Niknak, and started learning how to fly a dualie, and then adding the Widow NG, I haven't flown my 2 Revs at all. Only few weeks ago, I gave away a Dualie that I won, thinking that I should stick to Revs and wouldn't fly the dualie at all, and after starting to fly dualies, I'm hooked on them.

I just came from the field, and in between T-storms and Tornado warnings, the weather this morning wasn't bad. Wind about 4-6 mph at ground level, and probably around 12-15 and gusty at altitude. I flew the Zephyr for about 1 1/2 hours, and was easily able to launch it and fly around. Got alot of buzzing when the wind would pick up, but no wingtip shaking, and it flew great. I didn't want to use the leech line cause I have read posts on problems with the trailing edge caused by the leech line, and I don't mind the buzzing sound at all. It is really docile in stalls and side slides, very easy to control. Looks great in the air. When the wind would pick up a bit at altitude, I would fly around the edges of the wind window. I finally quit when the wind picked up a bit more and got really gusty, didn't want to break anything on the first day in the air.

[RobB]

I always flew the "Z"s predecessor, the Ozone, on 50' x 50# lines! Found that if it was light enough winds to use that kite, well it was light enough for those lines! Still use it now and then ( don't tell the REV police - SHHH!)! Light, big, will fly when a lot of others are sitting watching!

It is true that the Oz was made before the Z, but the Oz is more similar to CB's NikNak than the Zephyr. The Zephyr is a bigger kite, and pulls strong in a gust. I fly my Oz on 50# lines in the lightest winds (less than 2mph) but even switch the Oz onto 90# lines if the wind is any higher. The Zephyr used to come with a hard case, and 2 linesets, a 50# set and a 90# set. I broke the 50# lines with the Z so many times that I ended up just throwing them away. Hopefully some bird is enjoying his spectra-line bird nest somewhere !

Got alot of buzzing when the wind would pick up, but no wingtip shaking, and it flew great. I didn't want to use the leech line cause I have read posts on problems with the trailing edge caused by the leech line, and I don't mind the buzzing sound at all.

As far as the leech line & trailing edge issues... I think Prism may have sorted that out after 7 years of production. I preordered my Z when they were new, and mine is from the first production run. The trailing edge did wear out, leech line broke thru, all that good stuff. I don't care, the kite still flies fine, and that's the only issue I ever had with the kite. Oh, one more thing... I flew this kite A LOT, so it could just be I wore it out !

Dacron is a little frayed... but the kite still flies great...