Dave362 Posted July 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 When I had my success i was flying the Ocius UL. This is not a very modern/radical design and flatspins like an old school Prism. I'll be at the beach in a couple of weeks and plan to do some testing in smooth winds with a variety of kites. I'm curious to discover the degree to which different kites will give up this trick. I'll report back. I may do a test or study video on some of these moves. so far my theory is a spin happy kite like your Mowhawk 2 or the Ocius make the trick easier. Another factor may be kites that are less prone to pitch. Example: I have had absolutely no success with this trick on my GPS, yet it does slots like a dream. Brian, next time out would you begin with your Mowhawk2, get the trick grooving and then switch to the original? I'm curious as to the degree of effect changing kites will have when the move is flowing during a single session. Since this trick is new to all of us, I'm thinking we'll need to do some R and D to come up with a truly useful methodology that will prove helpful. At that point, we might think of starting a new thread that goes directly to our findings, which will be easily accessable to those researching this trick. if anyone is wiling to try the move on a few different kites, your input would be valuable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyclad01 Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 I was still grooving from doing it last night. It seems like my 1st gen just doesn't like to flat spin at all when I was flying it today. Next time I will try to do a Taz Machine with my Silver Fox 2.5 if the winds are strong enough for it (as its a very heavy kite) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobB Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 It's killing me, I've been wanting to get out and try this trick since this post popped up, but I keep missing opportunities to fly. Stupid work. All the good wind is during the week, and the wind's been cr@p on the weekends ! Looking forward to seeing some video... that was the breakthrough for me on the 540 after months of trying the trick, I saw someone's video that just seemed to finally make sense to me. I got the trick the next time out. Funny thing is, once I got the 540, I was able to teach a friend the trick in less than 1/2 hour. It is invaluable to have someone show you a trick in person. Another example... the only trick that I learned in person from someone else was the flic-flac. I watched him doing flic-flacs for 5 minutes, and I was able to do them right away. I know, that's a frustrating fact for those of us trying to learn from videos and online information, but if you've got the chance to get out & fly with others, it's so worth it ! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave362 Posted July 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 Stupid work for sure! So Rob, would you try this on your Solus at some point? Very curious as to how a tricky kite like that responds to the second input. Its weird how clear those tutorials seem, like its all there. Yet often I find i need a little more info, usually regarding timing. I've got a friend from Tacoma WA who is just a natural at all this stuff. He just seems to intuitively grasp what needs to be done. I too flailed away at the 540 for months. Then I went to Long Beach with this guy and stood right next to him flying Prism Illusions. I learned the 540 by watching him in about an hour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyclad01 Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 Forgive me for being clueless, but I need someone to describe to me the differences between a Taz Machine and a 540. From the videos ive seen, the only difference is that with a Taz Machine, you end up flying off in the opposite direction that you started in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobB Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 Yes, the Solus will be one of the kites I try this on. I really only fly the Solus and Widow Maker these days (as far as standards) and I can do all the tricks that I 'know' how to do on either. The Solus is the sloppier trick machine, though. The Widow Maker is more forgiving to sloppy input, but you have to give it more input to get certain tricks to work, like the backspin, yoyo, and that flic-flac to 540 move. That being said, the Solus is the only standard duallie that I've flown, it's always first out of the bag when the wind's right. The Solus is a tricky kite, but it's not quite radical like the Gemini or the Seven. Sunday was going to be the day for getting out and trying some tricks, but NOAA just changed the wind prediction from 6-9mph onshore to 6-9 offshore, so it might not even be worth going out in the sun for another week. Can't wait for Fall ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobB Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 Forgive me for being clueless, but I need someone to describe to me the differences between a Taz Machine and a 540. From the videos ive seen, the only difference is that with a Taz Machine, you end up flying off in the opposite direction that you started in. The entry for a 540 is vertical flying down, flare, pop a spin. The Taz & Slot are horizontal flying to the side, flare & pop a spin. They seem very similar to me, but so different. To me, it's a frustrating mental block when the lines are in my hand ! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyclad01 Posted July 4, 2015 Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 So its just a difference of the angle of attack then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave362 Posted July 4, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 4, 2015 EDIT: sorry, I didn't see the 4th page and Robs decription, so some of this is redundant They are both flat spins and therefore closely related. The 540 is entered from a flair, or nose away, so the kite is already flat when the rotation starts. Also, the 540 is done with only one input or pull, like a backspin. Often, but not always, the 540 is preceeded by a vertical dive. Lately guys are doing them as part of a flic flac. (check out Rob's snow vid) The Taz is entered from a half axel, so the nose is pointed to either edge, as in a horizontal pass. So the kite has to go from wings being vertical to flat in the first part of the rotation. All those things can varied at which point there is considerable overlap between the two tricks. The most important issue for the flyer is the Taz has a second input given while the nose is away to begin the flat spin. If there was no second input, the kite would just finish the half axel and fly away in the opposite direcction, or whatever. Can you do a single pull double axel that looks like a Taz? sure. Can you add inputs during any flat spin to keep it going, thereby creating a Taz like move? absolutely. Flat spins are flat spins and if you watch advanced trick videos, like you might find in VF, you'll see lots of flat spins thrown in as transitional moves, just llike when someone throws a slot or Taz between two reps of a cascade. Just for clarification, the slot begins as a half axel, but the flat spin is initiated by the same hand and rotates in the opposite direction of the half axel Hope that helps! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave362 Posted July 7, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2015 I was flying my QP standard this morning, and everything was grooving but the Taz was inconsistent. Since I'm comfortable withe the slot, I'm going to practice an extended slot, using an additional input while the nose is away, just like Taz to keep the rotation going. Getting better at that input should make my Taz more consistent. I was thinking someone who is comfortable with the Axel could do the same thing and have the opportunity to practice the back half of the slot before trying the whole move. Baby steps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave362 Posted July 8, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2015 I had real good luck today using an Axel as an entry to the extended flatspin. Essentially just a double axel done using a second pull instead of a really hard single pull. No luck using the slot. It was too confusing because the flatspin hand ends up being with the same hand used to reverse the half axel. Just the opposite for the taz and for me not worth the trouble. I'd rather just practice the Taz on its own. The Taz is getting better for me. Brian's suggestion of taking a couple of steps toward the kite right after hitting the second input is what works best for me. As long as I can get slack into it the move works. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barresi Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 2. watch for the proper orientation, nose above the tail, spine pointing right at you. This bit of gold here did it for me, especially the nose above tail (during half axel) part, really brought it home... Did several Taz Machines headed left today (my first ever) and one headed right. Nice summary, thanks!! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makatakam Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 2. watch for the proper orientation, nose above the tail, spine pointing right at you. This bit of gold here did it for me, especially the nose above tail (during half axel) part, really brought it home... Did several Taz Machines headed left today (my first ever) and one headed right. Nice summary, thanks!! JB, still learning new tricks? I thought you could do them all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barresi Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 ALWAYS learning new tricks, or at least combos. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 The day you stop learning - hang it up!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave362 Posted July 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 John, very cool! I still don't have this one consistent, but its getting better.. BTW, I was at Ocean Shores all last week and Aaron, NWkiteluv,was there too. We had a bunch of conversations regarding how much you've helped us both. You're a beast! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barresi Posted July 18, 2015 Report Share Posted July 18, 2015 I'll have been at this for 25 years as of this August, I'm still learning all the time, either trick or combos. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave362 Posted July 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 I gotta get down to Portland,,,,,, Must learn the French turn! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makatakam Posted July 19, 2015 Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 I usually just put two quarters in the Taz Machine, pull the right handle, and wait for the three tornadoes to line up. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave362 Posted July 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2015 I just thought of something "useful." Another difference between the Taz an the 540 is they rotate in different directions if done with the same hand, since the 540 is just a pull to flat spin and the Taz begins with a half axel. This kind of reminds me of which way the water rotates going down the drain, depending on whre you are in the world. .......... Sorry.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave362 Posted July 26, 2015 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2015 I got some real nice Taz machines today with my GPS and the Nirvana. Still a bit inconsistent, but they're getting better. For me, looking for the spine above the tail and then moving toward the kite after the second input are the key elements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobB Posted July 27, 2015 Report Share Posted July 27, 2015 Another weekend without flying, so no news to report in my quest for the Taz or Slot. I'm all primed up on text advice, and have watched the videos a few more times. Next time out, I swear, I'm gonna nail it ! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asburyparkjohn Posted August 5, 2015 Report Share Posted August 5, 2015 IMO its how they build kites today being probably more turtle friendly. How difficult is it to do a Lazy Susan on a Lam hoac kite? Even on a Benson IS in low winds Flat-top slots and taz's are not that difficult. What we see spinning around is normally at a 45* to ground and sky these modern kites. For this reason a Taz is always an issue. Low wind, near the corners, a lot of slack and the nose up and let it spin with a 45* pitched elevation ... same with the 540 ... but on the beach sometimes in 1-2 mph about 6 Feet off the sand ... a table top ... yeah ... baby ... but rare for me anyway. APJ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave362 Posted August 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 6, 2015 Hey John, nice to see you on here. Agreed. The current deep turtle kites change the learning curve for this trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianS Posted January 10, 2016 Report Share Posted January 10, 2016 Sorry to jump into a thread that's been dormant for several months, but I just wanted to give a shout out to all of the folks who took the time to explain the Taz subtleties. This thread has been a huge help to me. In the past, I've managed to do a few Taz Machines on other peoples' kites, but not with my own kite. I finally had a breakthrough today and managed to coax a few of them out of my own kite. At first, I was only getting them flying right to left, but then managed to get two in a row flying left to right. This is still very much a work in progress for me and it'll take a lot of practice to become consistent...but it sure felt great to get a little taste of success. Many thanks to all of the folks who take the time to offer their advice and help here on the forum. Your interest and enthusiasm is a big reason that this place is such a great resource! 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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