Skydog freebird...thoughts?

[Deadheadkeg]

I am a newbie who recently bought a HQ symphony beach 2.2 foil and seems to have gotten kiting bug (been going out every day wind cooperates since I got it!) Thinking a beginner stunt kite would be next but need to keep it as low priced as possible for a good kite since I am a poor school teacher (teachers always feel poorest at the end of summer!). That said i dont want a piece of junk either. Been searching around and eyeing the skydog freebird but haven't really found many reviews online ...saw some videos of it flying and in right hands seems capable enough. On paper it looks like good newbie kite and seems to have decent bang for buck with a decent lineset etc. wondering if anyone has any experiences with this kite they could share.

Thanks

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[RobB]

I would recommend getting a full-sized kite. If you like the Skydogs, something like the DreamOn or Jammin'. A full-sized kite should have a wingspan close to 8'. As long as it's over 7'... The kite will move a little slower and feel more controllable & predictable. Anything that I've flown that's under 7' seems fast & twitchy.

As far as budget, you'll be happier in the long run if you save for a little longer, keep flying the foil & then buy something that you won't outgrow quickly.

[Palmahnic]

Have to agree with Rob. I'm usually not one to give advice because I consider myself as a beginner in many ways, and prefer to shelter in the shadow of the greats here. This once I can share of my own experience and say that a big kite would give you more time to react and learn, and more confidence. If you like Skydog's kites I know that many have been tremendously happy with Dodd Gross's Jammin, for off shore winds, and Dream On for more inland. I was very happy to learn on the Widow NG myself, a great factory line Jon T. kite that gives a feeling of a real kite for a moderate price (middle east historians don't make a lot of money either, I was able to get mine for $145). I did my crashing on the Prism Quantum but pretty soon, when I had more control and was eager to go for the tricks, my choice allowed me a kite that has had many fliers and so much experience shared that can be found easily online, and many videos to copy from, which was crucial for me, being the only way for me to advance.

Flare up your desire with the foil, save up and make the switch. Again, basically what Rob said. [emoji1]

Thank you kindly, Iftah.

[Dave362]

i agree with all that's been said here. One thing to add, when looking at smaller standard kites, you can sometimes be limiting your wind range. Generally speaking,, full size standard kites have wider wind ranges due to a larger sail area. Of course, pupose built SULs can fly in lower winds. These, however, tend to be a bit more fragile as well as more expensive. Plus, they can't take the stronger winds a standard can.

[makatakam]

Yes to everything they said. Plus one thing. Avoid the super cheap kites and anything under 7 feet, tip to tip. You won't be able to properly stall a cheap kite to land it because they are not designed for anything more than going fast and crashing. Save up a bit more than you had intended to spend and get something you can "grow into", as opposed to something you'll "grow out of" in a hurry. It'll cost you 30% more in the long run when you have to replace it once your skill level is beyond what you purchased.

[Deadheadkeg]

You know when I first typed up my post I had typed at the end to please not give me the usual "buy an expensive kite" answer...but then I thought it might sound too snarky...well now I guess you get the full on snarky rant.

You all have opinions and that's awesome. Not a single one of you actually answered my question or request for information. Not one of you has mentonned any experience with the kite....but you sure are unified in your "buy an expensive kite". You regurgitate the same old cheap kite bashing and say things like "the won't properly stall"...but when I search videos on YouTube (just search sundog freebird) the first several I see are the kite doing some pretty impressive tricks (to this admitted newbie....but I venture to say it is capable of stalling). One of you reference getting the kite that you purchased after your quantum...well this is my first kite...not my second. You guys are suggesting kites that are at least 3 times as expensive as the freebird...not a minor difference in price. It is sad how predictable the response was....I get that you guys are super passionate about kiting. And I imagine you all think your second/ third / umpteenth kite is the best kite ever and if you had only bought that first you would've saved all the money....but that's not always how hobbies work or how people pick up new interests. I wonder how many of you would've loved your second (or whatever) kite if it was the one you crashed and bashed and worried about breaking while you learned on it. I imagine your experiences with your later kites were probably greatly improved by those newbie kites you seem to so disdain now. Plus honestly it comes across as snobbish and unwelcoming to new people getting interested in it. I ordered the freebird. Guess that shows how much I value your opinions...but I had $50 to drop on a kite... not $150. I wanted someone with kiting experiences opinions on this kite pluses / minuses...not advice to spend significantly more than the amount i have now to spend. For $50 it seems like it offers more than most...a dyneema lineset if nothing else. it seems like it might offer the possibiltiy of more growth if i like it (at least based on the youtube videos it's capable of tricks that will take me a long time, if ever, to learn). That's why I bought it. Maybe it's a mistake. Maybe its too small at 74" and will be too fast as someone suggested (although the skydog website claims it has a slower forward flight than most others this size). So maybe it's all mistake. Maybe I am just a jerk here asking all your opinions, ignoring them, then ranting at you. Or maybe you aren't the most welcoming group to newbies and outsiders. I get that you all are super kite passionate....and honeslty maybe at some pint I will be too...i have a blast flying my parafoil....but honeslty I pray if I do I never get so snobbish that no matter what kite question is asked I knee-jerk spew a reaction of "get an expensive kite".

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[SHBKF]

I like your last post because it reminds me of exactly where I was three years ago. I had purchased & flown a medium quality sport kite back in the eighties but the high cost was a major turn off. I flew it for a few years infrequently & eventually moved on to other hobbies. But just a few years ago I bought an inexpensive Prism single line kite on clearance & it got me interested again. Next I bought a Prism Snapshot 1.2. Flew it a bit & decided I needed a framed kite but did not seek advice of a forum or really investigate kites available. Bought a new old stock one at Hobbytown & destroyed it on my second session. I progressed from there to other kites. Kites I have flown similar to your choice are a Prism Nexus, 60" & a Premier Vision, same size. I started reading some forums & got my nerve up to start a topic even. I did some lengthy posts of interest to me & got my tail feathers burned a bit. That was on a less friendly forum. This forum seemed like it was professional kite fliers & it intimidated me. It was some time before I joined this forum. The fifty to sixty dollar kites are a good value & can do amazing things in skilled hands. My Nexus kite turned into a five stack which I still fly today. I gave my Vision kite to someone hoping they would fly it. They have not so far. The people responding to your topic are people I hold in high regard. They have helped me immensely. So what does SHBKF mean? Solo hill billie kite flailer, that's me. Still learning with the help of the Masters.

Please stay with us, SHBKF

[SparkieRob]

You know when I first typed up my post I had typed at the end to please not give me the usual "buy an expensive kite" answer...but then I thought it might sound too snarky...well now I guess you get the full on snarky rant.

You all have opinions and that's awesome. Not a single one of you actually answered my question or request for information. Not one of you has mentonned any experience with the kite....but you sure are unified in your "buy an expensive kite". You regurgitate the same old cheap kite bashing and say things like "the won't properly stall"...but when I search videos on YouTube (just search sundog freebird) the first several I see are the kite doing some pretty impressive tricks (to this admitted newbie....but I venture to say it is capable of stalling). One of you reference getting the kite that you purchased after your quantum...well this is my first kite...not my second. You guys are suggesting kites that are at least 3 times as expensive as the freebird...not a minor difference in price. It is sad how predictable the response was....I get that you guys are super passionate about kiting. And I imagine you all think your second/ third / umpteenth kite is the best kite ever and if you had only bought that first you would've saved all the money....but that's not always how hobbies work or how people pick up new interests. I wonder how many of you would've loved your second (or whatever) kite if it was the one you crashed and bashed and worried about breaking while you learned on it. I imagine your experiences with your later kites were probably greatly improved by those newbie kites you seem to so disdain now. Plus honestly it comes across as snobbish and unwelcoming to new people getting interested in it. I ordered the freebird. Guess that shows how much I value your opinions...but I had $50 to drop on a kite... not $150. I wanted someone with kiting experiences opinions on this kite pluses / minuses...not advice to spend significantly more than the amount i have now to spend. For $50 it seems like it offers more than most...a dyneema lineset if nothing else. it seems like it might offer the possibiltiy of more growth if i like it (at least based on the youtube videos it's capable of tricks that will take me a long time, if ever, to learn). That's why I bought it. Maybe it's a mistake. Maybe its too small at 74" and will be too fast as someone suggested (although the skydog website claims it has a slower forward flight than most others this size). So maybe it's all mistake. Maybe I am just a jerk here asking all your opinions, ignoring them, then ranting at you. Or maybe you aren't the most welcoming group to newbies and outsiders. I get that you all are super kite passionate....and honeslty maybe at some pint I will be too...i have a blast flying my parafoil....but honeslty I pray if I do I never get so snobbish that no matter what kite question is asked I knee-jerk spew a reaction of "get an expensive kite".

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Anything designed by Dodd Gross will be a great bird. A 6 foot wing will require a little more wind and a little less input but you are on your way.

Never flown a Freebird but I do have a Skydog Jammin' and can definitely vouch for build quality and hardware. Kite is still capable of more than I.

Keeping costs as low as possible is a hard thing to quantify without a number. Here in Oz the Freebird is 1/2 the cost of the Jammin' so I can only assume that this is true everywhere. The opinions you were given were sound and based on a great deal of experience. We have all been hungry for that first step and what kite to get. You won't find any kite pushers here, just enablers. You won't find a more welcoming and supportive forum anywhere on the web.

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[RobB]

Sorry to have offended you in some way... the title of your post is Skydog Freebird... Thoughts? I answered with my thoughts. Just trying to save you from buying a kite that you'll quickly outgrow.

Good luck with your new kite.

[Deadheadkeg]

Sorry to have offended you in some way... the title of your post is Skydog Freebird... Thoughts? I answered with my thoughts. Just trying to save you from buying a kite that you'll quickly outgrow.

Good luck with your new kite.

You didn't offend...nor did I think you were trying to...it guess I was just hoping for some more meaningful feedback. You did reference the size as a concern and that was the most specific comment given about the kite, which I appreciatte. My understanding is that this means i will have to fly in higher winds (which suits me as my scratchbuilt foam rc planes fly in calmer winds), and that the kite might be twitchier and more responsive...that I guess I will just have to deal with...but there seems to be a lot of respect for dodd gross and his designs...and if he designed it and has it listed for beginner to advanced who am I to argue? Plus statement of it being "a kite you'll outgrow soon" ....I guess I have no idea what that means and maybe need more explanation (after all I am a newbie). I see videos of this kite tricking more than I beleive I would ever want to do, much less be capable to do....so on the surface it seems capable...what makes it a kite I will outgrow soon? I guess maybe that's my gripe with the responses. Not that you guys aren't knowledgeable but that you are very knowledgeable and take so much knowledge for granted you don't articulate it well to us newbies. Seriously...what about this kite am I going to outgrow? I am not trying to be sarcastic or challenging so I really don't want any of you to take it that way. I really want to know. If I don't know what traits make this undesirable how would I ever know what makes a desirable kite? If I don't know that makes a desirable kite than how I am ever going to decide on what kite to buy other than just blindly following someone's recomendation? And that doesn't seem like a very educated approach to buying a kite. Sorry I ranted. Woke up sick and have been feeling yuck all day..so overall not in best mood today...but at least I have a kite on the way...so I've got that going for me. [emoji3] ....even if I do outgrow it in 6 months...but at $50 I would still think it probably is a good investment in that if i do eventually get a much nicer kite at least i would've gotten my newbie/brain fart crashes out of the way...knowing i am only risking $50 in a newbie crash versus $150+ allows me to relax more at this point of my kite flying development

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[RobB]

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against Dodd and his designs. I actually have a bagful of his kites & have flown with him. I'm not sure which videos you've seen of the kite, but if he was the person flying it, I will say this... He could fly a garbage can lid & make it look capable. That's the trouble with a number of the promo videos out there, the manufacturer gets a world-class pilot to fly in the video, leading consumers to believe that it will fly like that for them, too.

Outgrowing a kite... becoming disenchanted, bored, frustrated... whatever the reason, the kite ends up not being flown. You point out that you have a foil, so you're really buying your second dual line kite all ready. I bought an entry level kite as my first dual line. It wasn't even as good or expensive as the Freebird. I think it was about $40 at the time. Within two weeks of buying that first dually, I was back in the kite store, buying something bigger & better.

Here's one thing that you made mention of... you would rather crash an inexpensive kite than a $150 kite... the truth is that the $150 kite has a much better chance of sustaining no damage, while the inexpensive kite is more likely to be damaged & unflyable after a crash. It is rare that a crash would 'total' a kite, most damage is easily repaired.

So, have fun with the Freebird. See where it takes you. It doesn't matter what you fly to us. The thing is that you fly. All the replies were meant to be helpful, we just wanted to help you skip ahead a few steps in your journey.

[Palmahnic]

@Deadheadkeg, Enjoy your kite.

@Everyone: In other thoughts: No,I don't believe I answered Deadheadkeg's original question. I didn't have the specific information he requested. I don't believe any of us did, as Deadheadkeg very distinctly pointed out. However, I do want to mention this: we all wanted to help out and not leave this person hanging. Imagine this: a newbie asks a question that no one has any info on, and no one replies. That newbie is repelled by the lack of response, and therefore goes on to be repelled of the community, and possibly the hobby entirely. What I'm referring to here is perspectives. One could say that the forum members' non answer replies were putting off just for the lack of direct response to the specific question. Or, in another perspective, one could see the desire of the forum members to welcome a new person, and give out as much helpful info, and a community embrace, as possible, to a person, any person, who needs support.

I know that this was the case with a question I had a while back, and while not really getting a direct reply, I got useful info from the forum members, a much more needed info than I had originally asked for, that turned out to be far more useful in the long run.

I guess the reason I'm writing this is because I feel a need to tell all the people who answered the OP's first post to not be discouraged, and potentially deny the next person to ask a newbie question the wealth of knowledge offered here. It is, after all, what kept me coming back, the community embrace.

Thanks everyone.

Thank you kindly, Iftah.

[Skyclad01]

A kite with a smaller wingspan will be twitchier (which means it will turn very quickly, with a high probability of over steer). As for it needing higher winds - that depends on the weight of the kite, but as a general rule, smaller wingspan kites (under 70") usually do need a little more wind than say an 80" - 100" wingspan kites, and will also fly through the sky a bit faster as well - will keep you on your toes. Also shorter wingspan kites are a little harder to trick.

As far as what people mean by "Outgrow", it means that your skills will only go so far with the kite. As I stated previously: shorter wingspan kites are a little harder to trick, as opposed to an 80" + wingspan kite. Though, with the Freebird being a 74" wingspan kite, I would be willing to say that thats a decent enough wingspan for a beginner kite. My first kite was a New Tech Detonator kite which costed me $35 (kite, lines, straps, bag) and only has a 54.5" wingspan.

With my Detonator kite, I was able to do stalls, fades and half axles once I got really used to flying a dual line kite. It did take A LOT of abuse from me! Theres no way I am able to count the number of nose plants I did with that one, as well as other crashes while on the learning curve. The Freebird your looking at (having a bigger wingspan) should be able to do all that a lot more easily than my Detonator kite could.

With a 74" wingspan RTF at $50, my personal opinion is that it would indeed be a very good starter kite. My only suggestion on it would be to get a longer line set as I see it comes with a 65' line set. 85' to 90' is usually average. The difference in length's is that a shorter line set means that it will respond a lot quicker to your inputs, so you will need to stay on your toes with what you're doing.

I also believe that once you reach the limits of what you can do with that kite (aka 'Outgrow it') as far as learning to do tricks with it, by that time, you will know if you want to continue with stunt kiting and spend a little more to move on to a larger kite that will allow you to do a lot more with it.

Hopefully that helps to clear up any confusion that you've had with this thread so far. I do understand your frustrations with the replies you've received so far. While they all have been correct, the have kinda forgotten to go a little more in depth into the reasons why spending more would be better - why a bigger kite would be better. It's easy for any of the more seasoned fliers forget all those little details sometimes. Palmahnic's post above has hopefully reminded all of this, and I couldn't have said it better.

[Tim P.]

I didn't read anything in any of the responses that seemed snobbish to me. You asked experienced people about a potential kite purchase. They responded with their experienced opinions. You chose to ignore their experienced opinions and then imply that everyone that tried to help you out with their responses were snobs.

Most of us that have flown for any length of time have run across people that wanted to get into kites, bought a cheap, poorly designed kite (not saying the Freebird is), had such a hard time flying it because of it's poor construction that they became very quickly turned off by it thinking that kite flying sucks. And usually after a couple of crashes that cheap kite was nothing more than a few broken parts. These experienced people whose opinions you asked for were trying to spare you this bad experience, you know, to actually help you learn from their experiences. Kind of like a teacher.

Hope you enjoy your kite.

[Skyclad01]

I didn't read anything in any of the responses that seemed snobbish to me. You asked experienced people about a potential kite purchase. They responded with their experienced opinions. You chose to ignore their experienced opinions and then imply that everyone that tried to help you out with their responses were snobs.

Most of us that have flown for any length of time have run across people that wanted to get into kites, bought a cheap, poorly designed kite (not saying the Freebird is), had such a hard time flying it because of it's poor construction that they became very quickly turned off by it thinking that kite flying sucks. And usually after a couple of crashes that cheap kite was nothing more than a few broken parts. These experienced people whose opinions you asked for were trying to spare you this bad experience, you know, to actually help you learn from their experiences. Kind of like a teacher.

Hope you enjoy your kite.

I can't speak for him, nor am I trying to. But I don't think he ignored any of their responses. While all the replies he got were good in explaining why he should spend more and get a bigger kite, they did not go into detail why he shouldn't get a smaller kite and the problems/limitations with them.

Thats why I went into so much detail with my post in explaining all that.

[Deadheadkeg]

I didn't read anything in any of the responses that seemed snobbish to me. You asked experienced people about a potential kite purchase. They responded with their experienced opinions. You chose to ignore their experienced opinions and then imply that everyone that tried to help you out with their responses were snobs.

Most of us that have flown for any length of time have run across people that wanted to get into kites, bought a cheap, poorly designed kite (not saying the Freebird is), had such a hard time flying it because of it's poor construction that they became very quickly turned off by it thinking that kite flying sucks. And usually after a couple of crashes that cheap kite was nothing more than a few broken parts. These experienced people whose opinions you asked for were trying to spare you this bad experience, you know, to actually help you learn from their experiences. Kind of like a teacher.

Hope you enjoy your kite.

As previously stated I might have over reacted in my response and I apologize for that. That doesn't mean I don't stand by my comments. The responses were no different than I've read in a bunch of other threads (because i do whatveer eceryone wishes and search and read the forums prior to asking) and provided no new information and no specific information that was requested. I recognize that none of you responded in a manner intended to annoy. But honeslty I take offense to your last line as to what teachers do. Are you one? I am. I admit I only transitioned to teaching 3 years ago after fighting, clawing, and backstabbing my way to a fairly succesful 20+ years in corporate america (it's how the game has to be played...that's why i left). But honestly have you studied how the best learning occurs? It's fairly universally accepted that things student can discover and find on their own are things that are learned better and retained longer. In addtiin context and reasons provide higher level of understanding. As a teacher (high school math if curious) if I all do is simply tell kids to memorize steps and equations to solve specific problems they aren't really getting a good basis in mathematics, and they will forget those formulas and steps approximately 27.6 seconds after the chapter test. As an example, as a practitioner of math many years after the last college class was taken I was doing a math problem with exponents. I did not remember the memorized exponent rules per se [ex (x^2)^3 = x^(2×3)] but I remebered what I learned over 25 years previous, which is the basics of how and what exponents are and was able to quickly derive how to solve it by expanding the exponents (ex x^2 = xx so (xx)^3=xxxxxx or x^6. So which would've been a better way for me to have learned it? Memorize and regurgitate formulas I was told by a knowledgeable person? (good luck with that with my memory!) Or have a deeper understanding of the whys and how's of exponents and be able to figure out the answer on my own? That said I get that as a teacher you don't want to see a kid fail and get frustrated. But let's not forget that failure is part of the learning experience. I get that in a good hearted way you are trying to prevent me from suffering the failures you did. But the failures are critical part of a learning process...especially with someone who's motivated and interested in the subject. A failure becomes a challenge that drives people to acquire knowledge and skills. Again a mini rant...but your teacher comment struck a nerve as that's the exact thing I was complaining about. The responses weren't teaching me anything.

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[Deadheadkeg]

@palmahnic. Thank you for your well thought out response. I think you hit the nail right on the head

@skyclad1 thank you for you explanation. That was more of what I was looking for with more specific details and explanations.

To all of you. I think you are all quite knowledgeable and there's a lot I can learn from all of you. I appreciatte that this community is here. I've read a ton of posts and have learned a lot already. I would however encourage everyone to think more about teaching and learning pedagogies and to give reasons to support statements. For example instead of just telling me to get a bigger kite...tell me why. Instead of jsut saying get a brand x model y kite...tell me why it's better than what I was looking at. Instead of disparaging cheap kites...tell me what a cheap kite is and why it doesn't work well. Honestly I still can't tell if people think the freebird is a cheap kite or not. It's not an $18 China no name purchased off ebay...that I think we could all agree is a cheap kite...but a lower priced kite designed by a respected designer and sold by a respected company...is that a "cheap kite"? Still unclear. And lastly I really do appreciatte that all your hearts are in the right place and that you are all passionate about kite flying.

Peace

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[Skyclad01]

Instead of disparaging cheap kites...tell me what a cheap kite is and why it doesn't work well. Honestly I still can't tell if people think the freebird is a cheap kite or not. It's not an $18 China no name purchased off ebay...that I think we could all agree is a cheap kite...but a lower priced kite designed by a respected designer and sold by a respected company...is that a "cheap kite"? Still unclear. And lastly I really do appreciatte that all your hearts are in the right place and that you are all passionate about kite flying.

Peace

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Basically any China no name kite is a cheap kite. Thats a given (unless theres a few exceptions that im unaware of).

No, I don't believe the Freebird is a cheap kite. What makes for a cheap kite is poor build quality and poor materials. Or if company X has inconsistent builds.

[Tmadz]

Deadheadkeg. I understand your position. When I first got into kiting I was hesitant to drop a lot of money and didn't really know anything. I read the forums and researched the previous threads. I started on vacation by buying a Skydog learn to fly kite. It got me into the air, but it was obvious after a few hours it wasn't going to be able to do much. I thoroughly enjoyed it and still have it in my spare bag to pull out in case I come across someone who might be interested in taking the lines. That said I did more research and decided what I was looking for. I wanted to get into the tricking side and less ballet or tracking. I think Skydog kites are underrated. I don't have any experience with the Freebird, but fly it and enjoy it. You may or may not find yourself looking for a more capable kite later on. It depends on what you're looking for. I've seen plenty of people who decide they want to fly dual line kites only. Some migrate into quad line. Most end up with a SLK (single line kites) or two to fly just for fun. There will be a learning curve on the lines. I don't think it was relayed properly, but there is a fair chance that you're going to break a few parts. Some of the higher level kites have parts that are easier to buy and replace than the entry level kites. People were expressing their experience in wanting to get deeper into kites and they transitioned to more expensive kites quickly. But at the same time, you as a newbie, got a lot of responses sent your way and it can seem very intimidating. The odds are you're going to be flying and learning by yourself. It's hard. I'm in the midwest and have hardly any kite fliers around (at least on the forums) to fly with. I'm lucky enough to be able to fly with active quad line fliers. In a roundabout way they were just trying to save you some frustration from their experiences. There is nothing wrong with the Freebird, but keep in mind, there may be some trade offs if you have damage or if you find yourself wanting to get deeper into a particular style of kiting. Right now, fly what you have and enjoy it. About more expensive kites, worry about that bridge when you come to it. Everyone's path is different.

As far as price, there is a distinct difference between price levels on kites. The higher you go the more is put into kites: design, quality of materials, repairability. Depends on the kite and what you're looking for. I think that kiting is one of the cheapest hobbies you can do after the cost of entry. The wind and sun is free. Once you progress to a certain point you don't need to repair your kites as often other than maintenance and good lines last a long long time. Most kiters are able to spend that extra money on getting more kites.

[Deadheadkeg]

Thanks tmadz and skyclad01 for your comments. Maybe i should've explained what I was looking at when I thought this was a good buy and then people might have had more specific comments about those thoughts. Basically based on my research and understanding (and admittedly I am learning and might not be corrct) I don't necessarily view this as a "cheap kite" with all the associated bad things that come with them. Thats why the comments re steering me away from cheap kites didnt seem to satisfy me i guess. I get the size thing much better now and see how that is a legit comment (thanks skyclad01 for your explanation). Another things I looked at was frame and kite materials. It has a 6mm carbon fiber frame. My understanding is that this is a pretty decent thing both for replacement / repair as well as for performance and durability, especially at this pricepoint. I have already found an online kite store selling replacement parts if needed (although being just 6mm tubing I assume I can just buy some tube stock and cut my own to length if/ when the inevitable lawn dart takes it out...have to look into the whole repair side more...first things first I guess!). Several people have recomended several other higher end skydog kites, but the only difference in material between the kites (based on their website descriptions) seems to be the difference of freebird having 2mm sold carbon standoffs and the higher end having 3mm. Other thing I looked at was lineset. Lots of cheaper kites don't come with dyneema lineset..this does...maybe i make that more a factor than i should...not sure.. but when i see the cost of purchasing other dyneema linesets its not an insignificant portion of the $50 price of the whole kite...admittedly lines might be shorter than ideal (thanks again for that knowledge skyclad!). Lastly it's designed and made by a legit kite company. All those things made me think it was a good buy not a cheap kite. Admittedly I am a newbie...but I've tried to do my due diligence in learning what to look for and this kite seemed to have a lot of those things at the best price of any I've seen. Are there other things specifically I should look for to distinguish good and bad kites?

Well its bought and hopefully will ship today so will have to see when it arrives. But honestly for $50 delivered it seemed like a pretty good buy for the features. If not and it's a mistake...oh well...wont be the first time I've made one of those and I am sure wont be the last. For $50 there's not much to lose...if nothing else I am assuming will give me good practice with basics and give me comfort to get a more expensive kite at some time (assuming I enjoy it...but probably a safe bet)

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[makatakam]

Sorry, rant all you want, we understand. We have all been there. We have all felt the same way. We are all still learning, just as you are. Our experience is here, free for the asking. With all the different dual-line delta designs that are available, it is improbable that anyone here started out on that particular kite. Some may have flown it on occasion, if they were lucky enough to meet someone who has one.

You are a teacher, and in this case also a student. As a teacher, I'm sure that you understand what I mean when I say that you wouldn't give your students an assignment and then deny them the tools necessary to accomplish that task. We are only trying to provide those tools. Any kite will perform fairly well in the hands of someone who is a master flyer. Some kites, by design, perform better than others, and are more capable of that task even in the hands of a beginner.

Although I am more interested in quad-line flying, I did start out exactly as you are, low on funding for what piqued my interest. First an HQ Symphony foil which was tons of fun ($40), then a New Tech Kites (NTK) Diode ($60) as my first stunt dual, once I had been flying the foil for a couple of months. Was thrilled, thoroughly! Then I got tired of just zipping around the sky and hanging around the edges of the wind window. I had to try what I saw in the videos, and the kite fought me every inch of the way, because I had the wrong tool for the task I wanted to learn. For the sake of brevity, all I will say is that I spent much more than what I had originally intended within a year. Please don't take any of this as Gospel. Flying kites is fun and we're only trying to make it as much fun as possible for you. The level of expertise you achieve, or want to achieve, will vary drastically from that of everyone else on this forum. Many are completely satisfied with only basic control, and have no desire to engage in competition. Others are not.

Whatever your purpose, have fun doing it. Whatever you choose to fly, I sincerely hope brings you much satisfaction. Flying your kite is 1000% better than not flying a kite. Smile, and don't forget to breathe.

By the way, where do you live? Perhaps someone here can join you in your endeavors.

[Tmadz]

I think it's a good buy. Enough to get you started. You seem to have those important points covered. The next, but maybe most important comes to sail design. Once you get into it and decide what you want to do then you can research more before your next step. And there are plenty of second hand kites available. People sell and trade them all the time. You can post a WTB (want to buy) thread. Sometimes you don't get a response right away, but that just means you'll be able to save up for it a little longer. You don't mention where you are, but look at the member map and see if there's fliers in your area. Meet up and fly with them if it's doable. Most every flier I have met or conversed with on the forums are more than happy to have you try out their kites to see what you like. OPK (other peoples kites) is a great way to try new things without having to shell out for them and help guide your next purchase. 65ft lines are standard for smaller kites. Full sized kites are considered 7ft+ roughly. There are no hard rules.

Finally, difference between good and bad kites? I think you have it covered already. Reputable manufacturers versus no names off the bay. There aren't that many kite mfrs. You'll quickly recognize the few larger players and then start to learn the few boutique kite makers out there.

BTW, what color scheme did you get? Fliers have different tastes. They're as much artwork as fun. People love showing off their kites.

Edit: I read in your other thread that you line in Northern IN. I have a flier pal that lives in Niles, MI and we have a big get together at Indiana Dunes in September. Please come out. There's plenty of room because the beach traffic dies down after swimming season. visit Ikeclub.org. We also have several fliers in SW MI and northern IN.

[Dave362]

Best of luck with your new kite. I apologize if my initial post offended. I had absolutely no intention of doing that. I only replied because I thought it might be helpful to point out one of the trade offs of flying a smaller kite which is, they can require a bit more wind, as I said in my original post. I felt this information would help you understand what you were buying a little bit better. All with good intentions.

Since this thread got going, I looked up this kite and watched some videos. Seems like it will be a good choice as a next step from the foil, and if you find you're interested, will provide an introduction to some basic tricks. Something else that might be helpful, many of us that have been flying a long time flew for years before deciding to learn tricks, quite happily, I might add. In my case, I flew for a long time before tricks were even part of the dual line scene. What I'm saying is, you may just really enjoy flying the kite and never look into tricks. I still like (love) taking my stack of Hawaiian team kites up and cutting some sharp corners. Everyone is different, and there are a ton of ways to enjoy this great activity. So again, welcome to the forum. Its good to have you involved.

Take care,

Dave

[Palmahnic]

Now thqt we're all getting along, @Deadheadkeg , I would like to suggest the next tool for your learning experience: Dodd Gross flight school videos. It covers flying basics from the ground up. All about take offs, landings, push and pull turns (kite steering), and it's free on YouTube, just do a search with that phrase. If you want to continue on with tricking Dodd's videos will take you further on. I'm sure many here started with these, I know I did. Also, since you're starting out with one of his kites you might want to search for his group on Facebook, before he closes it, and maybe get more info, or perhaps talk to the man himself. Best of luck .

Thank you kindly, Iftah.

[Deadheadkeg]

Now thqt we're all getting along, @Deadheadkeg , I would like to suggest the next tool for your learning experience: Dodd Gross flight school videos. It covers flying basics from the ground up. All about take offs, landings, push and pull turns ...

Thanks for the suggestion palmahnic it really is a great one for any newbie. Oddly enough I had already managed to bump into those dodd gross flight school videos...great resource and really like how they have two camera shots to show hands and kite at same time. It made me try push turns on my foil today when I took it out! With not observing or flying with anyone I was tending to only pull to turn. You really can whip it around pretty quick by using both....pretty cool stuff....when I get the freebird I am really going to hit these videos and try to progress through his 6 step lesson / practice routine. It seems like a nice systemic way to learn and improve skills.

I gotta admit Dodd looks like my sorta dude! Throw a tie dye on him, put a beer and a doobie in his hands and he looks like about 1000 other deadheads I saw at the dead show in chicago! [emoji6]

Peace.

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