Widow NG performance thoughts.

[cjay]

 My Widow NG has a trait that I don't understand.

 If I fly across the window and make a 180 turn at the edge to go back the other direction, it has a hesitation, which is more pronounced the lower the wind speed gets. And if the wind drops off much, or if you make any sort of wrong move at that moment, the kite will fall out of the sky.

I can't really fly it at all under a solid 5mph. And at 8 or 9 mph it pulls too hard for my back when flying in the power section of the window.

The kite seems to me like a 5-8 mph kite, that has a weird delay in turn changes at the edge of the window.

I see people flying it and doing tricks in what looks like SUL wind range, but it acts like a brick to me.

 Using the skybond lines helped the kite feel quite a bit over the factory lines.

 I removed the tail weight on the NG but the delay in turn initiation is still there at the edge of the window.

My E2 doesn't have this delay at all. I am thinking it is because of the winglets, and it holds a turn solid and smooth at the edge of the window.

 

[szobelda]

Hi,

1. If it is an adjustable bridle check the setup and locate the upper out-haul loop around the middle knot.

2. In general check the bridle measurements, it sounds like something is off there. you can contact Primier's customer service.

Daniel

[cjay]

On ‎7‎/‎27‎/‎2019 at 11:02 PM, szobelda said:

Hi,

1. If it is an adjustable bridle check the setup and locate the upper out-haul loop around the middle knot.

2. In general check the bridle measurements, it sounds like something is off there. you can contact Primier's customer service.

Daniel

Bridle is adjustable. It has 4 knots. Setting is at 2nd knot from frame. Bridles look pretty close to each other.

[khsidekick]

My son and I both have Widow NG’s and they do not fly the same at all. His flys very well and is easy to do basic tricks. Mine on the other hand just feels and acts like a different kite. I’ve checked all the basics and the two kites appear to be the same. Mine is not enjoyable to fly and doesn’t see much air time anymore.


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[cjay]

3 hours ago, khsidekick said:

My son and I both have Widow NG’s and they do not fly the same at all. His flys very well and is easy to do basic tricks. Mine on the other hand just feels and acts like a different kite. I’ve checked all the basics and the two kites appear to be the same. Mine is not enjoyable to fly and doesn’t see much air time anymore.


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That is interesting. In specific conditions mine is fun for carving turns in the sky. Wouldn't know about the tricks though.

 The upper connector stops that were glued on came loose and had to be re glued. I might not have gotten the stops in the correct spot, and the front spreader might be forward or back of the correct location. I mean they are pretty even with each other, just maybe forward or back of the correct position. I don't have any way to tell.

 Apparently there is a tow point loop adjustments also, in addition to the front bridle knots.

 

 

[Breezin]

Been awhile since I had a NG but I was really pleased with mine. Took awhile but I could fly mine in 3 to 4 on 80# x 100" with no weights. Not well but it'd go up. It might be that the framing is off. Bad run of tubes having different weights? Whiskers off?LS and LE equal lengths?Long shot but it seems odd both of you have crappy kites. Flown 3 Addictions and 2 Nighthawks that have been identical to each other as far as I can tell. On my Tekken I'd adjust above and below 2 knots about 2mm apart. Couldn't fly below 3 hardly at all and quite often it'd fall below 3 with no glide. There's just enough room for the line between the knots. Haven't moved it since. No more problem and that's a pretty small adjustment.Wish I could say I figured it out but nope had to call Lam.NG is not that finely tuned and both of you know enough that a obvious bridle issue would get noticed pretty quick. Smaller bridle issues could be difficult to find. Have you tried switching bridles with Jacks kite?

[khsidekick]

No Breezin he mainly flys quads now and I have several other kites I fly on a regular basis. Never connected with the NG. My wife flys mine now just because she likes the color purple and it works fine for what she does.


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[DavidB]

That is interesting. In specific conditions mine is fun for carving turns in the sky. Wouldn't know about the tricks though.
 The upper connector stops that were glued on came loose and had to be re glued. I might not have gotten the stops in the correct spot, and the front spreader might be forward or back of the correct location. I mean they are pretty even with each other, just maybe forward or back of the correct position. I don't have any way to tell.
 Apparently there is a tow point loop adjustments also, in addition to the front bridle knots.
 
 

I haven’t seen any of the issues you mention with my Widow NG. Shortly after I got my I broke a tube and had Jon T. Send me the framing plan for the kite. This should help you make sure you put the stop in the right place and allow you to check all the other frame and bridle dimensions.



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[cjay]

1 hour ago, DavidB said:

I haven’t seen any of the issues you mention with my Widow NG. Shortly after I got my I broke a tube and had Jon T. Send me the framing plan for the kite. This should help you make sure you put the stop in the right place and allow you to check all the other frame and bridle dimensions.

That is awesome info. Thanks !

 I will have to try the 3rd knot. Mine came set on the 2nd and I have never moved it.

I wonder if top of donut stop means top of connector or top of glued on stop.

 

 

[Breezin]

Well assuming has made a ass out of me. If set 2nd knot from the bottom nose is tilted pretty far back. Set above the top knot is where I could get the kite up in pretty low winds. Issue is with the nose tilted so far in it's easy to pop the kite onto it's belly when launching. Arms extended with a long smooth sweeping pull, 2 steps back should get it up in 3. Takes some pumping to keep it going. 4 is where the kite will start to load up.As you know 5 is where flight stabilizes.Below the bottom knot you should feel a fairly reduced pull in 12 to 15. I remember adjusting the bridle on my NG a lot for wind as I do on my Hydra, Nighthawk and Widow Maker Pro. Other kites not so much if at all. In my inland gusty winds Zephyr adjustments would get just nuts. It did give me a 1/2 way decent grasp on tuning though. I read the measurement as being the top of the donut(do hicky, c clip). I've knocked so many off my Hydra I don't use them on the LE anymore. In flight spreaders stay in place. After a walk of shame I put the connectors back to their marks. Wouldn't recommend that though. Reglued the dang ferrule for the LS on it and the Nighthawk so many times I don't bother with it anymore. Don't recommended that either. Haven't had a issue other than looking for a misplaced ferrule now and again. Not had the issue when replacing a LS or LE on other kites. C clips and ferrules have stayed in place for the most part. Lost a few on the Addiction but that comes more from the flex. Little sanding and until the next mind bending how the hell did it not break twist stay in place.  

[szobelda]

8 minutes ago, Breezin said:

Well assuming has made a ass out of me. If set 2nd knot from the bottom nose is tilted pretty far back. Set above the top knot is where I could get the kite up in pretty low winds. Issue is with the nose tilted so far in it's easy to pop the kite onto it's belly when launching. Arms extended with a long smooth sweeping pull, 2 steps back should get it up in 3. Takes some pumping to keep it going. 4 is where the kite will start to load up.As you know 5 is where flight stabilizes.Below the bottom knot you should feel a fairly reduced pull in 12 to 15. I remember adjusting the bridle on my NG a lot for wind as I do on my Hydra, Nighthawk and Widow Maker Pro. Other kites not so much if at all. In my inland gusty winds Zephyr adjustments would get just nuts. It did give me a 1/2 way decent grasp on tuning though. I read the measurement as being the top of the donut(do hicky, c clip). I've knocked so many off my Hydra I don't use them on the LE anymore. In flight spreaders stay in place. After a walk of shame I put the connectors back to their marks. Wouldn't recommend that though. Reglued the dang ferrule for the LS on it and the Nighthawk so many times I don't bother with it anymore. Don't recommended that either. Haven't had a issue other than looking for a misplaced ferrule now and again. Not had the issue when replacing a LS or LE on other kites. C clips and ferrules have stayed in place for the most part. Lost a few on the Addiction but that comes more from the flex. Little sanding and until the next mind bending how the hell did it not break twist stay in place.  

A good way to avoid the ferrule from moving is to glue it with epoxy glue (not superglue) that will fill the gaps between the inter diameter of the tube and the ferrule.

For C-rings I use superglue. I actually cut rings from old end caps and make my own thin and elegant c-rings. I use an end cap that has a smaller diameter than the tube for extra hold.

I made my own bridles and I never use the 3-4 knots bridle angle adjustment system. I always take a STD, a UL and a SUL so I can cover a large wind speed range.   

I hope this helps 🙂

[Breezin]

1 hour ago, szobelda said:

A good way to avoid the ferrule from moving is to glue it with epoxy glue (not superglue) that will fill the gaps between the inter diameter of the tube and the ferrule.

Real nice SUL winds for a bit over a hour this morning. Transitioning to a rising fade got about 5' off the ground. Nose plant and danged if I didn't break the ferrule loose on my AC. Should have NEVER mentioned loose ferrules. Went and jinxed myself. I used some plastic tubing for the spine on my Hydra and Nighthawk.When needed the end cap instead will sure look a lot nicer. Not a fan of c clips. Crashing will always be a issue for me it seems. If I'm not crashing it's like I'm not trying hard enough LOL.

[Tim P.]

You can swap out the c-clips. Take vinyl end caps and cut into rings. Slide the ring into the place you want it and then take an opened paper clip to lift the ring off of the rod a bit and place a drop of glue under it. Remove paper clip to put the ring back down flat. A lot easier to deal with than c-clips and looks better too.

[cjay]

15 hours ago, szobelda said:

If set 2nd knot from the bottom nose is tilted pretty far back. Set above the top knot is where I could get the kite up in pretty low winds.

Manual:

"For faster climb in lighter winds, connect the upper bridle to the knots closer to the kite frame. For faster turning in higher winds connect the upper bridle to the knots farther from the kite frame. "

 

So that means light wind setting nose is more toward you, and high wind setting nose would be more away from you ?

 

[Tim P.]

9 hours ago, cjay said:

So that means light wind setting nose is more toward you, and high wind setting nose would be more away from you ? 

Yep, that's right. But in REALLY high winds, I've found it helps out to bring the nose  back in (light wind setting) to help spill some excess wind off the trailing edge. Play with the settings in different conditions to see the differences and find what works best for you.

[Breezin]

Nose adjustments are for tweaking how a kite tricks too. Nose forward in my experience makes a kite easier to roll up. Tilted back and turtle based rotational tricks become easier. Easier to hold/rise a fade or get a rising turtle. It's on the extreme end of a kites range that the adjustments are for wind. Angling whiskers in helps with lift. Out helps dumps the wind off the wing tips on most kites. 4 knots on my AC SUL but I've left the nose at the top knot for awhile now. Still got a ton to learn about that kite before confusing myself with angle of attack.Not that big a deal in low winds. At times on some of my kites I've confused the heck out of myself changing the nose in the middle of their wind range.Only 2 on my Mind Trick vented. Tilted back kite is difficult to roll up w/o having the kite tilted to one side or the other with a little power. Widow Maker has 6 but I've really only used the middle 4.Hydra has the most dramatic changes that I can kinda grasp the dynamics of. Nose forward kite just flips and flips. Hence its nickname. FLIP 😲. Think to really understand and utilize the nose adjustments for tricking flier has to be pretty advanced. I'll get there. Spent the morning in fast cycling winds going from 3 to over 15. Good time on my Widow Maker but the gusties blew it out of the sky a few times. Up went the Mind Trick vented. Handles the gusts so much better with 1/2 the pull/speed in 15 mph bumpy winds. Kite will trick from 5 to 25 and handle 35 pretty well. A light vented Lam kite might serve you a lot better than the NG. I took to my Tekken instantly but the AC and Mind Trick have been the most difficult kites to learn. Keep that in mind.Worth EVERY bit of the frustration though. They demand that I get better. Even the Tekken SUL in 15 has a lot less pull than the WMP. From what I remember the NG pulls a bit more than the WMP. What was hard for my back to adjust to on the Mongoose and WMP was the almost instant sail load in the upper range. Stiffest framed kites I have (Nitro).Kites get fast real quick and it's tons of fun. Took awhile to figure out that load point and brace or unload accordingly so I didn't get jerked around. I don't recall being able to dump the wind on the NG very well. Not a good flier then but I do remember how much quicker I was able to do it on the Hydra. The NG has a fuller sail.Not true for every kite but the fuller the sail the more pull you'll get. Watch videos of the Benson Supernova compared with the R Sky Nirvana. Which standard will pull a bit more? Bet ya with the shallower sails the Lam standards pull at least a 1/3 less and have 25% more wind range.Fun factor? Well that's pretty subjective and I doubt one is way more fun than the other. IMO it'd probably be the Benson though. Man I need a Superfly.

[cjay]

Got some solid time in on the Widow NG and E2 today.

Thankful to be able to fly again, for awhile there it looked like it might not be possible.

Flew the Widow NG without the weight and on the 3rd knot. The lag or hesitation between turns is still there, and is very annoying. The pull was lighter on the 3rd vs 2nd knot. I did not like the way It flew without the weight, and on the 3rd knot.

I haven't compared all of the measurements to the blueprint yet, but the top spreader position looks pretty close.

 

After the Widow NG was getting on my nerves, and the wind was getting too strong for it, I switched to the E2 and had a good session. That thing is so smooth and quiet, and pulls through turn transitions like it has a motor, zero hesitation or delay, just consistent, and with much lighter pull than the Widow NG.

 

I need to fly some other various kites now, I am really curious to see if they have a delay at turn transitions outside of the power zone of the window.

[szobelda]

Dear cjay,

The widow NG is a kite with good slack line trick abilities. the noise in high speeds is normal for this kite (a way to lower the kite's speed in order to better preform the tricks).

Same goes to the different behavior at the external parts of the wind window - the sail is designed to generate less pressure (pull) in order to make tricking easier, therefore it might feel less responsive/forgiving at the window edges. This is also very typical to stunts with tricking abilities.

I hope this helps,

Daniel    

[Breezin]

6 hours ago, szobelda said:

 the sail is designed to generate less pressure (pull) in order to make tricking easier, therefore it might feel less responsive/forgiving at the window edges. 

The E2 is a well thought of kite. E3 has some pretty mixed reviews with most being more negative. May very well be Daniel has pointed out a very valid reason as to why.As tricking has changed E3 may have gotten a unwarranted bad rap. From research ONLY I thought it would be somewhat similar to a R Sky Nirvana which wouldn't be a bad thing at all. Those of you that have flown both please chime in. I need the education.

[cjay]

I think SZOBELDA has it right about the handling of the E2 vs. the Widow NG. A modern trick kite person might not like the E3, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy one for carving turns.

The E2 winglets with the support whiskers might have something to do with it keeping pull in turn transitions at the edge of the window.

 

The E2 is said to have a better build quality than the E3, but I don't know if that is true or not. The E2 was made in the US factory, and the E3 production was overseas.

Prism said the differences are that the E3 has a pultruded spine. They did that because beginners kept breaking the P200 spine. The pultruded spine is thinner so the T has a smaller hole. And also that: ... "we’ve redesigned the E3 wing geometry with a new profile and higher aspect ratio to add precision and tracking."

A person could just put a skyshark P200 spine in and drill the T out a little bigger to fit and you have a E2 frame, but the wing would still be different.

I actually went the other way and put an E3 spine and T in my relatives E2 because people kept breaking the P200. I have a spare E3 spine, T, and weight for mine also, but haven't used it yet.

 I have heard that there are some overseas factories with the capability of fully computer cutting and sewing kites with virtually no defects, with more precision than can by achieved by a person.

[wen]

Is the hesitation more pronounced after an upwards 180 and does the pull lessen? I've had a few larger kites that did the same thing if you turned too tight near the edge.

[cjay]

Yes because it does that  cause it is basically stalled out there for a second or a little more. I am still getting used to it.