Venting Thoughts

[riffclown]

On ‎8‎/‎19‎/‎2019 at 11:36 PM, DTill said:

Sold the spider and built a mesh and bought  a mid vent. Love the mesh ,but it doesn't  catch and throw like the mid. The spider has to much venting in the center. Rev doesn't  have any idea of how to vent a kite. You need sail area  in the center and vent the edges. They failed on the spider and probably did it again on the tarantula. Why would you take a low wind kite and vent the center.

After realizing I was completely hijacking the other conversation, I split this off to its own topic..

I'm going to break with conventional wisdom and disagree with what we've always thought on one minor point. The B-series taught Rev how to vent from what is now the standard accepted approach. Mid-vent take a stripe off of each wing and replace with screen . Full vent, Take 2.. etc.  Bazzer's Phoenix started venting the trailing edge (including on the full sail) which changes the way the kites load up. It kind of de-whumps the sail if you know what I mean.  Right or wrong it was a different approach that really seems to come into its own around the full vent level. The Spider as you said, moves lamost all of the flying surface outside the spars which works but the kite has very little glide and no real belly to load. It was yet another approach.

@John Barresi's Djinn design smooths out the limitation of the B-Series by making the venting profile follow the natural curvature of the loaded sail. It adds a consistent relief in a  more effectively targeted area.

Personally (and this is why I disagree),  in those versions of venting, (including on the Shooks) you still have a basic solid panel in the center which in essence becomes the axis of your flying surface. Too much belly throws off the overall balance of the sail as much as "not enough" affects the Spider. You end up flying the belly which can lose fine control of the outer surfaces.

IMO, a balanced approach to venting across the entire sail whether a small amount or a large amount gives you the best result. You still have your balanced sail feel on the handles. You still have your glide. Most importantly, no part of the sail becomes overpowered in a gust. We've all made tweaks to existing designs to get what we want from our kites. The balanced venting approach is really hard to set down once you've tried it.. It feels like a full sail, flies like a full sail but handles the high wind in ways you'd never expect. Bottom line, is I feel a balanced approach to venting gives you the most stable sail design, within your targeted wind window and even just above it. It takes more work to make a kite this way but it's truly worth it for the increase in feel and handling.

Winds 18-25 Flying balanced diamonds venting  Full Vent 72" style. Blisteringly fast but still balanced flight.

 

Winds were whipping this year at the Rogallo.

1.5 size and my balanced diamonds mid venting.. Notice the flags in the foreground at the beginning of this vid.

 

[riffclown]

Would love to hear other opinions about venting patterns, especially from Phoenix, Frelilein, Shook and other owners of the different venting styles.

FWIW, they all have advantages and disadvantages but the most important issue is, how does a venting style affect you as a flier??

 

[SparkieRob]

My PoloVTD has the centres vented. It creates a very different feel. I can't generate the whump but at the winds I use it at, above 30-40km/h, it doesn't really affect me. I have found that it is more stable inverted than my B Series. The frame doesn't flex under load as much either.

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[SparkieRob]

The sail venting comes deep into the centre. With 4 triangles added too.

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[DTill]

1 hour ago, SparkieRob said:

My PoloVTD has the centres vented. It creates a very different feel. I can't generate the whump but at the winds I use it at, above 30-40km/h, it doesn't really affect me. I have found that it is more stable inverted than my B Series. The frame doesn't flex under load as much either.

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When I went to quad clinic John had me swap out the 4 wrap in my full vent to a 3 wrap to make it cup more and accelerate faster to keep up with the Djinns during team flying. Seemed counterintuitive at the time,, but worked. His sail loading and tuning videos are now the most helpful. Things flesh out in team that you don't see when flying solo.

[Wayne Dowler]

I believe that what riff was commenting on, the center panel, does change the way I  fly my Phoenix kites. Most of our team maneuvers are indeed initiated from the center of the sail. Keeping pressure in the center keeps the whole sail loaded, IMHO. I look at pressure as a ball, I don't want to lose it as I turn. To me, venting the center is like taking the engine out of my car. Now I admit to not flying any center vented stuff, and I won't mind trying anything that is.

[riffclown]

44 minutes ago, Wayne Dowler said:

I believe that what riff was commenting on, the center panel, does change the way I  fly my Phoenix kites. Most of our team maneuvers are indeed initiated from the center of the sail. Keeping pressure in the center keeps the whole sail loaded, IMHO. I look at pressure as a ball, I don't want to lose it as I turn. To me, venting the center is like taking the engine out of my car. Now I admit to not flying any center vented stuff, and I won't mind trying anything that is.

Exactly but I was also referring to the way changes in venting levels from kite to kite changes the way the kite loads more drastically than just the surface area total.  A full sail loads up with a certain balance across the whole sail. Move over to a B-Series Midvent for instance and you've provided relief to the outside of the sail but also emphasized the belly load. A full Vent configuration does that even more. Eventually you are flying only the center panel.

The Spider does the exact opposite. By venting the belly and not the outer part of the wings it refuses to load up in any way and becomes actually a bit awkward to control in strong winds because it isn't balanced.

I'm arguing that balancing all of that a bit is some of what Bazzer was after with the Phoenix but in the full sail at least he may have vented a bit much. Once you get to his mid-vent it kind of has the balance I'm talking about. The Phoenix vented maybe even more so.

My approach is very gentle relief over the entire sail. It still loads up but the higher pressure on the sail under the higher winds doesn't overpower. You can still load but it doesn't have that tendency to over load.

 

 

[Wayne Dowler]

I'd agree that the Phoenix STD may have limits. It is a bit sluggish and loses hover at the lower ends of its wind range. That was corrected by the Ashes. It is the SUL full sail that was never made in the "B" pro series. It closes the gap the STD leaves behind.

[riffclown]

I've said a few times if I was buying a whole Phoenix set, I'd get the Ashes and skip to the Midvent from there..

[SparkieRob]

I'd agree that the Phoenix STD may have limits. It is a bit sluggish and loses hover at the lower ends of its wind range. That was corrected by the Ashes. It is the SUL full sail that was never made in the "B" pro series. It closes the gap the STD leaves behind.

Can you explain how the Ashes is different from the B Pro Standard? Does it have a different icarex weight or a lighter leading edge pocket or such?

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[Wayne Dowler]

Not sure on the sail weight, but the LE pocket is lighter, lighter bridle too. No venting at all.

[Paul LaMasters]

Ashes is the same Icarex sail material, only the leading edge sleeving is changed to 1.5 ounce nylon instead of 3.9 ounce Dacron.

My bridle on the Ashes was the same 100# hi-test as the B-Series, although I have replaced it since acquisition

[John Dvoracek]

On 8/20/2019 at 12:36 PM, riffclown said:

IMO, a balanced approach to venting across the entire sail whether a small amount or a large amount gives you the best result. You still have your balanced sail feel on the handles. You still have your glide. Most importantly, no part of the sail becomes overpowered in a gust. We've all made tweaks to existing designs to get what we want from our kites. The balanced venting approach is really hard to set down once you've tried it.. It feels like a full sail, flies like a full sail but handles the high wind in ways you'd never expect. Bottom line, is I feel a balanced approach to venting gives you the most stable sail design, within your targeted wind window and even just above it. It takes more work to make a kite this way but it's truly worth it for the increase in feel and handling.

Nice review of venting styles. Only three of my kites are vented, but more probably should be. I only fly the Barresi B mid-vent and the Shook when I have to - but nice to be able to fly above 25 mph - because they do feel a bit "sluggish". I don't have enough experience with the Phoenix tail vent only yet. Thanks for sharing.

[Wayne Dowler]

All but 1 of the Phoenix sails has those little "tail" vents (6 total). Someone in our group nicknamed them "quarter vents". They do change the wind range for each sail slightly upward. If all your friends are on mid-vent Revs, you might still be on the std Phoenix, etc. They also make the transition from forward to reverse slightly easier. Still can't jam it on without thought, but it is easier. And they do shrink your wind window slightly.

The Shook feels sluggish???!!??? Mine is just about the "lightest" feeling sail in my bag! Feels way smaller than what it is. Almost like comparing a Rev2 to the 1.5, light and fast.

IMHO - much over 20-25 mph and flying stops being "fun" and becomes a sort of survival. But YMMV ......

[riffclown]

47 minutes ago, Wayne Dowler said:

All but 1 of the Phoenix sails has those little "tail" vents (6 total). Someone in our group nicknamed them "quarter vents". They do change the wind range for each sail slightly upward. If all your friends are on mid-vent Revs, you might still be on the std Phoenix, etc. They also make the transition from forward to reverse slightly easier. Still can't jam it on without thought, but it is easier. And they do shrink your wind window slightly.

The Shook feels sluggish???!!??? Mine is just about the "lightest" feeling sail in my bag! Feels way smaller than what it is. Almost like comparing a Rev2 to the 1.5, light and fast.

IMHO - much over 20-25 mph and flying stops being "fun" and becomes a sort of survival. But YMMV ......

I'll stick with my original opinion for balanced venting.. regardless of how much or how little, the balance of the venting is the key for me now..

[Paul LaMasters]

On 8/27/2019 at 10:21 AM, Wayne Dowler said:

I'd agree that the Phoenix STD may have limits. It is a bit sluggish and loses hover at the lower ends of its wind range. That was corrected by the Ashes. It is the SUL full sail that was never made in the "B" pro series. It closes the gap the STD leaves behind.

Ha, the B -series pro kite WAS available as an SUL, you just had to request it that way ( regardless of venting desired). Bazzer always made em "my way", even unfinished leading edges when cooperative endeavors were called for.... ask for what you want