Freilein Oskusa Vertigo vs Exodus ?

[Alex D]

In my quest for my first quad I have gotten great advice from riffclown, bunduki and of course John via PM. One question John encouraged me to post is what the difference between the two Freilein quads is when they look identical to me when I compare pictures online. I know the Exodus can be had vented, but the full sail versions of these kites look identical. What are the actual differences between them?

[Zuul]

Exodus is Icarex.  Vertigo is cheaper Chinese polyester.

[riffclown]

Icarex is a name brand for PC31 fabric.. Vertigo is a lighter fabric PC21 and the fear when the Vertigo was first released was the durability of the fabric itself. FWIW, Icarex is also a Chinese fabric. The difference here is the weight of the fabric and expected durability.. Having owned several Vertigos and a few Exodus kites, I have no personal complaints with the durability of either.

I will note that the Vertigos have do a tendency to mar at the crease marks and that has been since the kites were new but I have yet to have a run, tear or fabric failure in either model. (I throw launch a stack of Vertigos so I'm not easy on them by any stretch of the imagination)

 

A couple or relevant threads

 

  https://kitelife.com/forum/topic/7389-4-lines-your-choices/

 

On 9/11/2016 at 6:31 PM, kitedad said:

When I bought the vertigo he told me straight up the sail material in the vertigo line is p20 I think he called it, is new to kites and has not been tried and tested in service for years like p31, icarex they call it which is used in the exodus line. The p20 sail in a std.is a little lighter and can fly in a little less wind than the exodus std. It looks and feels just like icarex. I prefer the p20 in the vertigo std because of the slightly improved wind range. even though the sail exibits crease marks along the fold lines more readily than icarex. I would have preferred to have gotten the exodus max instead of the vertigo max had I to do it all over and not take a chance on that kite as the wind range is irrelevant with the max'es.  both Kites seems to be flying well though. I can't say if he knew about the crease mark thing in the p20 when he sold me the kite, it was more like Hey look this kite material is new and I don't know if it will last a year or ten years. It was my decision - I found out about the crease marks a few weeks later from another vertigo flyer I recently met at the field. Who knows who knew what when.

 

 

[riffclown]

Four years later I have no complaints and the fold marks have not been problematic in the long run..

[Alex D]

Thank you riffclown!  Excellent advice as always! 👍👍

 

It is a bit of a strategy for a company to market two products and keep two sku s in invetory with so little difference 😕

[Zuul]

3 minutes ago, riffclown said:

FWIW, Icarex is also a Chinese fabric.

Since when?  It’s made by Teijin Limited; a Japanese company.

[riffclown]

Just now, Zuul said:

Since when?  It’s made by Teijin Limited; a Japanese company.

If that is the case,I'll retract my statement, I had been under the impression it was a Chinese Polycarbonate..

 

[Alex D]

The durability experience that riffclown had I think means more than where it was made. I know riffclown had Freilein kites for some time and has put them through their paces.

[riffclown]

6 minutes ago, Alex D said:

The durability experience that riffclown had I think means more than where it was made. I know riffclown had Freilein kites for some time and has put them through their paces.

While I appreciate that confidence, I would also keep an open mind to other inputs.  There are folks that fly kites way beyond the limits I put my kites through..

[Alex D]

Point taken!  Bingo  thats why I posted the question. Still surprises me a company would launch two products with minor differences in fabric, but not significant user benefit differences.  I dont think that we can simply dismiss products because they come from China vs Japan. I totally get the point that the characteristics of the material play a big role!

[riffclown]

1 hour ago, riffclown said:

If that is the case,I'll retract my statement, I had been under the impression it was a Chinese Polycarbonate..

 

My original response edited to strike out the errant statement.

[Zuul]

5 hours ago, Alex D said:

Point taken!  Bingo  thats why I posted the question. Still surprises me a company would launch two products with minor differences in fabric, but not significant user benefit differences.  I dont think that we can simply dismiss products because they come from China vs Japan. I totally get the point that the characteristics of the material play a big role!

I agree that there isn’t any proven performance superiority.  Icarex has a long proven track record, though, and some people will be willing to pay for a known quantity.  Others are cost sensitive and may well be getting the better deal.  Given the small size of the sport kite market, it could be a couple more years before there is enough track record to say one way or the other.

The only kite in my collection that might be PC21/PC20 (I’ve seen it called both) is the Sky Sport ATM.  Honestly I don’t know, but it’s never worried me.  It performs well and there aren’t any unexpected wear issues.

The funny thing is, Icarex was short lived in the sailing market it was made for.  Icarex spinnakers were known to fail unexpectedly and catastrophically.  Boat owners didn’t care for that.  It makes a nice kite, though.  😉  I’d be willing to bet there are other spinnaker fabrics being made that are as good or better for kites than Icarex, but that name sells.

[riffclown]

11 hours ago, Zuul said:

I agree that there isn’t any proven performance superiority.  Icarex has a long proven track record, though, and some people will be willing to pay for a known quantity.  Others are cost sensitive and may well be getting the better deal.  Given the small size of the sport kite market, it could be a couple more years before there is enough track record to say one way or the other.

The only kite in my collection that might be PC21/PC20 (I’ve seen it called both) is the Sky Sport ATM.  Honestly I don’t know, but it’s never worried me.  It performs well and there aren’t any unexpected wear issues.

The funny thing is, Icarex was short lived in the sailing market it was made for.  Icarex spinnakers were known to fail unexpectedly and catastrophically.  Boat owners didn’t care for that.  It makes a nice kite, though.  😉  I’d be willing to bet there are other spinnaker fabrics being made that are as good or better for kites than Icarex, but that name sells.

Will also add that this discussion has been going on in a few circles for about four years now so the lighter fabric is proven at least to some point. I've heard far more about Green Trimmed Rods breaking than Vertigos failing in that time frame. I can't recall but two instances of a vertigo failing and both were a rod break, not a fabric fail.

If you are looking for lower bottom end and you want to stay with the 1.5 size then a Vertigo or even a Printed one piece sail would be the way to go.

Icarex is not cheap (i buy quite a bit of it) but is also better accepted and IMO has a more define supply chain to the US for those of us that make our kites. As far as the Freilein Brand goes, If Price is the major issue then a pair of Vertigos would be the simple path. (A full sail and a Max)

 

 

If venting options are the focus, then the Exodus would be the better offering from Freilein.

You can't go wrong with the KiteForge Djinn which seems to be at the apex of innovation right now but that price point is a bit steep for many.

 

Revolution is the way to go if you like Springs and just want that brand. but most seasons fliers will tell you to look for used and avoid the green trimmed rods.

Revpolo and Phoenix as well as the numerous boutique makers are all pretty solid choices as well.

Initially get what works for you and decide from there. As long as you have good quality lines and handles, what's on the lines 35-120 ft away becomes less of an issue for the casual or new flier. Once you progress in skills, the decisions become easier for you but they become much more personal. You won't ask the same question because you will already know most of what you seek. We don't mind the question at all because we welcome new entries into the quad flying world. Just know the more you experience them more you will know what you want to look for next.

Bottom line is there's no wrong answer or right answer. it's really what works for you and fits your pocketbook and preferences.

Best advice is to start used and something with some resilience to learn on.

 

[riffclown]

OR you can try the brute force approach like I have and try every option..

(WARNING, IT GETS EXPENSIVE VERY QUICKLY)

[Alex D]

I think I settled on a package to make sure I am in this for more than just a thought. THe EXP for 185 RTF is tempting. Comes in under $200 RTF to my house. But I settled for a Freilein Vertigo for 199 with Freilein handles for 49 and LPG 90#x80' lines for 71. All of it together for 320 to my house. Still wondering if I should have gone with the EXP first, but ohh well .... I had really great advice from all of you, especially riffclown and  John and I am very grateful for your guidance!!  That's also why I renewed my subscription here too to put back in. If I get the hang of it and stick with it, I will go with a Djinn MV as my next one.

[mebeatee]

There have been many kites offered with different sail cloths over the years, mostly dual liners....ikky vs poly versions for example. There were slight differences in performance.....at least given manufacturers specs...ikky versions usually had a lower wind range. Some Skyburner/Premier kites, Jam Session, Stranger and more. iirc PBSK offered up a few sail options for his line of kites....

Some sails just feel different in the air. I have a couple old "soft cloth" Rev 2's and a couple of newer "crispy cloth" 2's, and the soft cloth ones feel "smoother" in flight. Same with a new 1.5 sail vs an old 1.5 w/mylar....the mylar one feels "slicker". 

bt

 

 

[Dutchrev]

On 11/27/2020 at 11:29 PM, riffclown said:

If that is the case,I'll retract my statement, I had been under the impression it was a Chinese Polycarbonate..

 

Interesting this returning misunderstanding regarding Icarex. Will contact tomorrow the Dutch company Vliegerop. They own the name Icarex and I know the factory is in Japan as stated above. Will ask them what the current status is regarding their ownership of Icarex.

[Alex D]

1 hour ago, Dutchrev said:

Interesting this returning misunderstanding regarding Icarex. Will contact tomorrow the Dutch company Vliegerop. They own the name Icarex and I know the factory is in Japan as stated above. Will ask them what the current status is regarding their ownership of Icarex.

Grabbing some popcorn.. This is getting interesting!

[riffclown]

2 hours ago, Dutchrev said:

Interesting this returning misunderstanding regarding Icarex. Will contact tomorrow the Dutch company Vliegerop. They own the name Icarex and I know the factory is in Japan as stated above. Will ask them what the current status is regarding their ownership of Icarex.

I don't think the ownership was ever the doubt.. I had merely been misinformed or just outright mistaken as to the source.

[makatakam]

I like popcorn.

[riffclown]

I like popcorn also but I really don't feel there is any drama here; just me being wrong.. I've been wrong before..

[Zuul]

Agreed about the lack of drama.  I wasn't trying to start a "thing".  If production had moved to China, I was legitimately curious as to when.  No biggy.

[riffclown]

39 minutes ago, Zuul said:

Agreed about the lack of drama.  I wasn't trying to start a "thing".  If production had moved to China, I was legitimately curious as to when.  No biggy.

I'm also interested in knowing the answer since I do get asked a lot about fabrics..

[John P]

Found this on the Icarex spec sheet. They could have multiple plants. Teijin also has a partnership with Dupont so they could make some in the US.

Manufacturer

Teijin is the manufacturer of Icarex. Tejin is a very large manufacturer of all kinds of synthetic fibers and fabric (mainly polyester based fabrics), with offices around the world and a workforce of more than 20,000 people.

 

[Lon]

Alex D,

I would listen riffclown!

I own both a Exodus MV and a Vertigo STD.   They were both purchased from Andy up at OSK in Ocean Shores, WA.  Side note here, Andy and Brenda, well you won't meet better people!!

So the reason I purchased the Vertigo was to have a lighter wind quad.  Since the sail material is a little lighter than the Exodus quads, it seemed like I good choice and I have been very happy with it.  I also framed it with beyond zero rods to make it even a little lighter.

I think you will be very happy with your purchase and there is a lot of great help here!!