sirrom Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 IMHO Length of your line set does not matter when flying alone. Where it comes into play is only flying with someone or Team flying. I really do not think a few inches makes very much difference. Some people fly like Bazzer with their hands very close to their body and then take JB who moves his arms and legs all over with the music. Therefore the distance to the kite will vary even with those variables. And then look at the leader knots for brake adjustment.. The list goes on with other variables. I sleeve & loop one end then measure out 120' then add 18' to each end for the final loop and knots, then stretch the lines after the first half of the sleeves are done, then finish the sleeves and stretch again. I think the main objective is to make sure your top lines are even and bottom lines are even. In the times I have flown with I-Quad or Island Quad the length of the lines has never been a problem. I know some people have been off as much as 2 or three feet and we did just fine. I would bet that I-Quad they are within inches but they worry more about the top lines being equal and bottom lines being equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyzakite Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 The way I see it with kite lines is I visit 2 forums, I read the words of other kite people then come up with my learned ideas, a friend and I mess with kites locally rarely fly together but together we pick up info from others here, I've seen 4 or 5 other people in my life flying revs or dual lines, i know wear and tear, but only make lines the way I can understand them from what I read here and there, 2 forums is good enough for me. I'll take a length of line, sleeve one end and hook it on a hook on the fence post, then pull it back, really pull it back, then I take the next piece of line and do the same, once the lines are stretched close enough for me I attach the 2 of them to my first kite a prism quantum, usually through 1 album of music, I'll take a break then make another set later, when I'm ready. Lastliy I will take the 4 lines and adjust them to length by tune of each line by plucking each of them because I'm me, I'm interested in rev kites. So here I am learning every day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barresi Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 We typically have one person take care of making all the team line sets, generally either Steve or Bazzer, or both together. This way, it's always standardized. However, our line lengths still vary up to 3 feet between at times, we just try to put the longer sets on the leading kites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reef Runner Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 We typically have one person take care of making all the team line sets, generally either Steve or Bazzer, or both together. This way, it's always standardized. However, our line lengths still vary up to 3 feet between at times, we just try to put the longer sets on the leading kites. Well, that just about does it, don't it As I see it, and as most have assumed, the "exact" length issue, is really not all that critical (withing reason) It appears that the real focus, as always, should remain on getting everything equalized. I think we can all agree, that this "IS" critical ps............hey JB, thanks for jumping in here, we were all curious about that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--Pete Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Isn't that what you were saying Pete ???? Say it's so Pete, say it's so ! :big_beer: It's so; especially if you add on a few inches "for luck". (And perhaps you've made a clearer explanation of WHY it's so.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reef Runner Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Isn't that what you were saying Pete ???? Say it's so Pete, say it's so ! :big_beer: It's so; especially if you add on a few inches "for luck". (And perhaps you've made a clearer explanation of WHY it's so.) Gotcha covered big guy ! I always add a few inches "for luck" & "for knots" ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--Pete Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Well, I'll give fair warning, right now. Anyone that flies with me better watch out, because all of my line sets, are 16" longer than I say they are ! ... Easy enough: just set up some nails at the proper length; pick the knots out (used dental picks with the tips slightly blunted/polished are good for this); slide the sleeve inwards; and re-tie at the "right" length. (And cut off the excess.) That works for anyone with slightly long lines. if you made them under-length, you just have to make a loop of bridle line with a knot for the line larks head at one end to extend your lines by the amount of shortage. You will probably want to put the extension at the handle end of the lines to keep the weight at the kite down. Or not! As Sirrom and JB (kitelife) said, up to three feet doesn't seem to be a problem and may even let you "tune" the team by deliberately choosing who gets which lines (or who flies at which position). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reef Runner Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Well, I'll give fair warning, right now. Anyone that flies with me better watch out, because all of my line sets, are 16" longer than I say they are ! ... Easy enough: just set up some nails at the proper length; pick the knots out (used dental picks with the tips slightly blunted/polished are good for this); slide the sleeve inwards; and re-tie at the "right" length. (And cut off the excess.) That works for anyone with slightly long lines. if you made them under-length, you just have to make a loop of bridle line with a knot for the line larks head at one end to extend your lines by the amount of shortage. You will probably want to put the extension at the handle end of the lines to keep the weight at the kite down. Or not! As Sirrom and JB (kitelife) said, up to three feet doesn't seem to be a problem and may even let you "tune" the team by deliberately choosing who gets which lines (or who flies at which position) Well, I'm not going to loose too much sleep over it, because as Duane and I have both mentioned, "There are no 'others' here!!", so no sweat........ However, I do understand, what you are saying ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeepster Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 ... It appears that the real focus, as always, should remain on getting everything equalized. ... To that point, let me share one trick to getting them equalized right from the start. If you're going to make a set of 120 foot lines do this: 1) Sleeve the first end with your top sleeving. 2) Measure out 120 feet (+/- your extra length for one sleeving) then go around a pin and back to the beginning. 3) Cut and sleeve that end with your top sleeving. 4) Now go back to the pin and put the loop through a carabiner or pulley ... tug on the loop with double your normal pull ... a little less than 2 X 0.65 X line strength. The trick is that you now have induced equal creep into both of your top lines. If you pulled each one independently, the creep will be slightly different and will show up during the first few flights. 5) Cut the line right at the loop and sleeve the two remaining ends. Or double check the length and cut accordingly ... I guarantee it'll be too long. I usually end up with an extra two foot plus cut off piece ... Now you have a matched set of top lines ... repeat for the bottom lines and you're good to go. None of the above will make you a better flier ... it'll just give you more time to fly ... and take away one of your normal excuses for why the kite won't behave. Cheers, Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 No Excuses !!!! Darn!!! Thanks, JB for giving your 2 cents worth on this subject!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru4tru Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Well....my length is about near perfect, but it just doesn't stand up like it used to! Keep It Up! Duane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reef Runner Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Well....my length is about near perfect, but it just doesn't stand up like it used to! Keep It Up! Duane This is a "family" forum !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reef Runner Posted March 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 ... It appears that the real focus, as always, should remain on getting everything equalized. ... To that point, let me share one trick to getting them equalized right from the start. If you're going to make a set of 120 foot lines do this: 1) Sleeve the first end with your top sleeving. 2) Measure out 120 feet (+/- your extra length for one sleeving) then go around a pin and back to the beginning. 3) Cut and sleeve that end with your top sleeving. 4) Now go back to the pin and put the loop through a carabiner or pulley ... tug on the loop with double your normal pull ... a little less than 2 X 0.65 X line strength. The trick is that you now have induced equal creep into both of your top lines. If you pulled each one independently, the creep will be slightly different and will show up during the first few flights. 5) Cut the line right at the loop and sleeve the two remaining ends. Or double check the length and cut accordingly ... I guarantee it'll be too long. I usually end up with an extra two foot plus cut off piece ... Now you have a matched set of top lines ... repeat for the bottom lines and you're good to go. None of the above will make you a better flier ... it'll just give you more time to fly ... and take away one of your normal excuses for why the kite won't behave. Cheers, Tom Hey Tom.............Great method, process, or whatever. You've definately got a point, on equalization. I'll try your way, on the next set................ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru4tru Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 Well....my length is about near perfect, but it just doesn't stand up like it used to! Keep It Up! Duane This is a "family" forum !! You misunderstood what I was saying!.....Let me re-pharses that! My length is perfect, but it's sort of worn out! I need to see about getting something to bring it back to life again. I tried that dry lube, but it's not all I thought it would be. I suppose I'll try something else before I just give it up! Keep It Up! (Better flying thru chemistry) Duane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgewarden Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Duane: To revive lines that are tending to sticky, try some Sewer Aid. That is "Sow-er", not "Sue-er", and can be found at some sewing, craft, or fabric stores. It is expensive, but goes a long way. It is a fabric & thread friendly lubricant. Put a few drops on a very small rag, and run it over the lines while they are stretched out. All: I have two sets of 120' lines. The first set I carefully measured to 240' (6 x 40'), stretched. Cut in half and sleeved with 12" sleeves. Repeat to make a total of 4 lines. The first time the lines came close to another flier's, the remark was made - your lines are a little short! Hmm - yeah, obviously did not allow for the loops. Conclusion - two feet is obvious to seasoned fliers (with loops the lines measure close to 118'). Also, in a Rev Clinic I attended, the point was made that the lead kite in a "follow the leader" group should stand in front, with each successive flier standing a few feet behind the flier in front so that the turbulence from the leading kites has less or no effect on the followers. It seems that with a 3' variance, each flier would have to stand 4' behind the flier in front. This is probably an example of over-thinking a non-problem - making from a "mole hill" the unsightly mountains visible in my yard. ( moles.) Anyway, this topic did settle for me a nagging question - are lines measured with the end loops, or measured before loops. After looping! Right? Both Theresa (Kite Shoppe) and Dave (Kite Connection) make line sets which are certainly at least as good (most probably much better) as I could hope to. But I have a "Do-it-yourself" gene and cannot help myself. Is there a DIY 12 step program? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeepster Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 ... Is there a DIY 12 step program? Yes there is ... but they didn't get it right ... I'm in the process of fixing it! Cheers, Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--Pete Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 - are lines measured with the end loops, or measured before loops. After looping! Right? ... Yes, including the loops. If you can just loop the ends over nails which are xxx feet apart, you have xxx foot lines. I am getting inspired. I have a LONG, straight, well-lighted concrete wall in a 4 foot by 8 foot by 106 foot tunnel: (From when it was under construction.) I am thinking of setting some screw anchors at a comfortable working height with one at "0" and more at 15, 20, 25, 30, 40, 50, 80, 100, (ack! not long enough for 120s - have to make a third bracket with pulleys) feet (plus a bit) so that I can fasten two brackets with sets of 4 nails to the wall at exact distances (measure once - use forever). Pics, when/if I get around to actually doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru4tru Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Hi Howard, Thanks for rescuing from the “KCB” (Kite Censoring Brigade)!! === Hi Jeepster, Funny comment on the DIY!! heehee!! === Hi Pete, You lost me! What the hell am I looking at?!?! === Keep It Up! Duane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--Pete Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 Hi Pete, You lost me! What the hell am I looking at?!?! The tunnel (under construction in 1999 or 2000) where I hope to set up a rig for making line sets with no wind or even drafts to disturb the process. If you look at my location on the MemberMap, it goes from the house to the building to the west. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgewarden Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 - are lines measured with the end loops, or measured before loops. After looping! Right? ... Yes, including the loops. If you can just loop the ends over nails which are xxx feet apart, you have xxx foot lines. I am getting inspired. I have a LONG, straight, well-lighted concrete wall in a 4 foot by 8 foot by 106 foot tunnel: Wow, I thought I was lucky having an RV garage a bit over 40' long. I placed large cup hooks on the rear wall and a side wall measured to 40 ft. At that distance, it is a snap to measure 120' lines, 80' lines, and pairs of 100' lines (or cut in half - quad 50' lines). However, I do have to remember to add the appropriate extra length for the sleeved loops, and an inch or so for each knot. The base loop is of course free (of computational complications.) After that, it depends on how many scotches I had the knight befor. But tunnel! Now my early efforts I tried to use kite stakes in the yard, and I forgot about the loops. Hence the original short 120' line set. Regarding the convenient spools of 333yd or so, Theresa at the Kite Shoppe still carries these. I haven't checked the other major sources - Kite Connection, Into the Wind, and the other great advertisers on KiteLife. But my advice to those seriously attracted to group/team flying, the 333 yd or 1000 ft spools are definitely more attractive than 900 ft (300 yd) spools. (2 line sets * 4 lines/set * (120 ft + 2*0.5 ft loop/line = 968 ft or 322 yd --- and add a few inches for each line for the knots.) As for the 12 step, Pete, --- I hereby declare myself way too old to change my ways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru4tru Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 Nice tunnel Pete!! heehee! You've gotta be insane...you built that tunnel to make line sets in...and then you made it too short to do 120's. Yep, you'll save on money there!?!? heehee! =================== I've decided to only ever make 120' line sets. I fly with 120', 100' & 80' line sets normally. My experience with my first line set getting worn out has shown me some things. First off that it doesn't ware out in the center, so it should be rotated to get the most out of it. And after both sides get worn to the point of feeling like sandpaper when I fly, I'll just cut 20 feet (minus half the loop size) off one end and make 100 footers out of them. The contact points of where the line crosses will be moved 20 feet from the worn area and it should be like new again. Then I'll rotate that untill it's worn out and then cut it down to 80 feet and start again with "like" new line at the line crossing area. Hey, at $100, plus shipping, for 999ft. I'll "Cut and Paste" as long as I can!! heehee!! Keep It Up! Duane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
--Pete Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 Nice tunnel Pete!! heehee! You've gotta be insane...you built that tunnel to make line sets in...and then you made it too short to do 120's. Yep, you'll save on money there!?!? heehee! My wife thinks the place should be called "Wahnsinn" (that's German -- get it translated). (Sounds like VAHN- s'n.) I actually chose the tunnel length to allow for a 25 yard indoor shooting range. Wasn't even thinking about linesets, much less the "new" standard team length. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru4tru Posted March 11, 2011 Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 Hi Pete, Hmmmm...(indoor shooting range...???) Hey Pete!! That was a great idea!! My hat is off to you for your excellent thinking!! And I didn't say you were "insane"...and if I did...I was just joking!! heeheeheehee!! Keep It Up! Duane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reef Runner Posted March 11, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2011 I've decided to only ever make 120' line sets. I fly with 120', 100' & 80' line sets normally. And after both sides get worn to the point of feeling like sandpaper when I fly, I'll just cut 20 feet (minus half the loop size) off one end and make 100 footers out of them. Then I'll rotate that untill it's worn out and then cut it down to 80 feet and start again with "like" new line at the line crossing area. Hey, at $100, plus shipping, for 999ft I'll "Cut and Paste" as long as I can Hey Duane, This could be the first brilliant idea, you've come up with, in a long time, and it actually makes half-way, good sense ! Here's to you................ It's 5 o'clock somewhere ps............and Pete's probably already in the wine celler, anyway !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guru4tru Posted March 12, 2011 Report Share Posted March 12, 2011 This could be the first brilliant idea, you've come up with, in a long time, and it actually makes half-way, good sense ! Thanks Nick, But you worded it correctly with "could be" & "half-way, good sense"! I haven't done it yet, just expressing my intentions. And I figure with the line sets I already have made up..."times" my age..."times" how long it takes to wear a line set out...I'll probably be long dead before I know the answer!! heehee!! But, I'm taking my kites, and line sets, with me...so don't get any ideas!! Like when the ancient Egyptian Pharoahs died they put all the stuff they would need in the tomb with them...even their cat ! But, so that their are no tomb robbers...I'm being cremated with all my stuff, except my cat Mel...he'll have to catch up later if he out lives me! heehee!! Keep It Up! Duane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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