Wayne Dowler Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 A question to you then, when you were using your initial method of of 2 holders, how many times did you wind up with any type of tangle when setting the kite up? Just for clarity... Are you asking about twists (spins in the line) or tangles (tightened loops around loops)? Different animals, totally different causes - might help the discussion to be fairly specific about this aspect. The few times that I used the 4 line winding method, I had twists, and tangles, both. The third time I tried it, I was almost to the point of throwing the resulting tangle of lines in a trash can and getting a new set... I must have walked back and forth for over a 1/2 hour and finally got each line separated from the others, one at a time, before winding them all together. I admit , this was most probably due to not being careful enough in winding and unwinding and the mistakes that could be made doing either of both incorrectly, although I tried to follow the tutorial step by step. The next thing I did was to read forum posts some posters difficulties with 4 line winding and unwinding, and I saw that some other folks also had problems. Some posters even mentioned using two holders or winding the line on the two separate handles. A couple of posters even mentioned that they gave up flying four lines, because of the line hassle factor. This is what got me to thinking about my experience with 2 lines at a time, with zero problems. I tried to pinpoint why the 2 lines at a time method for a quad, would be problematic in any way, and couldn't think of any negative, other than having to get another line holder, and one more trip from the stake to the kite. I then decided that a comparison between the two methods might be interesting, and I could prove to myself which method would be more efficient " for me". I am going to give the 4 lines at a time method some sufficient practice, to make sure I am not making any possible mistakes, and giving it a fair chance. Then I will try the two line method, compare problems, and time spent, and then figure out which one I will adopt. The ultimate goal I want to achieve, is unroll my lines, hook them to the kite, pick up the handles, and fly. I always like experimenting... Now if I can just figure out how to keep the earphone cords on my Android phone from getting tangled up in my pocket. I'm going to guess that if you had taken a pair of lines in each hand and opened your arms into a cross position, most of that would have come right out!!! I had a team member with the same issue of what he thought were tangles and an hour of set up in front of him! Could hear him cussing before he even got started!! I grabbed his lines, separated them and POOF, the twists, tangles were gone!! Looked at me like a magician or something!! It really can be easy!! PS: on the earphone problem - I use "behind the neck" earphones!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reef Runner Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 Always looks worse, than it really is. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkrinor Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 A question to you then, when you were using your initial method of of 2 holders, how many times did you wind up with any type of tangle when setting the kite up? Just for clarity... Are you asking about twists (spins in the line) or tangles (tightened loops around loops)? Different animals, totally different causes - might help the discussion to be fairly specific about this aspect. The few times that I used the 4 line winding method, I had twists, and tangles, both. The third time I tried it, I was almost to the point of throwing the resulting tangle of lines in a trash can and getting a new set... I must have walked back and forth for over a 1/2 hour and finally got each line separated from the others, one at a time, before winding them all together. I admit , this was most probably due to not being careful enough in winding and unwinding and the mistakes that could be made doing either of both incorrectly, although I tried to follow the tutorial step by step. The next thing I did was to read forum posts some posters difficulties with 4 line winding and unwinding, and I saw that some other folks also had problems. Some posters even mentioned using two holders or winding the line on the two separate handles. A couple of posters even mentioned that they gave up flying four lines, because of the line hassle factor. This is what got me to thinking about my experience with 2 lines at a time, with zero problems. I tried to pinpoint why the 2 lines at a time method for a quad, would be problematic in any way, and couldn't think of any negative, other than having to get another line holder, and one more trip from the stake to the kite. I then decided that a comparison between the two methods might be interesting, and I could prove to myself which method would be more efficient " for me". I am going to give the 4 lines at a time method some sufficient practice, to make sure I am not making any possible mistakes, and giving it a fair chance. Then I will try the two line method, compare problems, and time spent, and then figure out which one I will adopt. The ultimate goal I want to achieve, is unroll my lines, hook them to the kite, pick up the handles, and fly. I always like experimenting... Now if I can just figure out how to keep the earphone cords on my Android phone from getting tangled up in my pocket. I'm going to guess that if you had taken a pair of lines in each hand and opened your arms into a cross position, most of that would have come right out!!! I had a team member with the same issue of what he thought were tangles and an hour of set up in front of him! Could hear him cussing before he even got started!! I grabbed his lines, separated them and POOF, the twists, tangles were gone!! Looked at me like a magician or something!! It really can be easy!! PS: on the earphone problem - I use "behind the neck" earphones!! It seemed last year when I started I was always on 50 lbs,and had a heck of a time with those thin little boogers. I agree that majority of the time the tangles and twist look worse than they actually are...but when just learning to set up, they look really bad. Fighting lines seems to be extra frustrating because of the anticipation of flying, but forced into groundwork. As the experience of setting up and take down grows I am able to see details that I didn't know about just starting out. Also, the embarassment factor came into play with my decision to use 2 winders. I would have folks stop to watch , but I would never get in the air..... I have only flown by myself and did not find Kitelife until I was ready to throw in the towel. So my decision to switch to 2 winders at the time I did was instrumental to me in sticking with it. I literally would drive 2 hours to the beach, untangle lines for 1 hour, crash and burn for and hour or 2, fight lines for a while more and drive 2 hours home..........then I found Kitelife 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reef Runner Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 Amen ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captainbob Posted February 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 A question to you then, when you were using your initial method of of 2 holders, how many times did you wind up with any type of tangle when setting the kite up? Just for clarity... Are you asking about twists (spins in the line) or tangles (tightened loops around loops)? Different animals, totally different causes - might help the discussion to be fairly specific about this aspect. The few times that I used the 4 line winding method, I had twists, and tangles, both. The third time I tried it, I was almost to the point of throwing the resulting tangle of lines in a trash can and getting a new set... I must have walked back and forth for over a 1/2 hour and finally got each line separated from the others, one at a time, before winding them all together. I admit , this was most probably due to not being careful enough in winding and unwinding and the mistakes that could be made doing either of both incorrectly, although I tried to follow the tutorial step by step. The next thing I did was to read forum posts some posters difficulties with 4 line winding and unwinding, and I saw that some other folks also had problems. Some posters even mentioned using two holders or winding the line on the two separate handles. A couple of posters even mentioned that they gave up flying four lines, because of the line hassle factor. This is what got me to thinking about my experience with 2 lines at a time, with zero problems. I tried to pinpoint why the 2 lines at a time method for a quad, would be problematic in any way, and couldn't think of any negative, other than having to get another line holder, and one more trip from the stake to the kite. I then decided that a comparison between the two methods might be interesting, and I could prove to myself which method would be more efficient " for me". I am going to give the 4 lines at a time method some sufficient practice, to make sure I am not making any possible mistakes, and giving it a fair chance. Then I will try the two line method, compare problems, and time spent, and then figure out which one I will adopt. The ultimate goal I want to achieve, is unroll my lines, hook them to the kite, pick up the handles, and fly. I always like experimenting... Now if I can just figure out how to keep the earphone cords on my Android phone from getting tangled up in my pocket. I'm going to guess that if you had taken a pair of lines in each hand and opened your arms into a cross position, most of that would have come right out!!! I had a team member with the same issue of what he thought were tangles and an hour of set up in front of him! Could hear him cussing before he even got started!! I grabbed his lines, separated them and POOF, the twists, tangles were gone!! Looked at me like a magician or something!! It really can be easy!! PS: on the earphone problem - I use "behind the neck" earphones!! It seemed last year when I started I was always on 50 lbs,and had a heck of a time with those thin little boogers. I agree that majority of the time the tangles and twist look worse than they actually are...but when just learning to set up, they look really bad. Fighting lines seems to be extra frustrating because of the anticipation of flying, but forced into groundwork. As the experience of setting up and take down grows I am able to see details that I didn't know about just starting out. Also, the embarassment factor came into play with my decision to use 2 winders. I would have folks stop to watch , but I would never get in the air..... I have only flown by myself and did not find Kitelife until I was ready to throw in the towel. So my decision to switch to 2 winders at the time I did was instrumental to me in sticking with it. I literally would drive 2 hours to the beach, untangle lines for 1 hour, crash and burn for and hour or 2, fight lines for a while more and drive 2 hours home..........then I found Kitelife Why did you have problems using 2 winders? Seems pretty impossible to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Dowler Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 Please take all of this as suggestions, not gospel!! We've ALL been down the road of winding and it's messes! But those that really want to fly, figure it out for themselves!! Those that don't, won't! They give up, call it quits, chuck it!! It just takes practice (in any way you choose) to get it down to your science!! On the two winder method - still put a finger between lines! Keeps them separated as you lay them out!! And remember to still watch for "handle spin", it can put unwanted wraps in lines, really fast! You have a color coded set, so should be no issues at the kite end! And still remember to larkshead the pair together, even on 2 winders!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reef Runner Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 Why did you have problems using 2 winders? Seems pretty impossible to me... Whatever way you decide to use is good. Just don't give up............. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reef Runner Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 You got to quit trying to over-think this thing. Again, that little light bulb isn't going to go off, without a lot more days on the winder. In addition to just winding and un-winding, you also got to get into your head, which line you are lark's heading to which, and why, and why those ends, that are on the outside of the wound package are there, and why they are lark's headed, as they are (?), and where do they connect (?), to the handles, or to the kite. Once you get your system down pat, and OWN it, you'll never even have to think about this again. Really, this is just small stuff, but very necessary for a hassle free fly-day. Again, it's all manageable.............. and again......... good luck 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captainbob Posted February 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 I have a feeling that there will be quite a few people that will be really upset, if I decidedWhy did you have problems using 2 winders? Seems pretty impossible to me... People will be upset if you decided what ? Whatever way you decide to use is good. Just don't give up............. I was replying to something else, and that wasn't supposed to be on the top of that question that I asked. I corrected that post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reef Runner Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 I was replying to something else, and that wasn't supposed to be on the top of that question that I asked. I corrected that post. Sorry, we're just following along, and trying to help ....... (I corrected my previous post also) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGower Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 The beauty of this is you ask a simple question and because you are part of a forum with a lot of passionate flyers (and friends) with a lot of knowledge and experience you get a lot of responses YOU ARE NOT ALONE we have all been there and will help in any way we can. I love that I joined here and there is always someone willing to help with whatever problems I have. So welcome to the family 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tmadz Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 I say you'll find a system that just you are comfortable with. I started flying dualies before I recently picked up quads. My experience is that I always have one or a few twists in the line when unwinding 2-lines. When I started quads I first had some nasty tangles as well. I watched the videos, had a few more flying sessions and decided what was best for me. Being used to 2-lines, I unwrap/wrap 2 lines at a time. I tie the lines to one handle walk it out and then setup the kite. I attach the other two lines and walk it back to attach to the other handle. Some people may think I'm crazy, but I first started flying Revs in higher winds so this just seemed easier to me rather than 4 lines whipping around when I was setting up. Even after the video I ended up getting tangles and leaving the handles attached I had tangles. I figure I'm walking out and will have to walk back. I'm comfortable with it and I don't expect anyone else to understand. I would rather take a little longer laying out lines than have to untangle them. I figure with two lines you're decreasing the possible complexity of untangling by a square root. I may be goofy, but I'm still flying. Look at golfers swings. Most golfers do not have identical swings, but there sure are plenty of successful golfers that learned how to use their unique quirks to be successful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captainbob Posted February 13, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 I say you'll find a system that just you are comfortable with. I started flying dualies before I recently picked up quads. My experience is that I always have one or a few twists in the line when unwinding 2-lines. When I started quads I first had some nasty tangles as well. I watched the videos, had a few more flying sessions and decided what was best for me. Being used to 2-lines, I unwrap/wrap 2 lines at a time. I tie the lines to one handle walk it out and then setup the kite. I attach the other two lines and walk it back to attach to the other handle. Some people may think I'm crazy, but I first started flying Revs in higher winds so this just seemed easier to me rather than 4 lines whipping around when I was setting up. Even after the video I ended up getting tangles and leaving the handles attached I had tangles. I figure I'm walking out and will have to walk back. I'm comfortable with it and I don't expect anyone else to understand. I would rather take a little longer laying out lines than have to untangle them. I figure with two lines you're decreasing the possible complexity of untangling by a square root. I may be goofy, but I'm still flying. Look at golfers swings. Most golfers do not have identical swings, but there sure are plenty of successful golfers that learned how to use their unique quirks to be successful. Exactly, my feeling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reef Runner Posted February 13, 2014 Report Share Posted February 13, 2014 Ditto Be the "Jim Furyk" of kiting ! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbailey49 Posted February 14, 2014 Report Share Posted February 14, 2014 Just my opinion, but there seems to be a bit of paralysis by analysis going on. I use JB's method. I wrap in a figure 8 pattern. My handles always stay attached. I don't care which is left and which is right. I put a stake in the ground, I put my handles on the stake (bottoms towards the kite), I put my finger through the hole in the winder, I walk to the kite letting the line come off, I attach the long ones to the trailing edge, and the top ones to the leading edge (the loops for the top are larksheaded to the loops for the bottom a la the JB video). I walk back to the handles, pick them up, maybe a couple of twists, maybe a handle needs to be pulled through, and within 30 seconds I am flying 99% of the time. Is it the best way? It's the best way I have found for me. Are there other ways? Certainly, and if they work better for you, do it that way. The key is to figure out what works best for you, not worry about everyone else, and get that kite flying. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makatakam Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 I try to use the "hey, can you set up my kite? I gotta go to the washroom" technique as often as possible, and it works very well for me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkrinor Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 I try to use the "hey, can you set up my kite? I gotta go to the washroom" technique as often as possible, and it works very well for me. One of the perks of flying in solitude.... I guess that I never appreciated until you mentioned the washroom technique .... is being able to just pee on the beach 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swannie Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 You got to quit trying to over-think this thing. Again, that little light bulb isn't going to go off, without a lot more days on the winder. Agreed with this, the first dozen times I flew quad (I was new to kites in general as well) I had one *hell* of a time with tangles. After unwinding I'd spend another hour or two untangling and then be ready to fly ... or more accurately (at the time), crash. I re-watched JB's video a few times and then one day, it just started working. I wish I could tell you what I started doing differently but I honestly don't think I *WAS* doing anything different. The key seems to be ensuring that when you unwind you're doing the EXACT reverse of what you're doing when winding. The other trick I figured out (I don't recall if it was in JB's video or not) is after I made it down to the kite end, I took a pair of lines in each hand, pulled them tight against the handles/kite stake on the other end and spread my arms far apart. This will move any small mess down to the handle end where it's easier to see. It also will pull out (most) false tangles. Lastly, if you've got a lot of twists, try and get the ones out where the pairs of lines are wrapped around each other. These are the ones that you would put the handles together and spin them around as a pair to get out. I often start at the kite and and spin the kite around like one of those flag dancers. Sometimes it looks like the lines are threaded together (where you'd take a handle and thread it through the other handle's lines) but they're not, and although it's tempting to do this you'll make a bigger mess for yourself. Wait until you have as much of the first type of twist out before tackling the second, threaded, type of tangle. ... that's a difficult thing to explain, so I hope that made sense. I've only been flying for about 1.5 years now and I'm usually setup in less then 5 minutes. I don't bother to keep the handles on the line either. I almost gave up after my first few flights, it's super frustrating to have two hours to fly and spend half that time just getting setup. I'm glad I stuck with it though! Swannie 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amexpmh Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 I think that JB pointed out one of the most common places where you get twists. When you finish winding do you let go of the ends before you secure them? And when you unwind do you let those ends dangle a bit before you secure them? In just a moment they will twirl around and add the twists. You may be doing everything else correctly but in those brief moments allow several twists to get into your set up. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reef Runner Posted February 15, 2014 Report Share Posted February 15, 2014 You got to quit trying to over-think this thing. Again, that little light bulb isn't going to go off, without a lot more days on the winder. Agreed with this, the first dozen times I flew quad (I was new to kites in general as well) I had one *hell* of a time with tangles. After unwinding I'd spend another hour or two untangling and then be ready to fly ... or more accurately (at the time), crash. I re-watched JB's video a few times and then one day, it just started working. I wish I could tell you what I started doing differently but I honestly don't think I *WAS* doing anything different. The key seems to be ensuring that when you unwind you're doing the EXACT reverse of what you're doing when winding. The other trick I figured out (I don't recall if it was in JB's video or not) is after I made it down to the kite end, I took a pair of lines in each hand, pulled them tight against the handles/kite stake on the other end and spread my arms far apart. This will move any small mess down to the handle end where it's easier to see. It also will pull out (most) false tangles. Swannie Great description Swannie.............I think that we have all been through that exact same process.............Their is NO perfect method, only manageable ones, but one day, it just all comes together........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reef Runner Posted February 16, 2014 Report Share Posted February 16, 2014 I think it's coming together for CB, based on his latest Rev flight report............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quaa714 Posted February 17, 2014 Report Share Posted February 17, 2014 On and off the field in 5 minutes.....wrap on your handles....done! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captainbob Posted February 19, 2014 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 While it's not the "only" way, the Line Management (tutorial) technique is foolproof when applied correctly, right or left handed, straight or figure eight wind. So are several other ways - the key is understanding them, finding one that works for you, and the real key, eliminating the variables. The act of winding itself does not create the "end result" twists, those come from all the little variables in-between... - when you paired the right lines (top/bottom), did they go around each other at all? - when you put the pairs together, did you put one through or around the other? - when you picked up your handles, did they spin or go through each other? - when you handled your winder throughout the process, did you rotate it at all? - when you first set up, did your handles pass through or spin around? - when you first set up, did the R/L pairs (kite end) go through or around each other? - etc, etc, etc. The real key again, is picking a consistent method that works for you, with an eye on all the variables listed above. For the record, I almost *always* have at least 2-3 twists in one direction and possibly one handle pass-through, all easily taken out in a minute or less. Main thing for me, I just don't let the ends "bounce around" at all. Tried you method, and looked at this post to look for things that I may have been doing wrong, and it seems my problems are over. Last two times I set the Rev up, I had no problems with the lines, using the 4 line method on your tutorial... Thanks.... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reef Runner Posted February 19, 2014 Report Share Posted February 19, 2014 Progress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Barresi Posted March 5, 2014 Report Share Posted March 5, 2014 Awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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