A Revolutionary Morning

[Skyclad01]

I have just returned from the park not long ago from my maiden flight. Sadly, it was extremely discouraging. Despite having watched many tutorials on youtube and reading many posts on kitelife and the revolution forum for the past 2 weeks, I just could not get the kite to cooperate with me at all. Set up was easy, but when it came to getting it in the air, the kite just wanted to do its own thing. 2 hours in the park and about 15% of that time was spent trying to keep the kite in the air and the other 85% was spent walking back and forth to the kite to set it back up again,

It seemed to keep wanting to fly and rotate to the right despite any input I gave either handle. Now I know that when it starts going to one side, you pull back on the handle of the high wing, but that didn't really seem to faze it much. And when it didn't rotate or fly to the right, there just seemed to be very little I could do to control it. The controls were just so very sensitive that just a quarter inch pull on either handle, or having my hands unbalance in any way would pretty much send it off on its own direction and would end up landing on the leading edge 99% of the time.

Twice, I even had to hand rotate the kite to get the twists out of the lines. Not once was I able to just launch the kite up and bring it back down. After those 2 hours, the lines were wound yet again. I tried hand turning the kite to get the twists out, but im not sure if that helped or made it worse. Either way, the winds were picking up and the sky was getting too cloudy for comfort. So I detached the lines from the kite and from the handles, staked one end and spent 45 mins untangling the lines. Unfortunately with the clouds and the wind, it just got too cold to be out there any longer, so I wound up the lines and broke the kite down and went home. I'm guessing next time I go to the park to fly the Rev, that I still have another 45 mins of untangling left before I actually get to fly it again.

I am very discouraged and believe that learning how to fly a helicopter would be much easier by far! About the only positive note I have is that there has been no damage to the kite, no rods broken and the lines, despite being tangled at the moment, are still in good shape. Normally I don't get discouraged like this. I stay positive and determined and push through. Now I know this is my first time with a Rev, and I know a lot of the problems were due to me. But having such a hard time flying to this extent almost makes me wonder if its just me, or if theres a problem with the kite, or both?

[Paul LaMasters]

I wish I could assure that these events will NEVER take place again. For now as bad as this sounds, we the readers will assume you are the problem and not the kite.

If the kite only wants to turn one way and the controls are not "neutral" feeling, then something is screwed-up with the bridle, or the flying lines or the leaders.

The frame down-tube sticks go on the back (behind the sail) and the bridle is on the front. Pick up the kite by the top two attachment points only,.... all the bridle legs should be tight

Stake down the lines each one affixed to a handle point and all four meeting at the fence post or a well-placed stake in the soil. No tangles, no nesting all pulled from the exact same point, TIGHT,.... if the handles do not align perfectly you need to make adjustments.

Notice, there's lots of effort here and you still are not even attached to the kite? All this prep-work is how you tame the beast. I spent two years with your frustration level before I knew you could adjust the darn thing!

OK, so the lines are even and the handle align so well you feel like its "winning lotto numbers coming your way from on high" day. Now turn the kite inverted (resting on the ground) with a slight handle movement (less is more!) point your thumbs towards the kite and then slowly walk backwards. You goal is the kite backing up and then holding that position (STOP/stationary hover) and then returning to the ground again S_L_O_W_L_Y, all the while the kite is leading edge down. If it will not back-up, then you need to add leaders to the handles, with a series of knots closely spaced together (1/2 inch or less between). The top leaders need to get longer and-or the bottoms need to get shorter (the flying line is moved closer to the bottom attachment point on the handle) You are after a difference of 3 to one, (future piloting days this proportional difference will get even greater still). If I were to equate this to driving, you are on a slippery gravel covered slope on a steep grade with no guard rails. As you drive you have one foot and sometimes both feet on the brake. You only allow the vehicle move as far as you want, you are not reacting but instead controlling the movement with braking action.

Work on slight wiggles of your wrists, individually, opposite actions and in unison together are the only choices available. Imagine squeezing a pistol grip in your grasp, vs. pushing with your thumb forward (both actions are effecting the bottom lines, guess what? That's where all the control and those cool tricks hide,... Right down there behind those brake lines!

I'm not asking you to work on how fast you can race to the top of the window in forward drive mode. No, work on a stationary hover and get extremely comfortable with the kite inverted inches above the ground.

Find a mentor and make the effort to seek assistance from other pilots. I wish I could just hand you my handles so you could feel how easily these kites can be handled when everything is as it should be.

Don't get discouraged,.... check your lines, (alignment of handles confirmed?) insure the bridle is not wrapped around a spar or in some manner tangled during set-up, got enough "DOWN" in the tuning to back-up?

Now for conditions,... you want a nice steady and SMOOTH predictable wind right in the middle of the kite's wind range, without bunch of crap surrounding your area to distract you.

Try something for a few minutes, then stop and think about those actions. Then try again. The kite won't even be huge fun until it flies itself without conscious thought on your part!

There's always something new to work on or experience for the first time and you will not get sick of flying Revs. To date I have flown them for 11,440 hours (22 years, ten hours a week) and I still come home with my face hurting from all the smiles during the day.

Try again, it will get easier.

If you want a easy way to control your set-up try a different method for line management, two winders, winding up on each handle separately, winding around both handles, wind two lines on a winder and then two more on top of those first 2.

[makatakam]

It would be difficult for anyone to give you much help remotely. I can tell you for a fact that I, and most other Rev flyers, have gone through exactly that same level of frustration while learning to fly a quad, especially if learning it on your own. 45 minutes is not bad compared to the mess I untangled a few times at the beginning. And the kite going wherever it wanted to, with the feeling of having no control over it is a place I know only too well. I learned mostly on my own, and I can sympathize with the way you feel right now. Stay with it, don't let the kite get the better of you. It all falls into place with time, and the rewards are sooooo sweeeeet!

I recommend going to kite fests, and/or finding an experienced flyer near you. I mean within a 3 to 4 hour drive, and meeting up with them. Absolutely worth the time and expense to get hands-on help. It will cut years off the learning curve! Until I joined the IKE (Illinois Kite Enthusiasts) Club and forum (local for me) I spent many dozens of hours just to get some basic control. Once I met up with them regularly for club flys, my progress improved dramatically. Look around; there is probably a club or individuals within reach. I cannot stress enough that you should seek out others to help you.

If you have to learn on your own, watch the "line management", "setup & breakdown", and "basic control" tutorials until you are sick of them, and then watch them several more times. Consider them "Gospel"; John Barresi is the king of quad, and it will serve you well observe and listen closely.

As far as the lines and kite are concerned -- Check that all four lines are of equal length, within 1/4" of each other. If they are not, watch the "line equalization" tutorial. Check that the bridle is not twisted or tangled, either around itself or the endcaps, and that all of its segments are symmetrically identical. Adjust as necessary. (Hint: you can shorten longer segments by tying an overhand knot in it) Also, very basic, but sometimes overlooked, the uprights go on the back of the kite. Please excuse me, if you are already aware of this, not intended as an insult or mockery. Barresi actually sold his first Rev after the frustration of trying to fly it with the rods on the front, ha ha! Really, not kidding.

Hang in there, don't give up. The ultimate satisfaction of mastering this beast greatly outweighs the initial frustrations!

Good Luck. If you need help or advice on anything, let us know by posting here. Kiters are a friendly bunch, and we will do everything we can to help.

Edit: P.S. -- Everything Paul just said. I guess he was typing at the same time I was.

[Skyclad01]

As far as I could tell, everything was attached evenly and nothing was twisted, rods were attached to the back of the kite. I will double check the bridle as best as I know how and one I get the line untangled, I will check to make sure those are all even.

I was able to launch from the ground. A couple times I even made it to the top of the wind window for a second. But at no point was there ever a feeling of neutral balance in the kite at all. I was hoping to go out there and be able to launch the kite straight up and bring it right back down and have that mastered within 30 minutes or so. Sadly, with 2hrs time, that never happened.

[SHBKF]

I spent my first session attempting to fly a Revolution SLE in ideal beach conditions in early December. Got the lines unwound & then found the kite bridle was not attached to the bottom of the kite. Figured that out pretty quickly & noted that the lines could be twisted at each attachment point or coming off the wrong side of the connector. I made a few changes to get all bridle lines leading off the connectors toward the center of the kite to achieve best bilateral symmetry. Turned out that was a good thing. So I go to the handles, step back & pull somewhat evenly. The wing rises about ten feet, spins clockwise & crashes to the right. Hey, I can do a propeller spin! So I repeated that sequence over & over. I persisted for an hour, packed up, got in the camper & headed home to the mountains. Did not try again for about a month due to the holidays, work & sketchy weather. But I did make extended knotted upper leaders in the mean time. So early January I try again. Launch, fly up about twenty-five feet, veer to the right, fly off the edge of the window & flutter/crash to the ground. See below images. Especially notice the bad form with the right arm extended & the left pulled back. A week later the third session is the ah ha moment. I draw on my experience of flying quad foils to finally realize that for me the key to sustained early flight was gently steering with the brakes. I could finally fly back & forth across the window without unplanned "landings". Everything else took a bit longer but that was just part of the journey. The later rewards were far greater than the early session's struggles. In fact I look back on those early flights fondly these days.

Ready to launch

Airborne flying straight up for a bit.

Veering to the right to the crash landing - I'm right handed.

But I'm just a Solo Hill Billie Kite Flailer

[Wayne Dowler]

Which model Rev did you get??

PS: looked over old threads - looks like an EXP? First thing - make some knotted longer top leaders for the handles. Use decent bridle line and make them about a foot long, with knots around a inch apart. Try letting the top lines out about halfway, maybe a knot more. You are trying to find that "neutral" we're talking about. You know you've found it when the kite doesn't just go off at any and every gust of wind. Rather, it's waiting for you to give it a command, forward or back, left or right. Over on the Rev forum you should find a subject - "my leaders, your thoughts?". Has pix of what we are talking about.

During setup - check all the line attachment points to be sure they are completely clean, coming off the rest of the bridle. A twist here or there makes all the difference, making that line seem shorter than the rest and causing the kite to have a mind of it's own.

Found the link: http://www.revkites.com/forum/topic/4409-my-leaders-your-thoughts/ give it a look see.

[Skyclad01]

The EXP

[Wayne Dowler]

Simple exercise - launch 10' or so high - stop - land back on tips evenly if possible. Do it at least 10 times in a row. Next try 15' or so. Same thing, stop and pause, then land. You're developing a feel for how the sail works in the wind. Get it that high? Try higher, but still maintain that control over the kite.

Small starts.

[makatakam]

Hang tough, you'll get it.

[Skyclad01]

Simple exercise - launch 10' or so high - stop - land back on tips evenly if possible. Do it at least 10 times in a row. Next try 15' or so. Same thing, stop and pause, then land. You're developing a feel for how the sail works in the wind. Get it that high? Try higher, but still maintain that control over the kite.

Small starts.

That was all my plan this morning, but every time the kite got about half way up, the kite would start to veer to one side (to the right mostly). A couple of times I made it all the way up to the wind window, then the kite would have a mind of its own and off it would go.

I've been talking in the chat room between reading all the replies here and have learned that I may have been flying using too much of the top lines. Now I know better than that, and know that I should be steering with the brakes, but with having flying only dualies up to now I may have been instinctively flying with the top lines only for the most part. As is known with a dualie, the only balance you need to know is to pull the lines equally. With a quad, you need to do that as well, but you also need to learn to fly equally with the bottom lines as well.

[Skyclad01]

Hang tough, you'll get it.

I may be discouraged right now, but I have no plans on quitting!

[Wayne Dowler]

Simple exercise - launch 10' or so high - stop - land back on tips evenly if possible. Do it at least 10 times in a row. Next try 15' or so. Same thing, stop and pause, then land. You're developing a feel for how the sail works in the wind. Get it that high? Try higher, but still maintain that control over the kite.

Small starts.

That was all my plan this morning, but every time the kite got about half way up, the kite would start to veer to one side (to the right mostly). A couple of times I made it all the way up to the wind window, then the kite would have a mind of its own and off it would go.

I've been talking in the chat room between reading all the replies here and have learned that I may have been flying using too much of the top lines. Now I know better than that, and know that I should be steering with the brakes, but with having flying only dualies up to now I may have been instinctively flying with the top lines only for the most part. As is known with a dualie, the only balance you need to know is to pull the lines equally. With a quad, you need to do that as well, but you also need to learn to fly equally with the bottom lines as well.

Don't go half way up - stop short of it and hold as long as you can, then back down, Try not to let the kite dictate to you, but you to the kite! Gradually increase the height as you successfully control a lower one!

[Skyclad01]

I'll give that a try on my next outing.

[dragonfish]

Now I know that when it starts going to one side, you pull back on the handle of the high wing, but that didn't really seem to faze it much.

Actually, not quite, unless I am interpreting your words wrong. If the kite is going to one side, let's say the right side, it has too much drive on the left side. So, you actually want to give brake on the left side, i.e. thumb down input. The "pull back" motion for most people will actually pull top of the handle back, when you really want to be pulling the bottom/pushing the top.

I also think you should double check the kite and lines for issues before you start blaming yourself. A lot of people have already posted on what you could check. I have one more thing to add: hidden unwanted knots in the bridle. This has happened to me at the pigtails in the bridle where you would connect the bottom lines, but I suppose it could happen at the top too. Take a look at these pictures from the bottom line attachment pigtails. Can you tell the difference? Look really closely.

There should only be a single overhand knot that creates the pigtail. This is what you see in the picture at the left. The leg going toward the bottom of the picture goes to the end cap at the bottom tip of the kite. The leg going to the right continues to the crossover of the horizontal and vertical bridle legs.

In the picture on the right, there is an extra knot around the overhand knot. Basically, a loop was formed somewhere and the pigtail worked its way through the loop. The next picture shows the extra knot loosened up.

I've had this spontaneously happen to me some time in the process of breaking the kite down, storing it, and setting it up the next time. I set the kite up, took off, and immediately felt something was wrong. It kept pulling to one side. Neither I nor my teammates could figure out what was wrong on the field. I ended up pulling in the top line on that side a whole inch on my handle leaders to compensate and it still felt kind of funny (makes sense because now the lines were slightly shorter on one side). When I got home, I took the frame out of the kite, folded it in half, and started comparing everything right to left, focusing on the bridle. That was how I discovered the extra hidden knot. Now I check for it every time I set a kite up. It's amazing how much of a difference one small knot in the bridle can make. Once you know what you're looking for, it's pretty easy to spot.

[Skyclad01]

Now I know that when it starts going to one side, you pull back on the handle of the high wing, but that didn't really seem to faze it much.

Actually, not quite, unless I am interpreting your words wrong. If the kite is going to one side, let's say the right side, it has too much drive on the left side. So, you actually want to give brake on the left side, i.e. thumb down input. The "pull back" motion for most people will actually pull top of the handle back, when you really want to be pulling the bottom/pushing the top.

Yeah, that was my bad out there. I should have known better and pull back on the brake, not on the drive of the handle.

I just checked the bridle for any of those extra knots and didn't find any. So everything looks good there so far. Once I get the lines untangled, ill be checking the lengths of them to make sure they are all equal

[oapbillf]

How I wish I could spend a couple of hours by your side, alas distance prevents it !

In the meantime here is a link to a post on the Rev forum, look for my reply and to find links to Bridle

and Leaders.

Check them out and I hope they help.

If you need to travel to hook up with another Rev flier no matter how far then do it, it would be worth every penny to get a result !

I was lucky having "Stone in Shoe Bob" ( Rev Forum) as my first mentor along with members of " The Flying Squad "

as well as other Rev fliers, that saved me a lot of heartache !

Bill

[Skyclad01]

I think I may have the problem narrowed down now thanks to the good people in chat. Apparently in one Johns basic flying youtube tutorial, he mentions to keep your thumbs on the tops of the handles and your grip high on the foam. Normally thats a good hand position, but the problem with that in flying an EXP Revolution is that the handles it comes with doesn't have long leaders on it. So following his instructions was causing me to have too much drive and not enough brake on the kite while airborne. I found out that what I need to do is have my grip on the foam, closer to the curve of the handles.

So I will be giving that way a try next time I fly the rev. Hopefully that will give me much better control over the kite.

[SparkieRob]

Short term fix:

Take the leaders off the bottom of your handles and larks them to the last knot of your top leaders.

Attach your bottom lines directly to the hog clips on the bottom of your handles like the way you would with dual line straps.

Instant longer top leaders and more brake.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[makatakam]

Another way to go: If your top leaders are the standard Rev setup, that is, doubled over and knotted, untie all the knots. Form a two-inch loop in one end that will connect to the hog ring. Tie equally spaced knots starting about three inches out from the hog ring to the end of the leader about 3/4" apart. Voila! instant longer top leaders. Leave the bottom leaders as-is or tie one extra knot or two, if there is enough room, between the hog ring and the end of the leader. The leader is about 250# tensile strength. Your frame will snap before the leader does. You don't want to fly the EXP in wind over 15mph anyway.

[Skyclad01]

Today was a complete 180!

First of all, I want to say thank you to all those that have replied with hint, tips, suggestions and all other general help. A great bunch of people on this forum

Spent 4 hrs in the park today. The first hour was spent getting the tangles out of my line that I wasn't able to yesterday. Once I got them untangled, I made sure that all the lines were even (Thankfully they were). After that, I connected the lines to the kite and handles and this time, I took a lower grip on the foam closer to the curve of the handles and gave a tug. The kite went up and this time it felt like I had a little more control of the kite. Although it did crash back down, it did so without spinning haphazardly. I pulled back on the handles again and watched as the kite started to rise. I kept my hand even and balanced and slowly the kite rotated upright to which I gave another tug to the handles and watched the kite fly up. I gave a gentle tug to the brake of the handle and watched the kite rotate around and come back to the ground.

Luckily having experience with dualies, I knew to run forward a few steps to soften the crash landing. Gave a tug to both brakes and watched the kite rise again and rotate upright and fly upwards. Rinse and repeat a few more launches and careful crash landings for about 15 - 20 mins more and finally I had my first successful 2 point landing! A perfect launch straight up and a wobble back down in reverse to a gentle landing on its feet!!! I wanted to throw my hands up and cheer, but luckily quick thinking prevented that as I knew that would have unintentionally launched the kite back up into the air.

After that, I started to get a basic feel of the controls and with a lower grip on the stock EXP handles allowed me better control of the brakes. A few figure eights and mid air spins of the revolution and I was able to work on some dive stops as well. My flying isn't anything pretty and my dive stops aren't precisely on the dime, but I do have a basic knowledge of control now. Next few flights out and I will be working on hovering and quarter turns.

I certainly do look forward to flying my rev a LOT more now!

[makatakam]

Yay!!!!!

[Skyclad01]

Short term fix:

Take the leaders off the bottom of your handles and larks them to the last knot of your top leaders.

Attach your bottom lines directly to the hog clips on the bottom of your handles like the way you would with dual line straps.

Instant longer top leaders and more brake.

I used your suggestion and did that today. Though, instead of attaching the bottom lines directly to the hog rings, I had some line lying around (nothing proper, but its strong enough to work) and made 1" leaders for the bottom. and attached the stock bottom leaders to the top ones as you said and it worked pretty good. But for some reason for me, the leader was just way too long that way and the kite had too much brake. So I took off the extra leaders and flew with the stock top ones and 1" bottom ones I made and it really did improve performance! Rotations were easier, stops were a lot better, going in reverse (or at least practicing to) was much improved!

Thank you for this suggestion. Next up, eventually, I think I will contemplate Stone In Shoe Bob's no snag handle modification.

[Wayne Dowler]

Did you move your hands back up the foam some? Yes, short top leaders give you lift to launch, but longer will give you control as you fly. It takes a bit of getting used to, but at least you're on the right path!

[Skyclad01]

Did you move your hands back up the foam some? Yes, short top leaders give you lift to launch, but longer will give you control as you fly. It takes a bit of getting used to, but at least you're on the right path!

Yes. After changing to the short bottom leader, I had to move my hands higher so my thumbs were at the top of the foam. I've read and been told that longer top leaders helps a lot with keeping hovers more stable as well as better control, and it definitely did help.

[Wayne Dowler]

Think of long top leaders as giving you a "neutral" in your kite. Now you have to tell it to do something, not have it jump at every gust. Having that neutral will also help the hovering. Once you get in position to hover, having the neutral helps hold it! Now, any corrections are minor adjustments, rather than coarse movements.

Just for fun try putting the other leaders back on, and try flying. To launch - take a step back as you lock your wrists into forward drive. The step adds a little momentum to a pull and lock launch. Get used to some movement, flying isn't about being static (feet in cement), but flowing.