Line management suggestion

[p23brian]

Another bit of sailing knowledge that also seems to apply to kites.  Forgive me if you guys have all figured this out years ago.   Sailboats have lots of lines that have to be tended carefully to avoid tangles too.  And many of those lines are high-tech, un-stretchy, hideously expensive stuff just like kite lines. If you aren't careful when coiling a line you can introduce a half twist in it each time around, which makes for a messy coil prone to tangles and kinks.  I found myself doing exactly this when winding my kite lines onto the winder.  I had lark's headed the lines for each side together as John B. demonstrates in his tutorial, but I was twisting the two sides around each other unnecessarily.  I found that with the handles staked to the ground and slight tension on the lines as I winded them and some extra care not to twist them made a big difference.  The technique I used was to sort of pull the line around the winder with a hooked index finger rather than sliding it between thumb and index finger each time around.  If I had 2 or 3 extra hands to wind lines and run a video camera at the same time I'd try to make a little vid in case my description isn't clear.  

[SegelFlieger]

This is great to bring experience to the table, especially when similar technologies are concerned.  My similar experience is regarding the winding of long audio cables or wire which it is very important to remove the "twist" from the line when doing so or you will have a tangled mess and risk ruining the cables over time; no need to describe the technique to avoid a twist (I call it the roadie twist).  A well-used orange extension cable (not properly re-wound) comes to mind with the cork-screw funny shape at the trailing end.  I can't control how other "people" unwind and rewind it when they use the leaf blower .

However, with long kite lines a twist is deliberately introduced into all your lines as you wind your lines onto a card.  Hold the card in one hand and just twist all the lines around it as you walk towards your kite never moving the hand with the card.  It doesn't even matter if it is neat or not; but neat is nice .

Do not worry about lines overlapping each other.  When you unwind the lines you do it the same way, card in one hand and let the lines pay-off.  This untwists the lines.

Using this technique you may have some weird things happen when you have unwound your lines.  Pull tension to undo phantom twists caused by line compression in storage.  If you are flying with quad lines then determine if you have twists between line pairs; rotate your handles one way or the other to see if the twists get worse or better.  Once both line pairs have been separated then you may have twists in each line pair.  Using the same technique, rotate your handles until the problem is corrected.

All of this doesn't really take too much time.  The other problem that can occur is that one line pair has found itself inside the other line pair.  This is the weird problem.  In this case you just stake your handles with the kite under tension and work the tangle back to the handles.  Most times you can figure out what needs to be done but if you can't, undo the lines from one handle and work the tangle out, then reconnect the lines to your handle.

If you use this technique you should be able to set up or tear down your kite in 5 minutes or less.

Regards,

S.F.

[SparkieRob]

An extension lead gets that "curling" from being wound under tension. A lead that is looped into coils will never curl.

In respects to kite lines, I wind my lines on relatively laughs and messy. I have no dramas with twists when unwinding. Still don't have a proper technique for winding into the handles yet...


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[Edmond Dragut]

is not a perfect way to wind the lines without some tangles.Winding the lines you make a rotating movement around axes of lines creating a "tangle". you must just to pay attention when you line up the lines for fly. if the unwinding is to fast you will keep the tangling. after the lines are unwind take the sleeved parts (left to right and right to left) and with some tension on them open your arms.That will make the tangling created at winding to unwind themselves most of the times. you will still have some but nothing major. with time and experience you will find the way(your own) to wind and unwind the lines with minimal tangling. pay attention to do not push the handles one trout each other,that is the most annoying tangling.

 For you SegelFlieger try to wind any electrical cable,long rope or cable on this way. you will be amazed how easy and how clean the winding and unwinding will be 

 

[p23brian]

13 hours ago, Edmond Dragut said:

is not a perfect way to wind the lines without some tangles.Winding the lines you make a rotating movement around axes of lines creating a "tangle". you must just to pay attention when you line up the lines for fly. if the unwinding is to fast you will keep the tangling. after the lines are unwind take the sleeved parts (left to right and right to left) and with some tension on them open your arms.That will make the tangling created at winding to unwind themselves most of the times. you will still have some but nothing major. with time and experience you will find the way(your own) to wind and unwind the lines with minimal tangling. pay attention to do not push the handles one trout each other,that is the most annoying tangling.

 For you SegelFlieger try to wind any electrical cable,long rope or cable on this way. you will be amazed how easy and how clean the winding and unwinding will be 

 

A gasket coil is much more commonly used on a sailboat.  Looping the line in half isn't practical when one end is attached to something and you're coiling the tail to keep it neat.

 

[makatakam]

Yep, we all had the same issues until we got into our own groove. Watch the JB tutorial and observe that he does absolutely nothing special about the twists. That is because all the twists you put in the line while winding come out of the line when unwinding during set-up. One or two twists sometimes get into the lines if you're not careful to treat the two sides as a unit and begin to move them around individually. Once the kite is attached to the lines and staked down, tensioning the lines should make all the twists that appear to be there, disappear. Watch the way JB does it in the tutorial and consider it Gospel for now. Later you will develop your own variation to suit your style, and even if you don't you'll be 100% good doing it as shown in the video.

Once you have multiple lines and handles you may start leaving some of your handles attached to the lines when you break down. Without the additional time it takes to attach the lines to the knots on the handles, you can set up the kite in less than 3 minutes without even rushing.

[Wayne Dowler]

Get the order right - to the handles to wrap up, from the handles to setup (if you use a winder). If done the same, EVERY TIME, you start getting a rhythm to it. It is correct that each wind twists the line, each unwind takes that out. Some use a figure 8 wind, others a straight - doesn't make any difference.  Unwind from the handles and spread your arms out as wide as possible. This takes any false twists out and helps separate your lines into pairs. Hook up, go back to the handles, pull or twist to determine which is left or right, sort out. ALMOST NEVER will you have anything resembling a "PERFECT WIND"! It comes down to making it as easy as possible to get to clean, open lines. Done correctly it should  take no time to setup. The key is doing it the same EVERY TIME - make it a habit, get used to how you do it and how to straighten it out. Makes it much more fun on the flying field!

PS: with a few minor personal tweaks - JB's method is near foolproof!!

[SHBKF]

48 minutes ago, Wayne Dowler said:

"............... ALMOST NEVER will you have anything resembling a "PERFECT WIND"! It comes down to making it as easy as possible to get to clean, open lines. Done correctly it should  take no time to setup. The key is doing it the same EVERY TIME..............."

Only time I have ever experienced a perfect wind or rather a perfect unwind, was when I helped someone with their new ready to fly EXP package.  I unwound a little off winder & staked each pair into the sand.  I unreeled the lines off the winder just being careful to keep the winder flat in my left hand & pulling off line with my right as I walked upwind.  I tried not to twist the lines as I separated them & attached them to the handles.  Staked the handles down, walked back & assembled the kite.  It had a travel frame which was interesting as I had not seen one before.  After attaching the lines to the kite we turned it over & parked it leading edge down.  Back to the handles, picked them up, lines were perfect!  Backed the kite up launching into a gentle roll over & so it began.  Dang! it wasn't even my kite.  Loved it though.  SHBKF

[p23brian]

1 hour ago, Wayne Dowler said:

Get the order right - to the handles to wrap up, from the handles to setup (if you use a winder).

Yes, this is what I do.  Stake the handles down, walk to the kite, disconnect lines from the kite and wind back to the handles.

[John Barresi]

Take loops off the kite, pairing right to right, left to left, they then go on the winder - NOT HAVING ROTATED them.

Wind all the way to the handles, do a jig if you like, finish winding and pick up the handles so they DO NOT ROTATE and strap them onto the winder.

==

Unstrap winder and place handles on stake, again NOT HAVING ROTATED them more than 1-2 times naturally during handling.

Unwind (winder is rocking but not rotating) until you get to the end and carefully remove the loops so they DON'T ROTATE around each other.

==

Now draw hard tension into all four lines at the same time - what happens?

The ONLY place twists happen is when the ends go wonky - what you do in the middle is nearly irrelevant.

It's the simplest math, have faith.

[John Barresi]

By and by, I expect an average 1-5 twists to undo each time I set up.

Most times, it's more like 1-3.

[DrZettl]

I follow JB's method, but lately I am always ending up with one line from one side wrapped around the other pair. So i end up having to loop a handle through one side to unsnarl my line.

46 minutes ago, John Barresi said:

finish winding and pick up the handles so they DO NOT ROTATE and strap them onto the winder.

And after reading this, it occurred to me why this is happening. I am allowing the handles to rotate as I pick them up, and they're probably feeding through each other or getting tangled there.

[Wayne Dowler]

Some of my little twists:

I use 2 stakes. 1 for each handle and spread them apart 2' or more. After unwinding, I can pull some tension and usually untwist to come clean back to the handles.

I color code my handles. After a stroke, I've found that patterns help me keep things straight in my head. Along with that:

I color code all 4 lines. Again for those patterns that keep me straight. Right top, right bottom, left top, left bottom - each has its own color that makes sense to me. I use a Sharpie to color them.

This is an old one. but still works: I set my kite over my lines and lift the TE to expose the bridle. Kite is oriented in the way we fly, hook it up, step back to tension, invert to park. On the early VHS tape that came with a Rev, that was what was the prescribed way - stuck with me ever since. Except the inverting!! TY JB!

Because I always take my handles off, I push my larksheaded line up to the top, instead of the bottom of the knot on each pair. When I get done winding, I larks the pairs and can pull the slack out on the longer line.

Again - just my own little quirks on JB's method!

PS: I wasn't sure the method would work, so I started with a shorter set, figured out things, then started using longer  lines this way. Today I don't even think about it anymore - my routine is constant, controlled, but ALWAYS the same. NEVER let someone else wind your lines!!!! They're screwed up? Who's to blame? Do it yourself!!

[John Barresi]

35 minutes ago, DrZettl said:

And after reading this, it occurred to me why this is happening. I am allowing the handles to rotate as I pick them up, and they're probably feeding through each other or getting tangled there.

Aye, that'd be it - I end up with a single pass through about half the time, still takes less than 30 seconds for me to work out from the handle end.

[Edmond Dragut]

6 hours ago, p23brian said:

A gasket coil is much more commonly used on a sailboat.  Looping the line in half isn't practical when one end is attached to something and you're coiling the tail to keep it neat.

 

this is a great method for a short tick lines. in video presented by me they take the middle of the rope because the demonstration is for climbing ropes and the rope is 150 fits long. you may start from a convenient location for you no matter if one end is attached,on top of that and you will never have a tangle at unwinding   

[John Barresi]

End of the day, anything that gets you up in the air in 5-10 minutes without any stress is a good thing, regardless of how you do it.

[John Barresi]

Also relevant for quads, I have one set of handles for each set of lines I use regularly so I never have to take my handles off, this helps reduce variables for me too.

[SparkieRob]

And,
Whatever twists you put in winding up get unwound when unwinding.


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[John Barresi]

Yep, long as the ends (either) don't rotate around or pass through one another.

[p23brian]

On 1/1/2017 at 0:44 AM, John Barresi said:

Also relevant for quads, I have one set of handles for each set of lines I use regularly so I never have to take my handles off, this helps reduce variables for me too.

Hey, I do too!!  I have1set of handles and 1 set of lines.  

[John Barresi]

That's all it takes to make magic happen.