Want To Try Quad - Which One?

[Phil in Ottawa]

Hello all,

Last year I purchased a two-line kite (Skydog Freebird) and I've really enjoyed flying it. But here in Ottawa, I'm finding that the wind can be quite a headache. Either there is too little wind or it's too gusty or it's just plain too strong for my kite. As you can imagine, this does not make for ideal conditions nor does it offer a lot of learning/practice time. The other problem I'm having is that I have yet to find a local kite-flying community I can participate in to learn from and improve my skills. I'm finding trying to learn even basic tricks from videos quite difficult (especially when combined with less than optimum wind conditions).

So I've been doing some reading and I'm wondering if perhaps a quad-line Revolution kite might be a better option for me than a two-line kite. It appears that they work better in varying wind conditions (including low wind) which is what I need.  Would you agree?

So, if a Revolution would be better suited for a beginner (considering Ottawa wind conditions), my next question is which one to buy? I see EXP, 1.5, 1.5RX, B-Series, Reflex XX, Reflex RX. It's hard for me to decipher the differences between them just from reading specs. I've read various opinions. Some say the EXP does everything the others do at a lower price, so they are a good choice for a beginner. Others say the more expensive models are the way to go right off the bat because a beginner will quickly want to upgrade. So I'm confused.

What's your opinion? Should I go the quad route and which one should I get if I do?

Thanks for your help,

Phil

[JWharton]

Hi, I can't tell you which to buy but watch out those quads are addictive [emoji41]

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[Paul LaMasters]

quads can fly in any wind conditions, IF you have enough of a variety of them to match all those possibilities and some hours of experience in each.

Some like the Reflex models (I'd recommend the "Classic" as it offers both the reflex mechanism and enough control that "Oversteer" shouldn't become a BAD HABIT permanently) as they offer low/no wind performance without having to practice for a thousands of hours 1st.

My personal recommendation?  save you kite funds.  Go to a festival, fly a bunch of quad-lined kites as OPKs.  See which one tickles your fancy, acquire one and begin the process.  A coach, standing next to you during those beginning sessions, will save you thousands of dollars & wasted hours, as their kite will be perfectly tuned and framed for that very moment.  You don't want to read about it or watch it on a screen from your cell phone.  No, you want to FEEL it on the ends of the string!

Waiting for good wind means you will never master the crappy kind!  You should seek out poor locations (of high turbulence or zero wind), working upon your craft to master 'em all.  Quads are always placed into the worst possible spot on the festival grounds.  Why?, because they can overcome that obstacle better than other kite designs.

Come visit the Washington DC area and I will place a dozen kiters at your disposal, OPKs and instructional opinions aplenty to be enjoyed.  Remember this advise if nothing else.  "Take the best, dump the rest"  There are dozens of paths to your destination, there's not a single solution.  What feels the best to you?,.... why doesn't even matter.

[makatakam]

Hi, Phil, and welcome. I hope we can cross lines someday.

The first and most important thing you must know is that there is no such thing as a perfect kite. Each one is a compromise of various design elements tailored to fit a specific range of conditions. We all keep buying new and more, looking for that "perfect" design. It does not exist, and probably never will. If you don't believe this, you spend thousands of dollars and hours to prove it to yourself.

Now that you have all the basic information that you'll ever need, we can get down to business.

Which kite you buy depends entirely on the depth of your pockets. You can start with a thousand-dollar kite or a hundred-dollar kite. It will make no difference in the way the kite feels or flies for at least the first 100 hours, possibly many more, when you are learning the basics. Keep in mind that you WILL put an excess amount of wear on the kite you learn with, not enough to kill it, but noticeable. For this reason many beginners start with a used or otherwise inexpensive kite that they can beat up pretty well without worrying about it. You should concentrate on flying, instead of possible damage. Your first quad, unless you mostly have wind more than 15-mph in your area, should be a full sail. You will eventually seek out vented models that will expand the range of conditions in which you can fly. A standard (full) sail can be flown by an experienced pilot in wind from 2 to 20 mph, although wind over 15 makes it more work than fun. Your range at the beginning will be 6-12 mph, and will expand with time on the lines. This will be your "comfort zone" where you will actually be improving your skills, instead of fighting the wind.

The differences among the different models do not make one better than another, they only give each one different flight characteristics, which eventually you may like or not like. That's why starting out with something very basic (inexpensive also) like an EXP is a good decision. Once you have enough experience to appreciate the different flight characteristics of the available models (and sizes) you will be able to make an informed choice. Stay with the 1.5 format for your first sail.

Definitely get to some kite festivals and talk with the people flying their Revs and check some out. I would say, IMHO, That a 3-hour drive to get to one is well worth your time. You may even find someone who has one he can sell to you. Experienced guidance can save you many hours of frustration, and illustrate some of the little "tricks" that become second-hand, intuitive things with time.

Whatever you do, remember that kite flying is meant to be fun. Be safe. Stay away from trees, power lines, buildings and people. Most importantly, have fun, smile, and don't forget to breathe.

[Phil in Ottawa]

Thanks for the responses.

I'd really like to attend a kite festival but unfortunately there are none that I can find in my area. The closest is a good 4-5 hour drive away.

As far as which kite to buy, there's a kite shop in Canada where I can get a 1.5 SLE that comes with a 3 wrap UL frame and a bonus 4 wrap LE frame. The kit also upgrades the linesets to Shanti Warp Speed line. Does that sound like a good beginner kit? Someone here answered me in a PM and said that having multiple frames is good because it allows you to try and better match the wind conditions. So I think getting two frames for the price of one would be a good thing.

And as an aside, I think UL means "Ultra Light". But what does LE mean when talking about frames? What about SLE (as in 1.5 SLE)?

Thanks again.

 

[Wayne Dowler]

Rods are now identified by the # of feathers on the label, as well as the text description. 2 wrap frame = 2 feathers, 3 wrap = 3 feathers, etc. LE means Leading edge - the 3 pieces that form the long edge, not a complete frame! SLE was a descriptive term used for a different sort of LE - Super Leading Edge - fatter in diameter than the regular 1/4" rods (7/16" I think). Anyway not being used on logos anymore. A sail with that on it is older and been in stock a while. 

On the frame names - Professional Use only = 2 wraps, UL (ultra light) = 3 wraps, Rev equipped = 4 wraps. Race frames have a flame on the label.

[makatakam]

I started with an SLE standard sail, and still have it and fly it occasionally. In the eight years since that first kite I have acquired 13 other Revs, including some Speed Series, a full set of B-Pros including a matching Zen, an indoor Rev, Rev II, etc. I have also made some. My quiver holds about 20 Rev and Rev-like quads, and I find the right conditions each year to make each kite the right choice for that day. The SLE leading edge is larger diameter and very strong and stiff, which allows you to fly in strong winds, but strong winds will stretch the sail prematurely. Most experienced pilots seldom use them and jokingly refer to them as "tomato stakes", but they will handle wind which would immediately snap a 3-wrap frame.You will, if you stay in kite flying, eventually end up with at least three kites to handle what Mother Nature throws at you, that will allow you to fly comfortably in wind from 2 to 30 mph. If it's blowing faster than 30, have a beer instead.

Seriously, even if you have to drive 4 hours one way, do it at least once. There's a bunch of flyers in New York state area. If you get a chance to be in the area some time, look one of them up by posting up on this forum, and one of them will probably respond. 

 

[Paul LaMasters]

I flew quads alone for 1st two years,... guess what I discovered when I joined others? "you can adjust the kite's flight dynamics with tuning". WOW what a unique moment in time that was for me.  Free bonus?  Heck yeah, I made some new friends too.

I've watched others fly in zero wind and none of my kites would ever take off.  Man I gotta' know how to do that too.  Decades later? I own "no wind" now!  The technology has changed making this a much easier accomplishment to grasp.  There are kites specially deigned for this activity, only a visa card away!

I know it sounds unreasonable to drive hours and hours, not knowing a soul at the other end of the trail.  We almost all are willing to share our kites and the field with you though!  You can't get this input from any other method except by standing next to someone more knowledgeable and taking their best stuff as your own.

A couple of hundred bucks for travel may seem insane reading this, but it is certainly worth the expense when you look back upon the adventure later.  Way better than an extra kite, knowledge is power.

4 wraps in a full sail is kinda' useless unless you only have a single kite!  But you know there's time when this is a great choice (like the throw & catch trick).

In our local club we advise folks NOT to buy a kite for the first couple of years, instead come and use ours.  If you have to spend money, go buy a Gortex rain-suit for Alaskan Guide wear, get the proper shoes (to stand in ankle deep mud) and a hat, hoodie and some gloves.  Save you kite money, even if you have to eat ketchup sandwiches all summer.  Eventually you will know not only how to fly, but what features matter the most to you.  Then you can pull the trigger and not think about the cost, only the VALUE you've obtained from your purchase.  The cost is not important, only how to save your face from wrinkles as a constant smile will form there.

Go meet some other fliers and you can thank us afterwards.  Honestly, it is the best possible investment you can make to quickly and economically advance your skill-set

 

 

[Phil in Ottawa]

Thanks again for all the replies.

[SparkieRob]

I'll throw an option at you.

A secondhand B Series Standard (or Full Sail) with a Black Race frame.
Don't baulk at a secondhand Rev, they with fly well into a very worn sail. People upgrade or simply change desire and most pilots will have a sail that doesn't get much play. Ask if there is one out there. One thing about a used sail is you won't treat it with "kit gloves". The crashes won't worry you so much and you'll be that little bit more game to try something. One thing though. The B Series is out of production so may be a bit scarce. A 1.5 is almost as good. Even an EXP. But the Black Race frame is the bees knees.

Do be careful with quads. Don't know ANYONE that could stop at one....


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[Paul LaMasters]

Ha!, so true..... I've purchased 8 and sold 2 in just the last 30 days!

 

[eric67m]

6 hours ago, SparkieRob said:

Do be careful with quads. Don't know ANYONE that could stop at one.

 

Very true, from power foils to outdoor and indoor revolutions, quad kites are my favorite ways to be at the end of kite strings.  

The number of kites needed in your quiver is N+1.

[makatakam]

Oh, and by the way, UL does stand for UltraLight.   SUL=SuperUltraLight.   SLE=SuperLeadingEdge.  STD=Standard (or SexuallyTransmittedDisease, depending who you listen to).  MID=Midvent.   VTD=Vented (aka, full vent).  EV=ExtraVented.  Vicki=basically all vent, very little sail material (primarily used in howling winds) OPK=OtherPeoplesKites (what you fly before you buy). GMDHD=GimMeDatHotDog (just checking if you're paying attention). LPG=LaserProGold (line made of spectra fiber that most people use for quads). SS=Shanti Skybond, another premium line that plays well with others, fluorescent yellow in color. NSH=NoSnagHandles (this anagram is not used very often, but I've seen it a couple of times). I am not familiar with Shanti Warp Speed line. Quadline kite line, when new, should feel slick like Teflon, not waxy like dental floss, or rough like hemp rope. If it ain't slick, don't buy or use it. Again, it is one of those things that will cause you grief.

Other terminology that will become more meaningful as you gain experience: Hybrid Frame=mixing different tube strenghts in the LE, or LE and uprights, to induce quicker or slower response to and from a loaded sail. Response time=the relative amount of time it takes a frame member to return from flexed to straight, key to proper sail loading. Sail Loading=filling the sail with enough wind pressure to create the airfoil shape the sail requires to create lift. 

This is only the beginning, grasshopper. Depending on how involved you get and your level of obsession, you will become familiar with all, some, or none of the terminology. I have brought people into quad kiting who are perfectly content with just cruising around with the kite under control, and only being familiar with the basic moves. Others, like JB=JohnBarresi, are creating new terminology and moves each year. Wherever you fit in is exactly right for you, as long as you have fun, smile, and don't forget to breathe.

P.S. -- Don't overthink what you're doing. Feel what the kite is doing. Feel the wind pressure on the sail. Stay relaxed, take frequent breaks.

[makatakam]

3 hours ago, eric67m said:

Very true, from power foils to outdoor and indoor revolutions, quad kites are my favorite ways to be at the end of kite strings.  

The number of kites needed in your quiver is N+1.

I usually go N+2, so when one wears out . . . . .